increase corner speed?

[MackeyStingray]

okay now that i'm draggin my knee consistently through turns, how can i go even faster? feels very slow out there when i'm out and i'm sure i could go even faster. i feel more and more pressure on my knee when i drag.

i think all i'm doing is doing it for the sake of draggin, not as a guage of how fast i'm going anymore. looks cool but i want to be fast, not show off my ground down pucks.

i know i can lean alot farther but how will i know when it's too much? i've lowsided before but never pushing the limits and always just dumbass mistakes. i keep hearing 208GPs slid predictably but how will i know when they lose traction.

[dragonbro]

the top secret speed trick all the pros use is............just twist the right grip a little more! :laughing . sorry Calvin, just had to add a smartass reply to your worthy question. and congrats on draggin your knee (on purpose)!

[morthrane]

Originally posted by MackeyStingray

i know i can lean alot farther but how will i know when it's too much? i've lowsided before but never pushing the limits and always just dumbass mistakes. i keep hearing 208GPs slid predictably but how will i know when they lose traction.

Hrm, my guess is that you'll know without any question that you've lost traction :laughing (I guess the trick is not losing it for good ;))

Question I have for you guys, does lean really determine cornering/lap speed? I mean, in a sense wouldn't it help more to work on corner entry/braking/downshifting and pushing back limits slowly, and letting the lean come naturally?

This makes me think of another point... as you become faster and consequently uses even more aggressive lean angles, do you have to consciously change your throttle habits?

[MackeyStingray]

heh, easier said than done man :p

i thought i hit a plateau before the CCS 10/4 trackday until someone showed me around and kept upping the pace. now i'm feeling that same plateau again after the SSA trackday. just kinda toolin around out there. fun and all but doesn't feel like i'm improving.

hehe, and when i was a noob squid, it was my goal to drag knee. :D now, while it feels good, doesn't really need to be done. cheap bastid in me wants me to save dem' pucks so i don't need to start lookin' for em.

so back to the lean angles thing, are there any cues i should look for to know when i'm leaning too far? :confused.

[magyarbetyar]

Originally posted by MackeyStingray
i thought i hit a plateau before the CCS 10/4 trackday until someone showed me around and kept upping the pace. now i'm feeling that same plateau again after the SSA trackday.

In that case find someone even faster and follow them around the track. Just an idea.

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by dragonbro
the top secret speed trick all the pros use is............just twist the right grip a little more! :laughing . sorry Calvin, just had to add a smartass reply to your worthy question. and congrats on draggin your knee (on purpose)!

Actually, you're more right than you know...

Everytime you use the throttle, you should be real ginger with it, but twist more into a turn slowly for more corner speed.

By the way, all this talk of draggin knees: I don't drag much around a track, and try to NOT drag as much as possible, as I feel it slows me some. I use my knees like a pole plant kinda...

[theSteveCo]

I've been pondering that same question for the past few weeks, especially with Thunderhill coming up on Wednesday. Take this advice for what it's worth - I'm no "trackho" and I rarely get the "holeshot", but I'll offer what I can in the way of advice (what worked for me)...

Drive harder out of the turns by applying a wee bit more throttle than you normally would. 'Tis easier to exit a turn faster SAFELY than it is to enter it faster. But you already know that. :mstingray Doing this will allow you to explore the greater lean angles and g-forces in a minimally intimidating manner.

As your confidence increases with the lean angles and cornering forces at the exit you will be more comfortable carrying more speed into the turns, sustaining the higher cornering forces through the turn, and (if you're up for it) taking it up another notch again.

I think the worst possible advice is to enter the turn at higher speeds and be forced to deal with the problem you created. No one has offered that advice, I'm just putting that out on the table. If you're not comfortable with the speed you'll choke up and, possibly, go down.

Other random (and somewhat general) tips:

Get your body farther off the bike so it leans less. This will allow you to attain greater velocity at the same lean angle. As stated above, this is assuming you're on the same line. Last time I was out I was able to ride at my previous pace without touching down at all - it was a great excercise.

You might also try to experiment with tighter lines. This worked wonders for me when I went out with Wei7 and MrCrash907... they took me through their tighter lines (further inside) at my pace; the next logical assumption being that I could take my wider lines at a higher speed.

