Safety???????

[ALANRIDER7]

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=22878

It looks like Haskovec is paralyzed.

I gotta tell ya, I think Sears Point needs some serious safety revisions. For example, I was watching (the miserable excuse for) turn one and some of the riders were going wide and kicking gravel onto the racing line. In between races, it seemed like it was a coin toss if it got cleaned up or not. I was about 1mm away from going up to the zoned out cornerworker with his unused broom and saying something. Then the track truck came by and finally swept the line clean. WTF!!!

[Holeshot]

The AMA T1 was more of a problem than our AFM T1. It needed paving beyond the curbing...there was a huge rut beyond the curbing in the dirt.

Sears has become noticeably safer in the last few years. Sure, it's still got dangers, but the track has taken an active approach to safety. As I understand that "railing", it prevents a bike from launching onto the drag strip.

Sometimes accidents happen that are unpreventable. I wish the AFM could secure some air fences. They saved Gulbransen's ass, thankfully.

[racercutie]

Why do US tracks suck so much? I'm not just referring to lack of runoff, but pavement, grandstands or lack thereof
Why don't owners maintain them?

[ALANRIDER7]

Yes, they have made improvements. I'm just concerned about some of the more obvious issues. Airfences would be great but they are big bucks.

[NSR250SP]

The AFM used air fence. Been using it for some time now. The last event there was a request for more then normal to deal with the new turn 9 layout, but the company that supplies it for us was also up in Portland (if I remember correctly), and they didnt' have any additional fence for us that weekend.

I am sure there will be more there our next outing at Inf.

Racing is dangerous. There will never be a track that is 100% safe in all cases. We need to look at the work that has been done there, as well as the fact that Infineon is willing to work with the motorcycle community to make it a safer place. Supply Infineon with information, and work with them to make the place as safe as it can be.

As for the track not being cleaned? Thats not Infineon. Thats the corner workers/club not doing their job. AMA selects to run the turn 1 configuration they do. There are other options for them. They feel that the turn layout they use gives them the safest option for that turn then the other layout (turn AFM uses). Infineon is not forcing AMA to run the turn 1 they run.

[HRCrider]

I know no track can be 100% safe. But my god, how much fricking common sense do you need to have, to know turn 5 needs airfence:hand Your going through there at 120mph or whatever and if you lose it you go straight into a fucking guard rail. That wall can be moved way back. Or if that can't be done build a gravel trap that slopes up hill that would stop a bike from going up and over onto the drag strip along with airfence and hay bails. I will tell you right now I sure hope the AFM addresses this issue. We all know this is one of the most dangerous places there, and we see what can happen, lets do something about it now before someone else gets paralysed or killed:mad

[GPgofast]

Word!

The turn 5 Armco can be moved a LONG way back and gravel traps in select turns would help greatly. GP

[awgeezdawn]

what GPgofast said

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by NSR250SP
AMA selects to run the turn 1 configuration they do. There are other options for them. They feel that the turn layout they use gives them the safest option for that turn then the other layout (turn AFM uses). Infineon is not forcing AMA to run the turn 1 they run.

Actually Charles, you're incorrect here. Infineon required the AMA to run that T1, so Ron Barrick told us that wanted it changed (yates, Haydens, Hayes, Pegram etc). He explained that race control determined with the recent deaths, that of course had nothing to do with T1, Infineon had "selected" this course for us.

And he promissed that next year they'd push for the other T1.

[petaluma]

Originally posted by HRCrider
Or if that can't be done build a gravel trap that slopes up hill that would stop a bike from going up and over onto the drag strip along with airfence and hay bails

Yeah its a pretty simple concept. Been on the national highways for years. Anybody ever seen a runaway truck ramp. Pretty damn effective stopper.

[dgrace]

The AMA turn 1 also seems particularly dangerous at the end of a race, if you've got the throttle WFO heading for the checkered flag it's gotta be tough to slow down enough to make that turn. The AFM turn 1 seems like a better option all around especially since they moved the bridge whose supports used to be the major hazard.

dave

[teamtpr]

Originally posted by dgrace
The AMA turn 1 also seems particularly dangerous at the end of a race, if you've got the throttle WFO heading for the checkered flag it's gotta be tough to slow down enough to make that turn. The AFM turn 1 seems like a better option all around especially since they moved the bridge whose supports used to be the major hazard.

dave

You are also correct Sir .
Something I posted else were. But I want to ring in
With my one cent again . K

Hi Timmy 15 , TIMMY
Vik you are so Right about turn one Bro.

Calefaction : AFM Will , From now on run
The new AMA Turn 9, Don't ask me why
I don't like it anymore than the others that have the same opinion,
And Since the Bridge has been removed
Barb and the gang Thought that it was safe enough to run up the hill without the kink, "IT IS"
That is the only reason that AMA even started doing the kink in the first place "Because of the Bridge"
And Now that it is gone, I don't know why they insist on running it that way, Sucks to
Made me have to work twice as hard this weekend it did.
Shaun had a spill there this weekend and f-in destroyed That poor R-6 Of his.
No Dam run off there Smart ,you jackasses." AMA official"
Seen even the big guys go off there more than a few times during this weekend

P.S. I Know this was a thread Jacking Sorry GoGo
Seen you posting on the other site Glad to see that you are A.O.K.
Your opinion on the Matter Please

[NSR250SP]

I stand corrected on who decided turn 1 for AMA.

