A.B.S. is it all it's cracked up to be?

[fluffybunnyfeet]

I'm in the market for a bike and After talking to a cop yesterday, Im thinking ABS is a good idea. But, is it worth the extra money? I'll be commuting on 280 30 miles each way.
What say you great interweb advisors?

[bsd43]

I have it, haven't had to use it for real yet (that I know of), but it's worth the small $800 premium at the time I bought the bike, IMHO.

[rocketbunny]

Oh god...here we go again.

I have it but haven't used it yet. I like knowing it's there if I ever need it.

Heh, put it this way: The cost of ABS is probably slightly cheaprer than the cost of replacing your fairings/signals/levers if you drop or crash because you locked up the brakes.

Oh, and many sportbikes are offered with ABS as an option in Europe... and I bet if more were offered here, it would be far more popular. Right now it's got the "sport-touring stigma" here.

[wickerman777]

Alot of people don not like it and will complain about failures and that locking up the wheels can be beneficial in some circumstances but until you have to emergency brake in the rain and the bike stops fast without crashing you will be a believer. Nobody seems to like it until they are forced to use it and then they love it. I am a bmw mechanic and I can tell you that failures are very rare and you know the minute you start the bike if there is a fault in the abs system. There is still adequate braking ability if the abs fails. I have never seen a bike that crashed as the result of an abs failure.

[ScottRNelson]

If I rode much in the rain or did very much long distance riding (which includes getting rained on, usually), I would want a bike with ABS.

I've read about the ST3 and ST4 riders with ABS and how it makes a big difference in stopping on wet roads. Since I try to never ride in the rain, it's not so important to me.

[Enchanter]

ABS is a tool. Use it within its designed area of use and it will yeild good results. Use it in a manner outside of it's limitations and results will not be good.

What I'm trying to get at here is that many newer riders assume that the techniques for using ABS on a motorcycle are the same as the techniques as when using ABS in a car. They are not.

When engaging ABS in a car, the driver still has the ability to control the direction of a car (for the most part). You can slam on the brakes in a car(with ABS) and still steer. On a motorcycle steering with ABS engaged is likely to produce a fall.

Remember, ABS senses impending lock up by monitoring wheel speed. A motorcycle can overcome the traction available (when turning & braking) long before there is a speed difference between the tires. In other words: Long before the ABS kicks in.

[plumber]

Originally posted by wickerman777
I am a bmw mechanic and I can tell you that failures are very rare and you know the minute you start the bike if there is a fault in the abs system. There is still adequate braking ability if the abs fails. I have never seen a bike that crashed as the result of an abs failure.

Can you repeat that?



I am a bmw mechanic and I can tell you that failures are very rare and you know the minute you start the bike if there is a fault in the abs system. There is still adequate braking ability if the abs fails. I have never seen a bike that crashed as the result of an abs failure

[fubar929]

Can you stoppie? If not, you need to practice braking, not buy ABS.

While ABS certainly seems like a good idea, I have to admit that I haven't yet run into a situation where having it would have saved my ass. In traffic, I tend to leave plenty of stopping distance between my bike and the traffic I'm following. When someone pulls out in front of me, I tend to swerve around them rather than hit the brakes (too much track time, I guess). In the rain, I tend to greatly extend the amount of room I give myself to stop...

[plumber]

Originally posted by fubar929
Can you stoppie? If not, you need to practice braking, not buy ABS.

While ABS certainly seems like a good idea, I have to admit that I haven't yet run into a situation where having it would have saved my ass. In traffic, I tend to leave plenty of stopping distance between my bike and the traffic I'm following. When someone pulls out in front of me, I tend to swerve around them rather than hit the brakes (too much track time, I guess). In the rain, I tend to greatly extend the amount of room I give myself to stop...

I'm sure you hold the same opinion for air bags, seat belts and proper riding gear.:laughing

[Sidewalk]

I would have paid for it as an option if my RR came with it.

If I had the option, I would take it. As someone else said, it is a tool only.

[nweaver]

Having locked up a front wheel in a braking exercise, I can tell you I REALLY want ABS.

On clean, dry pavement, a good rider can outbreak the ABS system by 2-3%. The moment the pavement gets crudy (wet, sand, oil, etc etc etc), ABS beats the rider by 50% or more.

[shraz]

I wouldnt mind having it in the rear

[plumber]

Originally posted by shraz
I wouldnt mind having it in the rear

Don't worry........they say you're only gay if you like it.

