MSF -- Now What? [Archive] - BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

Monkey_Boy

04-02-2006, 08:23 AM

Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time. Learn to be relaxed as well.

The one thing MSF teaches that many of us disagree with is the use of brakes. MSF tells you never to use your front brake while leaned over. That is fine for a beginner as far as avoiding its use in a corner until you gain more experience. But know this: You can use the front brake in a corner, while leaned over. In fact, it is amazing just how hard one can brake at certain lean angles. But using the front brake in this manner takes practice and one never knows just how hard one can brake at any particular lean angle until it's too much. :)

The basic rule is, the more lean angle, the lesser amount of braking can be applied. So one can brake very hard going into a turn and as the lean angle increases, the braking applied must be reduced. That is trail braking in a nutshell.

Watch the MotoGP guys trail braking and you'll notice that even at a 20-25 degree lean angle, they may lift the rear wheel off the ground using the front brake. At lean, the front tire still offers a substantial amount of braking power.

As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

Sooooo... the next step for you is to just ride. Stay away from city riding if you can while you build your skills and discipline as a rider. Did he say "discipline" ? Yes. :laughing Most riding skills are developed by practicing them over and over again - especially the skills that will keep you alive out there, such as being relaxed and looking through corners.

Wear the best protective gear you can afford. And enjoy the ride.

Enchanter

04-02-2006, 10:40 AM

You post isn't too bad up until this part:Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

Using the rear brake can be useful. Especially for someone that has not MASTERED the use of the front brake. The ONLY time that the rear brake is a problem, is when the rider does not/cannot use it properly. It is more appropriate to teach a novice proper use of the controls rather than teach them to give up controls that they haven't mastered yet.

faz

04-02-2006, 10:45 AM

Definitely:

street strategies (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889540692/qid=1143996200/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0893868-5822512?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

followed by

proficient motorcycling (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889540536/102-0893868-5822512?v=glance&n=283155)

to begin with.

slydrite

04-03-2006, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
The one thing MSF teaches that many of us disagree with is the use of brakes. MSF tells you never to use your front brake while leaned over. As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

some good advice except for the above two points......

in fact MSF teaches two distinct ways of braking in a corner.....

and not using the rear brake regularly just means that one is not very good at it and thus is giving up a % of their total stopping power.......

i4strtsweepr

04-03-2006, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by faz
Definitely:

street strategies (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889540692/qid=1143996200/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0893868-5822512?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

followed by

proficient motorcycling (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889540536/102-0893868-5822512?v=glance&n=283155)

to begin with. +1

Hough's books were a big help when I was starting out -- helping to fill the huge learning gap after MSF and before I hit 5-digits on the odometer (and I'm still a long way from 6-digits).

Then:
Ride ride ride... rain or shine, hot or cold -- else what's the point?

I rode a ~lot~ that first year, and the twistier the better; I used to string together 3 or 4 or 5 beautiful and twisty pashnit roads for a Saturday ride. I also skirted the big cities that first year (or cut through in the morning) because, as Code would say, I was still spending dollars instead of quarters on basic things like clutch and brake.

SpeedyCorky

04-03-2006, 12:48 PM

all you gotta do to improve your skillz after MSF is just show up for a BARF group ride; and ride A group. you'll learn so much keeping up with those guys!

(joke. joke.)

Monkey_Boy

04-05-2006, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by slydrite
some good advice except for the above two points......

in fact MSF teaches two distinct ways of braking in a corner.....

and not using the rear brake regularly just means that one is not very good at it and thus is giving up a % of their total stopping power.......

First, I have no problem with what the MSF teaches on how to brake in a corner, such as using the lane width to upright the bike as much as possible when applying the brakes. That is actually fine advice for some situations -- but not nearly all.

Not using the rear brake has nothing to do with "not very good at it." It has everything to do with control and staying alive. As to such a skill level, ask Aaron Yates how often he uses the rear brake in an AMA road race.

The only time I use the rear brake on the track is if I run off the track surface into the dirt... Otherwise it's 100% front brake only. And unless I'm dealing with low traction situations, it's 100% front brake on the street as well, on a sport bike, my GS, or when I had my Harley Davidsons or even the Goldwing.

The main reason for developing your braking skill with the front brake is because the rear brake provides zero benefit under hard braking conditions, and those are the conditions that exist in nearly all panic stops. In fact, if one does not apply the front brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel, then you're not using all the power the front brake has to offer (at least with a sport bike.) And under those conditions, the rear brake is worthless. Or, if not lifting the rear wheel, the rear is so light that any application of the rear brake will result in locking up the rear wheel, and that is a condition most people have very little experience with and hence the rider has an even more difficult situation to deal with.