Although I find it odd that the track would force AMA to run it, yet allow AFM to run the corner they determined was to dangerous to use for another club (?). But Ron is a stand up guy that always takes responsability for all his decisions, so I guess its the truth ;)

I know from watching AMA turn one a couple years ago, there was need for additional pavement to reduce bikes putting a tire in the dirt and dragging crap onto the track. I guess since there hasn't been all that much crashing because of this the AMA and/or the track felt the additional pavement wasn't warrented (I guess we will never really know the answer to that).

If there is a need for additional protection in turn 5, please send a request to Kevin at the afm (as well as the board). I am sure the club will address it if it is needed. They have been deploying airbale for many years now (even before RRW got the industry all up in arms about it). The AFM doesn't own their own, they rent it from a company in the bay area. That company deploys it and keeps it working all weekend.

The AFM can ask for more if the need comes up. They just need some lead time to make sure that the amount needed is available. I am sure we will see some of it in the new turn 9, as Kevin has already asked for it.

Thanks,

[Fast Turtle]

Originally posted by NSR250SP
They have been deploying airbale for many years now (even before RRW got the industry all up in arms about it). The AFM doesn't own their own, they rent it from a company in the bay area. That company deploys it and keeps it working all weekend.

The AFM can ask for more if the need comes up. They just need some lead time to make sure that the amount needed is available. I am sure we will see some of it in the new turn 9, as Kevin has already asked for it.

Thanks,

I must have missed it, granted I've only run two race weekends but I don't recall seeing any airfence anywhere at Sears. Where do they use it?

[Holeshot]

Dave, you're downshifting/ braking after the checkered. It's not any different on the last lap.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=22878
I gotta tell ya, I think Sears Point needs some serious safety revisions.

Last October I had the unfortunate experience of having my running off track at the outside of the carousel turn into what I believe to be an unavoidable catastrophe had the run-off area simply been maintained. In that instance, I was pitched highside as I hit a concrete electrical conduit box that was exposed due to erosion.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/120/027/1760876-img_1071__3_.jpg

[Catfish]

I simply informed Jere Starks (of Infineon) of my incident and showed him pictures of the exposed obstacle when I was at one of his track days. In this case a quick fix was/is to grade dirt over it as well as other potential hazards such as the exposed tires that have been buried into the hillside there to help with the prevention of the erosion. However, in my mind........the obstacle I hit needs to be removed eventually. I don't have the confidence to believe that thorough inspections are being made after any substantial rainfall (and the nature of that hill is conducive to quick erosion....clay subsoil, loose dirt for topsoil, degree of slope, etc. Do I check it before I run there? You betcha! Have I made any stink..........no. Should I........maybe yes? I was lucky that I wasn't thrown into the tire wall or even over it. That was grace. I suffered the same injuries as Vincent less one...the back injury. I count myself as very lucky! The wall I missed was a concrete one albeit it had two tiers of tire stacks before it. I believe that the armco that Vincent hit only had one tier of tires.......

It is a damn shame that it continues, it seems, to take an incident to identify a problem. Perhaps we all need to walk the track one day and put our collective minds together to identify issues. It does seem astonishing to me that no addressing of that armco barrier has been made by the more powerful AMA after all the pressure they put on for addressing turn 10 & 1. I saw the wreck. It makes me sick to see the lack of intelligent forethought. As I look at that barrier from turn 2 and see how it narrows the run-off as you get closer to the approach of the carousel, I can't see any real thought given to the safety of motorcyclists. This reason of having it there to prevent bikes from flying into the drag strip/exit of the carousel seems pretty lame to me. A high fence can prevent that. There is a large amount of open space that is simply fenced in for no justifiable reason. If the fence on the eastern edge of that area were a high one, and the armco was moved to just the middle of that open space..............well, you get the kind of pondering that should have gone on beforehand. I believe I read on another thread that GPgofast mentioned that the sewage treatment tanks used to be in that area. Is this correct? If so, when were they moved? And if they were moved, why no addressing the armco barrier??

[Catfish]

Here's my front wheel. The luck of having the bike leaned over to where the lip of concrete penetrated the tire and thusly collapse the wheel. A testiment to forged wheels non-the-less. My brake discs were fine.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/120/027/1760901-img_1075__3_.jpg

[Catfish]

And here's the subsequent cover-up! I took this picture at the AMA test date back on 3/17/05. Notice that the grass hasn't grown in yet. Makes me wonder if they just did it before that test date.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/120/027/1760908-img_1139__2_.jpg

[karlitos]

Grass? :wow :rolleyes

As I mentioned in another thread, the only place in the US that will NOW be at a MIN international standards is Laguna Seca. I trust that American track owners will take note of this, as well as self-proclaimed track "designers".

Whilst it is true that no track can never, ever, be 100% safe, it does not have to be death defying, bin it and die situation. Racing is already dangerous as it is, without some sloppy track owners to make it 100 times worse. The amount of severe injuries DUE entirely to the track in the US is grossly unacceptable.

