Questions for Keith Code regarding riding skills - Round One

[budman]

**************************************
EDIT: This Thread has been closed. Please read it before asking a question in the Round Two thread. Thanks! ... :smoking

**************************************

So we are going to light up this portion of the Training forum and this is how it is going to work.

Please post your question for Keith in this thread. I would request that all questions be real and that no bullshit is thrown in here. Keith is one of the most knowledgable Road Racing Coaches/ Trainers / Riders around. I have had the pleasure of riding with his school many times and attended the advance racing school many moons ago and it made a huge difference in my control and knowledge.

Keith will select questions,prepare answers and open a new thread with his take on how to make your knowledge base grow..and help you get faster, smoother etc.

He is off and running around the world so don't expect immediate responses... won't happen. :p It may be one or two weeks before he gets them answered. I will collect them and put them in a sticky for other future reference.

I will monitor the thread and discuss any items with Keith that need to be. I hope that the membership can respect my request to be above board and treat this as it is due. Time and effort from a busy guy to help you out.

Please fire away.. and be good. ;)

:smoking

[squid vicious]

Ok, i'v got one:

I cannot judge entrance speed. Are there any drills/excercises that can help, or is that a matter of saddle time?

[gar1013]

I've got one as well:

What is the best technique for controlling speed for a downhill turn with regards to braking and engine compression braking, especially if you're dealing with multiple turns on the downhill?

[Keith Code]

squid vicious and gar13

Entry speed is for sure one of the keys to good control. Fast or slow, uphill or downhill, having confidence that you can get it right solves a lot and frees up your attention. I wrote an article on this not too long ago. Here you go.

The Fine Art of Braking

By survey 100% of over 10,000 riders agree on this point: they know that if they possessed the ability and skill to get their turn entry speeds consistently right, their confidence would soar; they would feel more in control; they would be faster and they would be smoother. Here is some information on why you might want to master that ability.


Coasting Races

In the mid ‘70's I was introduced to an amazing form of “racing”. Four or five of us would get together at the top of one of our favorite southern California canyon descents; turn off the engines; line up across the road; heckle each other; count to three; pick up our feet without pushing off any more than was necessary to get moving and laugh and yell out insults to one another all the way down to the bottom. Most of the runs were a couple of miles long with lots of turns. That’s a coasting race.

The rider who coasted the farthest and fastest (they were usually the same rider) “won”. There weren’t any tricks, equipment mattered little, it was all you. Well, I did have one little trick -- pushing the pads back into my front caliper to eliminate the pad drag.

The camaraderie was elevated enormously by the fact that, unlike our usual canyon rides we could, for the most part, communicate throughout the descent. It was such a delight. Even when it went wrong and someone crashed (like me) I still have fond memories and get a warm sensation when recalling it.


Strategy of Coasting Races

On the technical side of things: I was immediately impressed with several aspects of this form of entertainment and a couple of those points were indelibly printed in my memory and became a part of the California Superbike School over 20 years ago.

The simple trick to winning a coasting race is the obvious, the rider who could maintain his momentum by using his brakes the least generally would prevail. Doing an entire run down some of the steeper roads with little or no braking took as much or more mental grip than doing it with them, this becoming immediately apparent in the first semi-tight corner you came to. Unwilling to give up the momentum yet afraid of the speed which had accumulated, your focus and interest became laser sharp.

Sure your hand would be poised over the lever and sure it took some supreme acts of willpower to keep from using brakes and sure you would make errors and have to use the brakes but you also paid closer attention to the speeds than you normally would. The reduction of distractions like engine noise and gear changes and throttle and charging the corners with hard braking were all eliminated and it allowed you to make much finer estimates of your corner entry speeds and maintain that precious momentum.


Low Noise, High Speeds

After my first coasting race I realized I never would have gone through those turns with the power on as fast as I had done with no engine running, no charging and, for the most part, no brakes. It made me realize just how distracting those things really were and just how much of my attention they absorbed.

One of the things I have noticed when I watch students is how erratic their turn entry speeds often are. That comes from the idea they have to charge the corners and brake hard but they can tend to over-brake and foul up their entry and corner speed momentum.


Low Speeds, Quick Times

One day, as I was driving up to the Laguna Seca track in northern California to do a school, I realized that if anyone was going to overcome this self generated confusion from over-braking, the quickest route to that was riding no brakes.

Once I got to the track I tried it out and rediscovered what I’d already figured out before from the coasting races. I went faster into the turns, my speed sense and judgement became sharper, I worried less about my entry speed and found that getting back to the throttle earlier was significantly easier. I thought it would be worthwhile to have the students try it out.

While it is true that some tracks lend themselves to this form of sharpening your riding skills better than others, I did begin to notice a trend at different tracks. The riders who stuck with the no brakes, even after we officially switched back to using them, made more improvement in their speed and confidence than those who were “testing” our brake pad material by charging the turns.


Ignore the Instincts

It’s almost as if riders feel obligated to charge turns. It’s the idea that you will go faster because of it and seems such a simple and direct route to that end but rarely works. The instinct to brake late and hard is like clubbing a female to then take her for a wife. That plan isn’t going to work.

I have observed many truly diligent riders who ignored the instinct and stayed with the No Brakes format knocking off seconds from their lap times. To top it off they were achieving their quicker times with only one or two gears instead of the usual thrashing through the gear box. They might be going 20 mph slower on the straights but one should pay attention to the results (improved lap times and corner speed) not the impulse to go fast on the straights.

As I have said a thousand times, the brakes become more of a crutch than a tool for most riders. Someone always whines about the no-brakes riding format at school. Well, crutches are notoriously hard to put down, aren’t they? Riders claim it is difficult (of course it is), that they could go faster with them (faster down the straight away, yes); that they “had” to use them (the crutch again) and on and on.

What these riders don’t realize is how satisfying it is to persevere at the exercise until you really get it, so you really can judge your entry speeds and really know you can do it. Very, very satisfying. Very, very big contribution to your riding confidence. Very!


The Basic Idea

The logic is flawless. Using or not using the brakes is irrelevant to the intended result of getting into the corner at the exact right speed. One either knows what that right speed is and can achieve it or they are guessing. If they are guessing they are paying more attention to it than they should have to. Guessing brings about inaccurate braking and inaccurate braking brings about rough and uncertain turn entries.


Trail Braking

(Definition: Action of trailing off or tapering off brake lever pressure and braking force as the rider enters the corner.) Trail braking is a valid and useful tool for any rider at any level of riding. The warning is this: when used too often, or as a crutch to calm the fear brought on by the inability to sense speeds accurately, it not only doesn’t solve the source of the problem it makes it worse.

As the pilot you must make the decision on when to let off of the brake(s). It is a complicated little piece of work with all of the other usual distractions you encounter at the turn’s entry, e.g., setting the lean, getting the line and feeling the traction. Bottom line –- if you are trailing the brakes towards a well known, accurately understood speed it is a tool. Otherwise it tends to become a crutch and invites riders to “charge” the turns, low line them, leave the throttle till late and make tricky and sometimes dangerous mid-corner steering corrections all of which could be avoided with accurate turn entry speed sensing and setting.


Panic Crutch

In contrast to the aforementioned, I see many riders who feel compelled to stab at their brakes in the last moments before entering a corner. While watching them do it, the only conclusion one would come to is that the speed was a big surprise; all of a sudden they become aware of it and it seemed too fast. This is an obvious error. They aren’t using the brake to adjust anything except their fear. In either of the above cases, an accurate sense of speed opens the door to confidence.


Results Then and Now

The essence and final result of any brake release for cornering remains what I said in 1980 in my first Superbike School lecture and on page 64 of the first “A Twist of the Wrist” book in 1982: To set the speed of the bike correctly for that place on the track (or road) so that no further changes are necessary. In other words, you get it right. Not too fast, not too slow.

Braking itself is an art within the art of cornering. Your sense-of-speed is the underlying resource you have to get it right. As an exercise, no brakes riding will help improve your sense-of-speed. Do no-brakes whenever you have the opportunity and see what happens to your sense of speed and see what happens to your riding. The best part is that once you have combined a good sense of speed with the other twelve basic skills of cornering it all begins to come together.

It is truly one of the skills that allows you to discover the ART OF CORNERING.

All the best,
Keith

-----
Copyright Keith Code, 2006, all rights reserved

[squid vicious]

Originally posted by Keith Code
all of a sudden they become aware of it and it seemed too fast. This is an obvious error. They aren’t using the brake to adjust anything except their fear. .




:thumbup this is exactly what I'm experiencing. Guess I'll be pulling my brake lever off for Reno/Fernley (kidding, of course)

[Wrong Way]

I have a question

Assuming a rider has a good concept of their speed and they are not charging the corners, can using the rear brake be beneficial? I have heard many fast riders exclaim, “The rear brake is the devil.” However, I have a sense that I can go deeper if I use the rear brake. Of course this is if everything else is going well, i.e. my line doesn’t suffer, I don’t trail to far into the turn, I time the rear brake with my downshifting and RPM’s correctly. I have experienced too much rear brake where the chassis gets upset, but the flipside is a nice solid feeling.

Is it just an illusion that my turning is better?
.

[Shunter/Get-Off]

I second Wrong Way's question.

Mike

P.S. Mario, stop asking questions. I think you are quite fast enough, thank you.

[myap]

I have one in reference to this recent poll. (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157140)

Really a question for track conditions, but certainly does apply to certain conditions on the street as well...

Do you reach maximum lean angle before or after applying maintenance throttle?

Thanks in advance!