[notfromcali]

Originally posted by shraz
I wouldnt mind having it in the rear


:confused :wow








:teeth


I wouldn't mind trying abs on a bike. Certainly couldn't hurt.

[HondaFreak]

I might buy it. ABS would have kept me from locking up my front at 3 mph because I grabbed too hard.
However having ABS wouldn't help my braking skills.
I think there are pro's and con's, just like everything else.

[scalvert]

For general purpose street riding I'm fond of the idea of ABS. The point made in this thread that ABS is not a substitute for riding skills is very important, but not a reason to avoid ABS.

For the record I have crashed a streetbike in a manner that would have been saved by ABS. I've also had a near miss that wouldn't have been so close with ABS. In both cases I had good but not perfect responses to right of way violations by cars. The incidents resulted in a renewed focus on braking skills, but I hardly think my skills were poor either before or after.

[nathan]

Originally posted by plumber
I'm sure you hold the same opinion for air bags, seat belts and proper riding gear.:laughing

Seriously, if you're not going to wreck why even bother with buying insurance.....

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by HondaFreak
I might buy it. ABS would have kept me from locking up my front at 3 mph because I grabbed too hard.
However having ABS wouldn't help my braking skills.
I think there are pro's and con's, just like everything else.

Hey Christian-

Not sure if the 3mph reference was a joke or a misprint, or the truth....

Just in case it was reality for you:
Most ABS systems cannot monitor speed effectively below 5-7 mph and essentially shut off below those speeds. This will then allow the wheel(s) to lock.

[2legs2wheels]

informative thread...

[shraz]

Originally posted by plumber
Don't worry........they say you're only gay if you like it.

too bad u were the first in line :green :p

[bhaynnes]

Yes, it is. Got it on mine and it has saved my bacon more than once.

[HondaFreak]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Hey Christian-

Not sure if the 3mph reference was a joke or a misprint, or the truth....

Just in case it was reality for you:
Most ABS systems cannot monitor speed effectively below 5-7 mph and essentially shut off below those speeds. This will then allow the wheel(s) to lock.
Reference:http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157031
My speed was about 3-5 mph. I grabbed too hard, front skipped and alomost wound up on my fairing.
I didn't know ABS was ineffective at low speed. Thanks Tim. That's why I am coming back to your class.
Christian

[fubar929]

Originally posted by plumber
I'm sure you hold the same opinion for air bags, seat belts and proper riding gear.:laughing

How many of your dozen working brain cells did you use to draw that completely unwarranted conclusion? :twofinger

[chiara]

ABS is a good thing on your street bike. In order to avoid the predictable, "You need to learn how to use your brakes" response, I'll just say that I would be mightily impressed by anyone who could conclusively prove that they personally can out-break their ABS when the road turns slippery.

[plumber]

Originally posted by fubar929
How many of your dozen working brain cells did you use to draw that completely unwarranted conclusion? :twofinger

I wasn't the one stating they had Valentino's skill and didn't need modern safety advances to help save their hide. I appreciate all tested modern safety technology. I'll use all of the tools available to keep the grim reaper at bay. Proper training and practice are considered tools in my book.

You would only be fooling yourself if you think you can haul a motorcycle down, in all conditions safer without ABS.

[fubar929]

Originally posted by plumber
You would only be fooling yourself if you think you can haul a motorcycle down, in all conditions safer without ABS.

Work on your reading comprehension, asshat: I didn't say that!

What I said is: I, personally, have never found myself in a situation where ABS would have made a difference between making it and crashing. In cases where I've crashed, ABS wasn't going to save me. In cases where I didn't crash, obviously, it was possible to escape without ABS.

Do I channel Valentino Rossi to do this? No. On the street, I ride relatively conservatively and am always hyper-aware of my environment and the potential dangers that might present themselves. I'm always thinking about where a fucktard cager might appear, where my escape route is, etc.

When the weather turns shitty, I adjust my riding and braking styles as appropriate. I allow even more room to brake, reduce my speed and lean angles accordingly, and so on.

In addition, I've spent quite a bit of time on the track learning not to be ham-fisted with the brake lever. To be honest, I'm not sure I could make myself lock the front brake if I tried! This isn't a hard skill to learn, it just takes a bit of practice. If you can stoppie at will, then you can also squeeze the lever a bit less and leave the rear tire skimming across the top of the pavement.

So: why can't you do these same things? And if you could, what advantage would you hope to gain from ABS?