It still strikes me that most US tracks have not been sued to hell (in the most moronically litigious country in the planet). Moreover, that insurance companies actually write policies for them too. It could be that American lawyers, juries and judges have no clue as how ghetto-like most (but fortunately not all) US tracks are. I dont call for litigation, nor i think it is the solution, but come on.
The track owner/operator border on the criminal -- at the very least on the moral level.

[eeeeek]

Isn't Barber up to min Int. standards?

[dgrace]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Dave, you're downshifting/ braking after the checkered. It's not any different on the last lap.

My bad - I had thought that since start/finish was so close to the turn entry that you might have to start your braking before it on a standard lap, making the final lap more dangerous. Sorry bout that.

Congrats on your results this weekend BTW!

dave

[Holeshot]

Thanks Dave!

Karlitos, eat shit on that "suing tracks without minimum international standards" talk. We don't need to use our ridiculous legal system to cure this "problem" which is actually, the reality of the situation we in the US deal with. We race on what we have to race on...not cry about it. As I recall, many a Euro racer has been injured at these "safe" tracks you speak of. We're not talking about golf here...let's not assume we can sterlize safety.

Shoot, they still run the Isle of Mann despite Jeffries crash. Should they be sued too?

I hate talk like that. It's just a chickenshit solution.

[NSR250SP]

I agree with holeshot 100% here.

suing will do nothing but give us less places to race.

There are plenty of European tracks, as well as other countries tracks that have issues. Hell, Suzuka is a good example of this.

I am sure that you can find tracks all over Europe that are not up to the levels that the MotorGP runs on. Those are just the ones we see here in the US.

Speaking of track conditions, the AFM is in the process of putting together a team of people to walk the run off areas of the tracks we race on, and report back to the board, and track about possible issues they find. If you are interested in this, contact the board, and see how you can help.

Thanks,

[kngpengwin]

I think a lot of the safety issues come down to money. if bikes were more popular (like they are in europe) instead of the knuckle dragging left turning that passes for racing in this country, there would be more attendance at the races (even club races) and more money from television. track owners would have the ability to spend that money on improvements to their racetracks...better facilities, nicer aesthetics, and (hopefully) racer safety. they'd be motivated to make those changes because with all that extra money floating around there would be more competition...a better track could open and take away their business. a dangerous track could be removed from pro and club schedules, costing the track big money.

but as it stands, the money isn't there...clubs are struggling to survive and I doubt track owners are getting rich from motorcycle racing.

it SUCKS that our safety is measured in dollars, but it's the world we live in. I know I'll be making a big donation to the RRW action fund this year...that might be the best thing we can all do to protect ourselves from the armco and cement that lurks around some of our favorite racetracks.

[wildside]

ALANRIDER7 , Our AFM workers were told that the Infineon Fire Safety Crew was in charge of the track, and they were the ones to do all repairs, yada yada, etc. We butted heads with them a few times on Saturday, and Were told Sunday, Its THEIR track. Enough said.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Thanks Dave!

Karlitos, eat shit on that "suing tracks without minimum international standards" talk. We don't need to use our ridiculous legal system to cure this "problem" which is actually, the reality of the situation we in the US deal with. We race on what we have to race on...not cry about it. As I recall, many a Euro racer has been injured at these "safe" tracks you speak of. We're not talking about golf here...let's not assume we can sterlize safety.

Shoot, they still run the Isle of Mann despite Jeffries crash. Should they be sued too?

I hate talk like that. It's just a chickenshit solution.

First of all, i have not called for sueing the tracks (have a reading comp. problems? :confused ). I am just surprised it has not happened yet. :confused

I guess, it may be that since few or none of you have ever tried a European track, you may not know (though a few in the UK are REALLY ancient). Certainly not all Euro tracks are to Jerez or Montemeló standards (I think it was Ulrich that montmelo it made US tracks seem third world in comparison when he test rode there), but they are not far behind in safety.

A few years ago a track was built in Almeria (http://www.circuitodealmeria.com) with 100% private funding. It is certainly not like jerez or any big track. But it is very, very safe with excellent run-off and gravel traps. Excellent surface and curbing. It also have a few pit boxes that are nice. Nothing fancy though. The designers did not build it safe in order to avoid being sued :rolleyes

Jarama, is a good track (www.jarma.org), but 35 years old and a couple of slow corners there is not much run-off. But they have put deep gravel and good barriers. No deaths or lifeflights or paralized racers -- ever. Last guy to die there was in car some 20 years ago. Not to say that freak accidents can't happen, because at other tracks they do.

People most certainly can and do get injured. After all, i almost ran over a guy two weeks ago in the first corner. It turned ok, but it could have turned out bad. But if it did, it is not because the track was faulty (in fact there is huge runoff with deep gravel) :hand In fact, in catching up I almost collided trying to make a pass on the crest (for some reason he shut off early, and ran wide) pushing me over the edge of the track and having to run off (5th at 14K). I shot over the grass/dirt edge, passed the track and into to gravel trap. I waded out with the help of the marshalls and got back on track. All without raising my heartbeat.

Point is, how many die in the US? How many are severly injured? How many are paralized? All due entirly to the track? (& not some freak accident). Now compare the same in all of Europe.

BTW.. Suzuka is not in Europe and PI is neither (the most injury prone track in GP). IOM was taken out of the GP circuit 30 years ago, after racers refused to race there anymore. Those who do, race IMO TT. If you like Road Racing, then fine. You have a choice: Road or closed circuit racing.