[rsrider]

I have a question about the no BS bike and body steering. I just read Pridmore's book and there are some good things in there, but I'm not getting the body steering stuff. When I go into a corner, I'm counter steering and leaning. My body naturally weights the inside peg and my outside leg presses against the tank. But it seems that I would still get around the corner with just counter steering, but I couldn't make it if I just weighted the peg and placed pressure outside of the tank. Were you addressing Pridmore when you created the no BS bike?

[Keith Code]

Wrong Way

What's the point in using two controls when one will do the job (front brake does the job). Also, I guess Rossi didn't need it last Sunday or the footpeg for that matter to go fast enough to take back some positions.

Myap

What is maintenance throttle?

RS RIder

Put your feet on the passenger pegs
out on a nice road sometime and ride the corners. If it works out then footpeg weighting is useless isn't it?

PS: be sure to grip the tank with both knees for the experiment just for stability on the bike.

Putting knee pressure on the tank is like trying to push your car by pressing on the dashboard from the driver's seat position.

Keith

[ALANRIDER7]

Your attention span and ability to concentrate has it's limits.

The front brake is where your focus should be for maximum efficiency. Adding the rear brake to the equation takes away some of your ability to monitor what the front is doing.

The better you are at using the front brake, the less net effect the rear brake will have because of weight transfer.

Using the rear may "feel" better, but in actuality it can be worse overall.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2361385-front_brakes.jpg

[squid vicious]

I'm slow, so don't listen to me....

But...

I still think a picture of a bike lofting the rear is not an argument against using the rear brake. Good luck turning the thing with any sort smoothness with that rear up like that. If the rear is on the ground (where it's supposed to be) then it's one more contact patch and that much more braking ability (say, during trail braking). Mr. Code argues "rossi didn't need his..." but then how many stories are there of racers attaching a thumb brake for the rear. Why use one tool when you've got two to compliment one another?

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by squid vicious
I'm slow, so don't listen to me....

But...

I still think a picture of a bike lofting the rear is not an argument against using the rear brake. Good luck turning the thing with any sort smoothness with that rear up like that. If the rear is on the ground (where it's supposed to be) then it's one more contact patch and that much more braking ability (say, during trail braking). Mr. Code argues "rossi didn't need his..." but then how many stories are there of racers attaching a thumb brake for the rear. Why use one tool when you've got two to compliment one another?
Umm, I'm pretty sure prior to initiating that turn, he will have gotten the rear down and finished all his hard braking as well as set up for the turn...If he doesn't bad things could happen....

[Keith Code]

Squid Visicous

Seen any thumb brakes recently on any top rider's bike?

Keith

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
The front brake is where your focus should be for maximum efficiency. Adding the rear brake to the equation takes away some of your ability to monitor what the front is doing. Using K. Code discussion techniques: Apparently not according to Doohan.

In reality, there are some people, that at some times that cannot effectively use both brakes at the same time. Yet, some people can and do win championships using the rear brake, so your thought may not apply. Some humans are pretty good at adapting and learning.

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
The better you are at using the front brake, the less net effect the rear brake will have because of weight transfer.
Maybe, but that doesn't take into account how using the rear brake can compress the rear suspension and delay the weight transfer you refer to.

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Using the rear may "feel" better, but in actuality it can be worse overall.
Using ANY control improperly can worsen a given situation. Why must the only choice be 'stop using the rear brake' instead of 'use the rear brake correctly' (for a given situation)?

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Squid Visicous

Seen any thumb brakes recently on any top rider's bike?

Keith

See any top riders here on BARF?

Thats not really an effective way of helping someone understand why your (implied) advice to not use the rear brake is 'correct'.

Also, it doesn't take into effect the engine braking that all top teams are trying to manage (read that as USE) to their advantage. Braking the rear wheel seems to be usefull enough for them to try and control thru electronics and slipper clutches, but not with the rear brake? When Duhammel, Hayden, Doohan, and Hale were using it, did it not offer an advantage to them at that time? Wee they not better then than nearly all of the people reading this now?

One thing that these discussions keep missing is the element of the street. Not everyone should be trying to be faster. Not everone wants to race, not to mention that not everone should. Since 1982 I've encountered many people that feel that the rear brake is NOT supposed to be used. Many of these people are 'students' of CCS either by attending the school, or by reading the books. I'm ok with the idea that there is a time and place for the rear brake, but the idea that one should never use it, that is crazy.

I'm reminded that 20 or so years ago the general consensus was that the FRONT brake was to be avoided. Now it's the rear. People learn, people adapt. The trick is to correctly use the 'tools' we are given. Not just give them up because (at the moment) you cannot do it correctly.

I'm a firm believer that at times, someone can get overwhelmed with all of the information they have to process and their learning may 'stall'. Sometimes giving up one piece of info may allow the learning process to continue, to 'get past' the stall. But it is then that you may want to revisit the one thing you couldn't process earlier.

And yes, I quit using the rear brake at different times in my ON TRACK learning curve. I also realize that on the STREET, that thing could contribute to saving my ass.

One last thing: Doesn't NOT using the rear brake imply that the rider has the ability and can use the front brake with TOTAL effectiveness? What if they cannot? Wouldn't the rear brake offer some benefit in that case? I'd venture a guess that 90% of the people here on BARF cannot consistantly and effectively use their front (or rear) brake near 75% of its capabilities.

Does reponding to a question by asking a question really answer the original question in the first place?

[tiltedworld]

Keith,

Any mental drills to getting back on track and up to speed following an on track crash/injury. I was involved in an incident last August which kept me off the bike for months and I will be just getting back on track in a few weeks before racing again with the AFM. I have been street riding for months, but nothing resembling high-performance riding. I don't think I'm nervous, but I could be lying to myself and I just want to get back up to speed quickly. Thanks!

[squid vicious]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Squid Visicous

Seen any thumb brakes recently on any top rider's bike?

Keith

No, I guess I haven't. And of course, I was refering to Mick Doohan's set up; I just don't see why he would go through the trouble if the rear isn't necessary on the race course.

It would be interesting to poll the guys on the podiums these days.

[danc79]

Whoa!! great thread

Just subscribing to it :teeth, once i can think of a smart, and not so beaten down question, i will post.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by squid vicious
No, I guess I haven't. And of course, I was refering to Mick Doohan's set up; I just don't see why he would go through the trouble if the rear isn't necessary on the race course.

It would be interesting to poll the guys on the podiums these days.

Doohan's thumb brake was a solution to his mangled right leg. THumb brakes became fashionable for a while after that. DuHammel had one for example. That was in the very short lived era of big time backing the bikes into the corners. Another thing that has practically disappeared.

Some riders use them some don't. From a practical point of view you have to look at what trouble they cause riders, especially in street situations, where they lock up the rear, get the bike sideways and lose nearly 100% of their directional control over the bike.

Can it settle the rear end? Some say yes. Others figure out ways to set their bikes up better and don't have that problem. So, in some cases it is a solution to a problem that is more generated by the rider or his set up than it is a surefire technique for improving some riding situation.

If a rider is only willing to use say 80% of the stopping force of his front brakes, it is possible to get some additional stopping force and less stopping distance with both. I'd still give that rider the advice to work on his front brake until it was really well under their control and then decide if the rear was needed for general riding and track and racing as well.

Our experiments on my Panic Brake bike conducted in 1986 told me that most most riders (up to a fairly highly skilled racer) will reduce the front brake as soon as the rear locks up. That increases stopping distance and you could probably say that the riders attention went to the rear of the bike or the overall sense of it being somewhat out of control and he forgot about the front and released it to some degreee. That is what we saw in our testing.

Keith

[myap]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Myap

What is maintenance throttle?



It's a term I picked up fr. "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. I believe these were given out at a Zoom Zoom trackday last year. Anyways, Nick describes maintenance throttle as the moment you enter a corner and "ease the throttle open just enough to transfer some weight off the front tire, but not enough to actually accelerate the bike. We call this maintenance throttle." (p. 50)

[squid vicious]

Originally posted by Keith Code

If a rider is only willing to use say 80% of the stopping force of his front brakes, it is possible to get some additional stopping force and less stopping distance with both. I'd still give that rider the advice to work on his front brake until it was really well under their control and then decide if the rear was needed for general riding and track and racing as well.



Now that hits home. I'd be surprised if I'm even capable of 80% consistantly, and that little extra nudge from the rear helps get me around that corner when I just don't have the feel/trust in the front to do more. Interesting food for thought.

[ALANRIDER7]

Did Mick Doohan ever use his thumb operated rear brake to control wheelspin while exiting corners?

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by myap
It's a term I picked up fr. "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. I believe these were given out at a Zoom Zoom trackday last year. Anyways, Nick describes maintenance throttle as the moment you enter a corner and "ease the throttle open just enough to transfer some weight off the front tire, but not enough to actually accelerate the bike. We call this maintenance throttle." (p. 50)

Of course, Nick sent me a signed copy of his book, I just haven't looked at it for a while.

If you look at the physics of it you'll see that a slight acceleration is needed to maintain the bike's ideal attitude for max traction and a host of other desirable things the bike will deliver to you with good throttle control.

One way you can trick yourself into getting a good feel for turn entry throttle-on is by raising the idle to between 2,000 and 3,500 rpm. That helps to convince you that turning the gas on a little earlier is not going to kill you.

Even at 3,500 you'll find that the bike is still slowing down on your entries so the actual technical description of what should be done with the throttle is: Once you open the throttle continue to roll it on throughout the remainder of the turn.

