Downshifting at the track question

[jboat]

EDIT: Did a search and found some interesting threads, most notably this one...
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145108&perpage=15&highlight=downshift&pagenumber=1

[KWAAACK]

Bleeep through your gears or you will fry your clutchpack and/or tranny.

I think it is time for a.....

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/158/174/2372072-pinkslipper.jpg

[jboat]

:laughing

Well, for what it's worth, my SV1000 already has a "Six-speed transmission features a wide diameter, hydraulically-operated clutch with back-torque limiter system - clutch cover includes a large-volume crankcase breather system"...

[KWAAACK]

you bastid! I want to go...

i'd be careful with the engine breaking especially on a twin. high probability of locking up the rear and sliding.. so blip with ease.

[freeohio]

Originally posted by jboat
Do you pull in the clutch and downshift through the 3 or 4 gears and then let the clutch out

How do you know what gear you're going to be in when you release the clutch?

There is only one person that I know of that has had success with that technique on the racetrack - Tom Kipp. Google if you haven't heard of him before.

Check out the Clutch Cam on the STAR School site: http://www.starmotorcycle.com/photo.htm

The rider is 1998 AMA 750 Supersport Champion Richie Alexander.

[jboat]

Originally posted by freeohio
How do you know what gear you're going to be in when you release the clutch?

There is only one person that I know of that has had success with that technique on the racetrack - Tom Kipp. Google if you haven't heard of him before.

Check out the Clutch Cam on the STAR School site: http://www.starmotorcycle.com/photo.htm

The rider is 1998 AMA 750 Supersport Champion Richie Alexander.

Hey thanks, that was pretty cool...It looks like I'm doing it the right way. I guess now I just need to get more consistent with my corner entry speed and finding reference points/braking markers...

[Wrong Way]

+1 on the clutch cam. I have watched that video before and it rocks. I remeber seeing some motogp footage of a cam that was on a shifter. The guy banged two downshifts and I was :wtf

I also believed that nobody really practiced that, maybe to recoup from a mistake.

I would believe that the engine compression would be enough of a benefit to allow you to engage each gear as you downshifted. Even if you could formulate it so you could prove that banging two downshifts gave such and such benefit in braking distance, how could it outweigh the risk of a miss-shift? Seems to me there would be a period of free-wheeling, which equals out of control.

[christofu]

The back-torque limiting system on your bike is basically a slipper clutch.

On a torque monster like the SV1000 though I'd limit it to 2 downshifts per clutch movement, at least until you get the hang of it.

Clutch in, bang, bang, clutch out. Clutch in, bang, bang, clutch out.

Just FYI, you won't need to shift down 4 gears anywhere at Infineon :laughing. You'll be OK with 3rd and 4th pretty much the entire way around :laughing
On my CRF450-powered racebike (which does have a slipper clutch) I don't think I've popped down more than 3 gears in a single clutch movement before (because I don't need to go more than 3 at any track).

On the subject of "not knowing which gear you're going to be in..." Ummm. Every time you click the shifter down, that's another gear. I don't need to let the clutch out to know that. When I'm riding a new bike or a new track I'll often shout out loud which gear I'm changing into every time I click the shifter. After a few laps though, I don't need that anymore. I just ride my reference points - "when I pass that pavement patch, pull in the clutch and pop down two gears"


I think it's also fairly well known by now (so stop rolling your eyes, dear reader) that I am a BIG proponent of NOT blipping the throttle on downshifts.

I personally like to make things as simple as possible. Throttle is for going faster, brakes are for going slower. Blipping can't play in that scenario.

I like to encourage people to understand that the clutch is not a binary switch. It's not "on" or "off". It's a finely analog mechanism that allows you to control how much torque is being applied from the engine to the transmission.

Try this:

Reach your braking point.
Release the throttle. Do not touch the throttle again until you're getting on the gas for the exit
Apply front brakes, and continue braking constantly
Pull in the clutch
Pop down a gear
Gently start releasing the clutch. How are your rpms?
Bike is revving up too fast in the new gear? Clutch back in and continue braking. Then release the clutch again slowly.
Bike is lugging a little? Clutch in and pop down to the next gear straight away


Eventually you get a good feel for what your bike is doing and your clutch/shift timing gets very good. You're going to be a little jerky trying this to start with but with practice it will all become smooth.