Well, Holeshot, glad you are all macho man. Ready to take on dangerous racing and risk life and limb.. I am impressed. So if the day comes and you hit a wall, dont cry. What is the point, right?

[afmotorsports]

Oh!...and this one time... at band camp... I stuck a flute in my pussy! :rolleyes

Michelle from American Pie (http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/american_pie/flute.wav)

Look at ME everybody, I'm a fookin' know-it-all 'cause I race in Spain and you guys are sooooo stew-pid 'cause you don't know any better than your shitty american tracks... :nerd

Spare us... :hand

Say my name, bitch! (http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/american_pie/bitch.wav)

Infineon is a lot safer than it ever was - sure it's not perfect but it's nothing close to this "death trap" that some people suggest it is. Riders get killed at Willow Springs without ever touching a solid object.

There are still some areas where we can hopefully come up with safer runoff, but for the most part the track is really good now! :thumbup

[Trackho]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Thanks Dave!

Karlitos, eat shit on that "suing tracks without minimum international standards" talk. We don't need to use our ridiculous legal system to cure this "problem" which is actually, the reality of the situation we in the US deal with. We race on what we have to race on...not cry about it. As I recall, many a Euro racer has been injured at these "safe" tracks you speak of. We're not talking about golf here...let's not assume we can sterlize safety.

Shoot, they still run the Isle of Mann despite Jeffries crash. Should they be sued too?

I hate talk like that. It's just a chickenshit solution.

Alex, gotta agree with you too. I am NOT sure where this Carlitos thinks he knows squat about racing on tracks that he has zero experience with. He must be bored in Spain, because his worthless blather seems to be endless. I dont get it.

Back on-track:

Not to mention Wayne Rainey was paralyzed in a "european gravel trap" from a relatively "routine" low side. Infineon HAS put a substantial effort into making their track safer for motorcycles. Frankly, I am surprised as the amount of revenue bikes generate whenst compared to cars is probably negligible. Having said that, there still needs some work to be done, like removing/moving unecessary armcos like the one Vincent hit, it is sad that this will probably be done only AFTER a serious injury occured.

What really boggles my mind is the fact that AFM does NOT use airfence, I personally would be more than willing to pay another $100 in membership fees to have airfence rented/leased/whatever to cover the high-to-med risk corners, NOT pursuing this seems like an ABSURD oversite by AFM "management"---or maybe I am just missing something--wouldnt be the first time.

Like HoleShot, I believe that whenever we get on a racetrack, we assume a certain level of risk for death/paralyzation, even though we dont want to think about it. But it also seems like we could reduce this risk SUBSTANTIALLY with some well positioned airfence, I would love to hear why this isnt happening.

Suing tracks would simply eliminate any possibility of racing/trackdays---then we would all have to die of premature heart attacks as our stress-relieving efforts would be drastically reduced.

Infineon has put in a major effort to make the track safer by working WITH professional racers/others---and I can guarentee the financial "pay-back" will take hundreds of years to catch up. I believe that continuing to work WITH INfineon track management is the BEST solution thru-and-thru

[petaluma]

Originally posted by kngpengwin
I think a lot of the safety issues come down to money. if bikes were more popular (like they are in europe) instead of the knuckle dragging left turning that passes for racing in this country, there would be more attendance at the races (even club races) and more money from television. track owners would have the ability to spend that money on improvements to their racetracks...better facilities, nicer aesthetics, and (hopefully) racer safety.

I agree 100%. I heard an announcer at the AMA race a couple of years ago state that we are the fringe of the fringe.

In Europe motorcycles are revered and here to most people they are a nuisance at best and deathtraps at worst.

I don't know how we change that perception. Until we do we will have a hard time getting the funding to do track safety upgrades around the country.

Look at Nascar. I would be willing to bet that the attendance at one Nascar race at a super speedway eclipses the combined attendence at all AMA roadraces. Thank Yamaha for stepping up at Laguna. Otherwise we would all be hopping on planes to beautiful Alabama this July......

I for one would be more than willing to pony up extra cash for the AFM to rent additional airfence for our races.

[christofu]

Ummm... I don't think Karlitos was actually advocating suing tracks...? (correct me if I'm wrong, Karlitos).

I just think he was expressing surprise that more people DON'T sue tracks.

My personal view is that motorcyclists certainly go into track riding with their eyes open and when shit happens they own up and say that it was something they did of their own accord. Also, motorcyclists do seem to be a good an honorable bunch... remember the horror and outrage when someone's helmet was stolen? I don't think we're going to soon see anyone find a finger in the chili of our racetracks.

That being said, there ARE aspects of our tracks that could be improved. Certainly, when we bug the tracks enough they seem to listen (e.g. moving the back-straight wall at TH).

I think Karlitos was more trying to thrust toward a point of "what would cause the track managements to proactively go out and find these problems and solve them all to the best they can". I would be very happy if they all went out and did it because it was the right thing to do but they're not and they're still putting armco barrier in the runoff.

I'm certainly not advocating going off and suing the tracks. I think that would be bad. Any thoughts on what else would incent them to make their tracks as safe as can be?

