new suspension

[nine]

Alright fellas,

Need your advice. I'm going to take the plunge and dole out some cash to get my suspension done. I've already decided to go with Aftershocks to get the forks redone with Racetech parts. Now, the only question is what shock to get for the rear. I'm a bit partial to Penske (because of past experiences with their product and service on an old race car), but I'm not sure whether it is such a great idea if I don't get their top of the line. My other consideration is Ohlins.

FYI:
- I have no intentions of racing.
- I believe I'm running about 2:13's at T-hill
- I expect to get quicker as I've only been to 3 trackdays.
- I weigh ~200lbs without gear
- The bike is an '02 R1

Any input is greatly appreciated. I will likely purchase the shock within 2 weeks and get everything done when the shock arrives.

Thanks,

-nine

[mikeyjudkins]

I do not own one myself :cry, but the consensus among alot of suspension fanatics is a Traxxion-spec'd Penske (http://www.traxxion.com/products.shock.shtml) (8987 or 8981) shock is DA BOMB. You might want to read up on their fork products (http://www.traxxion.com/store/product_pages/products.fork.asp) also.

[nine]

Thanks mikey. Anyone else with comments/suggestions?

[hank]

talk with the guys at aftershocks first. they'll tell you more than you'll ever need to know about suspension.

[budman]

I am an Ohlin boy..Works great..I am 200 lbs..almost and I have had many. I do agree a phone call to Phil at Aftershocks would be a good source for really good input!


:smoking

[nine]

I called aftershocks, but did not get to talk to Phil. Dude on the phone, Dan, suggested that I go with RaceTech springs and valve kit. He was also steering me toward a Fox shock. He suggested that the Penkse 8987 would be a bit of overkill for my purposes and that the 8981 would be fine. This shock is actually an 8900 series shock body with and 8100 series compression adjuster which only has 6 positions for compression adjustment. The 8987 uses the same shock body but utilizes the two speed 8760 compression adjuster.

I combed the net and found the 8981 going for as low as $724.

hmmm...I also found Ohlins triple adjustable (high and low speed compression) going for ~$875.

So my dilema is:
Penske 8981 $724
Penske 8987 $995
Ohlins (triple) $875

I'm not thaaaat price sensitive, but I do want value for the money and generally try to avoid overkill (but then again, I ride an R1 :p)

[Matt.Lai]

I've got a Penske on my racebike and an Ohlins on my streetbike. Why? Why not!

I bought my first penske several years ago for my EX500 racebike. I purchased it used from some guy on an internet list. It came via UPS as-is, dirty and without any instructions. I was curious about a few things so I called the the Penske MC shop (in PA, I believe) and they asked me for my address.

Without my requesting it, two days later I received a FedEx package with a complete 30-page shock manual, a bunch of stickers and a cloth patch. I couldn't believe it. A few months later I called because the compression knob had lost its sticker and I didn't know which numbered "click" it was on. The tech on the phone told me that that particular knob was from a preproduction unit run and that they had started using stamped numbers on their knobs. Quess what? He sent me a brand new updated knob free of charge. I really can't say enough about the excellent customer relations.

The bottom line is that both the Ohlins and Penske are great pieces of hardware -- you really can't go wrong with either.

[Trackho]

Ohlins has the remote hydraulic preload--Penske does not---the new 4-way adjtable Ohlins is sweet---I have the older 2-way on my 929 and love it---If you decide on an Ohlins--support is ctrical(spring usually)--I would only buy it from Dan Kyle as he is the only authorized Ohlins service center I am aware of---here is a link

Ohlins via Dan K (http://www.kyleusa.com/catalog/ohlins_rear_shock_yamaha_r1_2002-2003_1225746.htm)

[wei7]

I dont know if you have heard about BiTubo. I have it on my bike and worked well. The spring ran a little heavy for me but a great shock anyways. Ohlins is always a good pick to just because ease of use. A friend of mine has Ohlins on his bike and loves it. Good luck and if you need BiTubo just PM me for a price.

