What RPM range is best to be in, on street? Higher or lower RPMs?

[faz]

Given the fact that most recent inline bikes have no problem being revved up to 10k RPM or more these days, my question from more experienced track/twisty riders is:

Given you don't need the power, i.e. you are carrying enough speed that is close to the top speed you are willing to do...

do you do that speed at lower gears/higher rpm's, or do them at higher gear/lower rpm's??


I tend to keep things in higher gears and lower rpms. My reasons:

- better for the engine (but lets say this is insignificant in today's engines for the sake of discussion.)

- less choppy throttle response

- lower in the power band, hence less chance of rear sliding as you get on the gas while leaned over

- less diving while getting off throttle if you have to, less upsetting of the bike

- more relaxed riding experience, translating to better attention to other things


I would really like to hear pros and cons of riding in each manner (high vs. low rpms in twisties), and what other more experienced riders find works for them best.

Thanks.

[Sidewalk]

Originally posted by faz
Given the fact that most recent inline bikes have no problem being revved up to 10k RPM or more these days, my question from more experienced track/twisty riders is:

Given you don't need the power, i.e. you are carrying enough speed that is close to the top speed you are willing to do...

do you do that speed at lower gears/higher rpm's, or do them at higher gear/lower rpm's??


I tend to keep things in higher gears and lower rpms. My reasons:

- better for the engine (but lets say this is insignificant in today's engines for the sake of discussion.)

- less choppy throttle response

- lower in the power band, hence less chance of rear sliding as you get on the gas while leaned over

- less diving while getting off throttle if you have to, less upsetting of the bike

- more relaxed riding experience, translating to better attention to other things


I would really like to hear pros and cons of riding in each manner (high vs. low rpms in twisties), and what other more experienced riders find works for them best.

Thanks. I don't think I am a more experienced rider, but I will ride using both methods depending on my mood. Since I don't do track days (not by choice), mood really is the limiting factor to my riding style.

In the simplest term to describe why I do things in high or low RPM's, it all comes down to:

a. Do I want to cruise and enjoy the ride?

b. Do I want that rush?

If I want that rush, I am not going to get it by being in second gear coming out of a 30 MPH corner. I am going to be in first gear, gently rolling on, using my whole lane and feeling the thrust as the bike lunges forward (though since it is the street, I don't stay rolled on for very long, and never shift up).

If I am not in the mood to get that rush and just want to enjoy the ride, then I will sit in second or third gear, not bother leaning off, and just enjoy the whole thing.

Throttle response can be a problem of either bad tuning or bad throttle control, or the two combined. If you know the bike is well tuned, maybe that throttle hand needs some practice? I drilled on that a lot when I first got the RR.

Engine braking when riding hard isn't much of an issue. I am rolling off the throttle while I am squeezing in on the brakes. I am trailing off the brakes as I am arresting my lean angle, I never give the engine a chance to jerk my speed around. If I am just out for a cruise, then my gear selection doesn't allow for much engine braking anyway, so I still rely on braking for speed control.

As far as engine wear, I don't even worry about it.

[the grinch]

my expierience tells me that motorcycles seem to handle better at higher rpms
reciprocating mass?maybe makes the bike more stable

you also need to have enough power available to throttle through the turn(to low an rpm range will lug the bike through the turn making the bike run wide),this has a lot to do with how quick a pace you are on though,
i mean obviously if you are going quickly you need to have more power to keep the bike accelerating properly




on the freeway though,hey , lower rpms less strain on moving parts

it is nice to have escape power available though

[JPM]

I am no expert on this by any means but it depends if you are looking for good gas mileage and relaxing ride or performance and quick reaction. On my own like I usually keep it on the low side because I like the smooth quiet relaxing ride. However at work I keep it on the higher side because I want to be able to move quick, u-turn, and be able to go after someone or respond to a quickly changing situation.

[plumber]

I got tired of my inline 4. All of the meat was high up the flagpole. The boxer hits the limiter at 8. There is plenty of push above 5. It's also less conspicuous.

.02

[the grinch]

Originally posted by JPM
I am no expert on this by any means but it depends if you are looking for good gas mileage and relaxing ride or performance and quick reaction. On my own like I usually keep it on the low side because I like the smooth quiet relaxing ride. However at work I keep it on the higher side because I want to be able to move quick, u-turn, and be able to go after someone or respond to a quickly changing situation.


you aren't the CHP who pulled my buddy over for following you on 17, are you?(BMW r1100s)

that was funny

[faz]

to low an rpm range will lug the bike through the turn making the bike run wide


I am lost on the above statement. :confused
If you get on the gas hard enough, the front extends enough and the rear compresses enough to make it run wider too, no??


On the pace thing, I guess I have to make it a bit more clear. Say I am running a spirited pace. Even on my F4i going through 9 at my highest pace, I could keep it in the second gear and go through a 30 mph turn at 55-60 mph in second gear, or do the same thing in gear 4. They would both result in good enough speed through the turn, and not too different a push out of the turn. On my current 1kRR that is even less of a problem. On both Superhawk and SV1k, it was even less of a problem.