[Bubba687]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't sears have the highest number of fatalities/serious injuries compared to the other tracks ie BW/T-Hill? In my short time with the AFM the worst crashes where at sears. You would think the the insurance companies would push Sears to be more on top of things. Track safety is not revenue generating so what real incentive does sears have to make it safer other than the illusion it is safer?

[kngpengwin]

all this talk about racetrack safety makes me wonder...do any REAL statistics exist for serious injuries/fatalities at various tracks?

of course racing is dangerous...let's be honest, that's part of what draws us to it...but there's nothing macho about making it more dangerous than it needs to be. those that think it's more macho to race near walls should go do IOM.

[karlitos]

Seems christofu is the only one here that actually good reading comp and can think.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by NSR250SP
I am sure that you can find tracks all over Europe that are not up to the levels that the MotorGP runs on. Those are just the ones we see here in the US.


Have you been to "those" tracks you "mention" in spain, Italy or France? Have you, at least, seen on onboard video?

Has anybody been to a track in europe? Raced? I know a few US tracks and got to "see" a few more -- due to the american love affair with on-board vids -- and most are down right scary (also bumpy, patchy etc).

The WORST I have been to (outside the US) has been cartagena. Good pavement over all. No patches and a few, insignificant ripples. Runoff was the biggest issues for racers. Being mostly dirt with some bushes growing and worse, a 10cm dropoff on some corners.

http://moteroweb.eresmas.com/cartagena1.jpg

[dgrace]

Originally posted by karlitos
Has anybody been to a track in europe?

You've never been to Thunderhill, but that doesn't seem to keep you from dispensing advice about it. One wonders, given the near-magical state of tracks and culture in Europe that we keep hearing about, why you spend so much of your time posting here rather than enjoying your surroundings?

dave

[kneedrag]

I've been to a couple Euro tracks including Cartagena. Fun track but not up to the overall standard of Sears Point. I've also raced in Thailand where there was a wall 10' of the track in the fastest part of the course. Yet again not, in my opinion, safer than Sears. The scariest and most fun was Cadwell park (England), zero run-off in one corner. South Africa had a track outside Joberg that has you zig-zag through K-walls to reach the front straight.

So yes I've been and raced some overseas tracks. Bad tracks, or better yet bad sections, are not limited to the U.S.

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by karlitos
So if the day comes and you hit a wall, dont cry. What is the point, right?

Ok Karlitos, consider what you've said to a club of racers that just lost a racer to a wall last season. Think a second how smart that was. Fucking moron. The attitude all season was "T9's fun" until we lost one of our own...I was one of the few that hated T9/T10.

The gravity of that situation was that the AFM was wrong and the AMA was correct, on track safety. After seeing the results of the T9 chicane at Sears work, the old T9 has proven to be a killer and nothing else. I applaud the AMA on this effort alone.

Look Karlitos, for the umpteenth time, the condition of Euro tracks has nothing to do with the condition of US tracks. We can push for changes for safety, but ultimately we need to race on what exists. Call that Macho if you wish, but that's just not knowing the definition of the word. It's actually necessity. We race on what's provided to us and expect our clubs to push for safer tracks. It comes down to economics and not lawyers in the sport.

I was gonna go on a rant on how no one really can relate to velencia, and all these euro tracks you bring up EVERY SINGLE POST! But what's the point. You're one comment pissed me off enough.

I'd NEVER wish or even allude to the injury of another racer. You're a weird fucking guy. Stay in Espana, for both our sakes.

[Robert R1]

Karlitos,

Have fun on your Spanish tracks. England is much closer and the tracks the BSB guys run on are very dangerous, by their own admission. Drop by and help them out 1st before you make your way across the pond because frankly no one here gives 2 shits about your opinion.

Thanks,
Robert.

[ontherearwheel]

The real question is why the AFM still races Sears. Sears will never be AFM safe. If the real concern is safety of the racers, then TH and BW should be raced more and Sears less.

A few here making comments must not remember the old Sears or they would know how much safer it has become.

As for turn 9.......it would be interesting to see how many crashes there are in the new t9 v the old t9.

[Robert R1]

Sears is the best track out of 3. If AFM left sears and Sears started their own club like WSMC and had all their races at Sears, I'd be the first to sign up.

[Holeshot]

I don't think there have been any serious injuries in the new T9. Have there?

[Mike152]

Originally posted by Holeshot
I don't think there have been any serious injuries in the new T9. Have there?


The only injuries I can remember was Duhamel breaking his collar bone when he highsided on the exit. That was last year? Last AFM race I think #415 may have broken his collar bone, not sure. He highsided on the exit.

[HiggyB]

Warning: racing noob talking here...

With all this talk about US track owners I'm left to also wonder how safety issues are being handled at the new facilities being built, like that one in Utah and wasn't there a new facility being built in the South Bay (or at least somewhere south of the Bay, yet not as far as B.wheezy?). Are _new_ tracks being built to higher standards and it's really older tracks that need updating to be up to par with modern bikes/cars?

Just wondering what y'all thought or had heard. Thanks...


edit: I inserted the word "higher" in my comments above, as in "... higher standards ..."

[Trackho]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ok Karlitos, consider what you've said to a club of racers that just lost a racer to a wall last season. Think a second how smart that was. Fucking moron. The attitude all season was "T9's fun" until we lost one of our own...I was one of the few that hated T9/T10.

