Track skills vs Street skills

[MrCrash]

I've seen a few people post about how they believe track skills don't apply to street situations. If you're of this opinion, can you elaborate?

My stance: The control that a racer develops on the track is directly applicable to the street. Due to their experience at speed, racers will able to stop harder and turn faster than their street counterparts, giving them more options when situations arise.

Experienced racers also have a better feel for traction under different conditions, as well as the ability to recover from situations where traction is lost.

There's a reason racers are often slower than experienced street riders on public roads. They take into account the possibility of surface conditions around blind corners. They know that they're pretty much helpless if they split beyond a certain speed in traffic.

Opinions?

Is it a situational awareness deal? Street strategies? Do you think those really things that a racer's awareness and ability won't make up for?

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I've seen a few people post about how they believe track skills don't apply to street situations. If you're of this opinion, can you elaborate?

My stance: The control that a racer develops on the track is directly applicable to the street. Due to their experience at speed, racers will able to stop harder and turn faster than their street counterparts, giving them more options when situations arise.

Experienced racers also have a better feel for traction under different conditions, as well as the ability to recover from situations where traction is lost.

There's a reason racers are often slower than experienced street riders on public roads. They take into account the possibility of surface conditions around blind corners. They know that they're pretty much helpless if they split beyond a certain speed in traffic.

Opinions?

Is it a situational awareness deal? Street strategies? Do you think those really things that a racer's awareness and ability won't make up for?

+1.

[christofu]

Good post Mike!

My personal opinion is that 'track skills' are those skills that are directly related to how well you control (and are in control of) the motorcycle.

'Street skills' is the experience and judgement required to successfully nagivate the minefield of 'challenges' that street riders face every day.

Having 'track skills' gives you more options in almost all circumstances. Having 'street skills' means you know which option to choose.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by MrCrash907

My stance: The control that a racer develops on the track is directly applicable to the street. Due to their experience at speed, racers will able to stop harder and turn faster than their street counterparts, giving them more options when situations arise.

Experienced racers etc etc etc

This is great when you are talking about racing, which you are above.

Not everyone who rides wants to become a racer. Not every racer rides on the street.

For Joe Burner the street rider, the experience at the track, can be good and bad.

Some folks after a trackday, find themselves going slower on the street. There is also a percentage that the opposite happens too.

It all depends on the rider.

There are a few folks I've seen after a trackday that decided to use the whole road, not just their side. Yes, there is a race line and a street line... the street line has the DY.

Track skills may translate in to better handling on the street especially under some conditions... like how far to lean the bike if you blow a turn... why not learn how not to blow the turn in the first place?

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by christofu
Having 'track skills' gives you more options in almost all circumstances. Having 'street skills' means you know which option to choose.

Completely agree :thumbup

[ChuckBecker]

I don't have any track skills so I can't speak from personal knowledge. But I find it hard to believe that track experience wouldn't help with motorcycle control (physical skills and mental preparation) at the edge of the envelope. I've ridden with guys who have track time and in good conditions, they are smooth and fast and confident. I haven't ridden with any track guys in challenging conditions (snow and ice, mudslides and washouts, dirt and gravel roads, in the dark in the rain, etc) so I can't really say.

[ryanb]

street riding is to track riding:

financed, clean, slow, starbux

salvaged, crashed, slow, ibuprofen

[Teddy]

I agree with you 100% Mike..... I found that while my skills, feel, confidence and control all grew with leaps and bounds once I was introduced to the track (and was lucky enough to go to the track 5-10 times a year when I used to host events), that my street pace slowed consierably. I guess I just made the decision that I now knew where I could "feel" my personal limits out without taking unnecessary risks.

I kind of like it that way....people can underestimate my abilities while we are riding on the street, and then when I see them at the track they can feel my wrath!! hehehe:teeth, just kidding, I am not really that quick on the track either:blush


Now......I need to get my ZX10 on the track!!

[DataDan]

I half agree. I've never raced, but I have attended 20 or so track schools over the past 15 years. I love the track experience both for what it teaches me and for sheer fun, but I think the transfer of skills to the street is limited. Not non-existent, but limited. Here are some of my ideas about what it can and can't do for street riding.

What track experience can do for your street riding:
Give you confidence to corner at high lean angle near the limit of grip. You’ll be less likely to panic if a turn tightens up unexpectedly and more lean angle is required. You know what the motorcycle is capable of, so you just crank it over further.

Develop effective steering skill. The countersteering instinct is strongly developed on the track, so when you need to swerve to avoid an obstacle on the street, the reaction will be natural.

Develop braking skill. When braking becomes necessary to avoid an obstacle, you must be able to get the bike to maximum deceleration quickly—but not so quickly that you risk front wheel lockup. The track helps to develop that fine edge.

Train you to focus in an emergency. All track riders experience panic occasionally. But in the controlled environment you learn to maintain visual focus on where you want to go—not where the hazard is. And that instinct works equally well on the street.What track experience cannot do for your street riding:
Develop judgment to stay out of trouble. Much of what the track develops is bike-handling skill—maximum turning and stopping. But if a street rider finds himself taking emergency action to avoid crashing more often than very rarely, he doesn’t yet Get It. The track adds nothing to a rider’s ability to make decisions about where to be and how fast to be going to stay out of trouble on the street.

Teach you to scan the big picture. On the track you develop reference points and consistently shift visual focus to planned, successive points as you move around the track. On the street, your visual field is always shifting to an unfamiliar scene. For example, as you round a bend at the track, you might be looking for a certain mark at the outside edge of the track that’s your exit aim point. But on the street, you may have no idea what’s around the bend. Not only are you searching for an exit aim point, you’re also looking for oncoming traffic, surface hazards, and points of vulnerability such as driveways or cross roads. In traffic, of course, the problem is much worse and even less related to track riding.

Train you to play defense. On the track, you play offense. It’s you against the track, and you’re calling the shots. You choose a line that gets you around as fast as possible subject only to the static restriction of the circuit’s shape and, occasionally, other riders. But the vast majority of your time riding on the street is spent on defense. The direction the roadway goes is mostly predictable, but traffic and other conditions constantly threaten, and you must react to them—it’s their home turf, not yours.

Keep you humble. After a few track days, new skills make some riders overconfident on the street. The idea that bike-handling abilities developed at the track make you a safe street rider is not just wrong but dangerous. Hazards materialize on the street faster than anyone can react to them. If you’re traveling at 40mph and a car pulls out of a driveway 50ft in front of you, braking and swerving can’t save you. The solution is to prevent the problem from occurring in the first place. Speed and position can help you to be seen, and keen observation will reveal the potential problem before it’s right in your face.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
This is great when you are talking about racing, which you are above.

Say a car suddenly pulls out of a driveway, partially hidden from view by a car that is parallel parked. My argument is that track / racing experience will help riders in that kind of situation, giving them more options. They can brake harder, turn faster, and a smaller chance of target fixating than a street rider.

What does that have to do with racing?

Some folks after a trackday, find themselves going slower on the street. There is also a percentage that the opposite happens too.

It all depends on the rider.

And when the opposite happens, there's a good chance the rider wil one of the ugliest crashes they'll ever have. This was the case for a few people I knew in the mid / late 90s, before tracktime was as available as it is now.

Most of those people no longer ride on the street. Some of them no longer ride.

Track skills may translate in to better handling on the street especially under some conditions... like how far to lean the bike if you blow a turn... why not learn how not to blow the turn in the first place?

Racers generally take lines on backroad / street rides that are safer than those of aggressive street riders. The racer's line often requires less lean angle, and results in less time spent at full lean.

If you believe the racer is at a disadvantage there, the racers you've followed probably don't have a whole lot of experience.

[Feanor]

I think track vs street shakes out like this:

I think it's a situation where it boils down to consistency, and hammering down a pattern of such , versus dealing with inconsistencies, and developing a mindset to react to surprises.

When you're on the track you curse if you exit a turn knowing you missed your apex by 12 inches... On the street, you breathe a sigh of relief because you missed hitting that 12in pothole right in the middle of the turn.

I would think that track practice allows you "slow down" the world around you while you ride, giving you more effectiveness in evaluating and reacting because at the greater speeds involved, one must learn to take in more data at a faster rate... or else crash.

Kind of like driving your car on the freeway in excess of say, 120mph for a few seconds then slowing down to 65mph and feeling like you could open the door, jump out and start running because it feels so slow.

Alot of the "anxiousness" that accompanies speed and surprise and leads to tragic hesitation probably comes from too much information too quickly... it doesn't really teach you to think faster than others per se, but only to process more information in the same amount of time, to be cogniscent of more in the blink of an eye, like that excercise where they flash a picture in front of your eyes and then you have to describe everything you saw.

Spending alot of time on the track is probably like getting a significant CPU upgrade :) because your mind becomes accustomed to this "way" of thinking. Lapping on a track at high speed takes alot of physical endurance that must be trained, the mind must be trained in the same way, and the core of that mental training transfer directly to the street. The car that swings suddenly into your lane not completely unlike the rider that just out-braked you and dove down suddenly inside your turn to try and pass you, causing you to instantly evaluate your new line to keep from running off the track.

