Some Questions Raised by Proficient Motorcycling

[RickBlaine]

I've been reading Proficient Motorcycling, and I have found it extremely helpful, but I have a couple of questions about what I have read so far:

1. When slowing down before entering a turn, e.g. a highway exit ramp, I often fear that the car following behind me is going to flatten me. Am I slowing to much or too quickly, or is this an irrational fear?

2. Hugh says to "cover the brake" when approaching intersections and alleys. However, to cover the brake I must roll off the throttle, and that causes me to slow down considerably -- risking either getting rear ended or having to roll back on the throttle, possibly just at the moment that I will need to brake. Am I missing something? How do I cover the brake without (engine) braking?

[tzrider]

It probably isn't possible to help with your first question without knowing more. One thought about that though: When you slow down, other vehicles will get physically closer to you even if they are the same number of *seconds* behind you as they were before. In either case, while you are right to be concerned about the following distance of the vehicle behind you, it wouldn't be so good to let the guy behind you push you into a corner faster than you want to go.

On covering the brakes, if you use a couple of fingers for braking, you can cover them without adversely affecting your throttle use. I personally cover the brakes all the time. One benefit of this to me is the fingers I leave draped over the brake lever give me a reference point for throttle position and help stabilize my hand as I go over bumpy ground.

[RickBlaine]

Thanks. This leads to another question. Where are your fingers on the brake lever? (near the center of the bike, where the lever is closer, or near the end of the handlebar, where the lever is farther away (but you have more leverage)? I have been wondering whether I should move my grips farther out on the bars, so that when I squeeze the levers I am doing so closer to the ends. Does that make sense?

[Sidewalk]

Originally posted by RickBlaine
I've been reading Proficient Motorcycling, and I have found it extremely helpful, but I have a couple of questions about what I have read so far:Good choice. When you are done, consider the second book and look into Sport Riding techniques.

Originally posted by RickBlaine
1. When slowing down before entering a turn, e.g. a highway exit ramp, I often fear that the car following behind me is going to flatten me. Am I slowing to much or too quickly, or is this an irrational fear?First off, put yourself where you are most visible. Usually for me, I will ride in the left tire track where my tail light is obvious to the driver behind me. When my off ramp is coming up, I will put on my turn signal and flash my tail light a couple of times. Then I will move into the right tire track soon before making my exit.

If it is a longer off ramp then I won't slow down at all until I am off the freeway. If it is a short one, then I will flash my brake lights again right before I start slowing down. I have a habit of always flashing my lights before slowing down not matter what. I also give an occasional random flash anytime just as a reminder to the person behind me that I am there.

With a lot of practice with your braking, you may consider not braking at all until you are off the freeway. Even on short off-ramps, I will wait until I am off the freeway most of the times before slowing down at all. But I ride a modern super sport so mechanically, braking isn't an issue.

Originally posted by RickBlaine
2. Hugh says to "cover the brake" when approaching intersections and alleys. However, to cover the brake I must roll off the throttle, and that causes me to slow down considerably -- risking either getting rear ended or having to roll back on the throttle, possibly just at the moment that I will need to brake. Am I missing something? How do I cover the brake without (engine) braking? I always cover the brake and clutch with my first and middle fingers. Some people use only one finger, some use their middle and ring, your results may vary. But always having your fingers over the brake shortens response time, and makes it easy to give the brake a tap to flash the person behind me, or to make sure the disc is clear of water, or any other number of good reasons.

It is possible tha you have your brake lever adjusted too far out. I can use the entire throttle range without removing my fingers.

Originally posted by RickBlaine
Thanks. This leads to another question. Where are your fingers on the brake lever? (near the center of the bike, where the lever is closer, or near the end of the handlebar, where the lever is farther away (but you have more leverage)? I have been wondering whether I should move my grips farther out on the bars, so that when I squeeze the levers I am doing so closer to the ends. Does that make sense?On my RR, my fingers are very close to the pivot point. There is techincally less leverage there, but that isn't an issue. On my KTM I use three fingers, so the lever is pretty well covered. But the KTM has a single small disc, and I can pinch my fingers between the bar and brake lever if I am braking hard enough.

Most important part is having everything adjusted to fit you best. Adjust your levers (clutch, front and rear brake, and shifter) for what is most comfortable for you. May even need to adjust your clip-ons/handlebar too.

[kxmike]

Originally posted by RickBlaine
Thanks. This leads to another question. Where are your fingers on the brake lever? (near the center of the bike, where the lever is closer, or near the end of the handlebar, where the lever is farther away (but you have more leverage)? I have been wondering whether I should move my grips farther out on the bars, so that when I squeeze the levers I am doing so closer to the ends. Does that make sense?

The brakes on my fzr suck, so I did adjust the grips/lever so I can use the outside of the lever for more leverage (it does make a difference). It might be a problem for people with small hands though, because the reach is further. My r6 has awesome brakes (sst lines/hh pads) and two fingers on the pivot is all I need;) .