I'm not dissing blipping. I just personally find it unnecessary and distracting.

As always, I do recommend that people try different things to ultimately find things that work best for them.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by christofu
Try this:

Reach your braking point.
Release the throttle. Do not touch the throttle again until you're getting on the gas for the exit
Apply front brakes, and continue braking constantly
Pull in the clutch
Pop down a gear
Gently start releasing the clutch. How are your rpms?
Bike is revving up too fast in the new gear? Clutch back in and continue braking. Then release the clutch again slowly.
Bike is lugging a little? Clutch in and pop down to the next gear straight away


Eventually you get a good feel for what your bike is doing and your clutch/shift timing gets very good. You're going to be a little jerky trying this to start with but with practice it will all become smooth.

I'm not dissing blipping. I just personally find it unnecessary and distracting.

I used to do roughly what you describe above when I was somewhat new to riding. A friend back then suggested blipping and I spent the time to learn how. Your approach is arguably easier to learn, but once you are good at blipping, I think blipping actually consumes a little less of your attention.

When you let the clutch out slowly, you spend a longer period of time paying attention to engine rpm and the degree to which the clutch is engaged. This technique also wears the clutch out faster and the driveline is disengaged for a longer duration.

A blipped downshift can be done in about a quarter of a second or better. At that point, the sound of the engine will tell you if you need another one. An even simpler variation on blipping is downshifting without the clutch. To do this, simply give the throttle a light blip to unload the transmission, then click the downshift right as you begin to roll off. When you get the timing right, it's hard to downshift more smoothly than this and it won't hurt the transmission. These days, the only times I clutch are when stopping and starting. On some bikes, the gear interval between first and second is wide enough that I may clutch to smooth that shift. I do think this technique becomes easier to learn if you already have a decent blip downshift.

[Keith Code]

That is all well and good but clutchless downshifts for aggressive/track/race riding are the most efficient and take the absolute least attention to do once mastered.

I agree with learing how to blip and downshift. If for no other reason the rider has mastered the single most complex sequence that can be performed on any motorcycle.

There have been special situations where I did just what christofu does while riding on 125cc or 250cc two stroke bikes.

Looking at the grand scheme of things riders would learn how to do all of the above techniques and choose which one worked best in given situations.

To me that would be as good as it gets.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Keith Code
That is all well and good but clutchless downshifts for aggressive/track/race riding are the most efficient and take the absolute least attention to do once mastered.



Motorcycle gear boxes are not designed for clutchless downshifting. Downshifting without using the clutch is a fine way to destroy the gearbox.

ab said, "When you let the clutch out slowly, you spend a longer period of time paying attention to engine rpm and the degree to which the clutch is engaged. This technique also wears the clutch out faster and the driveline is disengaged for a longer duration."

I agree with Chris.

Watch any MotoGP racer, when they have the "clutch cam" running. Downshifting occurs quickly, along with clutch action, until shifting into the final gear selection for a corner. Then the clutch is released slowly and often not fully released until the apex. It is a GOOD THING to be very aware of the engine rpm and the degree to which the clutch has been released.

For a newer rider, yes, I would recommend getting all your braking and downshifting done before corner entry, well before, in fact... But for an intermediate track rider, he would do well to learn how to better manage downshifts as described. Advanced riders will do it as a matter of course. It is not necessary for street riding but a good skill to have nonetheless.

My use of the clutch differs slightly from what Chris is saying, but is very similar. The main difference being, I try to get my downshifting done before touching the brakes (if possible) and to avoid allowing the engine to over-rev, using the clutch lever, I slip the clutch while the engine runs near red line, until the bike slows enough to continue letting the clutch lever out until it's fully released.

As to wearing out the clutch sooner, it's nominal. The style is not hard on a clutch at all. It is race launches that quickly wear the plates.

[Keith Code]

Phil,

Do you have some evidence that clutchless downshifts are harmful to the gearbox or are you speculating that they are becuase of the constant mesh design of motorcycle trannies?

