Panic Braking Question

[cardinal03]

this question is inspired by this thread http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156957

I suppose I have two questions:

1. My instinct was always that one should EITHER "panic" brake OR evade. Shaving speed, then evading is one thing, but should I evade with the clutch in and no power to the rear (I know, under some circumstances evading will mean accelerating, so obviously I'd need power, but then I don't think I'd be braking to begin with, just accelerating) or should I re-engage power to the rear wheel?

2. If I need to use the brake, I always pull in the cluth. If I need to shave speed, I'll let off the gas. Sometimes I'll downshift and engine brake. But if I need to use the brake I'll always also pull the clutch in. And I always figured that in a panic braking situation, I would just wait until I came to a complete stop. Is this a bad habit?

[argh]

A freewheeling rear is not your friend, IMHO. Well, at least with respect to motorcycles.

I don't even know what that meant. Sorry.

Clutch out. Even when I'm coming to a stop, I don't pull it in the instant I start braking.

[Sidewalk]

I hate it when I make a long post, and then it doens't go through, errrr.

Anyway, to sum up.

There is no one right answer, every situation is different. However, I will say this:

The brakes should be used to slow down, not the engine. I know most people do it, and you are always going to do it to an extent, but why slow down and if nothing else, use your brake lights to show it? Besides, always using the brakes creates a habit.

I only clutch in to shift, or make an extremely hard stop (never been done except when practicing). I 'blip' the throttle between shifts to keep power to the wheel and prevent/reduce rear wheel lock up.

Every bike is different. Learn the strengths and weakness's of your bike and exploit them. I won't use horsepower to get me out of a situation on a Buell Blast, but I also won't use the flickability of the RR to avoid most poor situations when braking and HP are more effective.

Of course, preventing the situation is the better idea. It is rare for me to get into that kind of situation because I avoid them before then begin. Very rarely is there a bike wreck where the rider could have reasonably prevented it.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Sidewalk
There is no one right answer, every situation is different.
<<snip>>
The brakes should be used to slow down, not the engine.
<<snip>>
...always using the brakes creates a habit.
<<snip>>
Every bike is different. Learn the strengths and weakness's of your bike and exploit them.
<<snip>>
Of course, preventing the situation is the better idea. <<snip>> avoid them before then begin.
<<snip>>
Very rarely is there a bike wreck where the rider could have reasonably prevented it.

Great, fantastic points.

[mynx]

I have the same instict to pull in the clutch when I brake. It didn't occur to me that this was a bad thing until an MSF instructor pointed it out. It is something I still have to think about per the situation. Hard brake - clutch in. Otherwise, no clutch.

[yelow748]

It comes down to learning how to stop fast on your bike
any one can stop , but if you have taken some time and practiced
those e and panaic stops ( no stoppies please ) the confidance level jumps up a few notches . remember there will be no same same situation at any givin time , so practice in a empty parking lot , set up cones the width like you are lane sharing is a good start , also get used to stopping over some slick surfaces , like painted lines ... bring water and a friend

[cardinal03]

good points all around. i've never had to really panic brake, but i'll try to wean off the auto-clutch in when braking.

[Enchanter]

In a non-panic braking situation, I regularly leave the clutch out until I'm at fairly low speed for the gear I'm in.

In a situation where I want to stop in the shortest possible distance, I squeeze the clutch damn near the same time I begin using the brakes. It allows me to focus damn near all of my attention on braking effectively. It also disconnects the spinning motor/transmission from the situation. This allows 100% of the braking force to be used for slowing the wheels on the pavement. With the clutch out, some of the braking force is being used slowing the engine and transmission. The end result is extended stopping distances compared to using just the brakes to stop.

[faz]

^ Thanks Tim.

I learned something new today. I always left the clutch out, as I thought it helped with braking distances.

[plumber]

I love the RT's ABS. It has spoiled the hell out of me. I was getting off the freeway the other day. It was a ramp to a stop sign. I normally would haul it down pretty firmly in the dry. It wasn't raining that day but the ramp was wet to the stop sign. I didn't see the wetness until I was on it. I clearly overrode my eye sight. I initiated the brakes and the bike just stopped. It was clearly slippery and the ABS just took over. It actually hauled down pretty quick.

Long live ABS

[ALANRIDER7]

Motorcyclist or Sport Rider did a test a few years ago and found that pulling in the clutch removes the engine/transmission momentum from the equation and allows for a shorter panic stop by a few feet. This is in a straight line with a skilled rider at the controls. Your mileage may vary. When I have tested this theory myself on the street, I have found it to be true.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Motorcyclist or Sport Rider did a test a few years ago and found that pulling in the clutch removes the engine/transmission momentum from the equation and allows for a shorter panic stop by a few feet. This is in a straight line with a skilled rider at the controls. Your mileage may vary. When I have tested this theory myself on the street, I have found it to be true.

Road & Track also found this to be true with cars.

