U-turn techniques...need some wisdom

[kentuckyfried]

I'm still quite the newbie, so you'll have to pardon my silly questions...

I remember reading in David Hough's "street stratgies" or elsewhere that I should be able to counter-steer through an entire u-turn if I lean aggressively enough, to the point that the handlebars can't be turned anymore...

Only problem is that I haven't tried it out on the street. I'm trying to put off dropping my bike (which is still, for the most part, in pristine, new condition), and figuring out the way I'm supposed to be doing these.

At what speed can a U-turn can be pulled safely without dropping it, if performed skillfully? Let's assume this's in an infinitely wide parking lot with no cars. The u-turn has a radius equal to what you would need to u-turn on a typical 2-way street, 2 lanes each way.

What about if I'm riding around in regular traffic? I was told in the MSF class that counter-steering doesn't work very well at low speeds (10-15 mph), which is exactly the sort of speed most people see when starting to move the bike from a complete stop and attempting a u-turn. So I've found that I tend to gingerly steer the motorcycle like a bicycle when doing the few u-turns I've done (just like in those low speed figure 8 maneuvers for the MSF class). It doesn't feel like I'm doing them properly, but at least I haven't stuck my feet onto the ground or dropped the bike *knock on wood*

Lastly...is there a way to do a burnout U-turn like in the movies? What's the recommended list of things to do to work up to such a fancy maneuver? e.g. how do I do it?

I can't even do it on my car, so it's highly unlikely I'll try it on a motorcycle. ;) But I like to know just for the sake of knowing.
Much like having bragging rights over knowing how to drift a car, but avoiding car accidents attempting to do it in public.

[movado_perfect]

some light advice if you're really having trouble with u-turns:

1- ride the clutch. besides being less jerky while modulating throttle, it's cheaper to put your foot down knowing you didn't let it grab enough than to drop because you pulled/closed the gas too abruptly.

2- slow down using the REAR brake. once again, not having the abrupt halt like the front brake allows you to control momentum smoother and keep the bike upright. a little too much front brake with the bars fully turned = a dropped bike, or one hell of a time trying to recover the falling mass.

3- don't try this with a passenger until you master the low-speed u-turn.

that is all folks.

[Enchanter]

Turn your head and look where you want to go. NEVER look at the ground. Look behind you, it's a u-turn afterall.

Counter weight (put more wieght on the peg on the outside of the turn) and counter lean (lean the bike into the turn, lean your body out of the turn).

Start practicing large turns and slowly work yourself to smaller turns.

[tuxumino]

Enchanter advice is good.

find a parking lot and practice doing u turns, circles and slow turns.

practice going as slow as you can and at a normal speed.

[kentuckyfried]

This sounds alot like the MSF class...am I countersteering at any point?


Originally posted by Enchanter
Turn your head and look where you want to go. NEVER look at the ground. Look behind you, it's a u-turn afterall.

Counter weight (put more wieght on the peg on the outside of the turn) and counter lean (lean the bike into the turn, lean your body out of the turn).

Start practicing large turns and slowly work yourself to smaller turns.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
This sounds alot like the MSF class...am I countersteering at any point?

It really doesn't matter. If you are concentrating on that aspect, you are likely overthinking the task and that contrubutes to the lack of success.

Start big and work your way down. If you rode to a parking lot to practice, then you have the skills required to control the direction of the motorcycle in a u-turn.

FYI: with the correct technique an SV650 can do the MSF u-turn exercise with room to spare.

[kentuckyfried]

^ The main point I was trying to get clarified was how fast, and how tight, I should be able to pull these sorts of turns as a "skilled" rider as opposed to a newbie, under two distinct situations: starting from a complete stop, and while in motion. I would know by watching other people on the street, but it's one of those things that I never used to pay attention to, as a driver. ;)



Originally posted by Enchanter
It really doesn't matter. If you are concentrating on that aspect, you are likely overthinking the task and that contrubutes to the lack of success.

Start big and work your way down. If you rode to a parking lot to practice, then you have the skills required to control the direction of the motorcycle in a u-turn.

FYI: with the correct technique an SV650 can do the MSF u-turn exercise with room to spare.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
^ The main point I was trying to get clarified was how fast, and how tight, I should be able to pull these sorts of turns as a "skilled" rider as opposed to a newbie, under two distinct situations: starting from a complete stop, and while in motion. I would know by watching other people on the street, but it's one of those things that I never used to pay attention to, as a driver. ;)
Ok, let's break it down then:
What makes a rider skilled vs. newbie? I know riders that have ridden for 10 years that cannot execute a u-turn (in less than 50ft) if their life depended on it. Other riders I know are comfortable (and skilled) at u-turns with the handebars at 99% of full lock and the bike at a OMG :wow lean angle from a stop. I know riders that can ride so slow doing a u-turn that I could eat a full dinner and return to find them only halfway done with the turn.