[Robert R1]

Here's some stuff from Chuck Graves about the 02:

On raising the rear:

"I hate to be a stick in the mud . Raising the rear is a bad idea ( hi CG, adds to much swingarm angle,decreases trail.)Lowering the front would be better if you feel you need to do this.What you are doing is making the bike easier to turn - not making it turn faster- If you want it to turn faster you should use more physical energy to make it turn .this is where many go wrong. what you should do is make the front grip better so the bike will stick when you flick it into the corner. you can do this in many ways. adding trail will help. most bikes have their own needs as do riders so if you go to a computrac and install sweet numbers just make sure the setup works for your bike and you. "


On rear shock link:

">Hi Chuck. I was wondering,
>what exactly does the Graves
>rear suspension link
>accomplish? Raise the rear,
>drop the rear, achive a
>different range of travel? And
>how does it affect the bike's
>handling?
>
>Rice, the link does not change the ride height at all. It is designed to change the shox to wheel travel relationship from stock. The stock link is a flat ratio with almost no change as the wheel travels through the stroke. We make three different types of links. They are designed to work for different conditions ( race tracks, ride needs , tires) most will never need more than the link we sell.( though they are avalible but by special order only)The link we sell will add -more mechanical traction,makes the top of the stroke softer for the small bumps and firms up for the big bumps- this link we find is the best for all around street and track use. >"

His Racebike setup:

"Hope this will not piss off anyone on the forum. I just thought I'd tell the truth. This weekend I rode my stock street 2002 R-1 in the open super stock race at Willow springs. just in case some members are not familiar with this class it is for production based 1000 cc bikes in WSMC competition. It is highly contested by the manufactures Yamaha and Suzuki both paying out large sums of money to the winners.( I won 1300.00 for the win 300.00 from Dunlop And 1000.00 from Yamaha)I won the race by over 15 seconds besting the Gsxr1000s of Jack Pifier and Factory Suzuki rider for team Valvoline suzuki's Chris ulrich. And here are the settings that I used to win the race.
engine stock 2002 R-1 no Mods
fuel - VP MR1
pipe - Graves full ty pipe
chasis-
forks valving all stock parts with minor shim stacks changes ( I posted these some months ago)
springs- .90
pre load- 6 lines showing (this is easiest for all to understand)
fork hieght - stock
comp - 7 clicks out
rebound - 13 clicks out
Shock 2002 Ohlins with high low settings
comp low - 12 clicks
comp high - stock ohlins setting
rebound - 13
spring - 8.5
preload 10mm
lenght- 297mm 3mm shorter that stock R-1
Tires- Dunlop D208GP
gearing - 16-46 3 up from stock
rider weight 150 lbs
all other parts are stock as recieved from the dealership with the exception of rearsets and handlebars and a steering dampner.
I was very impressed with the handling and felt that I could go much faster than I did by the way I was under the old track record for this class.
I am posting this because I feel that the info I gave some time ago about the stock fork components being of the highest quality has been overlooked. Sorry to say that I do not have time to make these mods for the public I would be happy to share this info with a shop that could make these mods for the general public . If any has some idea of who can handle this let me know . "


This should be a good starting point for you.

[nine]

Damn Robert! You could have just posted a link! :twofinger
nah, seriously...thanks. I read that I while ago and forgot all about it.

Ok. Originally, I was leaning toward the Penske, but after the testimonials and the tiny reminder from Robert, it's pretty much a coin toss.

Keep the feedback flowing though, I won't make a decision without pontificating for a couple of days longer.


-nine

[Robert R1]

A bit on info the on front forks:


" The 02 forks are very good we have done testing with these the only changes needed are as follows increase rebound replenish valve to 1.6 mm and change shim stacks for type of riding and spring for rider weight. You do not what to change the comp or rebound piston they are of top quality and the forks mimic the same as used in after market high performance sus.( good forks )"

I rather copy and past and save these as record on this forum for my own use also, when I get my fork re worked this winter.

[nine]

So who is going to work on your forks?