[i4strtsweepr]

Promocycle (http://www.promocycle.com/amorfrein_e.pdf) back in Jan/04 found same under controlled conditions - although the advantage of clutch in or out in an estop was only ~5ft from 60mph

(if you de-clutch *and* downshift, it was more like 10ft longer; presumably you're less focused on using front brake to the limit when you're also downshifting.)

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/156/984/2362697-estop-clutch_or_no.gif

[ALANRIDER7]

5 feet is huge in a panic stop situation. It can be the difference between a close call and a bodybag.

[Red6Rdr]

I'm confused, so the consensus is that pulling in the clutch WHILE braking is the best method right?

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Red6Rdr
I'm confused, so the consensus is that pulling in the clutch WHILE braking is the best method right?

Squeeze the clutch, keep it in and concentrate on the brakes.

[Red6Rdr]

I see, so I've been doing the right thing PLUS sometimes blipping/downshifting while braking.

[i4strtsweepr]

If you believe Promocycle's numbers, you lose about 10-1/2 ft downshifting in a panic stop -- that's roughly a car-length (!!)

-- and if you're blipping on top of it, you might be talking ~15ft since you're splitting concentration across three actions (...and feathering the rear? That's 4 things.).

I think Enchanter has it right:
"Squeeze the clutch, keep it in and concentrate on the brakes."

[Oddjob]

Originally posted by Enchanter

In a situation where I want to stop in the shortest possible distance, I squeeze the clutch damn near the same time I begin using the brakes. This allows 100% of the braking force to be used for slowing the wheels on the pavement. With the clutch out, some of the braking force is being used slowing the engine and transmission. The end result is extended stopping distances compared to using just the brakes to stop.

Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

[plumber]

Originally posted by Oddjob
Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

Freewheeling is coasting in neutral or clutch in. The motorcycle isn't freewheeling during braking. The suspension is loading up and preventing the chassis from lurching forward as the tires stop the bike.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Oddjob
Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Let me take a stab at it though:
While the engine is capable of slowing the vehicle, the brakes can do so much more effectively, better, and in a shorter distance. In other words, once the brakes are being used properly, keeping the rear wheel engaged to the transmission/engine will actually INCREASE the stopping distances.

I have no idea how/why you think that a 'slide-out' when stopping is a likely hazard when disengaging the clutch. There are times when a rapid weight shift (such as one that comes from the inappropriate use of the clutch) is not a good idea. But when someone is stopping in a 'panic' or emergency situation, rapidly disengaging the clutch will lead to shorter stopping distances.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Oddjob
Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

:wtf

[tuxumino]

engine braking, downshifting and throttle modualtion are cornering techniques used to set correct corner entry speed and suspension balance.
Panic braking is the hardest possible stopping a rider can do in a straight line: to stop quickly disengage the clutch and engage the front brake until the bike stops.
IF you are a skilled rider you can use your rear brake to decrease the stopping distance, but be careful of locking up the rear and sliding.

panic stop practice will increase your confidence, and give you a chance to test which stops you quickest; with clucth or with out, with rear or without.

I'm sure there are some riders(Rossi) that are so skilled that they can downshift and use the rear brake to greatly decrease their stopping distance but for most of us clutch in and front brake alone will be the most effective.

[christofu]

Can't argue with statistics but I will add one thing:

It is a very worthwhile practice goal to completely disassociate what's going on with your clutch hand/shift foot from what's going on with your throttle hand/braking

Personally, I don't want to instinctively have something happen with my clutch hand simply because something is happening with my brake hand. These are two different controls and I want to control them independently.

I definitely recommend breaking yourself of the habit of always clutching in while braking. If you make it a CHOICE that's fine but a HABIT limits your options.

I hadn't really even thought about it, but it seems that I'm at a point where my right and left hands do operate independently. Which is nice. My right hand can be panic braking while my left hand is playing chess.

Actually, what's really happening is that my right hand can be panic braking while my left hand and foot are busy keeping the transmission in the right gear. Because I personally believe that blipping is a complete waste of time, focus and energy, I don't lose any stopping distance doing this because I can still focus 100% of the brakes into stopping. The downshifting happening on the other side doesn't affect that at all (except that the engine braking on my torquey little bike does help with stopping faster).

[Oddjob]

Originally posted by Enchanter
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

But when someone is stopping in a 'panic' or emergency situation, rapidly disengaging the clutch will lead to shorter stopping distances.

Based on what? Don't you think engine drag will help stop the motorcycle no matter how hard you are braking? Don't you agree that disengaging the clutch will shift weight forward? Or to put it another way, when you're at the track and come up on a corner way too hot, do you pull in the clutch when you start braking?

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Oddjob
Based on what? Don't you think engine drag will help stop the motorcycle no matter how hard you are braking? Don't you agree that disengaging the clutch will shift weight forward? Or to put it another way, when you're at the track and come up on a corner way too hot, do you pull in the clutch when you start braking?

Weight trasfer will happen when decellerating with the brakes or just by rolling off the throttle.