Then there are the 'skilled' riders at Alice's/Starbucks/4-corners that ride fast as hell, but get off their bike and walk it to turn around in a parking lot. Skill is a relative term. If you think you want or need more skill, then go get some. It's up to you. Practice and the skill will come. For me, I consider riders 'newbie' if they have less than a year and less than 7K miles. But that's only my opinion. What's your idea of a Newbie? A skilled rider?

If you feel that you could be better at it, then you likely could be. If you notice a skill that you want to improve, then it is highly likely that you CAN improve on it.

Practical application: You should be able to make a u-turn on the street from the far right side of your starting lane, to the far right side of the lane in your intended direction. We've all seen riders making a u-turn and it takes a whole 3 lanes and the shoulder and it still looks like they are running out of room. :laughing

[a7x]

THe main thing that helped me learn tight u turns is looking all the way behind you. Not exagerating at all, before you turn look all the way around. Also, I drag the rear brake throughout the turn so that any throttle movements won't be so choppy. I try to avoid using the clutch, as you need to keep on the throttle to keep the bike from just falling over.

[imagyn]

do what i do....just make right turns until you go around the block and just hang a left, where you were originally going to make the u-turn......j/k like they say...it takes sometime and skills to get use to....just keep practicing....

[paulo57509]

Go down to your nearest Barnes & Noble, Borders, etc. and locate the motorcycle book section.

Fine a copy of Total Control, by Lee Parks. Thumb over to Chapter 13 - Low Speed U-Turns. This is good stuff.

I bought a copy, but if you have a photographic memory you can just read it while pretending to browse.

IIRC, practice by putting your weight on the outside of the turn and lean the bike over, look down and behind you (I think Parks mentions look behind you at the ground). If you feel like you're going to fall over, throttle up and move off in a straight line.

There's some more stuff in there like dragging the rear brake while keeping a steady throttle to modulate speed, etc.

There's a photo of a guy making a u-turn on a Gold Wing. The rider's inside foot is completely off the inside foot peg.....that's how far over he is on the outside of the turn.

I'm still practicing.

[paroxysm]

thinking that you need to improve is the first step. I have to pull a U-Turn every day to get to my house, and I use just enough throttle to keep the bike moving, and feathering the clutch. One thing I DON'T like doing is starting in the far right, because many cars a) clip the turn or b) just plain suck at driving and will get close enough to hit you. One thing my dad always told me when driving my car was "don't stop [or slow down to a near stop] in the middle of a turn" (U turn, going into a parking lot, etc...) because people expect you to take that turn at the entrance speed you selected. If you slow down mid-turn they will hit you. If you look at them wrong, they will hit you. If you ride a motorcycle, they will hit you :)

[kentuckyfried]

sweet...thanks. I've had that book on order for the past month already on Amazon.


Originally posted by paulo57509
Go down to your nearest Barnes & Noble, Borders, etc. and locate the motorcycle book section.

Fine a copy of Total Control, by Lee Parks. Thumb over to Chapter 13 - Low Speed U-Turns. This is good stuff.

I bought a copy, but if you have a photographic memory you can just read it while pretending to browse.

IIRC, practice by putting your weight on the outside of the turn and lean the bike over, look down and behind you (I think Parks mentions look behind you at the ground). If you feel like you're going to fall over, throttle up and move off in a straight line.

There's some more stuff in there like dragging the rear brake while keeping a steady throttle to modulate speed, etc.

There's a photo of a guy making a u-turn on a Gold Wing. The rider's inside foot is completely off the inside foot peg.....that's how far over he is on the outside of the turn.

I'm still practicing.

[kentuckyfried]

Gee, thanks for those wonderful words of hope, hahaha.

I hardly ever have to do a u-turn, so naturally, I'm still quite bad at them. Practice time's been scarce, but that should hopefully fix itself soon.


Originally posted by paroxysm
If you slow down mid-turn they will hit you. If you look at them wrong, they will hit you. If you ride a motorcycle, they will hit you :)

[mhallsj]

Nobody said anything about the "movie burnout"... haha.. and probably for a good reason.