[racerXgirl]

Originally posted by Sidewalk

Most important part is having everything adjusted to fit you best. Adjust your levers (clutch, front and rear brake, and shifter) for what is most comfortable for you. May even need to adjust your clip-ons/handlebar too.

+1 absolutely adjust the levers so that you're comfortable with them.

Covering the brake is quite helpful in keeping you from grabbing a whole lot of brake especially in traffic. Since your fingers are already there, it's easier to ease into breaking and squeezing, rather than grabbing at them in a panic situation.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by bumblebeeninja
Covering the brake is quite helpful in keeping you from grabbing a whole lot of brake especially in traffic. Since your fingers are already there, it's easier to ease into breaking and squeezing, rather than grabbing at them in a panic situation.

MSF Instructors and RiderCoaches across the country would disagree with you. New/novice riders are waay to abrupt on the front brake when they have their fingers covering the brake.

It's not the location of the fingers that make for inappropriate braking. The riders mental capability is the issue. Just as you said, it's the panic that causes the grab of the brake. When a rider panics, having the hand around the throttle tends to slow down their grabbing of the brake (in a panic).

[racerXgirl]

Originally posted by Enchanter
MSF Instructors and RiderCoaches across the country would disagree with you. New/novice riders are waay to abrupt on the front brake when they have their fingers covering the brake.

It's not the location of the fingers that make for inappropriate braking. The riders mental capability is the issue. Just as you said, it's the panic that causes the grab of the brake. When a rider panics, having the hand around the throttle tends to slow down their grabbing of the brake (in a panic).

That's a really good point. I guess it's good practice to do once you can get over the panic part. It's just something that I've been taught when I started out and sorta made sense to me.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Enchanter
It's not the location of the fingers that make for inappropriate braking. The riders mental capability is the issue. Just as you said, it's the panic that causes the grab of the brake. When a rider panics, having the hand around the throttle tends to slow down their grabbing of the brake (in a panic).

This bit confuses me. "Grabbing" the brake seems to me to be a function of snapping the brake on too fast and too hard. Getting the rider's fingers off the lever may affect how quickly he can get his fingers back to the lever, but it doesn't seem to me that it would affect how quickly or hard he pulls the lever.

The MSF's position on this and their advice to use all four fingers on the brake has always puzzled me. Are these two things related? For example, I can imagine that if you accepted that it's a good idea to keep your fingers off the brakes until you need the brakes, it might be easier to get all of your fingers back to the lever than just getting a couple of them back.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by tzrider
This bit confuses me. "Grabbing" the brake seems to me to be a function of snapping the brake on too fast and too hard. Getting the rider's fingers off the lever may affect how quickly he can get his fingers back to the lever, but it doesn't seem to me that it would affect how quickly or hard he pulls the lever.

The MSF's position on this and their advice to use all four fingers on the brake has always puzzled me. Are these two things related? For example, I can imagine that if you accepted that it's a good idea to keep your fingers off the brakes until you need the brakes, it might be easier to get all of your fingers back to the lever than just getting a couple of them back.

I've been teaching MSF and MSF based programs for over 16 years and I can tell you that a novice that has their fingers on the brake lever GRABS the lever 99.99% of the time. The extra time that it takes a novice to get their fingers from the throttle to the bars seems to be enough time to slow down their application of the brake.

As far as 4 finger braking, novices (and others that get profecient at it) tend to be able to modulate/control the front brake better than using it with 2 fingers.

In the last MotoGP race, the camera showed that Rossi was using all 4 fingers.

[Sidewalk]

Tes, but you know that track riding with MotoGP stars and street riding are totally different.

But if your only point was modulation efforst, then it does do the job.

[Kenwho]

I know it doesn't always seem to be the case, but cars actually should stop better than bikes. It is a matter of the size of the contact patch they have with the road versus ours.

The surface area of tire that is touching the road on a car tire is quite a bit more and divided better between four wheels (for some porsches it is 50/50 in a straight line). For a motorcycle the patch is small and most of your braking force goes to the front wheel.

Assuming speed is equal:

3000 lb car / 4 wheels / 4 square inches contact patch = 187.5 psi

400 lb motorcycle / 1 wheel / 2 square inches contact patch = 200 psi

Now, whether or not the car driver APPLIES the brakes is another matter and something to definitely think about.

As for how many fingers to cover the brake, my friend got in an accident a while ago on his gsxr and now he can only count to three on his braking hand. Foot for thought.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Kenwho
I know it doesn't always seem to be the case, but cars actually should stop better than bikes. It is a matter of the size of the contact patch they have with the road versus ours.

Car and motorcycle magazine braking test results indicate that overall, motorcycles still stop better than cars.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Sidewalk
Tes, but you know that track riding with MotoGP stars and street riding are totally different.

