Cold Tear at ThunderHill

[Trackho]

Just got off the phone with the Metzler guy---
Apparently -the cold tear issue has been well known at T-HIll here are some high lights
1) Tear starts happening when T-Hill hits 80F, at 100F doesnt happen
2) Softer spring/rebound may help somewhat
3) RS3(or street) compound is recommended for T-Hill under 80F
4) I have heard other tires having similar issues at T-Hill with reduced temp

[budman]

Good info...Thanks :thumbup

:smoking

[Big Daddy]

Its a pretty common site at T-hill if your setup is off, meaning any 1 of these can contribute to the tearing! suspension, air pressure, tire compound. The Michelin H2's will do exactly the same thing no matter how sweet the setup is simply because its T-hill and it has an appetite for tires(left side mainly) however the Michelin M2's will not tear like the H2's because of a different tire compound.

BD

[morthrane]

You could do what I've heard that the fast willow springs guys do... run a softer rennsport up front, and run an m1 sportec out back. Same ride height as the rennsport I believe, and since they recommend a street tire for colder days... Probably a bit cheaper, without being performance hindering.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by morthrane
You could do what I've heard that the fast willow springs guys do... run a softer rennsport up front, and run an m1 sportec out back. Same ride height as the rennsport I believe, and since they recommend a street tire for colder days... Probably a bit cheaper, without being performance hindering.

Last year at Willow, the trackside Pirelli guys used to provide dual compound Daytona tires, with one side a medium compound and the other a soft. The M1 wasn't available at the time, don't know what they are doing now.

[Trackho]

personally-I would prefer the tread pattren/performance of the Rennsport street---plus they are pretty cheap---I would be willing to bet the compound is close too or the same as the Sportec--The Metzler rep siad that the diff in the RS3 and Street compound was minimal

[Big Daddy]

TrackHo your right the RS3 is catagorized as an endurance compound from Metzeler therefore its very similar to the street tire in that regard.

BD

[Robert R1]

The RS3 seems to have comparable traction to the RS2 but with better longevity. You can tell the diff. in traction when powering out of low speed corners, for me anyway. The RS1 has awesome traction at any speed but disappears as you blink. I would never put a RS1 on a litre bike unless I won the lotto and has 3 spare rims.

[SpeedyG]

The difference in perfromance between the M1 and Street rennsport is minimal. Sport Rider tested both, and found the rennsport a few tenths faster, but rated the M1 better.

The M1 is going to last you longer than the rennsport. Rennsport is out at 3 trackdays (depending on speeds), and the M1 is out at 4+ trackdays, the M1s wear really well. So, as far as cost effectiveness and performance, go with the M1s, much better value for performance.

Steve

[Big Daddy]

Steve,

At our Sept 29th t-day at T-hill a riding buddy had his RC51 with new M1's and when the day was done the rear was to the wear bars. He started the day with lap times in the mid teen's and ended up with 2:10's so he is not blazing fast but above avg for sure. The ambient temps were at the 80 degree mark so I would say thats pretty much OK. Could the street Renn have lasted longer?? maybe! maybe not.

BD

[Trackho]

I use M1s on the XX for the street--they last about 2K to the wearbars--2.5K bald---

The Rennsport streets were about the same on the 929----

I reallt dont think that highly of sportriders tire test---it conflicted with some much more rigorous test such as that in performance bike a while ago

[morthrane]

Performance bike really seemed to like the (street) rennsport when they did a shootout of some ~30 tires, but I don't think that the M1 was included in that, or the newer Pilot Sports (h2/m2/etc.). Judging just from what people say (and rave about the M1's), they're probably not much different from each other...

Performance Bike Tire test (http://www.tl1000.com/pb_tires/sport_rider_sep_2001.htm)

[morthrane]

Originally posted by Trackho
personally-I would prefer the tread pattren/performance of the Rennsport street---plus they are pretty cheap---I would be willing to bet the compound is close too or the same as the Sportec--The Metzler rep siad that the diff in the RS3 and Street compound was minimal

Yeah, but the M1's are a fair bit cheaper than street rennsports.

[magyarbetyar]

OK here is a lame question. Does anyone have pics of what a cold "tore-up":teeth tire looks like? :confused Are the tears across the tire or are they radial? I am assuming they are radial.

[MackeyStingray]

while they're not rennsports, i did have cold tears on my H2 when they were on my TLR. weird how i'm riding basically the same way on 208GPs (riding a little harder) but not getting the same tearing problems. :| :D

[SpeedyG]

Originally posted by Big Daddy
Steve,

At our Sept 29th t-day at T-hill a riding buddy had his RC51 with new M1's and when the day was done the rear was to the wear bars. He started the day with lap times in the mid teen's and ended up with 2:10's so he is not blazing fast but above avg for sure. The ambient temps were at the 80 degree mark so I would say thats pretty much OK. Could the street Renn have lasted longer?? maybe! maybe not.

BD

Hey BD, well, i know there some wear can be attributed to type of rider (very hard on the gas), suspension (soft vs hard), weight, and size of bike (600 vs 1000cc). I run an R6 and have used the M1s at a faster pace than 210s for 4 trackdays, front and rear with moderate wear. Wereas with the Renns, I cant get more than 3 because it develops a ridge on the edges. Has he used any other tires on the track, what were his experiences with them? Ask some of the racers on the board how long their tires last, you will find its usually more than 1 day. That gets realy expensive if you know what i mean!