You are looking for roughly a 40%/60% weight transfer towards the rear to bring the suspension into its most compliant range which of course gives max traction and many other things.

No acceleration is about the only way to lose the front end in a turn. Leaning it over too far can do it to of course.

Anyhow, there is some acceleraton that must accompany the throttle roll on to get the bikes dynamics into alignment and deliver its max capabilities.

The idea is to pick up the gas ASAP. This can't be done easily if you are trailing the brakes into the turn super deep.

Rolling on the thorttle with the front brake on is a quick way to the pavement, especially if leaned over but applies to straight up as well, that goes double in wet or otherwise slippery conditions.

This is another good reason to learn how to brake and downshift correctly.

Keith

[Shunter/Get-Off]

Damn good question, Alan.

Mike

P.S. Even though Miguel had a thumb brake on his bars for a while, his crew chief stated last year that he never touches the rear brake. On the other hand, Nicky Hayden has a 250mm rear brake rotor on his RC211V. Go figure.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Did Mick Doohan ever use his thumb operated rear brake to control wheelspin while exiting corners?

He did, but we were talking about braking.

Keith

[rsrider]

Originally posted by Shunter/Get-Off
Damn good question, Alan.

Mike

P.S. Even though Miguel had a thumb brake on his bars for a while, his crew chief stated last year that he never touches the rear brake. On the other hand, Nicky Hayden has a 250mm rear brake rotor on his RC211V. Go figure.

And if Nicky would get off the rear brake, maybe he could be as good as Pedrosa. That guy schooled Hayden about how to run lines around a MotoGP track.

Colin Edwards has mentioned numerous times about changing up his riding style so that he can get around the track faster, and I think he's trying to adapt the more flowing riding style of the Euro riders to help him stay with the front runners.

I took a bunch of shit about staying off the rear brake during a panic stop in another thread. I still think that the less you use the rear brake, the better off you are.

[ALANRIDER7]

This pic from Sunday shows what happens to tire contact patches under heavy braking. I don't know if this racer is using his rear brake or not but what it does show is just how small the rear contact patch is in relation to the front. If it was possible to have a scale underneath the tires at any given point, I wonder just what the weight bias front to rear would be.............

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2362119-2360177-img_2258.jpg

[JohnnyTwowheels]

According to the latest edition of Sport Rider that 250mm rear rotor is not for effectiveness but for heat dissipation. They said he had a very small cylinder to reduce effectiveness. So he still uses the rear brake a lot just not a real powerful one.



Originally posted by Shunter/Get-Off
Damn good question, Alan.

Mike

P.S. Even though Miguel had a thumb brake on his bars for a while, his crew chief stated last year that he never touches the rear brake. On the other hand, Nicky Hayden has a 250mm rear brake rotor on his RC211V. Go figure.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
This pic from Sunday shows what happens to tire contact patches under heavy braking. I don't know if this racer is using his rear brake or not but what it does show is just how small the rear contact patch is in relation to the front. If it was possible to have a scale underneath the tires at any given point, I wonder just what the weight bias front to rear would be.............

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2362119-2360177-img_2258.jpg

Well given a 1g stopping rate on a 500lb bike/rider combo you would probably get about 975 lb on the front wheel and about 25 on the rear for the picture you posted. If the rear were off the ground it would be 1000 front, 0 rear.

keith

[SNAKE03RR]

This is an excellent thread. I'm glad someone from another board linked it for us.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Well given a 1g stopping rate on a 500lb bike/rider combo you would probably get about 975 lb on the front wheel and about 25 on the rear for the picture you posted. If the rear were off the ground it would be 1000 front, 0 rear.

keith

Excuse me? 1g equals 1x the force of gravity. How does a 1g stop cause the bike/rider combo to double in weight?

Keith, you have many things to offer the motorcycling community, but when you venture into the area of physics, you loose a lot of credibility.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by SNAKE03RR
This is an excellent thread. I'm glad someone from another board linked it for us.

That would be me, bro!

No prob.:teeth

[ALANRIDER7]

Enchanter, lighten up.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Enchanter, lighten up.

No. Passing on good info is one thing, but crap....is crap. It speaks to credibility.

[ALANRIDER7]

He's here to help, not criticize or micromanage.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Excuse me? 1g equals 1x the force of gravity. How does a 1g stop cause the bike/rider combo to double in weight?



If you want to get into the physics of weight transfer under braking, there are specific formulas that show how much vehicle weight and load will be transferred to any given wheel at any given time. Keith is right- the front wheel contact patch will have not only it's portion of the bikes normal static weight on it but also the added weight transferred to the front through the vector force of applying the brakes. A 1G stop is fairly powerful.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
If you want to get into the physics of weight transfer under braking, there are specific formulas that show how much vehicle weight and load will be transferred to any given wheel at any given time. Keith is right- the front wheel contact patch will have not only it's portion of the bikes normal static weight on it but also the added weight transferred to the front through the vector force of applying the brakes. A 1G stop is fairly powerful.

I don't want to get into the physics of braking. Keith brought it up, and was waaaay off base. His statement was incorrect.

1G=1G. 500lbs of bike and rider will not weigh more than 500lbs when braking at 1g.

Keith is right- the front wheel contact patch will have not only it's portion of the bikes normal static weight on it but also the added weight transferred to the front through the vector force of applying the brakes.

Let's let Keith defend himself. He implied what you have stated. but he did so saying 1g. 1g. Can it be any clearer?

[Lester Green]

Enchanter, it's clear that your being an a... oh well never mind I don't wanna get suspended again....

[myap]

I had a boss like that once...or was it a ex?

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
He's here to help, not criticize or micromanage.

[Ratters]

Great thread! :thumbup

Lets hope it gets back on track. ;)

[ALANRIDER7]

The only proven way to get a better handle on your own personal skill set is to practice, practice and practice some more. Seat time is time well spent. Find that empty parking lot on a Sunday and do some braking drills. Know what your bike does and how it reacts when you wail on the brakes at 45mph so it doesn't surprise you when you have to do it in a real-life traffic situation. You are only as good as your preparation will allow. Make sure your rotors and pads are in good shape. Bleed your brakes. Inspect your tire pressures. Be prepared.

[i4strtsweepr]

Originally posted by Enchanter
I don't want to get into the physics of braking. Keith brought it up, and was waaaay off base. His statement was incorrect.

1G=1G. 500lbs of bike and rider will not weigh more than 500lbs when braking at 1g.

Let's let Keith defend himself. He implied what you have stated. but he did so saying 1g. 1g. Can it be any clearer? Well actually, they will 'weigh' more than 500 lbs in the sense that you'll have both gravity and brake forces pushing (mostly) through the front tire since the earth doesn't stop sucking at 1g just 'cause you're braking at 1g.

AND 'sides, you're not going to lift the rear tire on a race bike with 1g of braking

AND Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Enchanter, lighten up. +1 :thumbup

[tzrider]

Enchanter may not be expressing himself in the most enchanting of ways, but he's right about the math.

You cannot transfer more than 100% of the bike's weight to its front wheel. If the bike and rider weigh 500 pounds, 100% of that is 500 pounds.

[Enchanter]

OK. I thought about deleting or editing my posts. Nope. I'm responsible for what I have said.

The general consensus is that I should do...something....something other than contribute in this thread in the way I have been.

Done.

[i4strtsweepr]

Originally posted by tzrider
Enchanter may not be expressing himself in the most enchanting of ways, but he's right about the math.

You cannot transfer more than 100% of the bike's weight to its front wheel. If the bike and rider weigh 500 pounds, 100% of that is 500 pounds. Ok yeah, static weight no, but "weight transfer" isn't about static weight (except the part where your pillion jams yer junk into the tank). How else would F1 race cars approach 5.5 g's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_cars) (that's over 5500 lbs pushing hard on something!)

(seems like we've sufficiently bastardized this thread into a physics lesson :) )

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2362574-tire_forces.gif

[tzrider]

Granted, you may get a momentary spike above 100% if the transfer happens fast enough, because the vehicle is trying to rotate around its COM and has momentum. That spike will last maybe a half second. It doesn't begin to explain how F1 cars get 5.5 g's. Downforce from aero bodywork accounts for most of that.

Before we get too side-tracked, I doubt most of us need too much precision to understand that a motorcycle can completely unweight the rear tire. Once in that situation, it seems like any value the rear brake may have is over with.

[tzrider]

And i4strtsweepr, have a look at your own diagram. You have a 1.4g vector at a 45 degree angle from vertical. The vertical vector is still 1g.

[i4strtsweepr]

Ok Keith, then I get what you're saying about trail braking (to go fast, work on timing and flicking rather than trailing...which I'm nowhere near doing :) ), but are you also saying that even in straight-line braking on real-world track there's also no role for rear brake (e.g. - to setup for harder braking)?

[Keith Code]

I was just checking to see if you guys were awake...

We did see momentary spikes of over 1g on the Panic Brake bike as recorded by its g-meter and I can't honestly remember if the rear wheel was off the ground or not.

In a perfect braking maneuver you would want to have all of the bike's weight transfered to the front wheel while still maintaining the rear contact patch to keep the bike's wheels in good alignment so that any steering you did under braking would point the bike where you wanted it to go instead of having the bakc up in the air wagging around and possible setting down on the wrong side of the wag which would widen your turn entry.

That was the theory behind backing the bikes into turns, get it pointed more into the turn. Well, that apparently turned out to be more trouble than it was worth as it has all but disappeared as a routine procedure for most of the world's fastest riders.