One of DocWong's tips, straight from CSS, is to exit turn A at the same speed you wish to enter turn B. This can be difficult, especially when you want to charge the gap between turns, but helped me to stop worrying about braking and focus on turning.

As for stepping out the rear, there are plenty of people here who can tell you a lot more about it... my only experience has been a mild step through turn 6 when working on more aggressive exits (and thus, higher velocity through 7). Mine came out for about 1/2 second, I froze on the throttle (no more, no less) and it came back in gently and I was on my way. I then proceeded to pull the foam out of my butt when I pitted 3 laps later.

Hope that helps!!

[theSteveCo]

Dang, Holeshot posted while I was typing and we actually agreed on two points... what's the world coming to? :laughing

[Robert R1]

Few tips.

1. If you are not braking you should be accelarating. Coasting is a waste of time.

2. A street bike is much less likely to highside through high speed corners. You more likely to run wide.

3. ALWAYS HAVE POSITIVE THROTTLE. Constantly keep rolling on through the corner. This will not only increase corner speed but help tighten you line also. Neutral throttle and rolling/chopping throttle will actually make the bike run wide and put a lot more load on the front tire.

4. Learn to progressively stand the bike up on corner exits. I see a lot of riders keeping the bike leaned over for too long. The middle part of the tire is where you have the most traction.

5. Keep your upperbody very relaxed and sit in the seat. You should not be standing on the pegs at all.

6. Learn the proper racing lines and increase your entry speed progressively. Counter steer harder as the speed increase.

7. Learn to brake hard. Your bike will slow down much faster than it will accelarate. You can cut down your laptimes significantly if you learn to brake hard and smoothly transition from brakes to gas coming into the corner.

[Holeshot]

Steve,

Good stuff man! We agree? shit, we ride bikes...Suzuki 600's no less. We agree more than you think!

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by Robert R1


3. ALWAYS HAVE POSITIVE THROTTLE. Constantly keep rolling on through the corner. This will not only increase corner speed but help tighten you line also. Neutral throttle and rolling/chopping throttle will actually make the bike run wide and put a lot more load on the front tire.



I disagree here. If you find you're turning too tight, add throttle to carry your bike out. Adding throttle does not help a bike to steer tighter, that I know.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Holeshot
I disagree here. If you find you're turning too tight, add throttle to carry your bike out. Adding throttle does not help a bike to steer tighter, that I know.

It always has worked for me. The person who set my bike up, Robbie (he has very good credentials but I forgot off the top of my head) always dials the bike in so that it won't run wide and actually tighten up it's line under positive throttle.

A lot is mental. You mind tells you that since you rolled off and slowed down, you'll be fine but in reality you just added more load to your front tire and now you need to add more lean angle to hold the line and shifted that 40/60 balance towards the front. I'll look for a link off labusas where Stuman (very fast willow springs guy and Track School Ins.) describes this in detail. I will PM you and then we can talk more about it.

[MackeyStingray]

why PM? it sounds like it could be very good info to spread aroun :D :thumbup

man these are good informative posts, keep em coming! :thumbup

[Holeshot]

I read that thread Robert. Stunman is confusing two things: postive throttle and throttle+. postive throttle is simply maintiaing current throttle postition. This helps the bike to "drive" through the turn, as the rear tire's force is what makes a bike really corner (as it does with a car). Certainly, you are correct, without any throttle to drive the bike through the turn, one would instantly run wide. Look at any of the AMA/WSB/GP riders when they miss a shift coming into a turn or have to roll out of the gas to save a bike midcorner.

However, to drive a bike through a turn, one must keep constant or "postive" throttle control. Bikes run wide when riders roll off throttle due to this loss of drive.

Throttle + is the forumula I use to determine the amount of throttle over constant that needs to be added to carry a bike to the outside of the track on turn exit. Throttle + will never help a bike to turn in faster if it's done correctly.

In short, if throttle is helping one turn in better, there are some major errors being made before that factor. That is the correction for something else that is wrong...

[magyarbetyar]

When you let off the gas mid corner is it the suspension geometry gets upset that cause the bike to run wide?

[Holeshot]

Part that, and part losing the "Drive" of the rear...

[magyarbetyar]

Interesting. Why is it that if you use the rear brake mid corner it tightens up your line. .or so I hear and read.

[christofu]

Originally posted by Robert R1
[B]Few tips.