I did a "semi-movie-worthy-u-turn-burnout" once. I wanted to get the burnout coming OUT of the turn, and ended up riding it through the turn.

I wouldn't attempt it again since it actually scared the crap out of me. Burnouts are better in a straight line!! haha

-- M

[kentuckyfried]

lol...if I even tried, the SV would probably end up on my left leg. Ppl must be terrified that I'll try something retarded.

It's kinda of like how there's about a billion threads on wheelies...I'm curious to know how they're done...but no way am I going to attempt on a new bike. =P



Originally posted by mhallsj
Nobody said anything about the "movie burnout"... haha.. and probably for a good reason.

I did a "semi-movie-worthy-u-turn-burnout" once. I wanted to get the burnout coming OUT of the turn, and ended up riding it through the turn.

I wouldn't attempt it again since it actually scared the crap out of me. Burnouts are better in a straight line!! haha

-- M

[nuton2wheels]

U-turns are easy, you just have to become comfortable with the bike.

1.) Always look behind you, not at the ground or the reference point you initially chose before starting the u-turn

2.) Shift yourself (in the saddle) to the side of the bike opposite the turn (i.e. left u-turn, shift to right side, weight right peg)

3.) If you have a smooth, RC211V inspired Honda 4 cylinder inline engine :laughing, depress rear brake pedal and increase throttle to about 1/10th of a turn to get the engine revs up prior to initiating u-turn. The extra engine momentum seems to create a sort of gyroscopic effect that stabilizes the bike during low speed maneuvers. However, if you feel comfortable enough or the turn isn't that tight, you don't HAVE to do this.

4.) Maintain a very light grip on the bars. Support your upper body with your lower back muscles. Don't deathgrip the bars or tense up any muscles in anticipation of "the worst."

5.) Don't be afraid to turn the bars to full lock! Provided you sustain an adequate speed, stay focused on where you want the bike to be (i.e. behind you), support your upper body with your lower back, and weight the opposite side of the bike, you will be fine.

Keep in mind that the skill of u-turning takes some time to get acquainted with. Don't expect to pull smooth u-turns consistently after day one. The width of your u-turn should be about equal to the length of an average (cage) parking spot.

[kentuckyfried]

Am I turning full lock in the direction of my turn? That's what it looks like from the photos in the Total Control book by Lee Parks. e.g. I am NOT countersteering when performing u-turns?



5.) Don't be afraid to turn the bars to full lock! Provided you sustain an adequate speed, stay focused on where you want the bike to be (i.e. behind you), support your upper body with your lower back, and weight the opposite side of the bike, you will be fine.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
Am I turning full lock in the direction of my turn? That's what it looks like from the photos in the Total Control book by Lee Parks. e.g. I am NOT countersteering when performing u-turns?

Countersteering is used when initiating a turn (regardless of speed). It does not mean that the front wheel is pointed in the opposite direction throughout the entire turn. Sometimes it might be, sometimes in might not. At low speeds, once the turn is initiated (by a press on the bar), the front wheel will likely then point 'into' the turn.

It seems as though you may be over-thinking this. The most difficult part of a u-turn (for newer riders) is the head turn and not looking at the ground. How to use the handlebars to turn the wheel doesn't sound like the problem you are having. It sounds like you need to work on 'where' you are looking and counter leaning/counter balancing, like was taught in the MSF course.

Something else to think about:

Motorcyclists tend to use the term 'countersteering' two different ways. Some refer to countersteering as the front tire pointing in the opposite direction of the intended path of travel, while others refer to countersteering as the action of pressing on the bars.

Many people deny they countersteer because they have never actually seen the front wheel of their motorcycle pointed in the opposite direction. Others deny countersteering happens at speeds below 5-10mph because the do not feel it. At low speeds the action of countersteering takes so little effort, over a VERY short period of time. This is why many people say that it doesn't work at low speeds, when it really does.

[redline]

Fore people who've already been riding, I'd recommend the MSF Experienced Rider course. They have a whole section on U-Turns. They gave me a bunch of feedback on what I need to do to make them better. They cover a lot of other stuff, too, of course.