The simple answer to it all is that the less confident you are with achieving 95% to 100% on-the-front-wheel braking the more effective the rear brake would be in helping to slow you down.

If you looked at it from the perspective of how good do you want to be, you'd practice until you could get consistent hard braking.

Once you achieved that then you would be able to make an easy decision on whether or not the rear brake was of any use to you or not. For example you might decide that riding in the rain was a great place to use the rear or if you ran off the road in the dirt, that would be a good situation to use it because in both of those the chances of loosing the front go up a lot.

Here is an iteresting point about hard braking that I'll give you to think about:
the trail increases by up to 30mm under hard braking. BTW, I got that bit of data from Tony Foale, his books are great.

So what would that do to the feel of the handlebars and the front end and the bike's ability to turn under hard braking?

Keith

[ALANRIDER7]

:wow

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2362902-ohthedrama.jpg

[afm199]

Originally posted by Keith Code
I
So what would that do to the feel of the handlebars and the front end and the bike's ability to turn under hard braking?

Keith

Yes, it makes the bike very easy to turn in at that moment. I saw something really interesting at Road America last year, in T5 at the AMA races. Yates turned in (trail braking) way before anyone else. But his style was to carry brake and slight turn in to a certain point and then REALLY turn in hard. Not sure what this has to do with anything :)

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by afm199
Yes, it makes the bike very easy to turn in at that moment. I saw something really interesting at Road America last year, in T5 at the AMA races. Yates turned in (trail braking) way before anyone else. But his style was to carry brake and slight turn in to a certain point and then REALLY turn in hard. Not sure what this has to do with anything :)

Yo Ernie,

The usual result of more trail is the bike feels more stable, more planted. Like if you change the triple tree offset and increase trail.

There is a price to pay for that stability, the bike becomes a bit harder to steer, the increase in trail creates more resitance at the front contact patch.

No trail would put the contact patch right under the axel and that would be one twitchy bike.

A speedway bike is a great example, almost no trail and super steep fork angle and you have a hard time even getting the bike to go in a straight line.

So, even though the head angle is much steeper (and you would expect it to trun quicker) when you are on the brakes it is more than offset by the huge increase in trail.

That is why the front feels kind of stiff and unresponsive under braking compared to on the gas where the trail is comparatively less. That is where the twitchy feeling comes in. The forks are extended (which should give you a more stable front end) but you have a reduction of trail to offset it.

That is my understanding of it.

Keith

[afm199]

Thanks Keith. Now my head hurts. I have to think about that for awhile.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Keith Code
No trail would put the contact patch right under the axel and that would be one twitchy bike.

Keith,

You might want to rethink that statement.

In the sceanario you describe (braking), regardless of the rake and trail, the relationship of the contact patch and the axle is always the same. The contact patch is always directly below the axle.

Picture a motorcycle braking hard enough to loft the rear wheel. Where is the front tires contact patch? Below the axle.

Can you think of any time that when the front tire is on the ground, that you cannot draw a straight line outwards from the center of the axle to the contact patch?

For the readers of this thread/post:
There is some good information here, but it's littered with some inaccuracies as well. I'm having a really hard time believing that the real Keith Code is the one responding to this thread. I just cannot belive that the MAN, the LEGEND, the highly successful businessman and professional rider coach would miss the basics.

I'm inclined to believe that what we have here is an employee of CSS posting for Keith (with his blessing). I could be wrong. What other explainations could there be?

[tzrider]

Enchanter, it's the real Keith replying on this thread. I happen to be one of his coaches and am happy to be forthright about it. No subterfuge necessary.

I'll let Keith speak for himself on what he really means. We do all err (choice of words, I think, in this instance). The nice thing about Keith is he will have the dialog, rather than just lecturing.

[ALANRIDER7]

I was under the impression that trail is defined as the horizontal distance between the vertical line of the front axle perpendicular to the ground and the line of the axis of the steering stem pivot as it would touch the ground in front of the axle mark. In heavy braking, the steering stem angle tightens up, which should reduce trail, no?

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2363193-squeezed_www.msgroup.org_images_steeringtrail.jpg

[tzrider]

Alan, I've been thinking the same thing you did. I've noticed that steering gets heavier when on the brakes, which would fit with longer trail, but I don't yet see how trail could get longer on the brakes. Haven't read Foale's book, though I have read sections on other topics that shed light on things I hadn't considered. For now, I'm considering that there may be some variables I hadn't known about.

Maybe the trail increases because the elasticity of the tire lets the contact patch stretch backwards while you're on the brakes (I'm making that up).

[Lester Green]

Welcome to Barf Keith.....

[ALANRIDER7]

:laughing :laughing :laughing

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2363212-2002-184b.jpg

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by tzrider
Enchanter, it's the real Keith replying on this thread. I happen to be one of his coaches and am happy to be forthright about it. No subterfuge necessary.

I'll let Keith speak for himself on what he really means. We do all err (choice of words, I think, in this instance). The nice thing about Keith is he will have the dialog, rather than just lecturing.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Ok, so he's the real deal. That's cool.

My head hurts from this as well.

[Keith Code]

Enchanter, thanks for all the accolades.
there is just one little bit of this that might have gotten overlooked.

"Ground trail is the amount by whch the center of the tire contact patch trails behind the point where the steering axis meets the ground."

So while what you say is true that the contact patch is always underneath the axel, the trail measure point, which is at the center of the patch, is not.

Under braking it is further back due to the deformity of the tire toward the rear. Under hard braking even further back.

I just got back yesterday from the first round of the British Superbike Series in England, cut me some slack on my jet lag.

Keith

[tzrider]

My head was hurting too, so I called Keith. He was going over Foale's book right then.

Turns out that what I just said jokingly in my last post is essentially the explanation.

Here's the background that had a few of us mixed up: Trail is the distance between two points. If you sight down the axis of the steering head to the ground, you have the first point -- the axis around which the tire steers. The second point, behind the first in a healthy motorcycle, is the center of the contact patch.

It's completely true that the rake steepens and the steering axis point on the ground moves rearward when you're hard on the brakes. This would seem to shorten trail. But because the front tire deforms, the center of the tire's contact patch also moves rearward and by a larger amount than the steering axis does. The net effect is that trail increases.

It certainly fits with what most riders have experienced: That bikes tend to stand up if you apply the brakes mid-corner and that the steering feels heavy on the brakes.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Enchanter, thanks for all the accolades.
there is just one little bit of this that might have gotten overlooked.

"Ground trail is the amount by whch the center of the tire contact patch trails behind the point where the steering axis meets the ground."

So while what you say is true that the contact patch is always underneath the axel, the trail measure point, which is at the center of the patch, is not.

Under braking it is further back due to the deformity of the tire toward the rear. Under hard braking even further back.

I just got back yesterday from the first round of the British Superbike Series in England, cut me some slack on my jet lag.

Keith

If my accolades seemed sarcastic, I apologize. I do not mean to detract from all of what you have done for motorcycle training and motorcyclists everywhere. I apologize if it's coming off in an inappropriate manner.

There is a fair amount of 'Hero Worship' on barf, and that may have been influencing my posts (I hate it). Again, I apologize.

I have Tony's books at home. I'll try to read and learn more about what you are saying/clarified for us. (Got a page number?)

Thanks for understanding.

[Lester Green]

That was big of you Enchanter:thumbup

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Enchanter
If my accolades seemed sarcastic, I apologize. I do not mean to detract from all of what you have done for motorcycle training and motorcyclists everywhere. I apologize if it's coming off in an inappropriate manner.

There is a fair amount of 'Hero Worship' on barf, and that may have been influencing my posts (I hate it). Again, I apologize.

I have Tony's books at home. I'll try to read and learn more about what you are saying/clarified for us. (Got a page number?)

Thanks for understanding.

I don't think I could stand myself if I was right all the time. No apology necessary but accepted in the spirit it was given.

Keith

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by i4strtsweepr
Ok yeah, static weight no, but "weight transfer" isn't about static weight (except the part where your pillion jams yer junk into the tank). How else would F1 race cars approach 5.5 g's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_cars) (that's over 5500 lbs pushing hard on something!)

(seems like we've sufficiently bastardized this thread into a physics lesson :) )

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2362574-tire_forces.gif

The high g's in F1 are a pure result of downforce which starts accumulating at very low speed. Mechanical grip is still a value but it's much easier to hit a ceiling with mechanical grip than with downforce. By extruding the wing elements and body work to the air, they generate downforce which in turn results in "g's" being built up into the corner since the car is holding position and not sliding. Since bikes do not benefit from downforce, I wouldn't bring F1 cars into this dicussion.

[Keith Code]

Enchanter

The trail thing came from a conversation I had with Tony and to tell the truth I'm not sure it is in his book(s).

Tony is cool though, so if we have a question as to where he got the data he would answer it.

Keith

[Holeshot]

Tim, it's good to call even legends on issues that may be incorrect or poorly explained. The further explanation helps us all.

Those who sought to shut you up don't understand this simple fact. Dialog is how we learn, not stifling.

Am I hearing the sentiment that bikes turn in poorly in the brakes with no mention of the decreased front end geometry?

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Am I hearing the sentiment that bikes turn in poorly in the brakes with no mention of the decreased front end geometry?

Not sure. By "decreased front end geometry" do you mean that the rake is steeper? If you do, I said something about that above. If you mean something else maybe you'd elaborate.

My experience is most bikes steer heavier on the brakes. Does yours differ?

[darkie]

Peeking back to where this started, there was the question of using the rear brake. Personally I do not use it on track. I do on the street from time to time.