Keith

[Jakemate]

From what I have read, it is hard on the gear dogs. There was something in Road Racing World about that, some time ago. There was also someone on SBR who grenaded his tranny, (I think he flubbed a clutchless shift).

I, personally, don't use the clutch. I have over 30K problem free miles. Except for having to replace my clutch pack. Although that happened from the Dyno-Drags, (and I had to use the clutch for that).

YMMV.....

Cheers!

[Alexey]

In a race, I normally use the clutch once: at the start. When I had my F3, which I learned clutchless downshifts on, I raced it for 3 years without any problems with the transmission. I did replace the clutch pack, but that was an original 5 year old consumable part. I did encounter some issues with clutchless shifting on an EX500 I raced. When it was hot, the bike would start to shift with more effort after 3 or 4 laps. I was able to do a couple of laps using the clutch on downshifts and then the bike would behave normally at the end of the sprint race. I'm assuming it was due to temperature. The Hondas I've had didn't seem to mind clutchless shifts on the street or the track though.

Edit:
Thought I'd also add that I'm totally willing to rebuild the transmission on my racebike at the end of the season if it means I get to use a simpler, quicker technique that works for me. Obviously, everyone's entitled to their own riding style.

[darkie]

Being proficient in all methods of downshifting is the way to go. Mastering clutchless downshifts can come in handy if for example your bike tipped over and the lever was broken off, or getting up from a mid race crash with a broken lever, or (for older bikes) a broken cable, or a tricky section of a track that requires a downshift between a quick switchback, or, or, or...

The point is to have the right tool for the job and to know how to use it.

[jboat]

Thanks for all the input and suggestions everyone. I have always upshifted without the clutch, but have never tried downshifting without it. I guess there are alot of differing opinions on downshifting. I like Keith's idea of learning them all and using the right method for the appropriate situation.

My next trackday is coming up (Infineon April 26th) and I plan to use this time to concentrate on my corner entry speed, not to mention becoming familiar with the track manners of my new to me Sv1000. I have been to this track once before on my R1.

I also plan to take advantage of the instruction that Zoom Zoom has to offer. It seems I'm always letting off the throttle or braking too early. I've been watching MotoGP and AMA for years and I am amazed at how fast those guys can bang down through the gears. Maybe one of the instructors can follow me around a bit and tell me how I can improve in this area...

I am currently reading Keith Code's "The Soft Science of Roadracing" and have already read and re-re-read the "A Twist of the Wrist" books. A big thanks to Keith Code for writing these books and for taking the time to reply to my message. You have done alot to help motorcyclists become safer and more proficient riders, myself included...:thumbup

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by darkie
Being proficient in all methods of downshifting is the way to go. Mastering clutchless downshifts can come in handy if for example your bike tipped over and the lever was broken off, or getting up from a mid race crash with a broken lever, or (for older bikes) a broken cable, or a tricky section of a track that requires a downshift between a quick switchback, or, or, or...

The point is to have the right tool for the job and to know how to use it.

Can't disagree with this logic at all. :laughing I've done my share of clutchless downshifts from dirt bikes to the road track, on a street bike, including my Roadglide, even in a cage. I know how to manage without a clutch.

I'm not going to attempt to argue the design issues of current gear box design. I'm not an engineer and neither are you Mr. Code. Show me the page in your operator's manual where Honda or Suzuki et al explain how their machines are meant to be operated without the use of the clutch. The manufacturer will consider clutchless shifting as abuse and will not honor a warranty claim if damage results.

That's not to say one can't use clutchless shifting. For sure we do it all the time with upshifts on the track. Downshifting is another matter. You want to risk gearbox and/or drive train damage, for what? A perceived increase in lap times? Have at it, enjoy your delusion.

Clutchless downshifts are much harder (and harder to do well) on the drive train than an upshift. If clutchless downshifts were the normal way to ride a bike, then we'd all be doing it, including the best racers in the world. Fact is, the top racers don't do it, Mr. Code. And for a number of reasons I don't suggest to students that they do it either. Try it? Sure. Use it as a matter of course? What's the point?

A clutchless downshift provides absolutely no benefit whatsoever under normal circumstances. If one feels the need to know how to do it, have at it. Do it routinely? When you sell your bike, you have an ethical responsibility to disclose that the machine was used in this manner.