But what do I know, my first trackday is still in the future, but heck, the line of thinking seems to be logical :)

Feanor

[paroxysm]

Originally posted by christofu
Good post Mike!

My personal opinion is that 'track skills' are those skills that are directly related to how well you control (and are in control of) the motorcycle.

'Street skills' is the experience and judgement required to successfully nagivate the minefield of 'challenges' that street riders face every day.

Having 'track skills' gives you more options in almost all circumstances. Having 'street skills' means you know which option to choose.

bravo...

[doubleottcrash]

Street VS Track?

Two totally seperate things. I believe that riders are out there that do posess both skills but only the basics of one apply to the other.
On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.On the street in traffic your rarely going to get the chance to drag knee at 155 unless your out on some road w/ not many cars around that might as well be a track.
You train your eyes and ears to listen and look for completely different shit.

[ontherearwheel]

The only thing racing taught me about street riding was how to go faster on the street.

But the thing is I rode a long time on the street before I raced. What I learned on the street I used when I got to the track. I already knew how to late brake, look through a turn, how to panic stop, how to change direction quickly and so on. I learned these skill by being honest about my skills, knowing what skill I'm weak in and then finding the places to practice them. So on the track, my skill level just went up, I didn't really learn anything new. Oh I did learn one thing......there are racers on the track that care as little about the people around them as the people on the street do. There are assholes everywhere.

Yes good street riding takes practice. And its the kinda of practice that can not be fully done on a race track.

Doing a full on panic stop with the rear locked up cannot be practiced fully on a race track, nor over and over again until you can do it as a reaction not something needed to be thinked about.

I have never had to turn my race bike as quick as I have on the street. I learned that skill from practicing on the street.

The race track did not teach me how to read a street or hill road. What the best lane position is when in traffic or to watch my mirrors. Riding on the street did, wanting to be a better street rider did.

Its up to each person to choose their path to become a better street rider. Implying that one can only learn how to brake hard, see through a corner or turn a bike fast is on a race track is very narrow minded.

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
Street VS Track?

Two totally seperate things. I believe that riders are out there that do posess both skills but only the basics of one apply to the other.
On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.On the street in traffic your rarely going to get the chance to drag knee at 155 unless your out on some road w/ not many cars around that might as well be a track.
You train your eyes and ears to listen and look for completely different shit.

+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.

There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by Kensaku
+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.

There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...

I kind of retract this statement. What track riding has taught me is to give myself a large margin of error to avoid "bad luck" situations. Whenever I have a mishap, big or small, I try to evaluate my riding before pointing fingers at forces of nature.

[Feanor]

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
Street VS Track?

You train your eyes and ears to listen and look for completely different shit.

I think the tie is closer than that... It's not that you train your eyes and ears to see and listen for different "shit" I think you train your mind and reflexes to react to "shit" in general.

I would argue that the single biggest factor aside from inappropriate speed, leading to crashes on motorcycles is not doing "something" the instant things start to go south.

In a word... hesitation, or its direct counterpart, "overreaction" I think that the track provides a consistent "workout" area where reaction time is lessened, and overreaction is turned into subtlety at the controls because the track is an environment where you can "isolate" themental practice, like some weird nautilus machine for your mind.

You hit a corner over and over and over again, so that you understand what subtle speed changes, steering inputs lean angles etc etc, do to your path of travel and where you end up on the track... On the street, so much "stuff" is going on that it becomes a morass of data so that when you exit the turn you think "Ok, I made it, what the hell just happened?"

Feanor

[doubleottcrash]

Good shit,

I know one person (no Name) that is always asking me when I will hit the track with? I tell him probably never. His response has been somewhere along the lines of -what, don't think you could handle it?
Yah thats it.
And when asked when will i see him on the street he replys.
I will meet you at skaggs. When I ask? Sometime soon he say's I'll load up my bike and see you there.

Dumbass.

[Feanor]

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
Good shit,

I know one person (no Name) that is always asking me when I will hit the track with? I tell him probably never. His response has been somewhere along the lines of -what, don't think you could handle it?
Yah thats it.
And when asked when will i see him on the street he replys.
I will meet you at skaggs. When I ask? Sometime soon he say's I'll load up my bike and see you there.

Dumbass.

:)

As much skill is shared, there is also the proprietary information that is most useful to one discipline or the other... It's probably up to the individual in question how they choose to apply it to either and what parts of it they choose to ignore :)

I still remember that man in the issue of BIKE magazine who rides fast on the street and has been doing so for 52 years, and has never crashed, not even once.

I'll bet HE has quite a bit proprietary information in his head about street riding (and this is in England, where riding a motorcycle in that weather means you're hardcore to begin with :) )

If you enleashed that gentleman on the track, perhaps he would be clueless as to how to proceed, but then again, he doesn't need to know anything about it either...

My goal is to gather every bit of information I can to stay upright... Wether that comes from the street or track I don't really care, I'll listen eagerly!

Feanor

[doubleottcrash]

I agree. To each's own.
I have crashed many times and have learned some alot of what not to do's from ebery one. Even though they are not always you falt. Most can still be avoided.

OUT

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/162/971/2446159-old_school.jpg

[doubleottcrash]

Sorry about the spelling.
In a hurry.

[Climber]

I think that track time in most cases has a positive impact in a riders safety on the street and will generally help to develop skills and awareness that will go a long way towards ensuring that they will come home every day on two wheels.

But, there are also skills developed on the street that aren't learned on the track and have to do with the factors that don't exist on the track. It's these skills that when combined with the skills developed on the track will make riders complete and safe street riders.

[christofu]

Originally posted by Kensaku
+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.


Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.

If you go to the track with the goal of just goin' as fuckin' fast as you can the whole time, with no desire to learn anything except how big your dick is (isn't) then yes, you've been to the track, but no, you haven't picked up any 'track skills'. In fact, you probably should just kick your bike over in your driveway now rather than wasting your own time and the time of the organizer.

[Traq]

Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

[christofu]

Originally posted by Traq
Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

And yet when the helicopter drops me off at the front line, I'm pretty sure I'd like to have some idea how to use my weapon.

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by christofu
Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.


No, I agree with you but I'm saying there are many, many variables found on the street that go beyond bike control and the track just doesn't prepare you for that kind of situation. For example, a drunk driver coming up driving 100mph down the highway and rear-ending you before you have time to react. Sure, skills learned on the track give you a better sense of how to manuveur a bike more competently to avoid such a collision, but sometimes there's nothing you can do...

(see my post after the post you quoted).

[windex]

My .02 cents.

All riding make the rider better in those 'Oh shit' moments. A few quick things.

Track- Controlled environment to learn the limits of your bike and what they feel like.

Street- Being able to read traffic and the road(sign of a driveway or chance of dirt from a hillside).

Dirt- How to slide a bike when it loses traction and how to crash with little injury.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Feanor
Spending alot of time on the track is probably like getting a significant CPU upgrade :)

Excellent analogy!

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.

I'm not sure what you're insinuating by this. This is just common sense for any rider, street or track.

Originally posted by Kensaku
There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...

Is he an expert AFM racer? Not that it means a whole lot, as it just signifies that he remained upright for six weekends.


What track riding has taught me is to give myself a large margin of error to avoid "bad luck" situations. Whenever I have a mishap, big or small, I try to evaluate my riding before pointing fingers at forces of nature.

Likewise. This is exactly why some fast street riders will lose some racers at an "A" street pace on public roads. Most of the more experienced racers I know don't want to give up that margin.

[i]Originally posted by Traq
Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it. Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.

[Wrong Way]

I have almost exclusively ridden on the street. Having only gone to a few track days, I am very busy with the basics when I do go. It seems odd to spend many years riding and then something as simple as changing the environment, from street to the track, would cause one to take steps back just to participate. Well, there were things I was doing wrong.

Hopefully you keep learning, but what the track did for me was a huge benefit to my skills. It forces you to participate in a focused way. After all the years I spent riding on the street, I finally learned some skills that are essential to riding anywhere. I learned these skills by going to the track.

And thanks to all that have helped me when I was out there.

[Traq]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it.
Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.


Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.
Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc. Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street. However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda. :p

[NoGall]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
I have almost exclusively ridden on the street. Having only gone to a few track days, I am very busy with the basics when I do go. It seems odd to spend many years riding and then something as simple as changing the environment, from street to the track, would cause one to take steps back just to participate. Well, there were things I was doing wrong.

Hopefully you keep learning, but what the track did for me was a huge benefit to my skills. It forces you to participate in a focused way. After all the years I spent riding on the street, I finally learned some skills that are essential to riding anywhere. I learned these skills by going to the track.

And thanks to all that have helped me when I was out there.

+1

This is coming from an ex- anti- "monkies going around a circle".

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Traq
Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.



Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc. Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street. However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda. :p

What street skills can't be learned at the track? I'm curious because the end result you're looking for is confidence in yourself, your bike and your tires. In a controlled enviornment at the track you approach these results at a much faster pace and generally are safer doing it. During your time at the track you'll likely encounter, oil, dirt and other debris on the track. Same as getting cut off, running wide, traction slip. All of which are still in a safer, more controlled enviornment.