So, the question is: am I better off keeping the RPM high through the turn and generally through the ride, or keep it low, while still going the same extremely high knee dragging speed in twisties??

(the knee dragging comment is there to emphasise on 'the same speed' part, not to say it is ok to do so, or to suggest that is a right speed for streets.)

[the grinch]

i have never had a bike run wide from applying too much throttle
just lots of slidding and highsides,and screaming ,and pain,and ambulance bills

your expierience may vary



but i still think that my bike handles best when i am pulling about 8000 rpms at the 'throttle on' point in the turn(redline is at 11,500)

[faz]

:laughing :laughing

[Snoggin]

I would say it really depends on the bike. On my liter bike it is really impossible to ride high in the rpm range on the street.2nd gear 10k rpm is weel above 100 mph. Now I will ride like that if the conditions etc are ok but not for long, thats what the track is for. even so on the street i would rarely get out of third gear on weekend twisty rides. I dont think even on my 600 i would be pushing the envelope in the rpm dept much on the street. the level of performance is inappropriate. on the track i would be riding between 10-15k or whatever the redline is all the time

[grandmastershake]

i am at about 7K on the streets. i like knowing that i got an assload of power to pull me out of a sticky situation.

[Wrong Way]

High RPM's

[JPM]

Originally posted by the grinch
you aren't the CHP who pulled my buddy over for following you on 17, are you?(BMW r1100s)

that was funny

Not me, sorry. But feel free to share the story with us.

[faz]

Originally posted by Snoggin
I would say it really depends on the bike. On my liter bike it is really impossible to ride high in the rpm range on the street.2nd gear 10k rpm is weel above 100 mph. Now I will ride like that if the conditions etc are ok but not for long, thats what the track is for. even so on the street i would rarely get out of third gear on weekend twisty rides.

Exactly the reason I brought this up. You can easily do the same 'sane' speeds in higher or lower rpms. If I find out one way is better than the other, I will do it the better way.

[bmer97]

Originally posted by plumber
I got tired of my inline 4. All of the meat was high up the flagpole. The boxer hits the limiter at 8. There is plenty of push above 5. It's also less conspicuous.

.02

Me too!! Present love: BMW R1150R...power if I choose, cruising slower most of time when radar guns are a problem. Former Ninja-eer.

[motosports]

Consider re gearing the bike. 1 down in the front and one up in the rear. This will help tighten up the shift points and help give the bike better pulling power when you are riding in lower rpms.

Hold on when you get up in the power band, it gets pretty wild!!

I'm fairly certain that most sportbikes are geared intentionally taller in stock trim to prevent newbies and squids from dumping their bikes in the first 5 minutes of ownership.

5-8k rpm would be a good compromise between performance and wear and tear on the motor.

Anything in the last 1500 rpms of the motor of most sportbikes is mainly over rev anyway.

[swerv512]

I definitely ride in the low low rpm range around the street, rarely getting over 7k. then again i ride a r1 so 7k in first gear is already a heafty ticket...

[Oddjob]

I ride halfway to the redline (e.g. 6-7K on a 12K redline). This gives me instant power if I need it and also lots of engine drag to slow the bike down if I need to do that (along with the brakes, of course).

[faz]

One of the pro-high-rpm reasons I hear from others is the engine braking to slow down in twisities. To me, there is no difference between engine braking and using the brakes to slow down. In fact, I think one can achieve their required braking quicker (and have it over with quick and early) if one uses brakes more so than the engine.

Are there any advantages in using the engine instead of the brakes, or using more engine/less brakes combination? :confused

[Wrong Way]

I have found that high RPM's on the track can, at times, cause me to go slower around the turns. The redline acts as a ceiling to my acceleration until I can get another upshift. An upshift might not be the smoothest after noticing I have hit the ceiling. Planning ahead makes the difference here.

On the street, quickly going fast to slow or slow to fast is not so important. If you plan slowing for a turn in advance, by rolling off the throttle, the bike will settle and provide more stability for front braking or even no braking. It’s just the way I do it. These are some thoughts that have gone through in my mind as I have chosen different techniques.

The next thing I need to work on is going through certain turns in a higher gear (lower RPM) on the big track. I have practiced it on the little 50 (entering turns at a lower RPM) and I now use fewer of the low gears. I just increased my speed to bring the RPM’s into the power band upon entry (maybe trail breaking). If increasing speed isn’t an option then I would have to address changing sprockets. But choosing to lug it and then gradually push the speeds of the bike worked better than waiting for the apex to end, and then upshift.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
... . But choosing to lug it and then gradually push the speeds of the bike worked better than waiting for the apex to end, and then upshift.

:wow

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
I have found that high RPM's on the track can, at times, cause me to go slower around the turns. The redline acts as a ceiling to my acceleration until I can get another upshift. An upshift might not be the smoothest after noticing I have hit the ceiling. Planning ahead makes the difference here.