Maximum front braking and a locked up rear wheel -- tough even for a veteran rider to manage properly. What's the general rule for managing a locked up rear wheel? Keep it locked until you come to a stop. Consider that senario when you panic brake in traffic.

Bottom line is, practice over and over again the fundamental skills you learned in school, keep your wits about you, and don't try to keep up with faster riders. After you get 5,000 miles under your belt, attend a Keigwin school. Then your schooling will truly begin. :cool

Monkey_Boy

04-05-2006, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Enchanter
You post isn't too bad up until this part:

... It is more appropriate to teach a novice proper use of the controls rather than teach them to give up controls that they haven't mastered yet.

Except in low traction situations, the proper use of the rear brake is don't use it. Is that clear enough?

argh

04-05-2006, 09:04 AM

I disagree. Initiating braking with gentle rear brake compresses the suspension, and allows you to apply more front braking force without the rear wheel leaving the ground. Bike geometry will play a part in determining how effective this is, but two contact patches are better than one for slowing down.

If you're incapable of not being a spazz on the rear brake (and I count myself in this group), you might find it effective to rotate the brake pedal lower or else introduce some air into the line to make it spongy.

"Only use the front brake" is an oversimplified solution that doesn't use all the tools in your toolbox, IMHO.

Enchanter

04-05-2006, 09:09 AM

If the rear wheel is on the ground, then the rear brake provides some benefit.

Most street riders do not use their front brake enough. As such, there is more weight on the rear wheel and the rear brake is more effective.

Referencing racing and using it in a conversation to a street rider is foolish. How many times does Yates brake to a stop? And has been referenced before, using the rear brake will aid in reducing the initial weight trasfer thereby allowing more control and subsequent use of the rear brake.

Not every motorcyclist wants to ride their bike at or near the limits of traction. 90% of street riding is done at speeds and in situations where the rear brake is usefull.

Monkey_Boy

04-05-2006, 10:59 AM

Sure it's easy to use the rear brake in 90% of riding situations, so I can't disagree with you there. However, 90% of one's riding don't present the challenges of dealing with the situations where your life is in danger, ie a panic stop. In such situations, you don't have time to think, you simply "do" and without the right training newer riders will take the wrong actions. THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN.

The idea of using the rear brake to settle the suspension is just so much nonsense. The weight transfer still has to happen. So what if you touch the rear brake to cause the rear to squat, then apply the front brake? Many riders think there's some magical benefit to this. I would agree those combined actions may reduce some discomfort for a passenger, but otherwise it's meaningless. Why? Because braking in non-panic situations can be done in many ways and they will make NO DIFFERENCE to your life one way or the other. However, habitual use of the controls in ways that don't develop the right discipline will result in wrong actions when it really matters.

Here's what will happen to the vast majority of newer riders who use the rear brake all the time: In a panic situation this rider will probably press the rear brake so hard he'll lock up the rear wheel, and likely will not even touch the front brake because he grips the bars in fear. All you have to do is look at the typical motorcycle accident scene. One long skid mark and a seriously injured rider. The front tire didn't produce that skid mark...

The essential point is, you can develop and use any sort of good or bad habit on a motorcycle and most of the time it will work. But it is only the good habits that will serve you well in a panic situation. So, learn good habits or you may pay for it with your life.

If you want to hold onto the idea that the rear brake is so important for street riding, fine. I can't help you if you're determined to remain deluded. :laughing

Roundboy

04-05-2006, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by humbug612
A Twist of the Wrist
A twist of the Wrist 2, by Keith Code

Great reading

Beat me to it.

+1

Enchanter

04-05-2006, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN.

Who is the 'we' you refer to?

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
I can't help you if you're determined to remain deluded. :laughing

Right back at you.

Monkey_Boy

04-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Enchanter
Who is the 'we' you refer to?

Right back at you.

:laughing

Well, "we" is any experienced rider who's been around the block. I hope you do agree the issue is when and not if.

In my case, many years of riding, my share of crashes and mistakes, and providing instruction to other riders, including classroom and on track and street. My signature may provide a clue. :teeth

tzrider

04-05-2006, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time.

While looking through turns is important, you can't steer a bike with your eyeballs.