I've ridden with many riders on the track who would use the rear while only using the front to about 70% of its effectiveness. I would not say that using the rear is wrong, but I would say that the relative importance of mastering it is less than mastering the front. There is also enormus value in mastering the rear brake should the front brakes fail suddenly, slippery surfaces, etc.

At the highest level of racing, you will see some racers who use the rear to back it in. However looking at the recent GP you can see that there was no clearly evident advantage for the riders who were doing it. So again I would not say it is wrong or right, but how we can look at this subject is: "how am I going to ride my bike and what's going to work for me?"

[afm199]

Originally posted by darkie
Peeking back to where this started, there was the question of using the rear brake. Personally I do not use it on track. I do on the street from time to time.

I've ridden with many riders on the track who would use the rear while only using the front to about 70% of its effectiveness. I would not say that using the rear is wrong, but I would say that the relative importance of mastering it is less than mastering the front. There is also enormus value in mastering the rear brake should the front brakes fail suddenly, slippery surfaces, etc.

At the highest level of racing, you will see some racers who use the rear to back it in. However looking at the recent GP you can see that there was no clearly evident advantage for the riders who were doing it. So again I would not say it is wrong or right, but how we can look at this subject is: "how am I going to ride my bike and what's going to work for me?"

All true, but McCoy still puts on the best show in the business. :)

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by tzrider
It certainly fits with what most riders have experienced: That bikes tend to stand up if you apply the brakes mid-corner and that the steering feels heavy on the brakes.

I have another question if I may.......

Based on this statement, I would wonder what Keith thinks about using some of your front brake mid corner.

If you found yourself in a situation where you need to change your line to the inside and you're a little hot for it, maybe because of traffic or just a decreasing radius, could using your front brake and countering the effects from the brake by leaning into the turn more, be beneficial? Obviously, you would have calculated you have enough front traction and anticipate the opportunity to open the throttle to put some weight on the rear for the apex.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
I have another question if I may.......

Based on this statement, I would wonder what Keith thinks about using some of your front brake mid corner.

If you found yourself in a situation where you need to change your line to the inside and you're a little hot for it, maybe because of traffic or just a decreasing radius, could using your front brake and countering the effects from the brake by leaning into the turn more, be beneficial? Obviously, you would have calculated you have enough front traction and anticipate the opportunity to open the throttle to put some weight on the rear for the apex.

Sure sometimes you have to use the front brake in a turn, no shame on that the only thing that gets most riders is grabbing a handful and losing the front.

For non racing situations, as long as you bring the bike up as you apply the brake you can most often make it work fine. You just have to coordinate bringing the bike up along with applying the brake.

If you have a light touch it works just about anywhere except full lean, there it will get a bit sketchy.

I've got 6 days of schools at The Streets of Willow starting tomorrow so I'll see you all back here after that if you like.

Keep the questions coming, I'm having a great time.

Keith

[Nemesis]

Ah, yes...this Rossi speaking and I think it possible win if rear brake not used.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Ciao!

[98TLRider]

Keith,
What's the best thing to do once you've already gotten yourself into a corner too hot? I've heard, "When in doubt, gas it", and to just look through the corner. Is there anything else to do, physically or mentally, in that situation?

[budman]

Thanks Keith for all of the input! :thumbup

:smoking

[Serge]

Keith, besides your "Panic Brake bike" and "No BS Bike" did you breed any other kinds for teaching?

...like with a 3rd side wheel instead of a knee ;)?

Serge

[swerv512]

For anyone interested I just returned both volumes 1 & 2 of "twist of the Wrist" at the main sf public library... sorry i had it soo long.

[Stormdragon]

Sweet thread. Thanks everybody. :teeth

Keith, you're gonna just make me pull out my copies of both yours and Foale's books from storage with all this. Wonder which bin I put all that MC stuff into...

[NOsquid]

Rake and trail both decrease under braking. The bike may feel harder to steer because there is more weight over the front end.

[RcrBoy]

Originally posted by darkie
Peeking back to where this started, there was the question of using the rear brake. Personally I do not use it on track. I do on the street from time to time.

I've ridden with many riders on the track who would use the rear while only using the front to about 70% of its effectiveness. I would not say that using the rear is wrong, but I would say that the relative importance of mastering it is less than mastering the front. There is also enormus value in mastering the rear brake should the front brakes fail suddenly, slippery surfaces, etc.

At the highest level of racing, you will see some racers who use the rear to back it in. However looking at the recent GP you can see that there was no clearly evident advantage for the riders who were doing it. So again I would not say it is wrong or right, but how we can look at this subject is: "how am I going to ride my bike and what's going to work for me?"

About time :rolleyes. Very well put.
I always use both brakes on the street, because it's the street not a race track. They each have different dangers. At the track I never touch the rear brake (mostly 'cause it's too damn hard to do when I'm all scrunched up on a GP125 race bike:laughing )
Seriously. Both brakes on the street, front brake only on the track. That's what works for me ;)

BTW. Keith. You're way cool man. I'm 47 years old and took your class at Sears Point back in 1998 the year before I started with the AFM. And I still remember those drills :teeth


:loco Mark :loco

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Serge
Keith, besides your "Panic Brake bike" and "No BS Bike" did you breed any other kinds for teaching?

...like with a 3rd side wheel instead of a knee ;)?

Serge

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2376265-bike_dsc_1199.jpg

[darkie]

Originally posted by 98TLRider
Keith,
What's the best thing to do once you've already gotten yourself into a corner too hot? I've heard, "When in doubt, gas it", and to just look through the corner. Is there anything else to do, physically or mentally, in that situation?

That's a good question and I've seen many people ask that one before. I think Keith would be able to better answer it if you could further define the scenario. How you go about handling going into a corner too hot would depend on various factors such as type of corner, street or track, where you are relative to the turn when you felt you were too hot (just before turning it in, as you are turning it it, mid turn & running wide, what you might be doing with the brakes at the time, running wide on exit, what the tires may or may not be doing [sliding], etc.).

The question is an important point for sure. I have seen many riders get in "too hot" and crash when they could have taken certain actions as "damage control" that would have seen them through the corner safely.

If you can get more specific I'm sure you will get an answer that might shed some light on the subject for you from Keith.

[98TLRider]

Anytime I have ever gotten the feeling of going in too hot, it was maybe a second before turning in and not on the brakes. It's usually followed by my survival instinct telling me to hit the brakes (I don't) and it causes me to hesitate a second, not turn in smooth, and run wide.

There hasn't been any wheel slip in that situation, but my rear seems to slip often when I'm leaned over mid turn, on a turn that I have executed well. I suspect the cause of that to be my suspension setup. I've only had my current bike a few weeks and haven't set the suspension up yet.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by 98TLRider
Anytime I have ever gotten the feeling of going in too hot, it was maybe a second before turning in and not on the brakes. It's usually followed by my survival instinct telling me to hit the brakes (I don't) and it causes me to hesitate a second, not turn in smooth, and run wide.

There hasn't been any wheel slip in that situation, but my rear seems to slip often when I'm leaned over mid turn, on a turn that I have executed well. I suspect the cause of that to be my suspension setup. I've only had my current bike a few weeks and haven't set the suspension up yet.

98TLrider

OK, a second is a long time and a lot of distance, 88 feet at 60mph. If you really are hesitating one second before and after your turn in that is huge space.

What we need to figure out is what you are doing during that second before you turn the bike into the turn. Something is bringing about uncertainty and cuasing you to turn in "not smooth and run wide".

The first thing we should "look at" is what you are looking at during this period that we are talking about.

So two questions:

1. Does this happen in familiar and unfamiliar turns?

2. What are you looking at during this "two seconds" of time coming up to and going into the corners?

Keith

[faz]

wow... I didn't realize this thread was actually being answered by Keith himself!!!

(subscribed to this thread now!)

Hey Keith,
On a different thread, I have asked the question: given one can do the same turn at the same speed, in higher or lower rpm range (depending on the gear chosen), which is a better choice? and why?

say I can do a turn at 40 mph, and can do that in second gear at 7k rpm or 4th gear at 3k rpm... which one should I choose??

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by faz
wow... I didn't realize this thread was actually being answered by Keith himself!!!

(subscribed to this thread now!)

Hey Keith,
On a different thread, I have asked the question: given one can do the same turn at the same speed, in higher or lower rpm range (depending on the gear chosen), which is a better choice? and why?

say I can do a turn at 40 mph, and can do that in second gear at 7k rpm or 4th gear at 3k rpm... which one should I choose??

Hey faz

Depends on what you are trying to do with the turn.

If you are planning a big drive off the corner 3rd gear is your sweetheart, if you just want to get the rush from the turn itself then 4th grear gives the least "noise" from the bike and allows you to focus on corner speed and throttle control a bit easier.

Keith

[tiltedworld]

Originally posted by tiltedworld
Keith,

Any mental drills to getting back on track and up to speed following an on track crash/injury. I was involved in an incident last August which kept me off the bike for months and I will be just getting back on track in a few weeks before racing again with the AFM. I have been street riding for months, but nothing resembling high-performance riding. I don't think I'm nervous, but I could be lying to myself and I just want to get back up to speed quickly. Thanks!

Never got an answer because the whole rear brake issue kinda blew up. I suppose I now know the answer, just ride, but still curious.

This weekend was scary at first, but I got back to within 5% of normal laps, although I did notice more overbraking in a few areas and lines slightly off, presumably instinctual since I haven't been on track for so long.

[faz]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Hey faz

Depends on what you are trying to do with the turn.