[dissolvedego]

i'm no expert, but from what i've observed it seems a low-speed u-turn can be taken a couple ways.

first is to steer (not counter-steer) the direction you want to go, and counter-LEAN, to keep the bike balanced.

second, and much more impressive, is to lean the bike at low speed. a slight bit of counter-steering may be involved, but for the most part you're going slow enough that you can really just lean, there isn't enough gyroscopic effect at 0-5mph to require counter-steering.

this also works better with a powerful bike. if you have an old small engine bike you'd probably want to stick to the first method. but modern sportbikes are powerful enough that if you know what you are doing, you can literally lean the bike at a 45 degree angle FROM A STOP, and accelerate with enough torque to do a lightning fast U-turn AND get the bike back up before you kiss the pavement.

i've never done it like that, but i've seen videos.

generally speaking though, with the power of modern sportbikes and some experience, counter-leaning is almost never necessary. gyroscopic force and the power of the bike alone can keep you from tipping over, even in the slowest, tightest U-turns, if you know what you're doing.

[Sidewalk]

I thought this was pretty well covered in the MSF course? I had to practice this plenty, low speed maneuvers weaving through cones and doing U-turns.

Repeated several times already, but...

Use a little throttle and hold it steady, then use your rear brake and clutch (mostly the rear brake) to control your speed. Practice doing this in a straight line first, don't worry about doing turns. Once you have that down, then go to an empty parking lot and practice initiating a turn while following the line of a parking space, you should be able to make a full turn without crossing over the line that marks the far edge of the next spot over. That is about 10'.

Once you can do that, practice the other way. You can also practice using a circle at the local DMV office, practice doing circles, staying in the lines over and over again, that is what that part of the test is there for I am sure.

Eventually you should be able to do a U-turn, either direction, barely even moving, with the steering at full lock. After that if you want you can add on additional lean and such, but I can't do that very well, and even still, it depends on the bike I am on.

[kentuckyfried]

Hmmm...I've been meaning to reply to this one for a few weeks now.

I was on my way to the Mt. View Century Theater when I saw a guy on a motorcycle...not sure what it was, but in the blink of an eye, he was able to whip around and do a quick 180. Not a moment of hesitation. It was like the guy turned on a dime.
Is this something that can only be done on a sportbike?

We didn't do any u-turns in class...well, let me qualify that...just low-speed S-curves, nothing fancy. Since the turns were so low-speed, "countersteering" was emphasized as being not in effect and that turning the motorcycle in this situation is akin to turning a pedal-driven bike.

I need a beater bike to try this stuff out on, along with wheelies. :teeth

[masameet]

If you did Figure 8's in your MSF class, then you made two U-turns each time. They were also part of the skills evaluation at the end of the class. I found it to be a fun exercise, even as my instructor kept yelling at me to keep turning my head into the turn. For me, the Figure 8 was a real confidence builder.

And I bet that guy looked effortless because he probably practiced a gazillion times at low speed, keeping his head continuously looking over his shoulder into the turn, his handlebars seemingly locked against the gas tank, and his throttle steady until he could do it in his sleep. When he got the turn right in his muscle memory, he kept adding speed until he found the right fast speed he could turn at comfortably.

One of my MSF instructors said riding a motorcycle is more of a right brain activity. I liked that notion. Because as a female, I use both sides of my brain but I also tend to be highly intuitive and creative-artistic. And creative-artistic types tend to be right-brain people. Once I understood that riding is more of a feeling activity, I stopped thinking so much and just did it. Or went with the flow, to use another phrase.

Come on, kf! Go with the flow and you'll be able to do it.

[Apollo]

Enchanter, in general with the R1, do you countersteer and counterweight the whole U-turn? Or do you initiate the lean and then turn in the direction of the u-turn with counterweight?

I can use the "turn into the u-turn" method with the 250 nighthawk, but I'm questioning myself as to which is the better method for the 636 with it's smaller lock to lock.

I mean, I'm still not able to tighten the u-turn with either method on the 636. I'm taking maybe 3 lanes width, edge to edge with either method. Honestly, I'm a little worried about using the wrong technique and dumping the bike. It's like for the nighthawk, I find I can get it tightest with the turn into the turn after initiating lean. But the 636 I'm a bit lost.

[bmer97]

www.ridelikeapro.com (http://www.ridelikeapro.com)

takes all the nonsense out of slow riding techniques. Excellent progressive instruction DVD, lots of great tips. Produced by motorcycle policeman.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Apollo
Enchanter, in general with the R1, do you countersteer and counterweight the whole U-turn? Or do you initiate the lean and then turn in the direction of the u-turn with counterweight?
Don't worry about the whole countersteering thing. It is one more thing to think about when in reality, you will give input to the bars intuitively.

For me, I look WAAAAY over my shoulder, initiate the lean and start weighting the outside peg. Once I'm into the turn, if I feel that I need to make a tighter/smaller turn, I will then counterlean.