An expert track rider has much better control and thus they're much better prepared in a quick reaction incident than someone who has not truly explored their or the bikes limits. There's plenty of such big bumps on the track and the procedure is still the same. What you're describing is your familiarity with travel routes due to repition. One a general basis, the track rider is much better prepared.

[Matt.Lai]

Clubracing has improved my ability to manage panic while on the street. Feanor hit upon this earlier and it is true for me. Racing is chock full of panic - reacting to a fucked up situation occurs more often during a race than it does on the street. My "panic muscle," therefore, is well tuned and able to react when presented with an unexpected obstacle while street riding.

The second and more important effect is that I lose my sense of urgency on the street if I am racing regularly. I find that the sensation of riding on the street cannot match the g-forces experienced at the track, so I just slow down and enjoy the ride. Conversely, if I do not go racing for a certain period of time, I 'jones' for sensation and start to ride a bit fast for conditions on the street. Racing is, therefore, making my overall motorcycle experience measurably safer. Go figure!

YMMV.

-Matt

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
Is he an expert AFM racer? Not that it means a whole lot, as it just signifies that he remained upright for six weekends.


Yes, and a cocky one at that. I suppose you're right, but the irony is too much for me to handle, especially when I see the things he says...PM me if you want to know more. :laughing

[Traq]

Originally posted by Robert R1
What street skills can't be learned at the track?
The obvious first thing would be dealing with traffic composed of all kinds of different vehicles that are going every which way at various speeds. When's the last time someone was killed at the track because of an ovloV turning left into a minimart? Never? Yea.

[Robert R1]

rydah1: hehehe i want to paint out a scenario

rydah1: where you and i, "former" racers, are riding on the street

rydah1: "hey, great race last weekend robert. you did really well - did you finish top 10?"

rydah1: "yeah man . and i set my best time ever, breaking into the 1:59s at Thunderh OH MY GOD WHAT IS THAT?!?!?! THAT BLACK STUFF ON THE ROAD OH MY GOD"

rydah1: "ROBERT I DON'T KNOW I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE HOLY SHIT WHAT SHOULD WE DO OH FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK IF ONLY I RODE ON THE STREEEET OH SHIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTT"

rydah1: *as we sail off of grizzly peak at the sight of a slight oil spill)

robertr1: hahahaahahahaahahah come on! let me copy/paste this convo into a post

[ryanb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Traq
Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.

Agreed. Cold tires suck everywhere!

Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc.

First of all, the racetrack is not always a pristine environment, far from it. There are damp patches in the morning, dirt from the car club that was there the day before, fresh pavement patches that are 1" lower than the surrounding tarmac, blown bike oiling the track, bumps in a fast corner, the list goes on and on.

The primary difference is predictability....ie if you saw dirt in T1 it's most likely going to be there the next 10 laps you take. The predictability aspect of track riding is what lets you push past those sight-line limits that keep things sedated on the street.


Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.

I would agree that *some* aspects of situational awareness when street riding cannot be taught on a racetrack. Traffic behavior, watching for telltale signs that someone will turn left in front of you, all that stuff. It turns you into a student of human behavior (read: jackasses behind steering wheels) more than anything else ;)

However, I'd say most of the skills that a rider can directly influence (namely, the ones that apply to their own riding) can come from street riding, but to truly push things and find the edge of the envelope on the street is stupid. A racetrack is the only place to properly learn to ride a modern sportbike. Honestly, I think the people that can control a bike best are veteran dirt bike riders. Nothing else teaches you control of 2 wheels like a dirtbike. Them guys are crazy.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street.

I strongly disagree. To even try to approach the limits of your machine, let alone your personal riding skills limits, on the street, is ludicrous. It's a one-way trip to the emergency room. Please tell me you dont really think Joe Rider can safely reach the limits of his shiny new gsx-r1000 on some twisty backroad.


However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda. :p

The only major aspects of street riding that you cant learn on a track is situation awareness in traffic and maybe local knowledge of the road you're riding on (hidden driveways, etc). Any riding skill that can be learned on the street, can be learned and honed to a far greater degree on a racetrack.

-Ryan

[christofu]

Originally posted by Kensaku
Yes, and a cocky one at that. I suppose you're right, but the irony is too much for me to handle, especially when I see the things he says...PM me if you want to know more. :laughing

Ooh! Is it me? Is it? Huh? Huh? Is it?

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by christofu
Ooh! Is it me? Is it? Huh? Huh? Is it?

:shhh

You are too connected in this matter. Go away!

[canyonrat]

I can't stomach to read this.

We had a week long thread about this subject back in Nov. 2005. It got very heated but well mannered. Read it if you like, it takes a couple of hours...

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144882

[Eric in Davis]

Reading all the replies I have the following observations:

1) People who have not been on the track much say that any track skills can also be learned on the street, and that track skills don't apply to street scenarios

2) People who have been on the track a lot say the opposite.

How can someone who doesn't have extensive track experience comment on whether or not those skills help on the street :confused That would be like me trying to argue that supermotard experience (which I have none of) doesn't improve your road-racing.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by canyonrat
I can't stomach to read this.

We had a week long thread about this subject back in Nov. 2005. It got very heated but well mannered. Read it if you like, it takes a couple of hours...

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144882

Can you summarize your view / opinion for me?

[Alexey]

Not trying to be a know-it-all, but I'd like to offer my 2 cents because I've done different kinds of street riding as well as different kinds of track riding.

I started out on 2 wheels as a bicyclist in NYC. I rode all over town, from horse trails in parks to zigzagging my way through cab traffic in Manhattan. That taught me, among other things, how to ride in very aggressive city traffic. It was 85% situational awareness and 15% bicycle control.

I then got my first motorcycle: a Seca II. City riding became a much smaller headache. I was able to apply everything I knew from cycling to the motorcycle with the exception of dealing with a heavier machine. But at the same time I had acceleration on tap and the whole thing just felt way easier.

My glaring weakness was hard braking in the dry -- I was still trying to use both brakes and getting myself sidways like I always did on the bicycle. Needless to say, that was a bad idea at higher speeds. I did however manage to save a few unintentional slides, including front wheel lock-ups that I don't think I would have been able to save without the quick reactions and constant state of high alert learned from ever-changing city traffic.

I then moved on to my first sportbike: an F3. Contrary to what I thought might happen, I felt way more comfortable on it in all aspects of riding. And of course, I immediately started doing squiddly things on the street, including going into the hills to "practice".

Mercifully, someone told me to go and check out a trackday. My first exposure to the track was cornerworking. And I gotta tell ya -- I learned a ton. Just from watching bikes go by, a number of things became apparent:

I was not the fastest rider in the world
smoothness leads to speed
speed and safety can be attained from a similar set of skills


I signed up and did my first trackday. Despite highsiding at the end of the day on cold tires, I learned more about bike control than I did my entire squiddly riding career up to that point. The biggest things I tapped into was how to use my eyes and how to use my body. It was like I had been living in a small cramped room for years and suddenly someone opened a door to the outside -- the biggest thing I learned was how little I actually knew.

I then took up some Keith Code books and hit more trackdays, trying to apply everything I digested from the books. It was definitely addictive -- every time I was out-there, I came away with huge improvements. And the best part was that the better I did, the slower it felt. I became calm and calculating while riding as opposed to "pushing" and gritting my teeth.

I decided it was high time I tried to compete. By that point I had converted the F3 to 100% track and only rode street on occasion on borrowed bikes. When I did that, I was both more freaked out by all the unpredictable crap going on around me, and at the same time more collected mentally. I had 2 close calls caused by cars pulling into my path that I got out of through extra-quick countersteering. I knew that without my still limited track experience, I would have tried brakes and most likely gotten seriously hurt or worse in both situations. The cool thing was that in both cases I did the right thing without thinking. Still, those experiences made me even more hesitant to ride street.

A few years of racing in sunny CA followed that with occasional dabbling in street riding. I kind of enjoyed riding through SF, mostly because it was so different from the track and reminded me of "the good old days". Jumping a sportbike through intersections going up the SF hills was definitely the dog's bollocks as they say. Thinking back, I should have probably gotten myself a motard.

After some more on-and-off racing and even more sparse street riding, I ended up on the east coast in the burbs. I fixed up a junky EX500 for the street and got an F4i for racing. Riding the EX on local roads was the first time I truly enjoyed competent street riding with the ego as well as the traffic dangers mostly in check. I was definitely a lot more in control of how much I wanted to push the envelope at any given moment, something I was blissfully unaware of when I was trying to be a hero on the F3 in the hills. I do admit that the point of the racer's overconfidence holds true. I never bothered to get new tires of the EX, which had a nice square bald piece of rubber you'd be hard pressed to call a tire on the back. In the rain, things were definitely dicey and I was basically unnecessarily taking chances. I'm not doing that anymore.

I had one interesting experience on that bike that kinda took me full circle. Last year I rode it down to NYC and hit Manhattan traffic on the highway and in the streets at the peak of afternoon rush hour. My crazy-close street riding skills were a bit rusty at that point. But I dug deep and remembered most of it getting there in one piece and kind of having fun by then.

