Stopping on a uphill left or right turn

[DoubleJayR6Ride]

Hi.

I have a general question for some of the more expert riders (especially ones that ride every day in SF...i can't imagine that!)

If you were facing an uphil turn (L or R), and had to break all of a sudden, what would you do? With some of the Uphill turns in SF, i would think it would be quite difficutl.

Any pointers would be great. I would imagine you would try to upright you bike and break and that way you bike doesnt' have too much lean that will lead to maybe dropping you bike

I dont' know, any thoughts? Thanks guys.

[yohuallin]

i always use both brakes, and once i want to take off again a keep the rear brake on, so i can use my right hand to accelerate.....

[kentuckyfried]

Does anybody know of any good areas to practice hills in the South Bay (Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Campbell)?

I seriously need the practice.

[DucatiHoney]

I ride in the city everyday, but I really don't see what the issue is behind your question. So you're riding up California street and a bum loses a half a dozen cans off of his cart as you're heading towards Calla Foods. You had your signal on and were preparing to turn. This forces you to grab a bunch of brake, which also forces you to grab the clutch in order not to stall. So you're in 2nd gear, the light's turned green and you're on a decent slope waiting for the bum to finish up. You tap it into first (which you should have done immediately after planting your feet down to keep the bike upright.) Bum moves out of the way and you want to complete your turn. The incline is problematic because you either need to be relatively quick on letting out the clutch and twisting the throttle or you need to hold on the rear brake while you feather on the gas and clutch in order not to roll back.

Does that make sense?

Uphill right-hand turns generally are a no-stop situation. 90% of the time you can just keep rolling up the right hand side of traffic until you hit the crosswalk and then make your turn without stopping--regardless of the stoplight or sign situation. The cops are not necessarily looking for you to come to a complete stop at all lights/signs--just for you to touch a foot down or roll through at a minimal speed that would allow you to come to a complete stop very easily. That's my personal experience--I've done the "rolling stop" consistently in front of cops with no problem several times. I will usually tap my left toe on the ground just to give them a visual, however.

Left hand turns on steep inclines usually force me to use the rear brake like in the scenario I outlined. If you ~do~ roll backwards just keep the bars straight and keep your feet down. I see more people try to turn backwards when they roll backwards and end up dumping the bike because the bars follow their head--or they grabe a bunch of brake and stop too quickly and the bike tips. Just stay straight, don't panic and give it a little more gas...you'll move forward. Smooth, thoughtful input controls are the key to good riding.

Steep downhills aren't an issue at all really, because you can just roll through any turn without use of the gas--the down hill gives you momentum. Little risk of stalling in this situation, which is an issue on an incline. I typically use a little rear brake if I'm doing a good clip to stop hard on a steep downhill. Otherwise you can find yourself doing a stoppie. The rear brake just helps to keep the chassis stable and not load the front so much.

This is just my experience with this sort of thing. I'm not saying that I'm an expert, but I've been cruising SF for a few years now and haven't had any problems with the hills. I'd say people's biggest mistake is either going too fast or slow. On uphills, don't bomb through the intersection at the crest of a hill if it's blind--even if you have a green light. A "little" speed on uphills will help make the bike feel more stable as opposed to crawling up in first gear at 2 mph. On downhills, be gentle with the front brake and drag the rear brake a little to keep the bike more stable.

Good luck!

[Oddjob]

When you are in city traffic you should always cover the front brake (with two fingers). When you need to start on an incline you simply twist the trottle, slide off the brake and feather on the clutch at the same time. Try it a couple of times, and you'll see it's pretty easy. No need to use the rear brake.

[redline]

All the advice above sounds good. I can only think of two issues that might not be covered:

1. Are you asking what to do if your handlebars are "turned" and you need to brake hard in the middle of the turn? If so, I'd say, straighten the bars and squeeeeeze (not grab/slam) the brakes. In this scenario, I'm hoping that it's clear in the direction you steer the bike when straightening. Otherwise, you can brake while turned, but you won't like it and the front tire can be overloaded (causing a fall).

2. If you have trouble flat-footing your bike (I do), you won't like to stop the bike on an incline. In that case, I'll emergency brake enough to avoid the accident, but try to keep the bike rolling and then drive around the problem. Again, if the bike is pointing straight (not always an option), it is easier to stop and start on a hill. Once stopped, use the back brake to keep from rolling too fast as you operate the clutch and gas to get moving again.