Given your outlook on steering and your role as an instructor, do you not bother with teaching your students how to steer? Considering the great number of accident investigations that conclude that a rider could have avoided a hazard by steering, but failed to do so, I have to disagree with you that steering is a natural thing. I have encountered many, many riders who couldn't steer a bike effectively and would tell you that anyone in that situation is a danger to themselves.

Effective steering is the most powerful tool a rider has for avoiding collisions, second to none. Countersteering is the one and only way to make quick, drastic direction changes and anyone who rides and takes their safety seriously should be able to do it well and at a split second's notice.

plumber

04-05-2006, 07:14 PM

I'm still waiting to hear who has the biggest Johnson, the MSF instructor or the Keigwan instructor.

I'll settle the bet for you. Get ABS and leave the braking to the computer. It's not the end all answer but it sure has saved my ass. It's the main reason why I bought the RT, servo assisted ABS. I'm sure Mr. Yates can beat the computer but I can't.

argh

04-05-2006, 08:45 PM

I may be an idiot, but I'm in good company.

"..But studies prove that a combination of front and rear braking will stop a bike more quickly and in less distance than just using the front brake. Many riders have found that applying the rear brake nanoseconds before the front brake helps settle the bike because the rear suspension isn't so eager to rebound, a trait that helps reduce the forward weight transfer. Because they have longer wheelbases and can be used to carry passengers, many non-sport bikes have extremely usable rear brake systems. So from a functional point of view, it's a good idea to educate your right foot on the pedal." -Sport Riding Techniques, Nick Ienatsch

"The ideal braking curve corresponding to equations (9) and (10) is represented in Figure 3. As an example, let us assume that the braking traction coefficient is [..] which corresponds to the straight lines RO and FO for the rear and the front tire respectively.
The admissible braking maneuvers (having [..]) are contained in the grey area of the plot. If only the rear
brake is used, the maximum braking force is S(tot) = 766N and leads to a deceleration of x = 0.285g (point R). If only the front brake is used, the maximum braking force is S(tot) = 1400N and leads to a deceleration of
x = 0.561g (point F). The use of the
ideal braking repartition makes it possible to obtain a greater total braking force and deceleration (point O) S(tot) = 1950N and x = 0.73g. Figure 3 shows that the ideal value of the front braking force increases with the braking intensity. On the contrary, the ideal rear force grows until it reaches a maximum, then it decreases to zero under stoppie condition. Moreover, it may be
observed that the rear braking force is always smaller than the front one"

-- On the Braking Behavior of Motorcycles (http://tinyurl.com/h7anj) , Vittore Cossalter, Roberto Lot and Fabiano Maggio, University of Padova (a SAE paper)
:nerd

Outta Control

04-05-2006, 10:06 PM

I am grabbing some popcorn and sit my a$$ down. Oh BTW I got 6 words... Mick Doohan's rear thumb brake lever :teeth :later

Monkey_Boy

04-05-2006, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by tzrider
While looking through turns is important, you can't steer a bike with your eyeballs.
...

Uh, I said don't be overly concerned. Not sure how that translates into "steering is not important." You may not steer the bike with your eyeballs, but you sure as heck control the direction of travel with your vision. Same is true with a cage.

With the number of track days I do each year (about 35-40) and all the schools, off the top of my head I can't recall a single rider who needed instruction with steering (there must have been at least one :laughing . ) However, even novice track riders have a far amount of street time under their belt. I have instructed very few pure beginners. I'll leave that to the MSF.

The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life.

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Outta Control
I am grabbing some popcorn and sit my a$$ down. Oh BTW I got 6 words... Mick Doohan's rear thumb brake lever :teeth :later

Yeah, and Duhammel used the rear brake on the RC51. Not sure if he does on the RR. Interesting note, Duhammel applied the rear brake on the RC51 at mid corner to near the exit of the corner. He didn't use it on corner entry. Hmmmm, I wonder why he used it that way. Nicky Hayden used a different technique with the RC51. No rear brake. Hmmm, I wonder why.

When you become as good a rider as Duhammel or Doohan, feel free to use the brakes as you wish. :)

Tell me, how and why does a rider of that caliber use the rear brake?

tzrider

04-06-2006, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Uh, I said don't be overly concerned. Not sure how that translates into "steering is not important."

<snip>

The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life.

While you didn't explicitly say steering was unimportant, it doesn't seem to rate for you as being among the most important survival skills a rider can have. You appear to assume everyone already knows how. Have I misunderstood?