So after all the rambling, what's the point? I think part of the confusion about track and street skills overlap is that it's all about what any one individual is lacking. Undoubtedly it's possible to be a pro in any niche environment and be a poor rider in others (the late great Joey Dunlop never achieved greatness as a closed circuit racer). And undoubtedly there are ways to leverage what you know as you adapt to new situations. When I moved to CA, even going from east coast tracks to west coast tracks was a bit of a shock to the system. But I'd say the more one knows, the better one is prepared for whatever new challenges await, in riding and in life in general. I think the most important thing is to understand your own limitations and learn how to learn. Remember, we're all still learning to ride!

['03R6Rider]

ontherearwheel. I have never done an track day. But I've wanted to for a while now. I must say that I just learned a lot just reading your thread. Like a lot of other people, I thought that the track would make me a much better rider. And I don't think that it would hurt. But after reading your thread I have a whole new perspective on the subject.

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by '03R6Rider
ontherearwheel. I have never done an track day. But I've wanted to for a while now. I must say that I just learned a lot just reading your thread. Like a lot of other people, I thought that the track would make me a much better rider. And I don't think that it would hurt. But after reading your thread I have a whole new perspective on the subject.

We educate minds and hearts to change the world.

http://www.usfca.edu/

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by Eric in Davis
Reading all the replies I have the following observations:

1) People who have not been on the track much say that any track skills can also be learned on the street, and that track skills don't apply to street scenarios

2) People who have been on the track a lot say the opposite.

How can someone who doesn't have extensive track experience comment on whether or not those skills help on the street :confused That would be like me trying to argue that supermotard experience (which I have none of) doesn't improve your road-racing.

My point is: will the track make the average street rider better/safer?

It REALLY depends on the rider. An asshat is an asshat. There are people out there who have done tons of trackdays and they are NOT learning anything from it (as in getting faster and/or learning bike handling skills). There are some folks that are not teachable, like Mola Ram. :laughing

Wanna make yourself a better rider; learn a lil dirt, learn a lil track, learn a lil supermoto, and remember what your first ride was on two wheels- the bicycle.

Am I saying, "Don't go to the track"? Hell NO! Get out there, have fun and learn :thumbup Does it make you a better rider? It depends on YOU the rider.

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
My point is: will the track make the average street rider better/safer?

It REALLY depends on the rider. An asshat is an asshat. There are people out there who have done tons of trackdays and they are NOT learning anything from it (as in getting faster and/or learning bike handling skills). There are some folks that are not teachable, like Mola Ram. :laughing

Wanna make yourself a better rider; learn a lil dirt, learn a lil track, learn a lil supermoto, and remember what your first ride was on two wheels- the bicycle.

Am I saying, "Don't go to the track"? Hell NO! Get out there, have fun and learn :thumbup Does it make you a better rider? It depends on YOU the rider.

+1

I think that the track will make any rider better at controlling their machine.

I also think the track will make said asshat rider think s/he's better...

[scalvert]

Matt Lai's points line up well with mine. Certainly after being on track I feel much less motivated to ride aggressively since I left all the go fast on the track. Also, my time on track has very finely honed my ability to make accurate and quick decisions in the middle of "oh shit" moments.

The nature of track riding is such that you're likely to have a much higher ratio of "oh shit" to "splat" occurances than you do on the street. That leads to fear being a much more frequent (if still unwanted) passenger on my track bike than my street bike. "Oh shit" moments correspond closely to moments when a riding situation demands skills that you are not confident in. Hundreds of hours pushing back my limits have made me much more familiar with the various flavors of unconfident "oh shit" moments. It turns out that most of the time fear sets in well before your skills are actually overtaxed (at least for me). Knowing this has greatly increased my motivation and ability to reach deep within my experience and courage and dig out responses that are nominally beyond my abilities.

This fear and limitation management experience was earned with a much much reduced cost of risk than one would endure to learn the same skills on the street. My personal belief is that riding well is 95% about focus and emotional control. Considering how much my focus and emotion control skills have developed on the track I have to conclude that the track experience is a huge asset on the road.

Of course there are lessons from the road that are not taught on the racetrack. In my mind they boil down to 1) anticipation of cagers, 2) keeping focus in extreme weather, 3) cop management. Just like street riding didn't teach me how to mount a rear wheel in 5 minutes, there is application specific knowledge in every area of riding. Most of the time bikes are bikes and riding is riding. Being good in one area brings you up in every other.

[Holeshot]

I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.

Ok, now, as Christofu said, plenty of skills can be learned on the street that can be learned on the track, albeit with much less of a safety margin. It's why we keep reading about people stuffing bikes under mini vans on highway 9 and throwing out one of those shitty little pixelated roses in memory. But overall, there's just gonna be alot of holes in a street education for the most part. I can't agree that avoiding traffic is a real skill exclusive to street riders. I can agree that knowing how to best traverse slick or muddy surfaces is something of a skill, but best learned on the dirt as well.

ontherearwheel, It seems you either knew everything you needed for your class racing or didn't aspire to do better. I can't imagine not learning anything racing.

This bullshit of thinking certain street situations allow someone to learn a highly specialized skill (like turning sharpley) is just smoke and mirrors. In reality, all of us with sport bikes are trying to go faster with more control. The almighty stopwatch seems to show the reality behind that goal. Form be damned, isn't that what sport bikers are trying to achieve or is there another measure of "skills" like backing into a parking spot, or something?

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by Holeshot
a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.

:thumbup

[Feanor]

Mad skillz is mad skillz, Street or Track, why fret? They are skillz, phear them...

Feanor

[joespeedfast]

Riding skillz are riding skills. Public road management and race-track accuracy/usage are differaent things.

[canyonrat]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
Can you summarize your view / opinion for me?

Street and track skill vary slightly, basically because they are different environments. Street riders are faster than track riders on the street, and track riders are faster than street riders on the track.

Cornering lines on the street vary based upon the corner. For example, a blind corner with a hidden gravel driveway could command a tight entry point with a wide middle while slowing. This would be to avoid possible unseen gravel on the inside of the corner. This would not be a good track line.

Also, spending time looking off the road for animals does not come ino play at the track.

There's also greater memorization of the longer roads and surfaces than track riders need to get involved with.

Mark

[Alexey]

Originally posted by Holeshot
I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.
I disagree. Certain street-specific things you mentioned are skills. Only they're usually learned from experience because at this time there's no controlled environment to hone them in. The best such environment I could think of would be a computer similulator that creates random unexpected situations in virtual traffic one has to respond to. The way it would be controlled is via management of denseness of traffic and the difficulty of the unexpected.

I once read a theory on what intuition was. It offered that intuition is nothing more than an incredibly complex set of experiential subconscious reflexes that work behind the scenes and contribute to our conscious thinking process. An example was given of a security guard checking ID's. There are and will continue to be many many cases of guards looking at what appears to be a perfectly valid document and yet get that weird feeling that something's not right. If they listen to that inner voice, they often discover that indeed there was a fake ID that was all but impossible to catch with a naked eye. So they chalk it up to intuition. But in reality, they did actually register a few minute signs that didn't align well with what they've seen before countless times.

It boils down to 2 sets of skill division: conscious vs subconscious and learned in controlled environments vs experiential. At the end of the day, it's better to have your skills consciously understood, but operating on a subconscious level and it makes no difference if you acquired them through experience or in a "lab". However, it's obvious of course that most skills are better learned in some kind of a lab than through what is essentially natural selection of us as a 2-wheeled species.

[Climber]

Originally posted by Holeshot
I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.
I have to disagree with you on this.

Developing the skill to read the traffic is fully as much of a skill as handling the bike. I don't understand how you can just say that it's 'experience'. :wtf

For some of us, many hours of hard work and conscious thought has gone into developing the skills to read traffic as an organism and to develop the skills to recognize and categorize potential threats and to first consciously then sub-consciously adjust our riding line through positions of least vulnerability throughout our entire ride.

[budbandit]

HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider. In a race across London, or hell, even downtown SF, between even a superlative track rider and a mediocre courier, my money would be on the courier. Intense urban work is vastly different from track work and uses different skills and requires different ways of thinking. FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.

[Enchanter]

Learning HOW (physical) to operate the controls is just as much a skill as knowing WHEN (mental) to operate them. Street or Track, it makes no difference.

Some of you track focused peeps are trying to say that riding in traffic isn't a skill? Huh? Mental processing of the situation around you isn't a skill on the street? What? Is mental processing only a skill on the track? People that use their heads more than their hands doing something are less skilled? Give me a break. Is Stephan Hawking less skilled or more skilled than you? I'd guess that he is less skilled in one area but more skilled in another.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by budbandit
HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider. I think thats the point of the thread Jason. Overall I think what everyone is trying to say if you remove the labels is that they are complimentary skills. I've ridden with both Mike and Berto both of them are extraordinary riders (keeping in mind I rode with them on the street and learned a ton from them) in their own right. I'm going to go ahead and assume the same from you.

In short, we all love our sport. We all work hard and are passionate in improving devoloping and excelling. Mike is trying to show the complimentary nature of track riding to street riding. I don't think anyone is attempting to say "I'm better than you", albeit I've come across amateur racers who think that.