PS, I'm not a great rider, so decide for yourself if what I say is a good idea. Practice without traffic to see what works for you.

[easy_rider]

Originally posted by DoubleJayR6Ride
Hi.

I have a general question for some of the more expert riders (especially ones that ride every day in SF...i can't imagine that!)

If you were facing an uphil turn (L or R), and had to break all of a sudden, what would you do? With some of the Uphill turns in SF, i would think it would be quite difficutl.

Any pointers would be great. I would imagine you would try to upright you bike and break and that way you bike doesnt' have too much lean that will lead to maybe dropping you bike

I dont' know, any thoughts? Thanks guys.






nice avatar:cool

[kentuckyfried]

I almost ate it tonight...two times in succession. And I think it was related a little to this topic.

I've been trying to recall what happened b/c I was riding around in the dark. And at low speeds in dimly light parking lot (I was visiting the West Valley campus at night just for fun, to see where it was).

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/998/uphill14zc.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/2758/hill28dr.jpg

I think what DJr6 was trying to ask relates to the two cases above. In the first crude picture, the rider is moving up a hill, and stopping in the same direction as the slope.
The c.g. of the rider+bike are in line, it's relatively easy to make a quick stop at the very top of the hill, there's nothing pushing laterally to tip the motorcycle over. Even if the rider's off balance momentarily to either left or right, it's not too hard to establish a stable upright position standing on either two feet or the single left foot as "proper" practice by the MSF class (legs represented by the blue lines). For noobs who aren't quite used to using only the clutch to keep the bike from rolling backward, the rear brake can be engaged with the right foot until the rider's ready to move, and then the rear brake is gently released...

In the second picture, the rider has to suddenly stop while at an angle that's not in line with the slope. This is problematic for noobs, b/c the right foot can't be relied upon to engage the rear brake to prevent rolling backwards, it's busy keeping the bike from tipping over to the right now that gravity is directly trying to pull the bike sideways to the ground.

This relates to tonight's incident b/c...I don't think either situation #1 or #2 above are troublesome. Do what the other people said and get up to the flat plateau of the hill, then brake, with bars straight (even if you're rolling through a stop sign just a bit). Nothing bad will happen unless you do something retarded like me, and manage to grab too much brake while the handlebars of your bike are turned left or right. Even at low speeds like 5-10 mph, doing this sort of thing tends to create a "slingshot" effect as if somebody walked up and shoved on the bike from the side. There was nothing short of pure adrenaline that prevented me from dropping my SV ("OH SHIIIIT!!!!!!") each of the two times it suddenly occurred. Fortunately the SV is so much lighter than my old bike otherwise I would've definitely dropped it. :(

I've never had that happen before save for maybe once when I was first taking the MSF class. So it's definitely something I want to remember: Be careful not to brake too hard without first straightening out the bars, no matter the speed, and no matter how you're oriented relative to the a hill!). I guess, I haven't really noticed this b/c I've unconsciously always have been making stops with both tires in line, and never braking abruptly on a turn.

Anyhow...silly question of the evening...how do you guys get the bike balanced, when coming to a stop, so that you can get your left foot down without the bike trying to sway unstably to either side?

I seem to notice that I do this the best only when the bike comes to a smooth, slow, complete (0 mph) stop. At anything above (2mph, generally), if I try to put my foot down while the bike's slightly in motion, it's hard to stop on my left foot without the bike sometimes wanting fall over to the right.

[Rayman]

just remember, doesnt matter which direction ur going, ANTICIPATE a sudden stop everytime ur about to make a turn, meaning cover ur clutch and cover ur brake and of course approach these turns at a low speed. and if/when u do have to stop, straighten out as u come to a complete stop so u dont fall over.

[LakeTahoeRider]

If you can get a hold of a dirtbike I suggest learning how to do steep turns from a dirt bike (in the dirt of course).

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
I almost ate it tonight...two times in succession. And I think it was related a little to this topic.

I've been trying to recall what happened b/c I was riding around in the dark. And at low speeds in dimly light parking lot (I was visiting the West Valley campus at night just for fun, to see where it was).