SG

[Big Daddy]

I have no doubt's its attributed in large part to a big bore twin in how they deliver power vs a smaller cc bike. Riding style and suspension will play a smaller role but when you factor in all the above his' M1 went away pretty quick considering his times and temp. Yeah needless to say he was disappointed with knowing it went off that fast and had to spend more $$$.

BD

[Trackho]

Does anyone have pics of what a cold "tore-up" tire looks like? Are the tears across the tire or are they radial? I am assuming they are radial. ---Nope not radial---they start typically at the end of the trend on the Rennsport (1" from the edge)---they develop patches---then eventually if left untreated contect to dig a circumfrencial trench above 1 " from the edge of the tire.

[Holeshot]

Wow! That's exactly what I was getting too Trackho. I thought it was just me...

The feeling in not fun when the tire transitions from the edge to the are inboard of the "pit". Lots of tire slides and not much grip...

[Trackho]

Got back from Laguna Seca yesterday--used a brand new RS2---guess what no tearage----in fact some pretty sweet normal wear patterns---so the Metzler rep saying it was limited to T-Hill under 80F--might be true

[SpeedyG]

Went to Thill today (10-30) Pretty cold in the morning definately under for the first half. I was using a rs2 front and a street supercorsa rear. I took it real easy in the first half, no "cold" tearing until the end of the day when i was really hard on it (not very noticeable though).

Steve

[fireblade_rr]

From what I hear Laguna is a tire friendly track compared to T-hill. The Michelin guy set me up with a S2 (very soft)/M2 (med/hard but sticky) combo for T-hill as to avoid the rear tire from shredding. And for my track day at Laguna he told me to go with the H2 (soft) or S2 rear.

Here is Alex's web site

http://afmotorsports.com/

[PacttInstr]

I switched from Dunlops to Michelin at the begining of the season and found that I personally like the Michelin compound a little better, while the profile is almost the same. BUT I have found that the Dunlops get up to operating speed much quicker and seem to avoid some of the cold tearing.

[nine]

FWIW, I ran brand new Sportec M1's at T-hill on 11/05. While my pace was only mid-teens I had no problems at all. The tires looked great at the end of the day.

For guys that had H2's, I saw a ring that ran the circumference of the rear tire about 1 inch from the left edge on two different bikes, an RC51 and an SV650. Both of those guys were only running mid-teens as well.

When they asked the Michelin guys whether or not they should be concerned, they told them not to worry about it.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by morthrane
You could do what I've heard that the fast willow springs guys do... run a softer rennsport up front, and run an m1 sportec out back. Same ride height as the rennsport I believe, and since they recommend a street tire for colder days... Probably a bit cheaper, without being performance hindering.

Hey Morth,

I talked to Jerry Jirkovsky of California Race Services (The California Metzeler / Pirelli trackside guys) last week at the Ducati intro, and told him about the Sportec setup you mentioned.

His response:

"Who the hell told you that? Did you hear that on the Internet? I've never heard that, or recommended that before!"

[Big Daddy]

__________________________________________________ __
FWIW, I ran brand new Sportec M1's at T-hill on 11/05. While my pace was only mid-teens I had no problems at all. The tires looked great at the end of the day.

For guys that had H2's, I saw a ring that ran the circumference of the rear tire about 1 inch from the left edge on two different bikes, an RC51 and an SV650. Both of those guys were only running mid-teens as well.

When they asked the Michelin guys whether or not they should be concerned, they told them not to worry about it.
__________________________________________________ __

Nine,

That 'ring' 1inch from the edge is cold tearing and contrary to what they were informed by Michelin guys its NOT GOOD and they should worry about it as the tire continues to tear lap after lap and chew itself up theres a loss of traction hence it becomes slippery. As you've seen mentioned in a few posts the suspension will play a part in tire wear as well. The H2 rear is too soft for T-hill 90% of the time, however the M2 rear is a better choice but from what I've read and been told the M2 & S2 are only available through a race tire distributor and cost more as well :cry

BTW: Michelin guys 'not to worry about it' major SALES LINE :mad

BD

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by nine
For guys that had H2's, I saw a ring that ran the circumference of the rear tire about 1 inch from the left edge on two different bikes, an RC51 and an SV650. Both of those guys were only running mid-teens as well.


You mean like in the photo below?

That was done with a Dunlop slick on my 77 hp SV650, I forget the compound. One day at Thunderhill, doing 2:03s in practice, 2:02s in the race.

The tearing went away when I went to medium compound DOT tires and revalved the shock for more low speed compression damping.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/011/765/170858-tire.jpg

[Trackho]

Yep thats the evil cold tear alright---to the guys doing the mid-teens----you probably wont have these issues nearly as bad---they seem to start sub 2:10--get worse sub 2:05---I would highly "unrecommend" Sportecs for these speeds----Seems to me that the "SportRider" article was Veeeeery biased---I have seen waaaay too many people have crash/experiences like Dennis on the Michelins----My Humble Opinion

[nine]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
You mean like in the photo below?

That was done with a Dunlop slick on my 77 hp SV650, I forget the compound. One day at Thunderhill, doing 2:03s in practice, 2:02s in the race.

The tearing went away when I went to medium compound DOT tires and revalved the shock for more low speed compression damping.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/011/765/170858-tire.jpg

yep, but not quite as pronounced.

[Holeshot]

I tore the hell outa my Supercorsa's at the lat AFM practice on Saturday.

Sunday rolled around, 10 degrees warmer, and the tires stopped tearing, and I was going 6 seconds faster at sub 2:00's...that should have made things worse I'd think...and it was race conditions.

Who knows....

[Trackho]

10 degrees warmer ----seems to be the determining factor here