Keep practicing, and you will pick it up. The most common problem(s) people make are, a) looking at the ground, and b) going too slowly (loosing balance). If you live near an MSF facility, go there and watch them ride/coach the U-turns. You might pick up some useful information.

[Apollo]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Don't worry about the whole countersteering thing. It is one more thing to think about when in reality, you will give input to the bars intuitively.


Sorry Enchanter. More clarification questions. :teeth

But yeah. I understand the "keep it simple" way, but I still feel I need a bit more info.

So I take it with the method you use, you are usually in a close to neutral steering position and going by feel of the bike as to whether or not you turn in or countersteer subconsciously? And that you do not ever find yourself in a "full-to-the-lock turn into the direction of the u turn" with a sportbike?

Just wanting to clarify this, as it's with full-to-the-lock in the direction of the turn that I'm getting the tightest turn out of the 250's tires. It's like I just prepare for it, initiate lean, and commit with cranking it as far as the steering will go, and clutch and rearbrake the bike through.

So basically, I just want to clarify whether or not you're ever at or close to full lock when you make the tightest u-turn possible with a sportbike?

Watching slalom videos, the riders are always turning into the turn after lean, often close to lock, but they also seem to have large lean angles. The large lean angle makes me a little worried in wet or low traction conditions. Just wondering what the the options are. It's like most people go with "it'll happen naturally" but it feels like I'm caught between two methods, all out lock or lean it more.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Apollo
So basically, I just want to clarify whether or not you're ever at or close to full lock when you make the tightest u-turn possible with a sportbike?
If I'm trying to make the tightest turn possible, then I'm going to damn close to full lock on any motorcycle. Once at full lock, it can be difficult to control the motorcycles lean with countersteering. So I try to avoid going to full lock. I can do this by leaning the bike more, or counter-weighting more, or counter-leaning more...yada, yada, yada.

I get the impression that you and I have a slightly different idea as to what counter-steering is and when it's used. Here is a VERY BASIC definition of how I view counter-steering: It is the front tire pointing opposite the desired direction of travel to initiate the change of direction. Once the motorcycle begins to change direction, the front wheel may indeed actually visibly point in the desired direction of the turn. This initial counter-steer can be so subtle that most riders deny that they do it at low speeds. I disagree. I believe that it happens at all speeds. So when you ask me if I counter-steer in u-turns, I'm going to say 'yes'.

[Apollo]

Ok. Thanks Enchanter. Gotcha. Now I just have to practice more.

And I believe we have the same definitiion of countersteering. I understand it happens in the initial lean no matter what, but I was just wondering what you do immediately following the lean.

I've been thoroughly convinced of the initial lean countersteering through my own little experiments with one handed riding (other hand holding the bar but too loose to affect anything) at varying speeds. Never was the "push in the direction you want to go in" so visible.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Apollo
it feels like I'm caught between two methods, all out lock or lean it more.

Why do you view them as separate techniques? Turning a motorcycle requires some sort of balance between lean angle / speed / handlebar movement. They interact with each other all of the time.

The 250 has more steering lock available so you can get a u-turn done without much lean angle. Your 600 has less steering lock so it's going to require more lean. It sounds like you are just a tad bit nervous about bending a heavier bike (than you are used to) into a slow speed turn.

There is no 1 solution to this.

[Apollo]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Why do you view them as separate techniques? Turning a motorcycle requires some sort of balance between lean angle / speed / handlebar movement. They interact with each other all of the time.

The 250 has more steering lock available so you can get a u-turn done without much lean angle. Your 600 has less steering lock so it's going to require more lean. It sounds like you are just a tad bit nervous about bending a heavier bike (than you are used to) into a slow speed turn.

There is no 1 solution to this.

Yeah, I'm honestly nervous about dropping the 636. :cry The low speed/ tight turn stuff took me a while to finally feel completely comfortable with on the 250, and now it feels like I'm relearning it with the 636 weight and steering lock.

I was seeing it as more of a either
1) all out lock and less lean angle relatively or
2) less steering and more lean angle relatively

It's like when I'm riding around; I can get the bike to stay more upright if I just steer into the turn after the initial countersteer initiated lean, or I can still make the turn (provided the turn angle isn't great) if I lean it lower and maintain a close to neutral steering, countersteering minutely throughout most of the corner and not just in the initial lean. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I was really jsut wondering which method to practice for the u-turn as the 636 just exudes a different feeling than the 250.

Thanks for clarifying your technique for u-turns. Now, it's more practice time for me.

Thanks again Enchanter.