If you are planning a big drive off the corner 3rd gear is your sweetheart, if you just want to get the rush from the turn itself then 4th grear gives the least "noise" from the bike and allows you to focus on corner speed and throttle control a bit easier.

Keith

Thanks. :thumbup

[faz]

I just finished reading through these pages and must say it has been one of the best readings I have had here on BARF. At points, I had to dig through some dead brain cells to find some old physics/geometry knowledge buried deep in there.

Without wanting to question any of the material presented here,

could the tightening of the steering under hard braking be simply a result of having sticky tires pushed to the ground harder? I mean if you squeez an eraser vertically on a table, it becomes harder to rotate, vs. rotating it while pressing lightly (and still vertically) on that table. :confused

[faz]

P.s. budman, the reason I was ignoring this thread all along was that I thought someone is asking about the level one of keith code school. May be if the title was changed to something that clearly identified 'keith code is here answering your questions', there will be interest from others who may be ignoring it now.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by tiltedworld
Never got an answer because the whole rear brake issue kinda blew up. I suppose I now know the answer, just ride, but still curious.

This weekend was scary at first, but I got back to within 5% of normal laps, although I did notice more overbraking in a few areas and lines slightly off, presumably instinctual since I haven't been on track for so long.

Where did you crash? Tell me what happened and we'll see if we can sort it out.

Keith

[VPREATR]

Hi Keith,
A couple of questions, first; I’m encountering issues with corner entry speed, at initial analysis it appears that I’m braking far to early; in conversation with fellow riders, my corner speed is good, however it’s entirely possible I’m using far to much throttle during the corner in compensation for poor entry. What I’m encountering is this: during a race, I’ll enter a fast corner much slower than a fellow competitor (i.e. Turn 1/Thunderhill), only to pass them mid-corner, if the track has repeated corners of length (i.e. Turn 2/Thunderhill/Turn 6/Sears); I’m able to create a gap, only to loose that gap upon the next entry; providing the track doesn’t have successive corners that allow me to utilize corner speed alone.

Now, as I mentioned above, it’s entirely possible I’m braking far to early, I typically don’t utilize trail braking and I’ve been told this is apparent; in searching for entry improvements I’ve repeated my no-brakes drills; while I’ve found improved confidence upon entry, my corner entry speed has not improved to the level needed; what would you suggest as a method of improvement?

Secondly, in having my fellow riders/racers assist in reviewing my riding abilities; a few “fast” racers have noted that my corner turn-in is exceptionally hard; quite honestly I don’t know any different as I’m using the method I was taught. I’ve been told that I go into the corner and upon my turn-in (post two-step); I countersteer with exaggerated force and a few find it hard to believe the tire sticks, so to speak. In reviewing my notes and your teachings, it appears that my turn-in method is acceptable; in reviewing video I don’t appear to be using a method of “hard turn-in” as noted by others; should I be concerned? It is clear that I’m not going deep enough per say your teachings; but we’ll save that for another post. :)

In closing, you may recall, I’m partially paralyzed, in fact, you and your team taught me how to ride a motorcycle (three years ago) while only being out of the wheelchair for a short time; in searching for an answer to my corner entry limitations I’ve considered the paralysis as being an issue; however despite the pain, I’m comfortable other related aspects (i.e. acceleration during corners, corner exit acceleration, transitions, etc.); one thing is for certain I’m finding it exceptionally difficult to overcome these slow entry speeds.

Your thoughts, suggestions and comments are welcomed.

Thanks!

For the record, Keith Code and his team at California Superbike School taught me how to ride a motorcycle; after a near life ending automobile accident and years of physical therapy; despite degenerative paralysis and severe pain, I took it upon myself to pursue motorcycles as a method of long term mental and physical therapy; Keith and his team took me from the basics (while still in arm crunches) to the art of riding with proficiency.

[tiltedworld]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Where did you crash? Tell me what happened and we'll see if we can sort it out.

Keith

Thanks Keith,

Infineon: Exit of T8a as cresting the hill, a very fast section. I was "body-checked" by the passing rider trying to squeeze through on my left (I was already near left track edge driving towards T9). I got to see the event on video, as the rider behind happened to be filming the race. Crash was entirely not my fault, I was on-line and next thing I knew I landed on my back and tumbled a long way, tearing thumb ligaments along the way. A very poor passing decision when there was gobs of room up my inside.

This weekend was my first trackdays since and it was very scary, but I just worked on positioning and maintaining cornerspeeds (albeit slow) and within a few sessions I had dropped back down to where I was at the beginning of last year. By the end of the weekend I felt like I was relaxing more but still "anxious" and definitely spending more mental energy than needed, especially in judging entries, and when passing/being passed mid corner. (I noted my head dropping a bit and not looking through at times)

Is there anything drills (mental or other) that I can do to get back to my normal relaxed self when out there, especially in a race situation as opposed to a normal trackday? Thanks again!

[CykoKlr]

Hey Brendan

Its going to take more than a day and most likely more than a few days. I bonked my head real good last August on the R1 and it only took a day to get my times back. But they where not at the same comfort level. Its now been 6 track days and I finally feel good and comfortable again. My last day out I actually felt progress beyond where I was before too. Once you break that point you will feel great out there again. Just take it slow and lower your expectations for a bit to give yourself time back in the saddle again.

[Holeshot]

Keith can you review the "hard turn in" approach? I never understood how exactly the dynamics of that worked.

Thanks.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by tiltedworld
Thanks Keith,

Infineon: Exit of T8a as cresting the hill, a very fast section. I was "body-checked" by the passing rider trying to squeeze through on my left (I was already near left track edge driving towards T9). I got to see the event on video, as the rider behind happened to be filming the race. Crash was entirely not my fault, I was on-line and next thing I knew I landed on my back and tumbled a long way, tearing thumb ligaments along the way. A very poor passing decision when there was gobs of room up my inside.

This weekend was my first trackdays since and it was very scary, but I just worked on positioning and maintaining cornerspeeds (albeit slow) and within a few sessions I had dropped back down to where I was at the beginning of last year. By the end of the weekend I felt like I was relaxing more but still "anxious" and definitely spending more mental energy than needed, especially in judging entries, and when passing/being passed mid corner. (I noted my head dropping a bit and not looking through at times)

Is there anything drills (mental or other) that I can do to get back to my normal relaxed self when out there, especially in a race situation as opposed to a normal trackday? Thanks again!

Brendan,

This might sound too simple but here is what I suggest.

Get yourself back to Sears Point (sorry, I can't call it Infineon) and walk up to
8a early in the day before anyone is on track. Call ahead and ask for permission from the promoter, whoever that is.

Just walk through the incident from beginning to end a couple of times and see how well you can relocate exactly where it happened and what happened.

It is best to do it with someone you trust who will just listen to what you have to say as you go through it and not really comment about it much.

I've had some amazing results doing this with riders, including myself.

Best,
Keith

[Keith Code]

VPREATER and Holeshot,

Wow Mark, your description of what is happening tells the whole story of what you have been getting as a result from your quick flicking the bike---higher mid corner speeds, enough higher to repass the riders who are running it in underneath you.

A mid corner pass like you describe is not something to feel bad about, that is one of the hardest passes to make for most riders. For most turns, it requres at least 3mph more mid corner speed.

As long as you aren't getting too loose mid corner it sounds like the amount of acceleration you are using is exactly the right amount.

You are a big guy and have a lot of spring in that thing so your throttle control would be a bit different than someone who is lighter--a bit more agressive to get the suspension compliance from the bike.

So the real question is how do you trust the front enough to keep your turn entry speed higher OR in situations where there is someone on your butt, use a "protect" line so you don't have to get back by them in mid or corner exit.

What we do know is this, the lazier you are bringing the bike over the more lean you will need, at some point, to get through the corner.

If you are getting it turned well at the entry and aren't having to lean further mid corner then that is what is giving you the opportunity to give it the stick.

If you run low lines in because of trailing the brakes too long, the additional lean mid corner stalls the point you can effectively get back to the gas. You aren't having that problem.

Quick flicking the bike always seems dangerous. Quick flickinhg at higher speeds seems more dangerous and most riders never even try it.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever completely lost the front end from a quick flick provided the tires were warm, had good rubber on them, the surface was not slippery, the front end didn't bottom out and the brake wasn't on.

How fast can you quick flick a bike? Apparently, as fast as your own fear will let you do it...

Keith

[tiltedworld]

Thanks Keith!

[Alexey]

Great thread. Big thanks to Keith for participating, as well as everyone not being complacent with things that didn't "seem right"! :thumbup

[kxmike]

Good info. Thanks Budman. :thumbup
Keith, many years ago (20?) I worked with a guy who road raced and he loaned me his copy of Twist of the wrist. I raced motocross at the time and was in a "rut". After reading your book I found myself analyzing parts of my technique that I had never even thought about before. My riding improved almost immediately (thanks). 20 years later I'm still analyzing (street bikes now) and getting better. Sometimes I get as much enjoyment out of analyzing a problem (and solving it) as I do from riding:teeth . Thanks for your input. Looking forward to some good discussions;) .

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Keith Code


How fast can you quick flick a bike? Apparently, as fast as your own fear will let you do it...



Does this require lightening up steering damper settings?

[Snoggin]

Hey Keith,Ernie(afm199) and me tim baker snoggin are on the wait list for 4/29-30 at streets. I have convinced him he needs to experience your school as we and he have had several "spirited" discussions here on barf that have been very entertaining but he had neverr experienced your program. Hopefuly the slots wil ipen up and we can come see you guys then.
Tim Baker

[Snoggin]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Does this require lightening up steering damper settings?