[donoman]

This thing looks like a penis pump. Not that I own one.

http://www.penskeshocks.com/Wt_Jacker.jpg

[nine]

Originally posted by donoman
This thing looks like a penis pump. Not that I own one.

http://www.penskeshocks.com/Wt_Jacker.jpg


:laughing :laughing :laughing

uhhh......yeeeaaahh....o.k.


btw. I think I'm going to drop some $$$ on a Penske 8987 tomorrow. Hopefully, I'll have time to pull the forks off the bike this weekend and will drop them off at Aftershocks for a revalve and new springs. They reccomended 0.95kg/mm springs, but my fat ass is thinking that I might need 1.0's.

hmmmm....of course I could try to lose 25 lbs. :p

[Matt.Lai]

Originally posted by Trackho
Ohlins has the remote hydraulic preload--Penske does not---the new 4-way adjtable Ohlins is sweet---I have the older 2-way on my 929 and love it---If you decide on an Ohlins--support is ctrical(spring usually)--I would only buy it from Dan Kyle as he is the only authorized Ohlins service center I am aware of---here is a link

Ohlins via Dan K (http://www.kyleusa.com/catalog/ohlins_rear_shock_yamaha_r1_2002-2003_1225746.htm)

I don't think its always the best idea to have too many things to click (4-way shocks). There are already enough permuatations with just low-speed compression and rebound to turn most sensible riders into drooling, babbling slack-jaws. My heart desires a 4-way adjustable shock, but I know if I had one the holy grail of "good setup" would likely become more and more elusive.

Most good shocks are built to order. High speed compression and high speed rebound damping won't need adjustable "clickers" if you and your tuner have selected a suitable shimstack for your riding purposes & style.

[Big Daddy]

nine,

The info Robert R1 posted is very consistant with what I've been able to gather up regarding the front forks and what needs to be modded on the 02 R1. So far I've been unable to find a suspension outfit that doesn't want to change the comp & rebound valves and just simply rearrange the shim stack to suit the riders needs. I'm also considering trying 5wt oil as opposed to 10wt. (not sure what stock is) :blush and of course use the proper spring rate for my large a**:wow .

BTW, Robert if you would either email me the shim stack changes or post them when time permits that would be great, thank you.

BD

[Trackho]

Most good shocks are built to order. ----So why does Ohlins outsell Penske 4- to 1????

I think this is a complete myth--It is Penske's myth---true---you need the correct spring---which can be an iterative process---but I know many people w/Penske "custom" shocks that were less than thrilled w/them
Talk to unbiased people that have had experience w/both---before you decide

[Matt.Lai]

Originally posted by Trackho
----So why does Ohlins outsell Penske 4- to 1????

I think this is a complete myth--It is Penske's myth---true---you need the correct spring---which can be an iterative process---but I know many people w/Penske "custom" shocks that were less than thrilled w/them
Talk to unbiased people that have had experience w/both---before you decide

Trackho: I've got both an Ohlins and a Penske and I like both. I didn't mean to insult your shock because it didn't have custom valving. Box-stock Ohlins valving is great. And I didn't mean to imply that you absolutely had to have a custom built shock. My post primarly was intended to express my opinion that 4-way shocks are of little use to most of us.

I think that your friends who've been "less than thrilled" may have not had good communication with their builder. Either the builder didn't understand the rider's needs or the rider himself asked for something he didn't need. Shock internals are not that unique from brand to brand, unless you get the Works Performance stuff, which has a strange checkball/spring valving arrangement. In other words, anything will work well if the proper internal pieces are selected, regardless of brand or if it is off the shelf or custom.

Which is best? In my opinion, its a wash, with the caveat that the Penske buyer select a good builder AND also understands suspension enough to ask for his/her specific valving needs. If you happen to be an easygoing sunday twisty rider, you should tell your builder that. Some guys always ask for "race" stuff, no matter where or how they ride. That can be a problem.

[Trackho]

Which is best? In my opinion, its a wash, with the caveat that the Penske buyer select a good builder AND also understands suspension enough to ask for his/her specific valving needs. If you happen to be an easygoing sunday twisty rider, you should tell your builder that. Some guys always ask for "race" stuff, no matter where or how they ride. That can be a problem.