Engine drag (compression braking) does not provide the same level of braking that the use of the brakes do. When using compression braking in combination with wheel brakes, the wheel brakes have to not only cope with the forward momentum of the motorcycle and the rotational inertia of the wheels, the will also have to try and slow down the engine. All of this leads to less efficient braking (longer distances).

Oh, and there have been times when I've entered a turn too hot and done just as you described (pull in the clutch when using the brakes).

If you are getting shorter stopping/braking distances by combining compression braking with wheel brakes, then you are NOT using the wheel brakes as good, or as much as you could be. Period.

[the grinch]

guess what,
there is only a certain amount of traction available to you,
it makes very little difference if that traction is being used up with only the brakes,brakes+engine braking,brakes+engine braking+feet dragging on the ground ala Fred Flintstone

effective braking is more about keeping both ends of the bike on the ground(or close to it),while using all the available traction


i feel that i have more control over that traction with no engine braking

do what feels comfortable to you

btw,my bike comes equiped with a slipper clutch,and i like it,alot

[the grinch]

also,
pulling in the clutch does not shift the weight of the bike forward,slowing down does

don't you think it makes more sense that engine braking would shift more weight forward than slowing down by coasting???

give it a try people,close the throttle and feel the weight move forward
then,pull in the clutch and feel the forks extend


and if you really want to learn how braking forces and acceleration forces affect motorcycle traction ,

ride a dirt bike!

[Sidewalk]

Originally posted by christofu
It is a very worthwhile practice goal to completely disassociate what's going on with your clutch hand/shift foot from what's going on with your throttle hand/brakingI consider that to be a more advanced technique. As long as a person still refers to it as a panic situation, they probably can't yet handle that extra bit of load.

I do practice at ignoring my left hand and shift foot, just clicking down the gears so I am where I want to be (first on the RR, since it is good until 80 MPH anyway :D), while concentrating on what my right hand and foot are really doing.

If anyone has really put a lot of braking effort on the rear brake as well as the front with the clutch still engaged, you will find that the engine doesn't like it much. Maybe if you have a slipper clutch you will be fine, but coming short of stalling the engine because you are using the rear brake enough to stall it, that just upsets the suspension with all the bucking.

I have yet to need this technique I practice for. Every time I have had to stop fast, it wasn't so fast that I was not able to blip and match RPM's, I had room to spare. But I still practice, just in case of that one day...

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by the grinch
also,
pulling in the clutch does not shift the weight of the bike forward,slowing down does

don't you think it makes more sense that engine braking would shift more weight forward than slowing down by coasting???

give it a try people,close the throttle and feel the weight move forward
then,pull in the clutch and feel the forks extend


and if you really want to learn how braking forces and acceleration forces affect motorcycle traction ,

ride a dirt bike!

Ride at a constant speed and then pull in the clutch. Feel some decelleration? What you are feeling is weight trasfer. Weight transfer will occur any time you acellerate of decellerate. In your example, (rolling off the throttle & then squeezing the clutch) the fork extended because there is LESS decelleration (& less weight transfer) not because there is no decelleration.

[Sidewalk]

Originally posted by Enchanter
A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand superior skill. Too bad we can't Mojo signatures :cool

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by christofu


If you make it a CHOICE that's fine but a HABIT limits your options.



I like this idea but it leaves out most riders who will resort to their habits in a panic situation. In fact, we all resort to our training in panic or high stress situations. So it makes sense for riders to develop good habits.

If in a high stress situation you're still able to make a choice, then you clearly are not in overload. We know this is why highly experienced riders can "back-it-in" to a corner. For nearly all street riders, that level of braking would be an overload situation. LOL

Unfortunately, the vast majority of riders don't understand good braking technique on a motorcycle. And one reason is riders make it far too complicated.

[Enchanter]

^^^^ Very good post!

[Sidewalk]

We all resort to training and habits when we reach our limits. That is what allows people to do things that they didn't think they could, because it exceded their own mental limits for that time frame.

COnsider anyone who for one reason or another trains regularly at something, anything, and see what that person does when they get over head. Hell, even before they get over their head, they are more prepared for that situation. A cop in a shoot out, a fireman pulling someone out of a fire, rider locking up the front brake, hen immediately releasing and relocking because he has developed that habit.

[the grinch]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Ride at a constant speed and then pull in the clutch. Feel some decelleration? What you are feeling is weight trasfer. Weight transfer will occur any time you acellerate of decellerate. In your example, (rolling off the throttle & then squeezing the clutch) the fork extend because there is LESS decelleration (& less weight transfer) not because there is no decelleration.

thank you for agreeing with me

i did not say that the bike did not decelerate when the clutch was pulled in

my point was that there is more weight transfer while engine braking

i suppose i am unclear sometimes

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by the grinch
<<snip>>

Edit: Because I'm not reading or thinking clearly. I guess I got confused.

Sorry Mr. Grinch.

I'll step away from the keyboard and this thread. :later

[the grinch]

but i do not like engine breaking

and i agree with what you have said

i was replying to some one else who said that pulling in the clutch caused too much weight transfer,and upset the bike more than using engine breaking also



so stop quoting me , we agree