Somebody once said something on here that was a wonderful quote IMO "People go to the track to excell".

Some of you folks are forgetting the purpose of this thread. Or y'all just want to argue. Even the typical n00b typically has done extensive research (in their mind) on their machine and our beloved sport.

Lets throw the us vs. them mentality away and lets get back to constructive information. The argument shouldn't be over street and track especially amongst the veterans. The "discussion" (which this was intended to be) should be about the complimentary nature of the two and how to become a well balanced, or "skilled" (this term is starting to annoy me as well) rider.

I hate hearing about this barrier of street and track. I know for a fact Berto, Mike, Ken, Mario and everyone else here is attempting to provide an outlet for discussion. Albeit I was unimpressed by Canyon "JEDI"'s toss to an old thread which IMO did not cover the subject well enough for the layman.

Edit: I have never personally ridden with CanyonRat, but his postings leads in regards to some supernatural skill and comic book fantasy in regards to being a "CanyonDancer". In truth, I myself am a canyon rider so is Mike, so is Berto. But I can say this much as biased as I can be towards a canyon by no means do I think it's the "END ALL" to riding. If I offended you canyon rat my apologies. I just can't grasp what concept you're trying to get across but I do think you are broadening the social Gap and perpetuating this stupid "Us Vs Them" mentality.


~ Jason

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by budbandit
HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider. In a race across London, or hell, even downtown SF, between even a superlative track rider and a mediocre courier, my money would be on the courier. Intense urban work is vastly different from track work and uses different skills and requires different ways of thinking. FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The street is chaos. The track offers a controlled environment, allowing focus on speed and skill. The amount of mental energy you spend looking for the idiot cage drivers on the streets can be utilized to better focus on corner entry/exit speed on the track.

In a race across London, both riders could be easily taken out by a cellphone talking soccermom.

[ontherearwheel]

Like I wrote, I didn't learn anything new. The track just let me expand on the skill set I had already learned riding on the street.

Yes, riding in traffic on the street, lane splitting helped me when I was in a pack on the track, why cause I already had alot of experince in close quarters in traffic, so it didn't brother lie it would those that had less experince in close quarters.

Oh I did, say I learned one thing........there are assholes on the street and on the track.

Based on your snipe at me, it appears if you ain't at the front you don't know shit.........an attitude that runs through the AFM.

[budbandit]

Yes, I am comparing apples with oranges - different skillsets, abilities and capabilities. Unless I am misreading Holeshot entirely, he is saying in effect that there is one set of skills applicable to riding motorcycles and that set is best honed and developed on the road racing track. While I am certain that there are some awesomely skilled guys who have mastered riding on the knife edge that stands between blisteringly fast on a predictable and consistant track and disasterous excursion beyond the edge of the envelope, I am equally certain that this is but one aspect of riding. One of the great things about all these afm guys and roadracers and track whores is their great confidence in themselves. In a pussified America it is refreshing to come across such certainty and strong belief. However, one of the great shortcomings of many of these guys is their great confidence and from some perspectives arrogance and what seems to be a somewhat limited perspective. Bonneville top speed runs, drag races, urban couriers, trials riders, motocrossers and those stunnahs doing circle wheelies all have very little to do with going around a roadrace circuit but all have in their own area awesome skills.

As amusing as all the AFM dickwaving may be, and I will admit I am a sucker for colorful characters, the be all, end all, ultimate measure of goodness and value for all riders is not necessarily how fast you get around the same track regardless of how certain that Holeshot is about this point. Sure, going fast is fun but when I ride my goal is to have fun, not necessarily to go faster. A racer focused on little more than shaving fractions of seconds off laptimes will have a different perspective, and there are some who will argue that he may have missed the point, mistaking second shaving for the true goal, which for most recreational riders, is having a good time.


Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
You're comparing apples and oranges. The street is chaos. The track offers a controlled environment, allowing focus on speed and skill. The amount of mental energy you spend looking for the idiot cage drivers on the streets can be utilized to better focus on corner entry/exit speed on the track.

In a race across London, both riders could be easily taken out by a cellphone talking soccermom.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by budbandit
FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.

I think this has less to do with skill and more to do with a conditioned numbness to potential threats in a very dangerous environment.

[VillageIdiot]

Jason

No offense bro But I see a hell of a lot more dick waving, and close minded opinions from you than I do from Berto.

Knowing in fact that you're providing a service to the community and you're doing great things for people :thumbup, helps me to overlook you overt Squid Rhetoric. Which is probably intentional with the mind set if you save ONE it was worth it.

But taking into consideration the help other people have brought to the sport at all levels and appreciating their skill is important. I do agree.

It's my opinion that you pick on Berto in almost every thread to flex your mental muscle persay. Is it so impossible to admit or rather recognize his contributions as well?

Or are we going to have the Holeshot vs. Budbandit shite going on forever?

I say some of your points are supremely valid. Some IMO are just nonsense. I would say with the impact you have on the n00b "community" you would have more of an open mind in regards to the tracks compliment to the street and vice versa. God knows most of you DO ride street and track. :hand

Anyhow.

YO onewheel thingy on the up...............................................


I didn't read anything that implied if you weren't fast you weren't shit. Rather I read,

"Wow dude I'm surprised, I actually learned alot" (this was my interpetation.)

So pull the sand out of your butt, and give a more articulate explanation of why you didn't learn anything :twofinger.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by canyonrat
Cornering lines on the street vary based upon the corner. For example, a blind corner with a hidden gravel driveway could command a tight entry point with a wide middle while slowing. This would be to avoid possible unseen gravel on the inside of the corner. This would not be a good track line.

I don't think the debate here concerns the backroad / canyon riding skillset you're speaking of, but rather an "urban riding" skillset.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I don't think the debate here concerns the backroad / canyon riding skillset you're speaking of, but rather an "urban riding" skillset. What would you consider the difference between "Street Riding" and canyon riding..

While it's not the topic I'm curious as to your opinion.

[christofu]

Originally posted by budbandit
Yes, I am comparing apples with oranges - different skillsets, abilities and capabilities. Unless I am misreading Holeshot entirely, he is saying in effect that there is one set of skills applicable to riding motorcycles and that set is best honed and developed on the road racing track. While I am certain that there are some awesomely skilled guys who have mastered riding on the knife edge that stands between blisteringly fast on a predictable and consistant track and disasterous excursion beyond the edge of the envelope, I am equally certain that this is but one aspect of riding. One of the great things about all these afm guys and roadracers and track whores is their great confidence in themselves. In a pussified America it is refreshing to come across such certainty and strong belief. However, one of the great shortcomings of many of these guys is their great confidence and from some perspectives arrogance and what seems to be a somewhat limited perspective. Bonneville top speed runs, drag races, urban couriers, trials riders, motocrossers and those stunnahs doing circle wheelies all have very little to do with going around a roadrace circuit but all have in their own area awesome skills.

As amusing as all the AFM dickwaving may be, and I will admit I am a sucker for colorful characters, the be all, end all, ultimate measure of goodness and value for all riders is not necessarily how fast you get around the same track regardless of how certain that Holeshot is about this point. Sure, going fast is fun but when I ride my goal is to have fun, not necessarily to go faster. A racer focused on little more than shaving fractions of seconds off laptimes will have a different perspective, and there are some who will argue that he may have missed the point, mistaking second shaving for the true goal, which for most recreational riders, is having a good time.

Sigh. I'm a little sad to see such a misperception coming from someone who seems to pride themselves on cutting through the bullshit.

Who says that riding on a track is all about pushing oneself to the knife's edge? Who says that riding on the track is all about riding as fast as you possibly can?

This is common misperception from people who have never been to the track. If I remember correctly (and please do correct me if I'm wrong, budbandit), you've never been to the track and have repeated expressed that you will never go to the track.

Well, more power to you.

Sure, going to the track relaxes some of the rules that we're subject to on the street. There aren't any police, no speed limits, no Volvos turning left, etc. We ride the same 15 turns all day, so there're no surprises about which way the next turn goes.

At one of our events what there is is a lot of instructors keeping a watchful eye on you, working with you to fix long held bad habits, working with you to develop new skills, constant feedback, suggestions, recommendations and classroom sessions with discussions and information.

This has nothing to do with exploring the 'knife's edge,' except, perhaps, subconsciously extending the buffer until you reach that point.

People who come to track days only to explore the 'knife's edge' are probably -- to use one of your favorite sayings-- 'fucktards', who are exchanging the opportunity to throw their bike away on the street for at least the statistically safer option of throwing their bike away at the track.

Fortunately, we do catch at lot of these before they do hit the ground, and often they come away from the day with a new appreciation of what track days really are: a place to practice new skills and polish old skills in a reasonably safer environment.

Sure, a trackday isn't going to help you predict what that stupid driver waiting to turn left is going to do. However, a track day will help you develop the skills to execute an avoidance plan once you do predict (or observe) what they do.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by abn375
What would you consider the difference between "Street Riding" and canyon riding..

While it's not the topic I'm curious as to your opinion.

When people refer to canyon riding, I think they're referring to a specialized subset of street riding.