The gravity of that situation was that the AFM was wrong and the AMA was correct, on track safety. After seeing the results of the T9 chicane at Sears work, the old T9 has proven to be a killer and nothing else. I applaud the AMA on this effort alone.

Look Karlitos, for the umpteenth time, the condition of Euro tracks has nothing to do with the condition of US tracks. We can push for changes for safety, but ultimately we need to race on what exists. Call that Macho if you wish, but that's just not knowing the definition of the word. It's actually necessity. We race on what's provided to us and expect our clubs to push for safer tracks. It comes down to economics and not lawyers in the sport.

I was gonna go on a rant on how no one really can relate to velencia, and all these euro tracks you bring up EVERY SINGLE POST! But what's the point. You're one comment pissed me off enough.

I'd NEVER wish or even allude to the injury of another racer. You're a weird fucking guy. Stay in Espana, for both our sakes.

My sentiments exactly---Carlitos, maybe you should ride one of our tracks before you ensue-the-spew

[Mike152]

[i]Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
For example, I was watching (the miserable excuse for) turn one and some of the riders were going wide and kicking gravel onto the racing line. In between races, it seemed like it was a coin toss if it got cleaned up or not. I was about 1mm away from going up to the zoned out cornerworker with his unused broom and saying something. Then the track truck came by and finally swept the line clean. WTF!!! [/B]


Zoned out cornerworkers. I like that. The track was taking care of cleaning the course. As we found out on Saturday all we were there for was to flag and pick up bikes. I know the crew that was in T1. Their good workers and know what their doing. Hey if it was causing you that much of a problem all you had to do was find an AMA offical and tell them.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by christofu
I'm certainly not advocating going off and suing the tracks. I think that would be bad. Any thoughts on what else would incent them to make their tracks as safe as can be?

Any more thoughts on this? I know how busy we can become and how we can brush aside being proactive.




Originally posted by NSR250SP

Speaking of track conditions, the AFM is in the process of putting together a team of people to walk the run off areas of the tracks we race on, and report back to the board, and track about possible issues they find. If you are interested in this, contact the board, and see how you can help.

Thanks,


Charles, do you know if they are planning to do a walk thru this weekend?

[Zed10R]

Originally posted by racercutie
Why do US tracks suck so much? I'm not just referring to lack of runoff, but pavement, grandstands or lack thereof
Why don't owners maintain them?

The answere to your question is the same answer for just about every question you can ask that has to do with why something or other sucks in this country. Here it is:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

No one gives a shit about anything else. Enthusiasts will still use the tracks regardless of thier condition, so why would the track owners want to spend that money on them? Nothing changes untill the flow of $$ is threatened, THEN shit changes REAL quick.

[NSR250SP]

Originally posted by Catfish

Charles, do you know if they are planning to do a walk thru this weekend?

Catfish,

During the last meeting, Jo Brett Williams (who is heading up the effort), was planning on doing it again. I would contact possibly Kevin Smith, or Greg Creech to get contact info for Jo Brett if your interested in helping out. The purpose is to check the run off areas of the track (not the track itself) for issues.

Thanks,

[karlitos]

Originally posted by dgrace
You've never been to Thunderhill, but that doesn't seem to keep you from dispensing advice about it. One wonders, given the near-magical state of tracks and culture in Europe that we keep hearing about, why you spend so much of your time posting here rather than enjoying your surroundings?
dave

Nope, never raced there. Seen it though (years ago). On board camara shows almost as much as riding it. Actually, it shows LESS than riding it (but far more than seeing the track). It does not take a genius that a wall (now moved back, i believe) right at corner exit is megastupid (and megadangerous) :rolleyes.

It is interesting that today Dennis Noyes (who has a two page spread) wrote the following....

"The winner of the superstock race at Daytona, Vincent Haskovec (31), of the Czech Republic, is now paralized after a brutal accident at a racetrack (Infineon-Sears point of Sonoma, California) that is an AMA Superbike championship sanctioned event; a track that would never would receive a homologation certificate by the RFME (Spain’s AMA).

Continues….

For 2005, and considering the problems that some world championship tracks have (PI, Donington, Sachsenring and the uncertainty of Laguna Seca); it is possible to say without
trepidation, that that the championships with the safest tracks are in this order: CEV (Spanish Roadracing Championship), MotoGP and World Superbike.

When the RFME decided not to certify The Jarama racetrack for the national series, I reacted with incredulity…

The Jarama requires modifications at the “tunnel”(last turn), Pegaso (T5) and the downhill to “Bugatti” (T9) to reclaim the national certification and perhaps FIM Superbikes.

En reality, there are two racetracks in the entire US Championship – Laguna Seca and Barber racetrack in Birmingham, Alabama – that is remotely close to the level of safety of El Jarama. And in Great Britain, there is only one track, Donington, that can be considered more safe than Jarama".

Of course, Noyes's opinion are also shit accoding to greats like HS and Trackho :hand Never mind that Noyes has been racing (US and Europe) when you guys were playing with Legos.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ok Karlitos, consider what you've said to a club of racers that just lost a racer to a wall last season. Think a second how smart that was. Fucking moron. The attitude all season was "T9's fun" until we lost one of our own...I was one of the few that hated T9/T10.