But if your only point was modulation efforst, then it does do the job.

Yes I know it's different, but in this case it is opposite of what many people argue: that racers only use 2 fingers.

Yes my point was about modulation.

And don't call me Tes. You don't know me well enough.:p

[Kenwho]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Car and motorcycle magazine braking test results indicate that overall, motorcycles still stop better than cars.

Good point. Are we talking about professional drivers or average drivers?

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Kenwho
Good point. Are we talking about professional drivers or average drivers?

Magazine guys = better than average car and bike guys. By definition, they are professionals.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally posted by Sidewalk
Tes, but you know that track riding with MotoGP stars and street riding are totally different.


Eh, not totally different. Rossi's use of 3-4 fingers is just unusual in the racing scene. I suspect he learned this on a bike that had poor brakes, and as a kid, he was skinny as a stick (he still is) and probably had little strength.

The 4 finger thing makes perfect sense for new riders. The rider can choose to use fewer fingers in the future if that suits him.

Braking systems on modern sport bikes are designed to be operated with two fingers by someone with average strength. However, the typical HD has piss-poor brakes and you need all four fingers to bring one of those to a rapid stop. :laughing

A few years ago I tried using 3 fingers and it just didn't work for me after using 2 and 1 finger for years. (1 finger in wet conditions or the latter part of trail braking)

[Sidewalk]

I was Rossi's size until I got fat :D

[Killermarmot]

This raises a question on covering the brake and clutch and such for me. I took the MSF course and got my license etc. Been riding my GS for maybe 2 weeks now and they tought to cover the clutch ALWAYS, and never cover the brake. My compunction is the opposite, like you guys are suggesting, and I feel the same from MTN biking. one or two fingers over the brake lever so when something jumps out of nowhere you can squeeze, not let go of throttle maybe move your hand and pottentially grab a S*%t load of brakes. What if any use is there for always covering the clutch except at low speed or in traffic where you want to be able to stop sudenly, keep the bike running and in gear, and move out of a maybe dangerous unfolding situation?

[kxmike]

Originally posted by Killermarmot
This raises a question on covering the brake and clutch and such for me. I took the MSF course and got my license etc. Been riding my GS for maybe 2 weeks now and they tought to cover the clutch ALWAYS, and never cover the brake. My compunction is the opposite, like you guys are suggesting, and I feel the same from MTN biking. one or two fingers over the brake lever so when something jumps out of nowhere you can squeeze, not let go of throttle maybe move your hand and pottentially grab a S*%t load of brakes. What if any use is there for always covering the clutch except at low speed or in traffic where you want to be able to stop sudenly, keep the bike running and in gear, and move out of a maybe dangerous unfolding situation?

I come from a dirt bike background so I use my clutch alot more than the average street rider . I use it like a slipper clutch, to control the rear of the bike on corner entry (at high speed) and sometimes on corner exit. I use it to wheelie once in awhile too:teeth . I use to cover it (like the brake) but found that I would unintentionally slip the clutch (slightly) when excellerating through the gears...so now I take my hand off the lever after I've exited a corner.
One reason I can think of for "covering the clutch" is for sudden mechanical failures. If you ever have a throttle stick or a motor sieze at high speed...you'd better be quick to pull the clutch in;) . (this isn't likely to happen to the average street rider though).

[kentuckyfried]

Covering the clutch is very handy when making a a sudden stop....

The guy at the MSF encouraged me to do that, b/c at the very beginning, I had bad wrist position and had a tendency to roll on the throttle when braking. It took a bit of time, but that problem got fixed. Covering the clutch makes sure that one does run into that problem. ;)


Originally posted by Killermarmot
This raises a question on covering the brake and clutch and such for me. I took the MSF course and got my license etc. Been riding my GS for maybe 2 weeks now and they tought to cover the clutch ALWAYS, and never cover the brake. My compunction is the opposite, like you guys are suggesting, and I feel the same from MTN biking. one or two fingers over the brake lever so when something jumps out of nowhere you can squeeze, not let go of throttle maybe move your hand and pottentially grab a S*%t load of brakes. What if any use is there for always covering the clutch except at low speed or in traffic where you want to be able to stop sudenly, keep the bike running and in gear, and move out of a maybe dangerous unfolding situation?

[Enchanter]

The reason that the MSF has students cover the clutch and not the brake is for safety in the class. Covering the clutch helps students squeeze it quickly when/if they panic. Keeping four fingers wrapped around the throttle reduces the probability of a student grabbing the front brake in a panic. Instant full application of the clutch is safer than instant full application of the front brake.

Once a person has reduced or eliminated their panic reactions (when riding) there may be times when covering the front brake could be a good idea. Bumper to bumper traffic is only one example where reduced reaction times could prove to be an advantage.

[RickBlaine]

My MSF Basic course told us to cover the clutch when we started. On the second day, though, my instructor told me to stop doing it.