It also seems to be primarily a southern california term, where most of the riding there is done in actual canyons.

Most of the people in this thread who are talking about street riding seem to be referring to the urban aspect of it. Traffic, lane sharing, city hazards, etc. Most of that has little to do with canyon riding.

[christofu]

By the way, I should point out that the only thing overtly in common between racing and track days is the venue.

Racing IS all about going as fast as you can. Track days ARE NOT all about that.

[Robert R1]

Trackdays are to help you get comfortable with your bike and confident in your ablility thus over time making you more relaxed and in better control of your bike at an accelerated pace.

When in a panic situtaion on the street, the person with more control and confidence has the obvious advantage. Have fun continuing to debate this.

Please don't bring up "but the experience on the street will help you avoid this!" to a very small degree but this experience could be quickly gained vs. the time it would require for Timmy the Rider to get the same level of confidence and control that he could achieve from the track vs. putting himself in danger on the street repeatedly trying to reach this level.

[budbandit]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I think this has less to do with skill and more to do with a conditioned numbness to potential threats in a very dangerous environment.

Actually drivers are better in Japan as well as most of Europe than here, more skilled, more courteous and more aware of two wheelers. Thus despite the closer tolerances the predictability and attention of the drivers in combination with the overall high quality of the road surfaces (few surprise potholes etc) and lower speeds (Japan) tend to make for a safer and less chaotic splitting situation than is the case here.

[budbandit]

Ah, dude, I was not talking about casual track days or track schools, I was talking about racing. Perhaps you can help me understand the purpose of racing if it is not to go as fast as possible in order to win.


Originally posted by christofu
Sigh. I'm a little sad to see such a misperception coming from someone who seems to pride themselves on cutting through the bullshit.

Who says that riding on a track is all about pushing oneself to the knife's edge? Who says that riding on the track is all about riding as fast as you possibly can?

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by budbandit
Ah, dude, I was not talking about casual track days or track schools, I was talking about racing. Perhaps you can help me understand the purpose of racing if it is not to go as fast as possible in order to win.

"By the way, I should point out that the only thing overtly in common between racing and track days is the venue.

Racing IS all about going as fast as you can. Track days ARE NOT all about that."

Try reading all the posts before typing next time.

[Climber]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Please don't bring up "but the experience on the street will help you avoid this!" to a very small degree but this experience could be quickly gained vs. the time it would require for Timmy the Rider to get the same level of confidence and control that he could achieve from the track vs. putting himself in danger on the street repeatedly trying to reach this level.
I have to disagree with your easy dismissal of the street skills that help street riders avoid situations in the first place.

I don't think that any of us argue against the real benefits of track riding from bike handling to quick responses.

But, to develop the skills involved to avoid many of the potential situations that can arise and putting yourself in the position of least vulnerability at all times takes years to develop. Just as a fast racer goes through years to become the fastest guy in the top class, so to a very safe street rider develops their awareness and ability to read the traffic patterns and intents of drivers over years of practice.

[budbandit]

Berto is actually at the top of the list of BARFers who I have not met but would like to. It is likely that I would be able to learn a lot from him both on and off the track. In the end I reckon that we probably agree a lot more than we disagree, but I think that both of us enjoy occasionally taking the other side of a philosophical position from the other. More than most, I suspect that we share a certain delight in jabbing a stick into the ant hill from time to time. I get the feeling that in real life, should a fellow rider ping Holeshot for help or advise, that despite it being hot or whatever, that he would probably go out of his way to help someone have a good track day.

As for dick waving, you should see little of that from me, but lots of folks seem to accuse me of that and similar stuff. I have never claimed to be much beyond an average rider, c+ at best who somehow survived a long history of protracted stupidity and fucktardation beyond even the wildest dreams of many on this board. Because of this good luck and recently a small dose of something, not sure if it is judgement or cowardice, I have come to the point where I have some experiences and closeminded opinions that I will from time to time insist upon sharing with the world more out of a spirit of meaness and spite than anything else. Besides, I have noted that a certain theatrical flare and embellishment tends to get attention where well reasoned, mature, elloquent expression often goes straight to the shitter.


Originally posted by abn375
Jason

No offense bro But I see a hell of a lot more dick waving, and close minded opinions from you than I do from Berto.

Knowing in fact that you're providing a service to the community and you're doing great things for people :thumbup, helps me to overlook you overt Squid Rhetoric. Which is probably intentional with the mind set if you save ONE it was worth it.

But taking into consideration the help other people have brought to the sport at all levels and appreciating their skill is important. I do agree.

It's my opinion that you pick on Berto in almost every thread to flex your mental muscle persay. Is it so impossible to admit or rather recognize his contributions as well?

Or are we going to have the Holeshot vs. Budbandit shite going on forever?

I say some of your points are supremely valid. Some IMO are just nonsense. I would say with the impact you have on the n00b "community" you would have more of an open mind in regards to the tracks compliment to the street and vice versa. God knows most of you DO ride street and track. :hand

Anyhow.

YO onewheel thingy on the up...............................................


I didn't read anything that implied if you weren't fast you weren't shit. Rather I read,

"Wow dude I'm surprised, I actually learned alot" (this was my interpetation.)

So pull the sand out of your butt, and give a more articulate explanation of why you didn't learn anything :twofinger.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Climber
I have to disagree with your easy dismissal of the street skills that help street riders avoid situations in the first place.

I don't think that any of us argue against the real benefits of track riding from bike handling to quick responses.

But, to develop the skills involved to avoid many of the potential situations that can arise and putting yourself in the position of least vulnerability at all times takes years to develop. Just as a fast racer goes through years to become the fastest guy in the top class, so to a very safe street rider develops their awareness and ability to read the traffic patterns and intents of drivers over years of practice.

In the end we're talking about sport bikes. Being that most motorcycle accidents are actually single vehicle incidents with the rider losing control, you'd think having more control over your bike would be more beneficial than just driving through traffic constantly. Perhaps I'm different as are people I used to ride with but majority of our time was spent in the backroads and not dealing with heavy traffic at all times or worrying about traffic patterns. Obviously someone who commutes on their BMW will have a different experience but since we're discussing track/street thus it's safe to assume sportbikes are the majority of the riders we're discussing.

Traffic pattens and general awareness can still be acheived much quicker than trying to advance your level of comfort on control and comfort on the street vs the track.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by budbandit
Actually drivers are better in Japan as well as most of Europe than here, more skilled, more courteous and more aware of two wheelers. Thus despite the closer tolerances the predictability and attention of the drivers in combination with the overall high quality of the road surfaces (few surprise potholes etc) and lower speeds (Japan) tend to make for a safer and less chaotic splitting situation than is the case here.

I have no doubt that the average driver in other countries are more aware, skilled, and courteous than they are in ours.

Still, if you're able to filter / split lanes with your bar ends just millimeters from body panels and mirrors in moving traffic, you're not just depending on skill.

You're depending on luck - and I'm not too keen on putting my life in luck's hands that way.

[wackyiraqi]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I have no doubt that the average driver in other countries are more aware, skilled, and courteous than they are in ours.

Not all countries. The two that pop to mind as insane-deathwish-driving countries are Morocco and China, and there are many more like them.

I would put American drivers around the high-middle of the skills curve on a world scale. We can't touch countries like Germany or the UK but, believe it or not, we're far FAR better than many others.

[jaek]

Originally posted by christofu
Racing IS all about going as fast as you can. Track days ARE NOT all about that.

Time trials are about going as fast as you can. Racing is about finishing in front of the other guy. Which is why your single would clean up in Formula III, even though a 125 might lap faster.

And of course going to the track can help your street riding - it gives you a chance to explore the interaction between the motorcycle, the road surface, and where the road goes, without worrying about traffic or varying road conditions or dying if you get it wrong. In my experience, it's also really good for getting out of the habit of target fixation / rubbernecking, and also good at getting into the mindset of "It looks like I might crash, but I haven't yet, so I'm gonna keep on riding and see if I can make it."

But I think it messes with your traffic sense, and your traffic sense also messes with track riding. Or at least that's my excuse as to why I could never pass anyone - if the person in front of you slows down unexpectedly, on the street you should slow down to better handle whatever the problem might be, and on the track you should brake later and run it up the inside.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by wackyiraqi
Not all countries. The two that pop to mind as insane-deathwish-driving countries are Morocco and China, and there are many more like them.
Good point. That reminds me of the Filipino left hand turn lane (far left curb in oncoming traffic) I saw people using the last time I was in Manila...

[doubleottcrash]

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MRCRASH907
I'm not sure what you're insinuating by this. This is just common sense for any rider, street or track.



Wow. and how long have you been riding? Common sense huh.
OKAY VET. What do ya do next?

Brake?

Throttle?

Roll back slow?

Cross walk on the other side of the track?

Sorry I guess I missed that page in my motorcyle riding training book. Please refresh my memory because Im sure every situation is exactly the same.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by doubleottcrash
Wow. and how long have you been riding? Common sense huh.
OKAY VET. What do ya do next?


Why would someone with an experienced street background have any advantage over a racer / track rider in such a situation? Experienced street riders and track riders should know enough to keep the bike as upright as possible over compromised traction conditions.