You are the one that wrote:

We race on what we have to race on...not cry about it. As I recall, many a Euro racer has been injured at these "safe" tracks you speak of. We're not talking about golf here...let's not assume we can sterlize safety.

It seems you are the fucking moron. "not cry about it" what a fucking idiot. :hand


The gravity of that situation was that the AFM was wrong and the AMA was correct, on track safety. After seeing the results of the T9 chicane at Sears work, the old T9 has proven to be a killer and nothing else. I applaud the AMA on this effort alone.

I am impressed :wow

:-|

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Trackho
My sentiments exactly---Carlitos, maybe you should ride one of our tracks before you ensue-the-spew

I have not ridden TH in particular, but enough ghetto tracks in the US. I did some endurance racing too. Some are downright scary, not so much due to the ghetto "runoff", but horrible surface as well. But you have not been here, have you?

[Holeshot]

Karlitos, in truth, no one here (maybe a small .1%) has any clue what you're talking about when you bring up these tracks in Spain none of us have ridden nore likely will ride. There's just no connection to these tales you tell.

I do question why you're on a Bay Area Forum. I'm not on a Spanish bike forum...none the less, you just keep racing your heaven's bliss of pavement and we'll ride what we've got here. We as riders are doing what we can, short of giving up and putting out the white flag (kinda like France in WWII). We're not gonna cry about it either. Or that 99' R6 you're lapping within 2 seconds of World SS, or whatever the latest heroic yarn you're spinning...

When you get back in the states, look us up in the lowly AFM/AMA. I'm always up for some free lessons from a Spanish GP star (just make sure to keep lying to me the whole time...). That is if the tracks are "Safe" enough for you to teach on. Or better yet, you can make that your first American ricer excuse!

And once again, you're a really weird guy.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by karlitos
I have not ridden TH in particular, but enough ghetto tracks in the US. I did some endurance racing too. Some are downright scary, not so much due to the ghetto "runoff", but horrible surface as well. But you have not been here, have you?

I started this thread to discuss some issues regarding a specific track. I'm sure there are terrific tracks in Europe. There are great tracks here in the USA. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. I don't care if fucking Stevie Wonder could roadrace in Spain and run off the track without getting hurt. You're diluting the thread with the EuroTrash talk.

[Catfish]

In an attempt to get back on track...........(hum, interesting pun.....),

Are there any gravel traps used on tracks here in the U.S., has anyone had experience with them, and is there a problem with using them in an area of elevation change like the outside of the carousel or the outside of turn 5.
(i.e. What's the pros and cons?)

[steve12345]

I recall reading that some turns at laguna are going to get gravel traps. It will be interesting to see how things work out. I trust that they'll be smooth, rather than the ridges that are put in for cars.
s

[Catfish]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the past...... http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2003-may/030520a.htm

from a booklet put out by Yamaha after Black Sunday, May 20, 1973:


"Yamaha Motor Co. Ltd. hope that this document will be studied by all people involved with motorcycle racing. Motorcycle racing always will involve an element of danger. It may be said that danger is necessary to bring out the qualities of a champion, when man and machine are striving for the ultimate performance. Unnecessary and senseless danger can, and should, be eliminated as a duty to the competitors. It is never too late to improve." Yamaha Motor Co. Ltd.

I challenge my fellow riders to not only be strive to be warriors on the track, but to strive to take on this "duty" and to proactively address improvements. You know..... the conventional wisdom...two heads are better than one......thus a hundred or so are far better. Even Karlito's perspective has merit ......please guys, save the posturing for a less serious topic! No more flaming for a change. Get around the severity of the issue.........think a bit about Vincent............picture carrying a collostrophy bag (sp) around because you're paralysed from the chest down. There's the real shit!

It begins with a thought process........ and then with dedication could result with tangible results. There's no battle/competition here. We are all on the same side. To find a way to make the sport safer.

Here's Team EMGO's request:

The entire Team M4 EMGO Suzuki crew thanks fans for their support of Vincent, and urges racetrack operators and motorcycle sanctioning bodies to focus on pro-actively placing soft barriers not just in front of walls that motorcycle racers have hit, but instead, in front of walls racers may hit

[Catfish]

p.s. See you guys out there this weekend.......Let's be safe out there!

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Holeshot
[B]Karlitos, in truth, no one here (maybe a small .1%) has any clue what you're talking about when you bring up these tracks in Spain none of us have ridden nore likely will ride. There's just no connection to these tales you tell.


No shieeet you have no clue :rolleyes


I do question why you're on a Bay Area Forum. I'm not on a Spanish bike forum...none the less, you just keep racing your heaven's bliss of pavement and we'll ride what we've got here. We as riders are doing what we can, short of giving up and putting out the white flag (kinda like France in WWII). We're not gonna cry about it either. Or that 99' R6 you're lapping within 2 seconds of World SS, or whatever the latest heroic yarn you're spinning...


Again with your masho BS. Whatever :hand

BTW. I never said I was lapping within 2 seconds of WSS :rolleyes. I wish. Actually, it would be impossible on my bike..and it is not a 99. Anyway, i suppose you are an azz in real life as well. Enjoy your third world track and i trust you will never, ever ride/race anything else.