I would venture no Alan. I think it is a matter of commitment and assertive countersteering. thats assuming your damper isnt set overly heavy to cover up suspension issues That was one of the things I was working on last sept at Barber when i did CSS lvl 4 again. The quiker you can get to full lean the less of it you will need and the earlier you can get back on the gas . At least that was the jist of it thats the other nice thing about css. you can use up your frequent flyer miles and go somewhere new and exciting.

[afm199]

Originally posted by Snoggin
Hey Keith,Ernie(afm199) and me tim baker snoggin are on the wait list for 4/29-30 at streets. I have convinced him he needs to experience your school as we and he have had several "spirited" discussions here on barf that have been very entertaining but he had neverr experienced your program. Hopefuly the slots wil ipen up and we can come see you guys then.
Tim Baker

Yeah I am looking forward to this! Tim please go ahead put it on your credit card and I will get back to you. :teeth :laughing :laughing

PS: Tim and a couple CSS instructors convinced me that I needed to try out the school. I only listen to Tim because he can get around me. Particularly when he is riding his 1k and I am on my SV...

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by kxmike
Good info. Thanks Budman. :thumbup
Keith, many years ago (20?) I worked with a guy who road raced and he loaned me his copy of Twist of the wrist. I raced motocross at the time and was in a "rut". After reading your book I found myself analyzing parts of my technique that I had never even thought about before. My riding improved almost immediately (thanks). 20 years later I'm still analyzing (street bikes now) and getting better. Sometimes I get as much enjoyment out of analyzing a problem (and solving it) as I do from riding:teeth . Thanks for your input. Looking forward to some good discussions;) .

Oh how I do know what you mean about analyzing riding problems, they stick in my head for years until I figure them out.

Usually what I do is sit down and write about it, that clears the head of superfluous crap and lets me get to the heart of the matter. I turn them into articles like the ones on the school web site, there are about twenty of them there right now.

Writing it down is a lot like making track drawings when you have a problem area, really, really helpful. .

Keith

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Does this require lightening up steering damper settings?

Snoggin took the words out of my mouth. Heavy steering damper is usually an attempt to fix a more basic handling problem and rarely works.

Steering dampers should be set at the lowest possbile setting rather than the highest.

Some riders pay a lot for one and figure that they are only gettingtheir money's worth if it is on a high setting.

Yes, it does affect how quick you can flick the bike when set too high.

Keith

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by afm199
Yeah I am looking forward to this! Tim please go ahead put it on your credit card and I will get back to you. :teeth :laughing :laughing

PS: Tim and a couple CSS instructors convinced me that I needed to try out the school. I only listen to Tim because he can get around me. Particularly when he is riding his 1k and I am on my SV...

It'll be great to have you come, I think we already have a "special" program for you...

If you come to the Streets you won't have to worry about litre bikes blowing your doors off cause it's not that kind of track, well I think you already know that.

To us, the Streets is an ideal training track, plenty technical, lots of laps, easy to get a flow going but just enough variety to stickyou when you get it wrong.

Hope to see you there.

[Keith Code]

Just because someone asked about it earlier, here is what our updated Lean/Slide bike looks like on a ZX6R, 636 platform.

This is the 6th generation of the device and the best one so far.

[Keith Code]

Here is the shot.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2397260-slidebike.jpg

[tuxumino]

Keith,
what is the most important/difficult aspect of cornering?
what aspect of cornering once learned gives the greatest percentage of riders the most improvement?

Currently the 2 tracks I've been to are Sears and Thill, my favorite places to pass are thill turn 2 and sears turn 6.

[Riley]

Keith;

Do you apply weight to the outside or inside peg while entering and exiting a corner?

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by tuxumino
Keith,
what is the most important/difficult aspect of cornering?
what aspect of cornering once learned gives the greatest percentage of riders the most improvement?

Currently the 2 tracks I've been to are Sears and Thill, my favorite places to pass are thill turn 2 and sears turn 6.

That is a trick question right?

To answer that question would take a little research like how long the rider has been riding, 1 week, 10 years?

If you ask an individual they will give you an answer to it. Ask a group of twenty riders and it's anyone's guess what you will get.

One thing is for sure, labeling it as "lack of confidence" won't get anyone anywhere.

I'll try to help though. What is your major area of uncertainty? What control actions cause hesitation or result in mistakes?

All mistakes and hesitation are preceeded by something that the rider did do. So what area is it you have your attention on?

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Riley
Keith;

Do you apply weight to the outside or inside peg while entering and exiting a corner?

Just clarify it a little for me.

Is that a question for me personally or a general question about the subject of peg weighting?

[Riley]

Personally.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Riley
Personally.

I personally have weight on both pegs because my feet are on them so it is unavoidable.

Sometimes you want to get your butt out of the seat a bit if the track or road is bumpy or there is a dip in it.

Happy? Or is there some other part of this you are trying to find out?

[Riley]

The reason I asked was because some riders say that they weight the outside peg during cornering and others say the inside peg. I dont see why you would need to weight either if your body position is correct.

[darkie]

Originally posted by Riley
The reason I asked was because some riders say that they weight the outside peg during cornering and others say the inside peg. I dont see why you would need to weight either if your body position is correct.

I know what you are saying. I've heard some say that the inside peg should be weighted to help get the bike steered into a corner. However, I have seen Rossi and Stoner go into turns with their inside foot off the peg.

Personally I think that the way a motorcycle steers is the rotation at the steering head, hence the name "STEERING head".

I agree with you on the fact that proper body position is more important than which foot you weight when going in. However you could go off on another tangent discussing the definition of "correct body position" and have a whole debate on that subject.

The fact is that you just can't come out and say that one technique is "right" and everything else is "wrong" or not as good.

A good clue to the whole concept would be that having your lower body stable and locked on to the bike is an important factor. One can not generate as much power from an unstable base. The hips are the foundation for the upper body, so having that area of the body stable and locked on to the bike is a good place to start in my opinion.

[Riley]

Thank you for the excellent response.

[darkie]

You're welcome, but I'm not Keith.

I know him well, but he's not me. Our avatars are similar.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Riley
The reason I asked was because some riders say that they weight the outside peg during cornering and others say the inside peg. I dont see why you would need to weight either if your body position is correct.

Riley,

There are quite a few bright ideas out there but which ones are really steps forward in your riding?

While I am not the world's master physicist by any means I do know that peg weighting is more of a leg exercise than an effective tool for riding motorcycles.

Darkie has a point and the point is this: an unstable rider puts out a lot of effort to ride the bike. More importantly they often transfer their own instability to the bike.

The one thing that it very clear is that top riders wear out boot soles in their effort to maintain a stable position on the bike.

One of the keys to that is grippy footpegs, aftermarket rearsets are very grippy, they are cut with very sharp edges.

The other thing riders can do for a lot less money is buy Stomp Pads for their tanks.

Take a look at Danny Pedrosa at 102 lbs., or that is what the press says anyhow.

Our UK branch school director got him on Stomp pads last year on his 250 and it helped him enormously.

Keith

[Riley]

Thanks both of you for the responses. I got the Stomp pad and it is great!! My main problem is that I like to keep my head up while cornering. It is very uncomfortable for me to "kiss the mirror"

[greener]

Does Kieth Code achieve maximum angle:

Before seeing Grace Park

After seeing Grace Park

Is Kieth gonna have to choke a __?

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157140

[Riley]

IDIOT!!:mad

[tuxumino]

Originally posted by Keith Code
That is a trick question right?

To answer that question would take a little research like how long the rider has been riding, 1 week, 10 years?

If you ask an individual they will give you an answer to it. Ask a group of twenty riders and it's anyone's guess what you will get.

One thing is for sure, labeling it as "lack of confidence" won't get anyone anywhere.

I'll try to help though. What is your major area of uncertainty? What control actions cause hesitation or result in mistakes?

All mistakes and hesitation are preceeded by something that the rider did do. So what area is it you have your attention on?

Actually I think you just answered the question.

If I were to rephrase the question it'd be
what is the most important/difficult aspect of cornering?
what aspect of cornering once learned gives the greatest percentage of riders the most improvement?

a: juding entry speed (including braking and shifting)
B: line choice
c: overcoming survival reactions
d: body postioning

My Issue on the track is I'm grinding footpegs before kneesliders (naked SV650 w/ SV650s rearsets and stockpegs).

I'm a fast C group rider with 8 track days.

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by tuxumino
My Issue on the track is I'm grinding footpegs before kneesliders
stick that knee out further. problem solved...

[ekraft84]

Hey Keith,

We've chatted a couple times before and over email in the past. Got all the books and have read them repeatedly.

My question is about the downshifting/braking process. An example being going into a turn off a long straight. You're in 6th gear and need to get down to say, 2nd or 3rd gear. What order do you downshift and brake?

Ease the brakes on as you click down a gear one at a time, releasing the clutch smoothly to keep the bike from hopping around .. Or grab a downshift right away to let the engine do some of the braking, then start braking and get the rest of the downshifts in? Or even downshifting more than one gear at a time while braking?

And what about body position? You're slowing down at a fast rate, so it's easy to lock arms and put unnecessary feedback into the bars, further making it difficult to get the bike turned in. Any other tips besides bending the elbows and trying to grab the tank with your legs?

I've heard other pro's descriptions on how to do it and have seemed to have done it decently before, but I've never gotten to the point of full confidence in the order of operation/procedure I use when trying to do all at once.