Why are you leaned over when you're crossing the wet train tracks to begin with?

[Traq]

Originally posted by Robert R1
In the end we're talking about sport bikes. Being that most motorcycle accidents are actually single vehicle incidents with the rider losing control, you'd think having more control over your bike would be more beneficial than just driving through traffic constantly. Perhaps I'm different as are people I used to ride with but majority of our time was spent in the backroads and not dealing with heavy traffic at all times or worrying about traffic patterns. Obviously someone who commutes on their BMW will have a different experience but since we're discussing track/street thus it's safe to assume sportbikes are the majority of the riders we're discussing.
Who was talking strictly about sportbikes? Street riding certainly is not restricted to sportbikes. :confused

Maybe you're only really talking about red sportbikes on Thursdays between 3:06 and 3:42 in the afternoon too? :laughing

Are the majority of bikes on the streets even sportbikes? I tend to think not, but I have no idea. Nor is it relevent. Who cares?

[Eldritch]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I've seen a few people post about how they believe track skills don't apply to street situations. If you're of this opinion, can you elaborate?

My stance: The control that a racer develops on the track is directly applicable to the street. Due to their experience at speed, racers will able to stop harder and turn faster than their street counterparts, giving them more options when situations arise.

Experienced racers also have a better feel for traction under different conditions, as well as the ability to recover from situations where traction is lost.

There's a reason racers are often slower than experienced street riders on public roads. They take into account the possibility of surface conditions around blind corners. They know that they're pretty much helpless if they split beyond a certain speed in traffic.

Opinions?

Is it a situational awareness deal? Street strategies? Do you think those really things that a racer's awareness and ability won't make up for?


Great thread, thanks for posting it. This is a pet peeve of mine and I’m glad you brought it up. Mojo’d.

I am CONSTANTLY irritated by what seems to be a common perception in the sportbike community that being a track ho makes someone some kind of badass authority on all things motorcycle. I don’t’ understand it. Track riding is like training wheels. It’s running experiments in a controlled environment. It’s not real to life practical experience, and just because it is 2 wheels on Asphalt does not make it the same thing as street riding.

The track can teach you a lot of great things about motorcycles, how to use gearing, throttle and handling in ways that no one has any business ever doing on the streets. But the reason the track let’s you explore areas of the sport that only few survive to see much of on the street is because they are in a sterile environment on the track. Must of the really good stuff you can learn (Keep in mind, I’m not a track rider) on the track will only help you minimally on the streets. Don’t get me wrong, every trick you can learn out there will help you on the streets. Track will teach you about top end performance, deep leans and high speed handling, Dirt will teach you about manhandling your bike in crunchy situations and how to put a leg down to save your ass, not to mention some of the finer points of how to roll with a crash to keep your ass as intact as possible. All these things can help but Dirt is dirt, Track is Track, and street is street.

Mr. Crash: You HAVE to be wrong about traction. How many times have you hit a gravel/dirt/oil/coolant patch on the Track? On the track have you ever hit a great gaping asshole of a pothole while coming through a blind turn at XXmph in the middle of thick automobile traffic? How about getting hit by/running over Lumber/Furniture/hub caps/newspapers/misc. garbage/Deer/Birds/Rabid Wombats? Street riders as part of day to day living deal with road conditions that would have every racer at his track day demanding a refund.

Aside from the misc. nuances of dreadfully worse road conditions, Street riders have to deal with a couple of brutal killers that Track riders do not have to think about, Cars and oncoming traffic. Sometimes you have to cut it close at the track when going through a corner, I’m sure, but as some one who is commuting almost 500 miles a week on his bike these days through San Francisco and on 101, I think I can safely say that little on the track will help me to learn more about splitting lanes with the maniacs who try to crush, squeeze and destroy me on a regular basis, If you don’t believe me, ask some of the Bay Bridge commute kids what they have to say about it. :wow

End of the line is this, track days can teach you to use the bike in a way that you won’t use it on the street, and who knows, it may come up as useful sometime on the street, just as Dirt or even Horseback riding might, learn as much as you can and you’re that much better equipped to deal when the shit hits the fan and granddaddy fate is calling on you to find your moment of clarity, but street is street, track is track, and I have never heard a street rider say he was going to stop riding track because it was too dangerous.

;)

[christofu]

Originally posted by Eldritch

End of the line is this, track days can teach you to use the bike in a way that you won’t use it on the street,


Ummm... so what you're saying is that you can't think of ANY SINGLE CIRCUMSTANCE on the street where you might benefit from having practiced:

good throttle control
hard braking
trail braking
fast turning techniques
refined your body position
smoothly integrating all your different controls
listening to and learning about your motorcycle


I'm sad that you think that. Because I can personally identify two different times as an experienced street rider that having skills I learned and practiced at the track saved my life (or at least from serious injury).

I like something that Traq mentioned earlier:

Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war.

I totally agree. The war is on the streets, but when I'm fighting on the front line I personally prefer to know how to shoot my weapon (where I want to shoot it, as opposed to accidently into my foot).

[wackyiraqi]

My dad can beat up your dad.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Traq
Who was talking strictly about sportbikes? Street riding certainly is not restricted to sportbikes. :confused

Maybe you're only really talking about red sportbikes on Thursdays between 3:06 and 3:42 in the afternoon too? :laughing

Are the majority of bikes on the streets even sportbikes? I tend to think not, but I have no idea. Nor is it relevent. Who cares?

when you're comparing track vs. street what kind of bikes do you think I'm talking about?

I've been to the track enough to know that more than 90% of the bike there were sportbikes. Since these are people who goto the track and then ride on the street also, we can only use them for our comparison.

As usual people on BARF will support their case with every possible "what if" scenario but that basis of track skills and street skills can only be compared using comparable machinery which in this case are sport bikes.

[Robert R1]

Eldritch, all your what if scenarios can be avoided by simply going the at the speed limit on the road intended. If you plan to go faster I suggest you to go the track and learn all those bullet points that christofu mentioned.

As for your comment to Mike, I assume you've never been to track thus you assume that it never has big bumps, oil, dirty, debris and reckless people endangering you.

[Alexey]

Originally posted by Robert R1
when you're comparing track vs. street what kind of bikes do you think I'm talking about?

I've been to the track enough to know that more than 90% of the bike there were sportbikes. Since these are people who goto the track and then ride on the street also, we can only use them for our comparison.

As usual people on BARF will support their case with every possible "what if" scenario but that basis of track skills and street skills can only be compared using comparable machinery which in this case are sport bikes.
Actually, that brings up an interesting point. As a separate discussion (maybe a different thread should be started), what does everyone think of acquiring track skills, maybe even racing skills, on appropriate machinery (a race bike) and then seeing how much of that applies to riding a standard or a tourer or perhaps even a cruiser or a full dresser. Bikes are bikes, no doubt, but things like weight transfer, tire feedback, chassis feel, effectiveness of body english, interfacing between your body and bike and so on vary greatly depending on the type of bike you're riding. Hm... lots to think about here.

[Holeshot]

BB, good response to Jason. I think we jab each other cause we can and it's the internet. Why not?

Back to the thread. I would like to know what a street skill truly is. I can't agree that reading traffic isn'tn something I haven't learned in my car/ truck. In fact, I'm smoother on all the controls in a car than I ever was, due to having to be that way in a track enviroment. My mind just works faster when in the height of race season. I'm not saying that someone who works traffic for an hour each way to work has a mind any slower, in fact that's almost more mentally taxing than anything. However, I am arguing that the skills used to avoid dangerous driving are the same basic skills as motorcycle control. If we all agree that (well the majority...) a track enviroment better's one's control over their machinery, than why can we not agree that such an increase in control will not aid in avoiding these on road obstacles?

The other BIG problem I have with these threads is people who have not been to the track commenting on it as if they're experts on its affects. I ride the street and used to ride ALOT on the street. I understand what exists out there and not because I ride simply a track enviroment, but also ride a street enviroment. The statements that one needs to ride the street to understand the risks is correct, but I believe simply driving on the streets provides the same opportunites for incidents for the most part. The same awareness is needed to avoid dipshit drivers (after having done it on a bike...).

But look, I'm really thinking of "skill" as "bike control". Do I think A NYC cabbie could out drive Dale Jr. in the city? It'd be an interesting race, all things being equal. I really don't believe as avoiding potholes or animals or roadsnakes anything more than an "Awareness" and not a skill. The skill comes in actually controlling the bike to avoid such an obstacle. Knowing where something like that is going to be? Give me a break...those fucking possums are always in the wrong spot!

[Eldritch]

Originally posted by christofu
Ummm... so what you're saying is that you can't think of ANY SINGLE CIRCUMSTANCE on the street where you might benefit from having practiced:

good throttle control
hard braking
trail braking
fast turning techniques
refined your body position
smoothly integrating all your different controls
listening to and learning about your motorcycle


I'm sad that you think that. Because I can personally identify two different times as an experienced street rider that having skills I learned and practiced at the track saved my life (or at least from serious injury).