When you get back in the states, look us up in the lowly AFM/AMA. I'm always up for some free lessons from a Spanish GP star (just make sure to keep lying to me the whole time...). That is if the tracks are "Safe" enough for you to teach on. Or better yet, you can make that your first American ricer excuse!

No need for an excuse, though Poensgen is said to complain about that and did not want to race. Though, unlike you, she is pussy, and you are blindingly faster.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Catfish
In an attempt to get back on track...........(hum, interesting pun.....),

Are there any gravel traps used on tracks here in the U.S., has anyone had experience with them, and is there a problem with using them in an area of elevation change like the outside of the carousel or the outside of turn 5.
(i.e. What's the pros and cons?)

You can "see" for yourself.

http://www.gsxrcup.com/2005/movies.asp

[ALANRIDER7]

Besides the one on your head, what is your point?

[kudzu]

Hey, all - wrt to everyone's comments on Infineon Safety, I think it's entirely beside the point to keep repeating that racing is inherently risky, etc. etc.

We in the US lag far behind EU in motorcycle track safety. There is no real, science-based standard for track safety. Armco barriers? Tires? Even with an air fence, you need something to slow you down before hitting it.

The FIM has standards based on turn radius, speed, etc. and mandates the use of gravel traps of a specific depth and slope.

As for mandating the use of turn 9a (the chicane) instead of 9, its obvious purpose is to slow riders down in 10 -- where it's easy to drift toward a CONCRETE barrier right next to the track. I like it, in any case, it makes a very technical track even more so. Just requires more discipline and concentration.

I'm not suggesting that they clean up the Isle of Man TT, where they have averaged more than one fatality each year of the event since its inception -- but for racing circuits that are built for that purpose, we should look to a higher standard.

It's true that things have improved, but not enough. I know that it takes money, but more than that it requires motivation. MotoGP did not run at Suzuka last year because the riders were talking boycott. Laguna Seca made improvements in order to bring the track up to FIM standards and host a GP event on US soil for the first time in many years.

Tracks cannot be designed to protect against all injuries in the event of a crash -- but many very bad results seem to me to have been avoidable, including Hascovec's injury.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by Catfish

Are there any gravel traps used on tracks here in the U.S., has anyone had experience with them, and is there a problem with using them in an area of elevation change like the outside of the carousel or the outside of turn 5.
(i.e. What's the pros and cons?)

Well, i did post the video link since i suppose an image is worth a thousand words... But, for those who will not experience GP type gravel unless they run off at Laguna seca :teeth

Anyway, here goes my experience (at different tracks).

Gravel is usually quite deep. Most of the time it is not possible to ride out without assistance. Sometimes it is possible -- depending on corner (ie. faster entry, like T1, will usually be deeper). Bike slows down quick (a lot more than dirt), and the bike may bounce, but is mostly sliding all over..and sometimes threatens to spat you off at speed, as the rear tire is too wide. But, the supension as one may guess, feels soft and does not bottom out.

But it is still possible to go mighty fast on deep gravel (with the bike bouncing and sliding all over), and still go pretty darn far.
My fastest on gravel has been rolling off the throttle in 4th, well take that back.. 5th (to avoid ramming another guy..i ran off the curbing straight on the grass and straight into the gravel without being able to brake..i think.

It is possible to crash on gravel but mostly because one is going in with the bike out of shape, leaned or not straight. But that would be expected.

I have personally "tested" the gravel trap once -- flying backwards and thus landing the same way. Quite soft. Only time i ever hit my head with something. Muuuuch better than dirt (got a dirtbike too).

Since i have been off smooth dirt and gravel..i prefer gravel. It slows down a lot more and is not bumpy as well. Softer to fall if that is case.

[karlitos]

Originally posted by kudzu
Hey, all - wrt to everyone's comments on Infineon Safety, I think it's entirely beside the point to keep repeating that racing is inherently risky, etc. etc.

We in the US lag far behind EU in motorcycle track safety. There is no real, science-based standard for track safety. Armco barriers? Tires? Even with an air fence, you need something to slow you down before hitting it.

The FIM has standards based on turn radius, speed, etc. and mandates the use of gravel traps of a specific depth and slope.

As for mandating the use of turn 9a (the chicane) instead of 9, its obvious purpose is to slow riders down in 10 -- where it's easy to drift toward a CONCRETE barrier right next to the track. I like it, in any case, it makes a very technical track even more so. Just requires more discipline and concentration.

I'm not suggesting that they clean up the Isle of Man TT, where they have averaged more than one fatality each year of the event since its inception -- but for racing circuits that are built for that purpose, we should look to a higher standard.

It's true that things have improved, but not enough. I know that it takes money, but more than that it requires motivation. MotoGP did not run at Suzuka last year because the riders were talking boycott. Laguna Seca made improvements in order to bring the track up to FIM standards and host a GP event on US soil for the first time in many years.

Tracks cannot be designed to protect against all injuries in the event of a crash -- but many very bad results seem to me to have been avoidable, including Hascovec's injury.

Excellent post. An enlightened barfer :teeth :p

It will be interesting to hear the opinion on LS improvements from AMA pros. Perhaps, it may pave (no pun intended) to greater safety on American tracks.