5. Keep your upperbody very relaxed and sit in the seat. You should not be standing on the pegs at all.


/B]

This is undoubtedly true for most modern street bikes and results in the best use of the bike's suspension. However, it's not true for all bikes. My GP-style bike likes to have the pegs weighted, not the seat.

[christofu]

Originally posted by magyarbetyar
When you let off the gas mid corner is it the suspension geometry gets upset that cause the bike to run wide?

Another significant reason not to let off the throttle mid corner is that it shifts more of the bike's (and your) weight onto the front wheel. It's easy to overwhelm the front wheel traction this way and is a major cause of lowsides.

[theSteveCo]

My understanding (and some experimentation) has led me to believe that weighting the pegs is good... not ALL your weight, but a fair amount. This lowers the center of gravity, providing more stability. Regardless of how much you try to weight the pegs you will have a great deal of pressure holding you down onto the seat and, depending on your body positioning, on the tank.

I also have noticed that chopping the throttle will do one of two things. At the edges of traction a relaxed throttle will put more weight on the tire, causing a slide. Given a low enough margin or drastic enough reduction the front will tuck. If there is sufficient traction the weight transfer will further compress the forks, reducing both rake and trail (just as trail braking does), and turn the bike in.

As previously stated I'm not AFM-class or anything so I'm no expert, but I have been able to tighten lines with relaxed throttle on many occassions. These were not "at the limit", however, so YMMV in those conditions (and, perhaps, is what others are referring to).

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Holeshot


However, to drive a bike through a turn, one must keep constant or "postive" throttle control. Bikes run wide when riders roll off throttle due to this loss of drive.




That's what I'm trying to say. A lot of people coast through the corner, carry a lot of lean angle let have no corner speed and always feel like they are running wide. I was trying to introduce the concept of +throttle to drive through the corner and maintain stability.

[morthrane]

Originally posted by Robert R1
6. Learn the proper racing lines and increase your entry speed progressively. Counter steer harder as the speed increase.

Like steveco said, using tighter lines gives you that bit of cushion to push your limits... not sure if a full on "race" line is the best thing to do such work. STAR said the same thing, and it makes sense... as the lessons you learn when you go all out in any sport tend to be painful, if not ruinously expensive.

Originally posted by magyarbetyar
Interesting. Why is it that if you use the rear brake mid corner it tightens up your line. .or so I hear and read.

Light application of rear brake doesn't really transfer much weight (if any?) to the front wheel, as opposed to front brakes or chopping the throttle. Not sure why it would tighten up your line though... unless its by virtue of decreased speed makes for a tighter line.
I've also heard that a touch of rear brake acts as a stabilizing force (a la trail braking), but I've yet to see an explaination of this in layman's physics terms.

[MackeyStingray]

so basically the same adage of slow in fast out would increase my corner speed. throttle+ seems to be the key as it seems like i'm keeping only positive throttle until the end of the turn. i especially feel this going through turn 2 at thill.

[Holeshot]

There are times when constant throttle is all one can do, though. If you are entering a corner at a good clip, constant throttle is going to exist at some point. You simply want to get to throttle + as soon as possible...

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Holeshot
There are times when constant throttle is all one can do, though. If you are entering a corner at a good clip, constant throttle is going to exist at some point. You simply want to get to throttle + as soon as possible...

Pussy!!! Give it gas!!!

[morthrane]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Pussy!!! Give it gas!!!

Is this followed by the fameous line, "Here, lemme show yah!!!"? :laughing

[PASTAPWR]

Originally posted by morthrane
Is this followed by the fameous line, "Here, lemme show yah!!!"? :laughing

Or that other equally famous line. "hey y'all watch this!":laughing

[trackjunkie]

Negitive Ghostwriter....:hand

Adding more throttle will cause your line to widen... reducing throttle will tighten that line.

Using the inverse logic previously proposed means I would be hitting the wall everytime I exit 15 (Thunder) under full throttle! :)

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by winders


When you are going fast (near the limits of adhesion) through a corner, a bike will almost always run tighter line if you are rolling on the throttle.

Scott

EXACTLY!!!

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by winders
Bzzzt! Wrong answer!!

Yes, keep the upper body relaxed. But don't just sit in the seat. The only time I sit in the seat with no peg weighting is when I am running down a straight in a tucked position. I use my legs to move by body around on the bike. Once you get through one turn, you should be getting ready to move your body for the next turn. You can't do that just sitting in the seat.