Don't get me wrong: I am not saying that you shouldn't get ABS on your motorcycle. Hey, if you're a ham-fisted newb or weekend warrior who's going to smash the brake lever to the bar the instant before you're about to rear-end somebody, ABS is absolutely positively the only thing that's likely to save your ass!

But rather than rely on the ABS crutch, why not learn to use non-ABS brakes to their maximum effectiveness and improve your situational awareness so that you're less likely to need unreasonable braking in the first place?

[Vane]

:Popcorn

[plumber]

Originally posted by fubar929

In addition, I've spent quite a bit of time on the track learning not to be ham-fisted with the brake lever. To be honest, I'm not sure I
But rather than rely on the ABS crutch, why not learn to use non-ABS brakes to their maximum effectiveness and improve your situational awareness so that you're less likely to need unreasonable braking in the first place?

Sweetness

I'm not particularly impressed by your number of trackdays. You apparently have reached a plateau or you would be contesting something other than the Sunday morning ride.

There's nothing wrong with practicing your skills at the limit. Everybody should practice thoroughly and frequently.

Why do you think Formula 1 has traction control? They very well could be the best drivers in the world but they still operate better with traction control. It's because a human can't process and respond as fast as a computer.

I sincerely hope you have a long healthy riding career. Keep your head up and stay out of trouble.

[artyom666]

Originally posted by wickerman777
I am a bmw mechanic and I can tell you that failures are very rare
Interesting. I used to have BMW F650GSA. ABS failed 3 times in one year. On a new bike. Every time completely replaced by BMW under warranty. Each time bike was in a shop for 3 - 4 weeks.
Very reliable indeed. I knew several other owners with non working abs.
I wouldn't mind having it us an option on any jap bike.
Most usefull in a city.

[VroomVroomVroom]

Originally posted by HondaFreak
ABS would have kept me from locking up my front at 3 mph because I grabbed too hard.


no it wouldn't, it only works above a certain mph, usually about 5mph, at 3mph you could still get the tire to lock up for an instant, the abs cannot react at that slow of a speed,

ABS is awesome in the rain (well in a car anyway), on a bike it would be less so, but still effective in a straight line, in a car ABS is incredible going around corners, a bike would likely still slide out around a wet corner even with ABS due to lean angle,

[joespeedfast]

I think it's nice to have on a big cushy barge, as long as I can turn it off!:p Keep that extra 30lbs. of clutter off my sprotbile though. :hand

[Silence]

Manual ABS ftw! :twofinger

[Rocket0606v1]

I think th elinked brakes work particularly well. Next step away from ABS, but makes more sense, is some ways. AT least it transfers the braking power front/back more consistently.

[fubar929]

Originally posted by plumber
I'm not particularly impressed by your number of trackdays. You apparently have reached a plateau or you would be contesting something other than the Sunday morning ride.

I don't recall asking you to be impressed... but thanks for your condescending bullshit anyway. A truely brilliant argument about the merits of ABS! You've changed my whole fucking opinion with that one, plumber!!! :twofinger


Why do you think Formula 1 has traction control? They very well could be the best drivers in the world but they still operate better with traction control. It's because a human can't process and respond as fast as a computer.

Right. And just what does your crappy $800 motorcycle ABS have in common with the traction control system on a multi-million dollar 1000HP open-wheel racecar?

Or, a perhaps more relevant question is: if ABS is so wonderful, which ABS systems are Valentino and Hayden using on their MotoGP bikes?

[JPM]

Learn without ABS but get it if you can. I have had quite a bit of decel braking training but I know my ABS has activated hard twice and probably helped me avoid a collision; but you also need to know how a bike will react, to be able to stand it up if you are in a lean, which is why I say learn on non-ABS. I have only had experience with BMW ABS and have not had any problems yet.

Keep in mind that in a panic situation, even professionals with a lot of training can stomp the brakes and be afraid to hit the front brake. Look at most motorcycle accidents. You will see one long squiggly brake line. Means no front brake applied (Which is most of your braking) and the rear locked (Which means you are getting no brake friction to stop you). Of course if you lock the front there is no question that you are going down so people are hesitant to hit them. With ABS you know you can grab the front hard and stomp the rear and take away that human error in a panic.

[nweaver]

Fubar: Most motorcycle racing organizations specifically forbid ABS.

And racing on a track is VERY different from the street. No random patches of gravel. No mysterious oil slicks from some random old POS ford. No using the same tyres for dry conditions or rain....