This relates to tonight's incident b/c...I don't think either situation #1 or #2 above are troublesome. Do what the other people said and get up to the flat plateau of the hill, then brake, with bars straight (even if you're rolling through a stop sign just a bit). Nothing bad will happen unless you do something retarded like me, and manage to grab too much brake while the handlebars of your bike are turned left or right. Even at low speeds like 5-10 mph, doing this sort of thing tends to create a "slingshot" effect as if somebody walked up and shoved on the bike from the side. There was nothing short of pure adrenaline that prevented me from dropping my SV ("OH SHIIIIT!!!!!!") each of the two times it suddenly occurred. Fortunately the SV is so much lighter than my old bike otherwise I would've definitely dropped it. :(

I've never had that happen before save for maybe once when I was first taking the MSF class. So it's definitely something I want to remember: Be careful not to brake too hard without first straightening out the bars, no matter the speed, and no matter how you're oriented relative to the a hill!). I guess, I haven't really noticed this b/c I've unconsciously always have been making stops with both tires in line, and never braking abruptly on a turn.

Anyhow...silly question of the evening...how do you guys get the bike balanced, when coming to a stop, so that you can get your left foot down without the bike trying to sway unstably to either side?

I seem to notice that I do this the best only when the bike comes to a smooth, slow, complete (0 mph) stop. At anything above (2mph, generally), if I try to put my foot down while the bike's slightly in motion, it's hard to stop on my left foot without the bike sometimes wanting fall over to the right.

Once again...since no one else seems to be jumping in here--and I know only a few things about riding...so I'm gonna show off my amazing grasp of braking. :teeth

Anyway, you should practice braking, regular and often. I don't usually go to a parking lot for this. I *do* mentally and/or physcially go through the exercises and do it in light or no traffic conditions. You need to teach your muscles to unconsciously brake correctly. I'm not great in a panic situation, so I rely on my learned abilities--which means conditioning yourself for unanticipated situations. Controlled, steady pressure--never sudden grabs--should be used on the brakes. This can be done very quickly. Think about it like squeezing toothpaste out of tube. If you just grab the tube and squeeze as hard as you can--it spurts out, it's a mess and you don't end up getting all that much toothpaste out. However, if you grab it solidly, and squeeze firmly applying more pressure as you go, a lot of toothpaste will come out and it will happen quickly and cleanly. Few mechanical things respond well to sudden inputs. Also, learn to look for alternate routes quickly. If you don't have enough time to make the stop, you need to look for another place for your bike to be--because running a red light or launching into the back of a car simply isn't an option.

Slow speed stuff is actually more difficult. Forget countersteering. You need to not lean and instead physically muscle the bike around like a bicycle in these situations. If you find that putting your left foot down tends to make you want to push your bike over to the right at a stop, it might be that you're a little on the tall side. Put your foot out further from the bike or keep your knee more bent. It comes down to balance. I put my foot down merely as a convenience almost. The bike should balance almost on its own. If you were short like me, you would have learned this in a couple of days of riding. Work with the bike, not against it. They're quite easy to balance--you'll get a feel for it. I'm a real 'tard when it comes to stuff like this, but practice makes perfect. I honestly feel like it's taken me 2.5 years to get to the point where I feel somewhat comfortable riding in slow speed conditions and "balanced." I still have a long ways to go and avoid/dread many situations. Take it slowly and be safe about it. You feel a little weird trying something, then pull over, figure out your game plan and give it a shot. It beats getting in an accident with another vehicle or dropping your bike. ;)

[ramenchicken]

This isn't totally germaine to the topic at hand, but one thing I remember from my MSF for stopping and always having the bike tilt (slightly) to the left is to turn the bars slightly to the right (ie. press on the left bar) just as you hit zero mph. That'll cause the bike to try to initiate a left turn, which will drop the bike to the left side.

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by ramenchicken
This isn't totally germaine to the topic at hand, but one thing I remember from my MSF for stopping and always having the bike tilt (slightly) to the left is to turn the bars slightly to the right (ie. press on the left bar) just as you hit zero mph. That'll cause the bike to try to initiate a left turn, which will drop the bike to the left side.

good tip, actually--it's just like when you park. Tilt the bars to the left--makes the bike more stable. :thumbup