When I see Rossi or Hayden or Edwards or Bayliss routinely doing clutchless downshifts, then I'll reconsider.

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Keith Code
Phil,

Do you have some evidence that clutchless downshifts are harmful to the gearbox or are you speculating that they are becuase of the constant mesh design of motorcycle trannies?

Keith

Phil,

I have to tell you that I agreed with you for a long time until one of the best riders I know talked me into tyring it.

I see see your concerns and I know that manufacturers don't cover it in their operating books.

However, as you can see there are those who do clutchless downshift and have been doing so for, NoTime2ride for example has 30K miles of doing it with no ill effects, a long time. That is a lot of riding.

I've never heard of anyone who mastered it having gearbox problems unless the box had weak parts in it to begin with.

Whether Valentino uses it or not, it does have application and is quite useful in many situations.

All opinion and speculation aside the one thing that can't be argued is that it is simpler because it eliminates an entire action, pulling in the clutch, as well as forcing the rider to get the downshifts done quickly.

You have actually stated why the technique won't work for you. You downshift first, before pulling on the brakes. I'm not saying that is right or wrong right now. But...If you are using heroes as a model for your riding, you won't find anyone of the riders you mentioned doing that.

Best,
Keith

[afm199]

The only thing I will throw in here is when I raced Nortons I got wrist pump from the stiff clutch and routinely by the fourth lap I would be down shifting without the clutch.Those things were made of crushed beer cans and I never had a tranny problem. ( I had two or three trannies and changed them out every season, but I never broke a tranny doing this.) I have broken a tranny on my Sv shifting with the clutch. All that given I seldom downshift without the clutch.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
I'm not going to attempt to argue the design issues of current gear box design. I'm not an engineer and neither are you Mr. Code. Show me the page in your operator's manual where Honda or Suzuki et al explain how their machines are meant to be operated without the use of the clutch. The manufacturer will consider clutchless shifting as abuse and will not honor a warranty claim if damage results.

All of the above being said, I normally shift all of my bikes without the clutch and have for years. My ST1100 has ~130K miles on it and for about half of them I have both upshifted and downshifted without the clutch. While I haven't looked at the inside of the gearbox, I do check the oil for particles and I never find any.

The bike shifts very smoothly. Interestingly, I find I get essentially no missed shifts using the technique. Didn't get a lot before I stopped using the clutch, but it happened more then than it does now. I've talked to others who have noticed a similar thing. Not sure why that would be really.

I'm not necessarily trying to talk you into not using your clutch, but am giving you at least a few data points that indicate clutchless shifting doesn't hurt the bike.

As a matter of technique, I downshift pretty late in my braking cycle, after the revs have fallen. I would do this with or without the clutch.

[Alexey]

Originally posted by tzrider
As a matter of technique, I downshift pretty late in my braking cycle, after the revs have fallen. I would do this with or without the clutch.
I think this is an important aspect of any shifting approach. The timing of the shifts and whether or not the rider relies on heavy engine braking. I agree with you, tzrider, in that I find it preferrable to do the bulk of my braking, following by a sequence of downshifts (while still on the brakes), followed by transition from braking to cornering. This has nothing to do with using or not using the clutch. But leaving your braking for lower rpm's, in my opinion, is better both on the gearbox and piston rings. I've read in the past that the rings don't like to have a lot of vacuum on top because they are designed to seal things the other way around and it may induce blow-by.

[Jakemate]

Huh, reminds me of an old Pops Yoshimura quote, "Engine make bike go, brake make bike stop..."

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by NoTime2Ride
Huh, reminds me of an old Pops Yoshimura quote, "Engine make bike go, brake make bike stop..."

When I rode for Pops in the mid seventies I wanted to ask him lots of questions about engines.
I would start out by saying, "Pops, I want to ask you a question." His standard reply was, "You want know how make babies?"

Keith

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Keith Code


...

Whether Valentino uses it or not, it does have application and is quite useful in many situations.

...

You have actually stated why the technique won't work for you. You downshift first, before pulling on the brakes. I'm not saying that is right or wrong right now. But...If you are using heroes as a model for your riding, you won't find anyone of the riders you mentioned doing that.