See previous: On dry pavement, a good rider outbrakes ABS by 2-3%. Thats significant on race day. That plus the 2 lbs for system and sensors? No way would you want ABS on a motoGP bike (and you would want to disable it on your track bike).


But I'd like to see Valantino try stopping a bike on wet pavement where there happens to be a patch of oily sand in the middle of his braking line, and beat the ABS system. If anyone could, he could. But I doubt he would be able to.

[Enchanter]

Let's not forget that even though ABS sounds great for those worst case sceanarios, it is our job as a rider to avoid getting ourselves into that perdicament in the first place.

I can honestly say that in the 20+ years that I've been riding, I have never been in a position where ABS would have kept me from crashing. Sure, sure, sure, never say never right? Well, it's still the truth. I'm not going to put myself into that situation in the first place. Funny thing is, the same statement applies to my car driving as well.

[boney]

I've been waiting to see where this thread went. I have two bikes with ABS and it's saved my bacon once or twice.

IF
In an emergency situation you can feather your brakes to prevent a skid on a changing road surface, steer around obstacles, AND simulaneously keep track of the traffic around you, THEN you don't need ABS.

I can lock the front, or the rear, and release them without loosing control on a constant surface. Dirt or street, so long as the surfaces doesn't change much. I can brake, release, steer, and brake again to maintain control in a "practiced" bad situation, and keeping track of the traffic around me has become second nature. HOWEVER, the last time I needed to stop quickly, to keep from hitting a jackass that was driving across the backside of all the toll lanes at the GG Bridge, none of what I practiced came into play. I hammered the brakes, the ABS fired and I stopped 2 inches shy of becoming tourist induced rental van roadkill. If I had locked either wheel, I would have gone down in the oil a crap you find around all the toll lanes, and slid under the front end of that van.

It's a bit of a PITA on the F650GS to turn it off everytime I start the engine while in the dirt, and it fires a lot on quicker stops on the street when the rear wheel unloads, but I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. The ABS on my RT is seamless and operates almost unnoticably.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by boney
I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

Good statement. I like it.

[plumber]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Let's not forget that even though ABS sounds great for those worst case sceanarios, it is our job as a rider to avoid getting ourselves into that perdicament in the first place.

I can honestly say that in the 20+ years that I've been riding, I have never been in a position where ABS would have kept me from crashing. Sure, sure, sure, never say never right? Well, it's still the truth. I'm not going to put myself into that situation in the first place. Funny thing is, the same statement applies to my car driving as well.

Fubar and yourself are........for lack of a better word......FUBAR in the head. This thread isn't about the best case scenario. It's about the 1 in a thousand chance that you can't avoid an imperfect patch of pavement during emergency braking.

I know you have taught MSF for milienia and Fubar has done a lot of track days. You both have apparently honed your braking skills to the limits that you recognize. It's only egotistical to believe you can mentally process and physically respond faster than the computer 100% of the time, under all conditions. I'm sure your egos give you confidence and belief that you are invincible. I'll leave you to your vices.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by plumber
Fubar and yourself are........for lack of a better word......FUBAR in the head. This thread isn't about the best case scenario. It's about the 1 in a thousand chance that you can't avoid an imperfect patch of pavement during emergency braking.

I know you have taught MSF for milienia and Fubar has done a lot of track days. You both have apparently honed your braking skills to the limits that you recognize. It's only egotistical to believe you can mentally process and physically respond faster than the computer 100% of the time, under all conditions. I'm sure your egos give you confidence and belief that you are invincible. I'll leave you to your vices.

You counselling anyone about ego is funny. If you cannot contribute to a thread without flinging insults, do not contribute at all. You do not strengthen your opinions by flinging around your ego while trying to call someone out for theirs.

I did not claim to be able to process faster than a computer.

I said:
ABS is a tool. Use it within its designed area of use and it will yeild good results. Use it in a manner outside of it's limitations and results will not be good.

I also said:
it is our job as a rider to avoid getting ourselves into that perdicament in the first place.

And:
I can honestly say that in the 20+ years that I've been riding, I have never been in a position where ABS would have kept me from crashing. Sure, sure, sure, never say never right?

As you referenced, my background is in training. As such, I took the time to remind people to concentrate on avoiding the situation in the first place. Explain to me where you come to the conclusion that that is 'fubar'. Not once did I say that ABS is a bad thing. Not once did I try to tell someone to NOT get a bike with ABS.