Something to think about: The outer edge of the tire has a smaller circumferance than the center. The engine speed difference between the bike at full lean and fully upright is about 500 RPM. That's half a gear. If you can bring the bike up earlier when you exit a corner, you may be able to delay your upshift.

Alternatively, try a GP shift pattern. Makes it pretty easy to snatch an upshift while you're leaned over. The occasions on which you'd *downshift* while leaned over are few.

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by tzrider
Alternatively, try a GP shift pattern. Makes it pretty easy to snatch an upshift while you're leaned over. The occasions on which you'd *downshift* while leaned over are few.

While in a turn, if there is available traction for going a bit faster, there should be traction for an upshift also. What about catching that upshift near peak horsepower versus doing it at a slightly lower RPM, where the required amount of traction would be a little less? If you are at redline, won’t an upshift put you right at peak horsepower? This is one of my concerns about upshifting in turns, not having the available traction if the bike is screaming and will ooze uncontrollable horsepower to the rear wheel.

Also, sometimes I find my self not trimming so much speed off at a particular turn, lots of RPM’s before the apex. Maybe not quite redline, but know it’s a juggle of, bringing the bike up, twisting the throttle and grabbing the gear. Alternatively, if I could carry it a gear higher and after practicing the turn, manage a little more speed, I may find myself entering the power band on the exit and catch a shift when the bike is more upright.

Thanks for the info on the circumference

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
While in a turn, if there is available traction for going a bit faster, there should be traction for an upshift also. What about catching that upshift near peak horsepower versus doing it at a slightly lower RPM, where the required amount of traction would be a little less?
I don't quite understand the last statement above. Are you saying you believe it takes more traction to upshift near peak power? If so, more about that below...

Originally posted by Wrong Way
If you are at redline, won’t an upshift put you right at peak horsepower? This is one of my concerns about upshifting in turns, not having the available traction if the bike is screaming and will ooze uncontrollable horsepower to the rear wheel.

If I'm upshifting in a turn, it will be well after the apex and normally at a point where I'm beginning to relax my lean angle. In this situation, I'm using less grip for cornering and can use a little more for acceleration.

Even if that were not the case -- say you're in a very long increasing radius corner and need to get an upshift in while leaned over -- you should be able to shift without disrupting the chassis. I upshift without the clutch and come back into the throttle so the acceleration matches what I was doing in the prior gear. However you do it, your throttle control determines how much power you're putting to the ground. If you're "oozing uncontrollable horsepower to the rear wheel," It's a throttle control issue, not a gear selection issue. You can get away with poor throttle control if you're in a higher gear but then you're in the wrong gear for the drive.

[Wrong Way]

I can certainly see all the points made, they make perfect sense.

I hope I can clarify what I was specifically referring to. I certainly enjoy shifting while leaned and riding in higher RPM ranges, so it’s nice to hear what others have to say about it.

If I am practicing on a particular turn, a turn that I am having trouble driving out of due to lack of top end, I might consider entering the turn in a higher gear. This is where the theory of using high RPM’s could hurt my speed.

If I enter the turn, the very next lap, in the next higher gear, my time will suffer even more. If I stick it out, lap after lap, I may gradually build speed in that turn. There may be potential to pick up enough speed to be at the appropriate RPM for the exit, even though I am in a higher gear.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
If I enter the turn, the very next lap, in the next higher gear, my time will suffer even more. If I stick it out, lap after lap, I may gradually build speed in that turn. There may be potential to pick up enough speed to be at the appropriate RPM for the exit, even though I am in a higher gear.

I hear what you're saying. The matter of how fast you can ride a given turn is ultimately separate from what gear you ride the turn in, though one affects the other. I often ride a gear high until I've found the maximum corner speed I'm going to be comfortable with. If the gear is still too high, I'll begin to take the turn in a lower gear once I get to the point where I care about my drive. I generally try to work corner speeds out first, then add harder braking and acceleration later in the day. That approach helps me figure the corner speeds out without messing with other variables at the same time. Once I understand how fast I can ride the turn, it's quite a bit simpler to figure out what gear is best at my desired entry and exit speeds.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by tzrider
You can get away with poor throttle control if you're in a higher gear but then you're in the wrong gear for the drive.

Experienced liter bike riders will tell you it is better to be near red line on corner exit, and to require an upshift once you're more upright. Why? Because if you do spin up the rear, the rev limiter will keep the tire from getting away from you. It helps reduce the risk of a high side.

It makes sense when you think it over a bit.

A liter bike is 99% about throttle control, as you pointed out.

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy
Experienced liter bike riders will tell you it is better to be near red line on corner exit, and to require an upshift once you're more upright. Why? Because if you do spin up the rear, the rev limiter will keep the tire from getting away from you. It helps reduce the risk of a high side.

It makes sense when you think it over a bit.

A liter bike is 99% about throttle control, as you pointed out.

Does the ZX10 have a rev limiter?

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
Does the ZX10 have a rev limiter?

Yes indeed.