*Sigh* With the exception of Fast Turning Techniques you won't learn any of the above on the Track any better than you will on the street. Hell, the street will teach you more about hard braking, trail braking and throttle control than you will on the track because you have to use it all a lot more often and a lot more suddenly than on the track courses I've seen. There is also the lack of consistancy factor in unknown roads.

Originally posted by Robert R1

Eldritch, all your what if scenarios can be avoided by simply going the at the speed limit on the road intended. If you plan to go faster I suggest you to go the track and learn all those bullet points that christofu mentioned.

As for your comment to Mike, I assume you've never been to track thus you assume that it never has big bumps, oil, dirty, debris and reckless people endangering you.

What are you talking about? All of those scenarios can not, simply be avoided by going the speed limit? How the fuck does going the speed limit men a chiar does not fall off a truck right in front of you? Does the speed limit make the oil slick dissappear or the hubcaps, etc.? Certainly speed control makes it easier to deal with the situations, but I never suggested otherwise. Fuck, that's what I have been saying along along, the track is for Sprinting, the streets are the obstacle course. I'm sure there are some obstacles on the track as well, but you wil have a hard time EVER convincing me that a track riding is as full of bullshit road conditions as someone that lives SOMA or in Oakland and rides around in the city all day. Keep in mind when you're talking street, you're talking City Riders & Freeway Commuters, not a bunch of Canyon Carving squids on country backroads.

The Backroads Only high velocity squids are just assholes trying to treat public roads LIKE the Track and fucking the street sport up for the rest of us.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by Eldritch
, not a bunch of Canyon Carving squids on country backroads.


:rolleyes

GMAFB:laughing

Gee, I've seen more squids on the street than in the canyons. Wait! That would make a great new SQUID thread. :laughing

You know what y'all need to do is just STFU and go on a good long ride :teeth

[ryanb]

The only REAL motorcyclists are professional and dedicated club racers! Cant touch this! Uhn!

The only REAL motorcyclists are backroad sportbike riders! Peep my lack of CHICKEN strips! Bitches!

The only REAL motorcyclists are citybike hooligans! Arrrrr matey! I'm a street pirate!

The only REAL motorcyclists are the hard-core commuters! My aerostitch is FADED, BITCH!

The only REAL motorcyclists are stunnaz with 12-oclock bars and crash cages! I park my bike VERTICAL! C U AT STARBUX, LAMERZ!

[Alexey]

Originally posted by Eldritch
*Sigh* With the exception of Fast Turning Techniques you won't learn any of the above on the Track any better than you will on the street. Hell, the street will teach you more about hard braking, trail braking and throttle control than you will on the track because you have to use it all a lot more often and a lot more suddenly than on the track courses I've seen.
This is sooo wrong on sooo many levels. How many braking threads have we had in the racer's corner? Please don't tell me about an average street-only rider having better throttle control than someone with decent track experience. Ever tried to ride track in the wet? Jeez.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by ryanb
The only REAL motorcyclists are stunnaz with 12-oclock bars and crash cages! I park my bike VERTICAL! C U AT STARBUX, LAMERZ!

Starbux... it's not just for stunnaz anymore, yo. :laughing

[christofu]

Originally posted by Eldritch
*Sigh* With the exception of Fast Turning Techniques you won't learn any of the above on the Track any better than you will on the street. Hell, the street will teach you more about hard braking, trail braking and throttle control than you will on the track because you have to use it all a lot more often and a lot more suddenly than on the track courses I've seen. There is also the lack of consistancy factor in unknown roads.


Well, as an expert witness on this subject I can tell you that based on my observations, you are wrong.

I get hundreds if not thousands of new track riders through our school every year. Many of these are VERY experienced street riders. And yet the kind of feedback we get is "OMG! I thought I knew how to ride a motorcycle! You guys have really shown me how much more there is to learn!"

Yes, you can muddle through on your own. You can even muddle through on your own on the street. But seriously, you're going to learn faster with a tutor who can provide immediate feedback and suggestions. You can't tell me that's wrong because having an unbiased expert third party communicating new ideas, evaluating your performance and providing correction is a key part of any learning experience. That's why teachers exist and we don't just have books.

Sure, you can get your buddy to help you out on the street, too. But just by its nature, learning at the track is safer, faster and more people have access to good teachers.

[wackyiraqi]

How a group of people with such similar interests could find something so nebulous and inconsequential to argue about is a testament to how stupid the human race is.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Eldritch
*Sigh* With the exception of Fast Turning Techniques you won't learn any of the above on the Track any better than you will on the street. Hell, the street will teach you more about hard braking, trail braking and throttle control than you will on the track because you have to use it all a lot more often and a lot more suddenly than on the track courses I've seen. There is also the lack of consistancy factor in unknown roads.



I beg to differ.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Eldritch
Canyon Carving squids on country backroads.

The Backroads Only high velocity squids are just assholes trying to treat public roads LIKE the Track and fucking the street sport up for the rest of us. Race yah for pinks bitch :twofinger :laughingOriginally posted by }Dragon{
:rolleyes

GMAFB:laughing

Gee, I've seen more squids on the street than in the canyons. Wait! That would make a great new SQUID thread. :laughing

You know what y'all need to do is just STFU and go on a good long ride :teeth X2

I think RyanB covered most of it :laughing

[budbandit]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present RyanB with Post of the Day:


Originally posted by ryanb
The only REAL motorcyclists are professional and dedicated club racers! Cant touch this! Uhn!

The only REAL motorcyclists are backroad sportbike riders! Peep my lack of CHICKEN strips! Bitches!

The only REAL motorcyclists are citybike hooligans! Arrrrr matey! I'm a street pirate!

The only REAL motorcyclists are the hard-core commuters! My aerostitch is FADED, BITCH!

The only REAL motorcyclists are stunnaz with 12-oclock bars and crash cages! I park my bike VERTICAL! C U AT STARBUX, LAMERZ!

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
You know what y'all need to do is just STFU and go on a good long ride :teeth
That's exactly what I did last weekend, logging over 200 miles while helping a friend with a few basic riding control techniques in preparation for her first trackday.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by budbandit
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present RyanB with Post of the Day: :thumbup

[}Dragon{]

http://www.blamonet.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Retard_Win.jpg

:laughing

[VillageIdiot]

:laughing :laughing :laughing :laughing

[}Dragon{]

I bet ya haven't seen that one in a while :laughing

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Eldritch
Mr. Crash: You HAVE to be wrong about traction. How many times have you hit a gravel/dirt/oil/coolant patch on the Track? On the track have you ever hit a great gaping asshole of a pothole while coming through a blind turn at XXmph in the middle of thick automobile traffic? How about getting hit by/running over Lumber/Furniture/hub caps/newspapers/misc. garbage/Deer/Birds/Rabid Wombats? Street riders as part of day to day living deal with road conditions that would have every racer at his track day demanding a refund.

Track riders don't live in a sterile bubble free of road hazards. If they live where you live, see these same hazards as often as you do. They're not from another planet. As many people have mentioned, a track derived skillset gives you more options to deal with those kinds of hazards.

Do you really deal with rabid wombats flying at you out of trucks every day? Fuck, I think I would probably quit riding after the third one...

Aside from the misc. nuances of dreadfully worse road conditions, Street riders have to deal with a couple of brutal killers that Track riders do not have to think about, Cars and oncoming traffic. Sometimes you have to cut it close at the track when going through a corner, I’m sure, but as some one who is commuting almost 500 miles a week on his bike these days through San Francisco and on 101, I think I can safely say that little on the track will help me to learn more about splitting lanes with the maniacs who try to crush, squeeze and destroy me on a regular basis.

Sounds like issue there is with reading and predicting traffic patterns. Did we come to any conclusion regarding that? Are we referring to that as a skill, or as experience?

If you don’t believe me, ask some of the Bay Bridge commute kids what they have to say about it. :wow
;)

I was part of that club for years, with a 100 mile daily commute not unlike yours. These days, I'm way more conservative in traffic than I used to be. I don't think it's because my "street skills" are rusty - moreso because I'm no longer numb to the threats around me.

[Wrong Way]

I was going to do a track day next week. It is a good thing I read this thread. Maybe I can get my money back and save all the grief of not learning anything. After two decades of street riding, how could the track possibly have anything to offer me?

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Wrong Way
I was going to do a track day next week. It is a good thing I read this thread. Maybe I can get my money back and save all the grief of not learning anything. After two decades of street riding, how could the track possibly have anything to offer me? sure as hell won't save you from rabid wombats mario :laughing.

okay I'll stop bastardizing the thread sorry folks :teeth

[Kensaku]

Originally posted by Eldritch
*Sigh* With the exception of Fast Turning Techniques you won't learn any of the above on the Track any better than you will on the street. Hell, the street will teach you more about hard braking, trail braking and throttle control than you will on the track because you have to use it all a lot more often and a lot more suddenly than on the track courses I've seen. There is also the lack of consistancy factor in unknown roads.


Mike - I'm disappointed in this comment. The street will NOT teach you about hard braking, trail braking, or throttle control...it's really as simple as that. Additionally, the repetitive nature of the track does indeed result in reaching the limits of braking/throttle on your bike than the street. When someone crashes in front of you going 100+ mph, that's as sudden as encountering a deer on the road...