I have seen more than a few students that RELY on abs for their everyday braking rather than using it as a back-up for an emergency. It is my person experience that novice and experience riders in my class really do NOT understand how to use effectively use ABS on a motorcycle. They assume that it should be used exactly as it is in a car. So I attempted to pass on some additional infomation for the original poster and the other readers. You evidently have a problem with that. I do not understand why.

Please continue to contribute to this thread, but leave out the insults. Clear?

[plumber]

Originally posted by Enchanter
You counselling anyone about ego is funny. If you cannot contribute to a thread without flinging insults, do not contribute at all. You do not strengthen your opinions by flinging around your ego while trying to call someone out for theirs.

I did not claim to be able to process faster than a computer.

I said:
ABS is a tool. Use it within its designed area of use and it will yeild good results. Use it in a manner outside of it's limitations and results will not be good.

I also said:
it is our job as a rider to avoid getting ourselves into that perdicament in the first place.

And:
I can honestly say that in the 20+ years that I've been riding, I have never been in a position where ABS would have kept me from crashing. Sure, sure, sure, never say never right?

As you referenced, my background is in training. As such, I took the time to remind people to concentrate on avoiding the situation in the first place. Explain to me where you come to the conclusion that that is 'fubar'. Not once did I say that ABS is a bad thing. Not once did I try to tell someone to NOT get a bike with ABS.

I have seen more than a few students that RELY on abs for their everyday braking rather than using it as a back-up for an emergency. It is my person experience that novice and experience riders in my class really do NOT understand how to use effectively use ABS on a motorcycle. They assume that it should be used exactly as it is in a car. So I attempted to pass on some additional infomation for the original poster and the other readers. You evidently have a problem with that. I do not understand why.

Please continue to contribute to this thread, but leave out the insults. Clear?

I promise I won't fling a derogatory remark unless I receive one first. I think that's fair enough.


My problem with your earlier remarks is how you (as I perceived) dismissed ABS for nothing but a crutch. You highlighted this comment by describing how your superiors skills and perception have avoided ANY and ALL situations where ABS would have prevented an accident. Fubar basically stated the same thing. You were both basically stating that anybody who wants/needs ABS is somehow lesser of a rider than you.

My point is that a majority of riders aren't at your level and never will be. That doesn't mean they can't operate and enjoy motorcycles. The cruiser crowd is a fine example. I doubt many of them ever have practiced dropping the anchor on their 800# behemoths. Panic situations finds them locking the rear and skiding wherever Newton tells them to go. An ABS system would be a perfcet safety feature because in reality they aren't practicing enough.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by plumber
I promise I won't fling a derogatory remark unless I receive one first. I think that's fair enough.
I see your point, but I would prefer that you not do that. That way only one person looks like a child, and I only have to 'moderate' one person. Please try.

Originally posted by plumber
My problem with your earlier remarks is how you (as I perceived) dismissed ABS for nothing but a crutch. You highlighted this comment by describing how your superiors skills and perception have avoided ANY and ALL situations where ABS would have prevented an accident. Fubar basically stated the same thing. You were both basically stating that anybody who wants/needs ABS is somehow lesser of a rider than you.
In my initial post I said it was a tool, and when used properly, it works well. I also pointed out that when used improperly bad things could happen.

I NEVER said I had superior skills, I just shared my experience that I have not needed it. How does that tell readers that they are lesser riders. I can see that implication in Fubars posts, but not mine. Maybe I'm missing something.

Originally posted by plumber
My point is that a majority of riders aren't at your level and never will be. That doesn't mean they can't operate and enjoy motorcycles. The cruiser crowd is a fine example. I doubt many of them ever have practiced dropping the anchor on their 800# behemoths. Panic situations finds them locking the rear and skiding wherever Newton tells them to go. An ABS system would be a perfcet safety feature because in reality they aren't practicing enough.

I agree that most riders (sportbikes included) don't know how to use their brakes effectively. Recent threads on BARF keep implying that all riders want to be faster, lean farther, brake deeper. I do not believe that at all. Many riders just want a cool new toy to ride to *bucks or around the block, or just to park in their garage.

In the end we agree:
Most riders do not practice enough.
Training is good.
ABS can be useful if used correctly.

[bhaynnes]

Enchanter:


I'll tell you one place where aBS really shines. Gravel. I've come in hot to the gravel pit above Alices on purpose and grabbed the brakes hard and stopped with no problem. Did it just as a test. I think it is a good idea; no make that a requirement, to learn to brake properly without ABS first. That way if they fail on you, you aren't up the creek without the paddle, but if you do know how to brake safely and properly, they are a great tool.