The reason I persist on this is that unlike you, I have met many fairly experienced riders, even at the track, who didn't really know how to turn a bike that well. They could get it around a corner they were planning for, but in a surprise situation, they couldn't turn that fast or effectively. As long as that's the case, they're not nearly as safe as they could be. If I recognize the problem and can teach them to steer better, why would I "leave that to the MSF?"

Enchanter

04-06-2006, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing.

Yeah, it's a skill we are all born with isn't it?

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
I have instructed very few pure beginners. I'll leave that to the MSF.

As someone that has instructed 8000+ people, I can tell you that countersteering is far from natural. (I can take out my E-penis and wave it around too. See, it really doesn't give me more respect does it? Pot, kettle....you're black.)

Your opinions seemed to be based on your perception of the motorcycling public. The type of the public that seek out trackdays, and the type of the public that seek out elevated skills is a whole lot smaller than I think you believe it is. It is my experience that the majority of the riding public feels that once they can operate a motorcycle, they now 'know how to ride'.

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Well, "we" is any experienced rider who's been around the block.

You feel qualified to speak for all of the experienced riders everywhere huh? Sounds like you think rather highly of yourself.

I do not think "not if, but when", and I do not teach students that either. I teach them to do everything they can to avoid crashing, I tell them crashing is possible, and sometimes likely, but it really isn't 'when'. I know a few riders with 30+ years behind them, and they have not crashed...ever. I see where you are coming from, I just disagree.

bmer97

04-06-2006, 07:37 AM

"THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN."

Your posts on this subject are pompous and narrow minded. In the real world vs artificial track environment, the rear brake is needed to stop in the shortest possible distance. Any competent study will show this. The 6-10 feet of distance saved by using the rear brake, may well be the difference between crashing and smiling.

I can see why you warn your students to start expecting to crash!!

myap

04-06-2006, 08:08 AM

Yeah, screw countersteering.

Outta Control

04-06-2006, 08:11 AM

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by tzrider
<snip>

While you didn't explicitly say steering was unimportant, it doesn't seem to rate for you as being among the most important survival skills a rider can have. You appear to assume everyone already knows how. Have I misunderstood?

The reason I persist on this is that unlike you, I have met many fairly experienced riders, even at the track, who didn't really know how to turn a bike that well. They could get it around a corner they were planning for, but in a surprise situation, they couldn't turn that fast or effectively. As long as that's the case, they're not nearly as safe as they could be. If I recognize the problem and can teach them to steer better, why would I "leave that to the MSF?"

I agree with you (all of you) that steering a bike properly is a very important skill, track or street.

In context to the original question of this thread, "Now what" my point was exactly what I said. Don't overly concern yourself with steering [at this point in time].

Does that clarify things?

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 09:29 AM

Man, a rough crowd here. I'm being slammed here because my comments are being interpreted outside the context of the original premise of this thread. I hope you read this fully before you perform another body slam.

The premise of the thread is :

"So, you take the MSF RiderCourse, you get yourself a nice, mellow starter bike, now what?"

The author also asked about countersteering and trailbraking. I replied:

"Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time. Learn to be relaxed as well."

Then I gave some lame explanation about trail braking. I never said steering is not important. I just said, in context to "now what", to practice being relaxed and looking through corners.

If one has taken the MSF course, then he understands the basics of countersteering (or push, whatever.) For normal street riding, steering IS a natural action, otherwise people on bicycles and motorcycles would be crashing all the time due to not steering correctly. The THEORY of countersteering is what people often have trouble with because it seems counter intuitive. I am assuming here that the vast majority of MSF graduates have experience riding a bicycle, and if that's correct, then unless a rider thinks too much about how to steer (gets all caught up in the theory) he/she already knows how to steer a motorcycle. Maybe not with as much proficiency has he will gain over time, but enough for now, enough to putt around gaining general riding experience.

But that aside, as a graduate of the MSF, countersteering has been explained and practiced for a number of hours. The basics are there. My suggestion was simply don't worry about it [right now] - practice being relaxed and looking through corners. I never said steering was not important and something not to work on. That is my opinion, agree or disagree, either way that’s cool.

Then I said:

"the next step for you is to just ride. Stay away from city riding if you can while you build your skills and discipline as a rider. Wear the best protective gear you can afford. And enjoy the ride."

That's all I said.

As to the braking issue, yes, I still use the front brake heavily in wet conditions, but I may also use some rear brake as well. Wet or dry, the front brake provides the most power. Does anyone recall this statement by me?

“And unless I'm dealing with low traction situations, it's 100% front brake on the street as well, on a sport bike, my GS, or when I had my Harley Davidsons or even the Goldwing.”