I also use my legs as part of the suspension when traversing bumpy parts of the track.

Scott

I get more traction out of the rear when i have my ass towards the back of the seat when driving out, not suspended in the air. I use my legs to move around on the bike also but I see a lot of people panic going into corners and stiffen their legs. This puts variable uncontrollable weight on the pegs and causes them to have very bad body positioning on the bike.

Weighing the pegs is one thing but stiffening your legs and not being on the seat at all just feels wrong and eliminates feedback and I'm sure you wouldn't recommend a rider to have be standing on the pegs throughout the corner.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by winders


The likelihood of highsiding any bike in a high speed turn depends on horsepower and the rider's ability to control it. The more horsepower and less experienced the throttle hand, the more likely the highside.



Scott

I would have a much harder time highsiding a Stock GSXR600 thru Turn 8, 10, and 1 then having a pumped up 160rwhp R1 or GSXR1000.

I know a lot of people who go out and get a Litre Bike, give it every HP mod possible, get a good 155+rwhp, call it their "track bike" and bin it.

Ofcourse you can highside anything if you put your mind to it but some bikes (a lot of 600's and even GSXR750) give you more error room than others.



Running wide has to do with throttle control and steering inputs, not street bike versus track bike.

Rider confidence and proper mechanics will go a long way towards making the bike do what you want.

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by winders


When you are going fast (near the limits of adhesion) through a corner, a bike will almost always run tighter line if you are rolling on the throttle.

Scott

Sure, given the alternative. However, rolling on + Throttle does not make a bike turn better, it merely maintains the current arc. Without some rear spool up, or countersteering, bikes don't turn.

The idea that to turn more, add more gas is false.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by winders
[B]Robert,

Who said anything about my butt being suspended in the air? When I am not turning, my butt is on the seat, but not all of my weight is supported by my butt. In turns, my inner thigh is on the seat, but most of my weight is supported by my feet and my leg against the tank.

I understand the concept of weighing the pegs but what I was reffering to was the stiffening of the legs in panic situations. Hard to be smooth and controlled when stiff. As one advances/gets faster he/she can learn more advanced concepts. We might as well teach him to back it in while slippin' the clutch to control rear wheel chatter.


A bike will handle much better if you don't support all of your weight on the seat. Becoming an active participant in the suspension system allows you far more control over the bike and what it experiences.

If you hang off right, it will be almost impossible to keep ALL you weight on the seat. In retrospect, it wouldn't to ideal to have no weight on the seat either.

My '02 R1 much prefers to have my weight as far forward as possible. This is especially true exiting corners. Otherwise the front end gets too light and even come off the ground. Also, when I am accelerating out of a corner, I try to support as much of my bodyweight on the outside peg as I can until the bike is completely vertical. This helps control any slide that might occur.

Correct about weighing the pegs to help control slides. On my 02 I dropped the forks 8mm. This stopped the bike wanting to wheelie out of 2nd gear or above corners. The back want to rise quicker during hard braking but the bike turns in very fast, holds the line perfectly, and still doesn't require a steering damper (probably need 1 for the track though). I'm going to change the drop to 5mm rather than 8mm because I want to see if I can get more braking stability and more rear end grip.

Anyway, anything that let's you control your bike better will allow you to do the wrong thing "better" as well. I'll take that tradeoff....



Diff. people have diff. preferences and riding styles. If a person is dropping their laptimes(at a competitive pace) and not their bike, more power to them. I have read from a few Track School Instructors on how horrible Troy Bayliss' body positioning is. I doubt Troy gives a shit. It's working for him.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Pussy!!! Give it gas!!!

One such corner as the one Holeshot describes is the Carousel at Sears Point. Constant throttle is all I can typically give it until I reach the bridge.

[foot]

Either Mr. winders is a bs wizard, or he knows a thing or 3. I choose the latter..
enjoying this thread. very informative.
foot

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
One such corner as the one Holeshot describes is the Carousel at Sears Point. Constant throttle is all I can typically give it until I reach the bridge.

And T-2 at T-hill...

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by foot
Either Mr. winders is a bs wizard, or he knows a thing or 3. I choose the latter..
enjoying this thread. very informative.
foot

You should have seen the days Scott (Winders) would get into it with Dan Kyle over on the RC51 forum. That was pure GOLD stuff!