Best,
Keith

Keith, that's cool. Like you, I encourage people to try different things, but I just don't see any real benefit for clutchless downshifting on a road course. Guess that's just me.

As for my style, I don't know the exact braking/downshifting order/timing of those riders. For me, as I pick up my pace, there are times when shifting and braking do overlap and I usually do initiate the downshift(s) first. Seems to work ok, considering this 51 year old can run sub 2 minute lap times at Thunderhill.

However, I'm open to trying other ways of managing braking and downshifting. The fact you bring up heros as models gets me to thinking that perhaps I ought to reconsider my style. Thanks for the tip!

Ernie, I hear you about the old Norton. I rode an old 1948 Panhead HD after high school, the bike had been converted to a hand clutch (formerly foot operated.) The pull was absurdly difficult. So was the shift. LOL

My 1975 Maico 450's clutch was good for one thing only, and that was to stab the bike into gear and go. It dragged so bad as to be worthless for anything else (never did figure out how to make it work right.) So once on the move, I never used it. :)

[afm199]

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
K considering this 51 year old can run sub 2 minute lap times at Thunderhill.




Damn reckless kids :laughing :laughing

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Keith, that's cool. Like you, I encourage people to try different things, but I just don't see any real benefit for clutchless downshifting on a road course. Guess that's just me.

As for my style, I don't know the exact braking/downshifting order/timing of those riders. For me, as I pick up my pace, there are times when shifting and braking do overlap and I usually do initiate the downshift(s) first. Seems to work ok, considering this 51 year old can run sub 2 minute lap times at Thunderhill.

However, I'm open to trying other ways of managing braking and downshifting. The fact you bring up heros as models gets me to thinking that perhaps I ought to reconsider my style. Thanks for the tip!

Ernie, I hear you about the old Norton. I rode an old 1948 Panhead HD after high school, the bike had been converted to a hand clutch (formerly foot operated.) The pull was absurdly difficult. So was the shift. LOL

My 1975 Maico 450's clutch was good for one thing only, and that was to stab the bike into gear and go. It dragged so bad as to be worthless for anything else (never did figure out how to make it work right.) So once on the move, I never used it. :)

Phil,

Hmmm, bragging about how old you are, you'd better watch out, there are other old farts out there that are pretty fast...

I don't think that you should look at those guys (heroes) for direction in your own riding. It just confuses issues.

For example, Nicky uses one or two fingers on the brake, Rossi uses four--who is right? No one.

Here is a quote from John Hopkins when asked how he steers the bike, "I don't know it just happens."

All I was saying is that with the sequence that you outlined you would not be able to do clutchless shifts in the downward direction. That's all.

Are they useful, some fast guys say yes. Are they actually bad for the bike?
The evidence says that poperly done they are acceptable and don't cause damage.

Anyhow, keeping an open line to different things will probably lead you to the same conclusions that I have come to: some things are vital, some things are ture basics and some things just sound good or look good and wind up to be more trouble than they are
worth, backing the bikes in is a great example of that.

Keith

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Keith Code


Here is a quote from John Hopkins when asked how he steers the bike, "I don't know it just happens."



Keith,

LOL, yeah, well, John is right, it does just happen. And for him, the physics don't matter. Steering just happens for the rest of us, too.

Emerson said experience is far more valuable than book knowledge. I agree.

Phil

[Keith Code]

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Keith,

LOL, yeah, well, John is right, it does just happen. And for him, the physics don't matter. Steering just happens for the rest of us, too.

Emerson said experience is far more valuable than book knowledge. I agree.

Phil

What if he stopped crashing after understanding how to steer his bike?

Keith

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Keith Code
What if he stopped crashing after understanding how to steer his bike?

Keith

What if he got on a real GP bike instead of that Suzuki?

:cool

[DaveToo]

(old thread, I know...)

I'm just a slow, middle-aged newb and sometime-student of James, Phil, and Ernie at different times; the technique I like is what I learned from the STAR gang: I downshift when I've rolled off the throttle to about 50% or less, so that the engine speed floats up without having to whack the twist grip.

[darkie]

Try it and if it works good for you then all's fine.