In the dirt, I use a lot more rear brake. But I also use the front brake on a dirt bike. I will admit to using the rear brake more often on a touring bike, but usually to smooth things out for a passenger, not because it’s really necessary.

You guys can toss out all the scientific proof you want, claiming that using the rear brake will shorten the braking distance. But that is not what happens in real life. For the vast majority of riders, using the rear brake in a panic situation is going to get them in trouble. The proof for that is at the typical accident scene, the one where a cage driver pulls out in front of a rider. One skid mark, from the rear tire. So much for any braking power. Had the rider known how to use 95% of the front braking power, there would be no skid mark and he would have stopped in a shorter distance. That is real world. And that is why ABS is such a fine idea for a street bike, as BMW has proven over and over again.

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Enchanter
Yeah, it's a skill we are all born with isn't it?

As someone that has instructed 8000+ people, I can tell you that countersteering is far from natural. (I can take out my E-penis and wave it around too. See, it really doesn't give me more respect does it? Pot, kettle....you're black.)

I don't have an epenis, so whatever. The fact that you have instructed such a large number of people gives you credibility, as should my experience.

Originally posted by Enchanter

Your opinions seemed to be based on your perception of the motorcycling public. The type of the public that seek out trackdays, and the type of the public that seek out elevated skills is a whole lot smaller than I think you believe it is. It is my experience that the majority of the riding public feels that once they can operate a motorcycle, they now 'know how to ride'.

I agree with this. You work with beginning riders and old timers alike (the latter who probably do think they know how to ride- I used to be in that camp myself until I was exposed to professional training.) I work primarily with track riders, which is a tiny portion of the riding community. Some of our focus is going to be different in regards to training.

Originally posted by Enchanter

You feel qualified to speak for all of the experienced riders everywhere huh? Sounds like you think rather highly of yourself.

Whatever.

Originally posted by Enchanter

I do not think "not if, but when", and I do not teach students that either. I teach them to do everything they can to avoid crashing, I tell them crashing is possible, and sometimes likely, but it really isn't 'when'. I know a few riders with 30+ years behind them, and they have not crashed...ever. I see where you are coming from, I just disagree.

That's fine. From a track perspective, it is a matter of when, not if. Otherwise one is not pushing the boundaries. The street is not the place to push the boundaries. On the track you wear the best gear possible because you ARE going to crash. On the street, you wear the best gear (hopefully) just in case...

I've averaged one crash per year on the track, which is why I wear leathers that cost $2,500 and Daytona Security boots that cost me $750 (they now cost $1,000.) I understand pain. LOL.

I have one street crash under my belt (2001). And I've yet to figure out why that damn VFR ljust dropped out from under me in a turn. May have been a cold edge of the tire, I dunno. :green

Enchanter

04-06-2006, 09:57 AM

Thanks for the time spent on your attempt at clarification.

We agree that using the front brake properly is important.

We agree that using the rear brake improperly is bad.

We disagree on how to correct the misuse of the rear brake. You feel that riders cannot use it properly, so they shouldn't use it at all. I feel that the solution is to train riders to use it properly.

As for the steering thing:
In your recent post trying to clarify yourself, you again state that "steering IS a natural action". Dude, you are waaaay off here. 70% of the students I see have never been at the controls of a motorcycle, 30% have ridden before, and 99.9% have ridden a bicycle before. Fully 80% of them attempt to change direction by leaning their body or shoulders, or knees into their intended direction. As I'm sure you do, I watch motorcyclists while I'm on the road. the majority of the ones that I see initiate their turn with body movement. I consider that an inadvertant input to the handlebar.

Why am I bringing up your comments on turning in a thread that was more concerned with braking? Well, because in my mind, I must consider that if you are off base in the cornering thing, I must also think about the other 'facts' you attempt to present.

edited for shpelling

tzrider

04-06-2006, 10:01 AM

Monkey,

Thanks for clarifying your position. As is often the case on threads like this, we agree more than it appeared.

You're right that by the time a rider has passed MSF, they have practiced countersteering quiite a bit. I don't quite agree that if you know how to steer a bicycle you can steer a motorcycle. While a bicycle countersteers, the rider can generate lean much more easily with his body weight than he can on a motorcycle.

Finally, I happen to agree with you more than not on braking. I too use the front almost exclusively, though on bikes that won't stoppie and therefore keep the rear wheel on the ground I may use the rear at times.

So, the OP has a reading list from this thread, as well as the good suggestion to get away from traffic and put some miles on. What else would people suggest he do?