Thanks,

Eddie

[ekraft84]

I just saw this actually:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/bbs/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=258

Guess I'm on the right path. Just need more practice ..

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by tuxumino
Actually I think you just answered the question.

If I were to rephrase the question it'd be
what is the most important/difficult aspect of cornering?
what aspect of cornering once learned gives the greatest percentage of riders the most improvement?

a: juding entry speed (including braking and shifting)
B: line choice
c: overcoming survival reactions
d: body postioning

My Issue on the track is I'm grinding footpegs before kneesliders (naked SV650 w/ SV650s rearsets and stockpegs).

I'm a fast C group rider with 8 track days.

tuxumino

Ya but choosing one of them is the way to go. The reason for that is: each of them is a pretty complete subject all on its own so that makes them too general to just list like that.

If you were working with a pro they might tell you that they could be better at all of them but the last thing you would do is talk to them about all of them.

That's what I'm talking about in choosing THE one that would take the rider to THEIR next level of improvement.

My defininition of a riding plateau is:
When the next step up looks too far to reach and going back to work on a basic seems boring.

Usually it is the boring one (the basic one) that gets the results.

On your list and to address your problem, I would start to look at lines and all the support pieces that go together to being able to get a line and that help minimize lean angle.

Let me do the simple thing and refer you to two sections in Twist Volue II, chapters 15 & 18.

You aren't the only one who is bothered by this. There is a certain very fast rider on the AMA circuit that is having lean angle problems and crashing (and winning) too often (on the crashing part) and still hasn't remedied the problem.

Keith

[Martin]

Originally posted by Keith Code


Our UK branch school director got him on Stomp pads last year on his 250 and it helped him enormously.

Keith

Why don't the GP guys use these? I see them on AFM-AMA but not on the GP bikes.

Also: When transitioning between two quick turns like a chicane how do you deal with your footing? Do you go into the corner with both feet up or do you transition some where in the middle? I have a habit of centering myself on the seat, then switching my feet, then hanging off again on the other side which isn't very graceful.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by willneversee30
Why don't the GP guys use these? I see them on AFM-AMA but not on the GP bikes.

Also: When transitioning between two quick turns like a chicane how do you deal with your footing? Do you go into the corner with both feet up or do you transition some where in the middle? I have a habit of centering myself on the seat, then switching my feet, then hanging off again on the other side which isn't very graceful.

Sponsorship is one reason they don't use them and also, they don't like to have anyone think there is something "wrong" with the bikes.

You see grip tape on some AMA bikes and that is usually the clear stuff. They like the bikes to remain as stock as possible.

On your transition question:

If you know you are going to transition, and you always do on track, just ride on the balls of your feet through that section.

That keeps your boots off the ground as well.

[Wrong Way]

When can you “feel” your shock needs damping adjustment?
Exiting a turn I have noticed the subframe oscillating upon acceleration. I went quarter turn harder on the rebound and it seemed to help. Did I compromise traction and the help I found was due to the wheel spinning up?

When do you know you need more compression damping and would turning out (from hard) your rebound on the shock help keep the rear planted? I know this is kinda vague, maybe you could just cover some basics on what you look for when dialing in your shock.

Thanks

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
When can you “feel” your shock needs damping adjustment?
Exiting a turn I have noticed the subframe oscillating upon acceleration. I went quarter turn harder on the rebound and it seemed to help. Did I compromise traction and the help I found was due to the wheel spinning up?

When do you know you need more compression damping and would turning out (from hard) your rebound on the shock help keep the rear planted? I know this is kinda vague, maybe you could just cover some basics on what you look for when dialing in your shock.

Thanks

You are right it is a little vague.

I don't know what you mean by an oscillating subframe.

Was it from tire spinning or was the tire biting better and then you got some chatter?

Generally speaking, if you want one end of the bike to stay down more, you increase the rebound.

If there is too much rebound you tend to get a very harsh ride because the shock or the forks tend to "pack down" into the spring.

No rebound in the rear will give you the worst intermitent traction you can imagine, the bike will just slide at every opportunity.

If you can sharpen up the description of your problem a bit I'll see what I can think of.

Truthfully, I'm not the world's greatest resource for suspension information. If I don't know I generally ask people I trust on the subject.

In the end the best source for suspension info is yourself and the only way I know to find out is to be bold and change settings on the bike enough so you can feel what they do.

Keith

PS:

We have four days of school coming up at Willow Springs so I'll be back on Monday.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Keith Code
You are right it is a little vague.

I don't know what you mean by an oscillating subframe.



He probably means the tail end wiggles on the corner exit.

[afm199]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
He probably means the tail end wiggles on the corner exit.

Ohh Yeahh! I mean yeah, that would be it.

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by afm199
Ohh Yeahh! I mean yeah, that would be it.

Thanks for the input Keith

You're no help Ernie :twofinger

I have been talking to different suspension guys and I think a big problem (much like if the rear brake is effective question) is different suspension have different performance capabilities.

It's just a viscous cycle. You get one thing close only to create a problem somewhere else. Listening to different opinions which conflict with each other has only added to the madness. Yet, every little bit of info helps.

It's been easier to ride around a problem I have identified than just guessing when a problem might arise. Right now I am trying to identify what is causing the rear to spin up in conditions where the chassis would kinda pogo before, not chatter or spin. I believe the tire was gripping fine, the shock was crying no more power please. Reducing the amount the shock would rebound, allowed more throttle but didn’t seem to put more power to the ground.

Like Keith (I believe) was hinting at, you have to experiment a little.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Wrong Way


You're no help Ernie :twofinger


No shit. He's been too busy bangin' Pamela Anderson. :laughing

[darkie]

Here's a photo that dates Keith. This was the cover of Yoshimura's 1976 parts & accessories catalog.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/669/2431762-yosh_r_d_photo__large_.jpg

[Serge]

Hello Keith,

I was reading your "soft science book" and I have a question:

when you illustrate "mental movies" in pictures in some "mental snapshots" you can see the rider and in some you do not - you see what rider would see. Is this difference in the pictures deliberate or accidental?

Has someone who was a fast rider told you that he sees himself in his "mental movie" during racing?

thanks, - serge

[Keith Code]

Serge,

Yes, I've had quite a few riders of world class caliber tell me that they could see themselves and what they were doing all at the same time.

This is what most would call an "out of body" experience and others say "the zone".

It brings up a lot of phiosophical and even religious questions about who and what we are.

I've always found it to be one of the most fascinating things about racing.

Keith

[darkie]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Serge,

Yes, I've had quite a few riders of world class caliber tell me that they could see themselves and what they were doing all at the same time.

This is what most would call an "out of body" experience and others say "the zone".

It brings up a lot of phiosophical and even religious questions about who and what we are.

I've always found it to be one of the most fascinating things about racing.

Keith

One of the MotoGP racers talked about that in the "Faster" video.

[Serge]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Serge,

Yes, I've had quite a few riders of world class caliber tell me that they could see themselves and what they were doing all at the same time.

This is what most would call an "out of body" experience and others say "the zone".

It brings up a lot of phiosophical and even religious questions about who and what we are.

I've always found it to be one of the most fascinating things about racing.

Keith

Thanks! Actually I never read any description of "the zone" experience before. (that is besides advertizing of "Autozone" store)

BTW, Richard Bandler did quite a stirr-up showing that one can successfully study, model and manipulate "subjective experiences" and teaching very simple method to cure fears: he had people to run a mental movie of a situation in question and see themselves in the movie.

Is this "dissasociation" prerequisite for consistent fast riding? I think it was mentioned in a "Faster" movie that Rossi's pulse in turns is slower than those of most riders.

Keith, I hope you will have yet another book, mapping "the zone". After all, there are so many examples of successful instructions in "religious experiences". Just point those helmet cameras inwards the helmets ...

Thanks for your input !
Serge

[pisadora]

Hello Keith,
I own an 03 sv650 naked bike and this Summer I will be attending a track day at the zoom zoom event at Thunderhill. For my first time on the track how should I prepare myself? How can I get my knee down? I've never done it and I'm a little hesitant. Another question is my body position. I have the high bars and not the clip ons. SHould I try to get close as possible to the tank when in a turn? Any advice would help alot!!

Thanks,

Jerry

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by pisadora
Hello Keith,
I own an 03 sv650 naked bike and this Summer I will be attending a track day at the zoom zoom event at Thunderhill. For my first time on the track how should I prepare myself? How can I get my knee down? I've never done it and I'm a little hesitant. Another question is my body position. I have the high bars and not the clip ons. SHould I try to get close as possible to the tank when in a turn? Any advice would help alot!!

Thanks,

Jerry

Jerry,

You might be getting just a little bit ahead of yourself with the knee down idea.

You have to build a solid base of riding skills before the knee down is going to get you anywhere.

To answer your question about high bars, they aren't an issue, that is all there were when Superbike racing first started here in 1976.

You do have the right idea though, going out with a goal or a target in mind is good.

Here is what I would do. First thing will need is to make some sense out of the track, Thunderhill is a fairly complex circuit.

You'll need to set yourself some reference points. If you've ever read "A Twist fo the Wrist, Volume II", you would know that the one reference point that helps more than any other is your turn-in-to-the-corner reference point.

If you can set one for yourself for each of the corners you wlll be miles ahead of where you would get trying to put your knee on the floor.

Keith

PS: There is general advice on body position but handling it on an individual basis is the only way to truly sort it out.

Forget your knee for a while, it will only distract you from learning the circuit.

[Alexey]

More of a thank-you note than a question. Couple of weeks ago I was racing at Loudon. It was a bit of a challenge, given that