---It came up when I was talking to John Cochell (1:5X at T-Hill) --about a Penske for my XX, Ohlins is on the 929(I run 2:03-2:05s)---who is running them on both his GSXR1 and 929---John is quite conversant on suspension/valving---shock was "built" by Lindemann---John still had to change out the spring---wasnt thrilled with the valving----My "point" about the "custom" sales pitch is that it may or may not be "perfect" for everyone---so if that is the "determining factor"---take it w/a grain of salt--especially if they are fast

[nine]

Originally posted by Trackho
----So why does Ohlins outsell Penske 4- to 1????

I think this is a complete myth--It is Penske's myth---true---you need the correct spring---which can be an iterative process---but I know many people w/Penske "custom" shocks that were less than thrilled w/them
Talk to unbiased people that have had experience w/both---before you decide

I got a feeling that everyone is going to be biased in one way or another, but I'll take your advice. Hell, I've already resigned myself to spending over $1k for the shock. Now that I've gotten over that mental hurdle, it's just a matter of picking which one.

btw I am personally biased towards Penske because I've had nothing but good experiences with their service AND because they are :flag

[Robert R1]

Diff. folks, diff. strokes. I'm sure they are both VERY nice shocks and much better than OEM. Can't go wrong either way. Personally, I will go with Ohlins, it looks prettier.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Big Daddy
nine,

The info Robert R1 posted is very consistant with what I've been able to gather up regarding the front forks and what needs to be modded on the 02 R1. So far I've been unable to find a suspension outfit that doesn't want to change the comp & rebound valves and just simply rearrange the shim stack to suit the riders needs. I'm also considering trying 5wt oil as opposed to 10wt. (not sure what stock is) :blush and of course use the proper spring rate for my large a**:wow .

BTW, Robert if you would either email me the shim stack changes or post them when time permits that would be great, thank you.

BD

Join the www.yzf-r1forum.com and Post you questions to Chuck Graves himself. He will answer them and give you the best route. I also need to find a shop that will just do the shim stacks and not change the internals.

[Matt.Lai]

Originally posted by Trackho
---It came up when I was talking to John Cochell (1:5X at T-Hill) --about a Penske for my XX, Ohlins is on the 929(I run 2:03-2:05s)---who is running them on both his GSXR1 and 929---John is quite conversant on suspension/valving---shock was "built" by Lindemann---John still had to change out the spring---wasnt thrilled with the valving----My "point" about the "custom" sales pitch is that it may or may not be "perfect" for everyone---so if that is the "determining factor"---take it w/a grain of salt--especially if they are fast

Who selected the wrong spring for John? That really shouldn't happen, especially if the person is "quite conversant." Maybe Jim fu@ked up?

Look, the reason you're not breaking 2:00 at Thunderhill on a 929 has nothing to do with an Ohlins or a Penske. That motorcycle is capable of doing so with either. My times on my SV650 aren't exactly setting the world on fire either, but I'm fairly certain my choice of shock has nothing to do with it at this point.

Its like buying bikes -- at a certain point the qualitative difference between certain models of the same class is quite insignificant and you may as well decide to buy the one that you think is cool.

[Trackho]

Look, the reason you're not breaking 2:00 at Thunderhill on a 929 has nothing to do with an Ohlins or a Penske---No Shit---. That motorcycle is capable of doing so with either. ----No Kidding---I was tyring to quantify where I was coming from--- not compare times---my point was that BOTH are excellent shocks-----and all this "custom stuff" isn't necessarily the Ultimate----racers still need to understand set--up other things---
Just curious what times are you turning on the SV??

[nine]

Originally posted by Trackho
----No Kidding---I was tyring to quantify where I was coming from--- not compare times---my point was that BOTH are excellent shocks-----and all this "custom stuff" isn't necessarily the Ultimate----racers still need to understand set--up other things---
Just curious what times are you turning on the SV??

The difference between an "off the shelf" shock and a custom valved shock is about $150.

Thoughts?

[Matt.Lai]

Originally posted by Trackho
---
Just curious what times are you turning on the SV??

Ah, I've got excuses as long as my arm -- just moved here from NYC, stock-motored SV, first set foot on TH at June's AFM event, the sun was in my eyes, I had a tummy ache, I had temporary amnesia. . . I could go on and on. . .