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Outta Control

Oh...[b]
You're the expert, You tell me. ;)

DOES AnyOne Here Have Some Extra Butter. :teeth :later

Hey, you brought up Doohan, not me.

I don't know how Doohan used his thumb brake, but I do know why Duhammel used the rear brake on the RC51, and why Nicky didn't.

So many people think racers use the rear brake like it may be used on the street. Fact is, if a racer does us it, it is likely that he uses it in a much different way and for other purposes. Since you brought it up, I just thought it appropriate to hear your expert opinion on the subject. ;)

Enchanter

04-06-2006, 10:07 AM

Thanks for the interaction. I learned stuff. (seriously).

I think that we've beat this horse a bit too much, yeah?

I'm out.

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Enchanter
Why am I bringing up your comments on turning in a thread that was more concerned with braking? Well, because in my mind, I must consider that if you are so far off base in the cornering thing, I must also think about the other 'facts' you attempt to present.

Fair enough, and thanks.

I disagree on the steering thing. For a beginner, I am less concerned about perfect steering technique and more concerned about learning to be relaxed and looking through turns. Most Harley riders I see on the street don't steer/turn properly. From a techinical standpoint, that is not a good thing. But it is generally harmless to the operator. Few riders crash on the street because they initiate a turn incorrectly. MANY riders crash due to target fixation.

But we disagree, that's cool.

Let's compromise and put it thus: "practice countersteering, being relaxed, and looking through turns." Does that work? :)

Monkey_Boy

04-06-2006, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by tzrider

Finally, I happen to agree with you more than not on braking. I too use the front almost exclusively, though on bikes that won't stoppie and therefore keep the rear wheel on the ground I may use the rear at times.

ab, I thought the same thing until I had a really spooky panic stop on my HD Roadglide a few years back. I applied as much front brake as my hand could muster then gently applied the rear. The rear still locked up, and I mean I hardly touched the pedal.

Oh well, HD brakes suck! :laughing

Man, it's all good.

bmer97

04-06-2006, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Uh, You may not steer the bike with your eyeballs, but you sure as heck control the direction of travel with your vision.
I control direction with vision AND countersteering or counterbalancing techniques. Maybe you have a new type of motorcycle with bionic steering. Pictures??

[/B][/QUOTE] The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life. [/B][/QUOTE]

The 12 second defensive riding technique as taught in MSF is pretty important too. The most sophisticated unit of the motorcycle/rider complex is the brain, with defensive driving/riding skills well practiced.

BTW: Countersteering is not automatic in the newbie. In reflexive situations the wrong movement may end in death. After 38 years of riding, sans crash, I still enjoy fine tuning countersteering.

bmer97

04-06-2006, 10:26 AM

www.ridelikeapro.com is an excellent riding improvement site. I have purchased all of Jerry's dvds, and continue to learn and improve my riding. Check out the Police Rodeo to be humbled.

So much of the usual training/tips/advice on riding are somewhat exclusive to the track, and could get you killed on the street. Jerry is a police motorcycle instructor, and the training is street specific.

Orange cones are usually available at Wally Marts.

bmer97

04-06-2006, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
ab, I thought the same thing until I had a really spooky panic stop on my HD Roadglide a few years back. I applied as much front brake as my hand could muster then gently applied the rear. The rear still locked up, and I mean I hardly touched the pedal.

Checkmate.
You do NOT know how to use the rear brake for panic stopping.
The correct technique is to apply both brakes simultaneously, then fade the rear brake pressure as the front tire becomes more loaded.

Are you sure you are an instructor?

:confused

May be time for a MSF refresher course.

Monkey_Boy

04-07-2006, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by bmer97
Checkmate.
You do NOT know how to use the rear brake for panic stopping.
The correct technique is to apply both brakes simultaneously, then fade the rear brake pressure as the front tire becomes more loaded.

Are you sure you are an instructor?

:confused

May be time for a MSF refresher course.

Didn't realize we had a chess game going here. Ok, being the sucker I am, I'll bite.

Tell you what. Come join me on the track and let's do a 20 lap non-stop stint at Thunderhill, riding at 95%, safely, in control, with no panic. Let's make it easy and we'll run at a 2:02 minute lap pace, nothing too fast. I promise not to touch the rear brake. You may run a brand new set of tires of any type. I'll use a set of slicks with 6 track days on them.

20 laps is only 60 miles and will only take a little over 40 minutes. 15 corners per lap means 300 maximum braking situations. It will be a good test to see who needs the refresher course. Sound good to you?