But as much as I hate to admit it, I'm a midpacker for now, and that's the truth. Best recorded time was 2:05:662 during F1 last month. I'm a slow learner and I think I'll be able to shave some seconds with some more seat time at both local tracks. At some point, however, I won't be able to use the excuse that I'm new to these tracks anymore. . . then I'm screwed.

-Matt

[sportbikenight]

To stick up for fellow SV riders everywhere, I think MLai_AFM#138 beat me a few times this year.

The shock thing goes like this, in my opinion:

The Penske will perform good right out of the box, no valving, adjusting, etc.......

The Ohlins will work better than the Penske, but you have to have it tuned a bit for the rider, or re-valved.

If you do not like taking the swing-arm stuff apart go for the Penske, if you want to tinker with the shock get the Ohlins.

Coin toss time,

[Matt.Lai]

Jason: Thanks, but, uh, "a few times" is a bit of an overstatement. You and the front runners always checked out early all season -- I couldn't even suck on the exhaust fumes. Therefore, I was absolutely stoked when I passed you at the last TH event. However, I later heard that you refused to buy a new rear tire and, thus, were skating around for dear life on a torn ball of rubber cement. Dang, felt good while it lasted!

Well, there is always next season. . .

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Join the www.yzf-r1forum.com and Post you questions to Chuck Graves himself. He will answer them and give you the best route. I also need to find a shop that will just do the shim stacks and not change the internals.
Why not Graves themselves?

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by nine
The difference between an "off the shelf" shock and a custom valved shock is about $150.

Thoughts?

Look, if you're not a racer and not a guru with suspension, skip the triple/ 4X adjustable shocks. They really are not that easy to set up.

I went with an 8100 series Penkse and am quite happy, but at my current level, wish it had more compression adjustments. However, it still allows me to run a good clip at Sears and T-hill on it.

My 99 R6 had an Ohlins. That was a great shock as well, but all things being equal, the folks up in Redding PA (Penske) are just the best to work with. If you're having issues setting the thing up, they'll help you dial it in!

One last note: Buy the shock from Max or Jim, who can set it up correctly for you, instead of the cheapest place on the net. It might be $50 more or so, but it will be done correctly, and they can help you setup the shock when you have no idea which way to turn things! (as I've gotten better at )

[sportbikenight]

>>Why not Graves themselves?

Chuck Graves, from willow springs racing fame, started the company. Chuck, himself, will answer questions like this.

[Sage]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Why not Graves themselves?

from the looks of his (CG's) pasted post, he dosent have the time to do low budget work like a fork revalve?

Hell, if he dosent want to do it and is open with his set up info.... uuhhhh, send all R1 forks to Oregon....

[rapidrobbie]

I am using a Bitubo on my GSXR,and I had the forks done by Traxxion Dynamics.I have used Penske also,and they are really good.If you go ohlins,make sure it will come set-up for you/your bike.I have seen a few come with crazy spring weights,not even close for the application,but an excellent shock once set-up.I tried the Bitubo as an experiment and I love it!...Robbie

[nine]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Look, if you're not a racer and not a guru with suspension, skip the triple/ 4X adjustable shocks. They really are not that easy to set up.

I went with an 8100 series Penkse and am quite happy, but at my current level, wish it had more compression adjustments. However, it still allows me to run a good clip at Sears and T-hill on it.

My 99 R6 had an Ohlins. That was a great shock as well, but all things being equal, the folks up in Redding PA (Penske) are just the best to work with. If you're having issues setting the thing up, they'll help you dial it in!

One last note: Buy the shock from Max or Jim, who can set it up correctly for you, instead of the cheapest place on the net. It might be $50 more or so, but it will be done correctly, and they can help you setup the shock when you have no idea which way to turn things! (as I've gotten better at )

Thanks for the offer on helping with set up. I'll likely need it. As for getting a shock that might be overkill at this point...well, it's like an early Christmas present to myself. And yes, I plan on having an experienced suspension tuner (considering someone like Phil at Aftershocks or Randolph at Honda Milpitas because they are local) do the fork work and initial setup.