Hit the brakes!

[tsyoung]

I had to come to a really quick stop yesterday in Berkeley. A lady in a Jeep spaced out for a minute and rolled her car into the intersection. Then she realized that her light was still red and tried to stop. The jeep stopped right in the intersection blocking my lane. I had put on the brakes quickly and then swerve suddenly. Thankfully there was no one else in the lane next to me and I avoided being hit by the jeep.

Last weekend I was practicing quick stops everywhere I was riding, just to get a better understanding of how my bike feels when it stops hard. I am so glad that I was practicing that instead of just trying to get someplace faster.

[VroomVroomVroom]

being able to stop quickly very improtant indeed.... good on 'ya for practicing it........ the swerve could have been very dangerous.... try and be aware of your surroundings better........ when you panick stop or practice, try and use the rear brake symultaneously with the front, learn to modulate it, if the front locks you can use the rear brake to slide out and continue scrubbing speed (or laying it down on purpose to avoid imprending impacts)

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by VroomVroomVroom
if the front locks you can use the rear brake to slide out and continue scrubbing speed

I don't understand what you mean in this statement.

Originally posted by VroomVroomVroom
(or laying it down on purpose to avoid impending impacts)

That may work for you, but not for me. First off, the bike will decellerate much more quickly while using the brakes than it ever will using the engine case, bodywork, or footpegs. Second, once 'layed down', the rider is unable to control the direction of the motorcycle. How do you avoid something at that point?

TO recap:
When a motorcycle is on it's tires, the rider has control of it's speed and direction. Once the motorcycle is on it's side, the rider is now a victim and along for the ride.

[afm199]

The only time I can think of that I would deliberately lay a bike down is a time when the options for braking had disappeared, such as losing the brakes coming into a corner or going into the dirt toward a berm or tire wall. Otherwise, no.

[spideyfive-o]

from what i've learned from MSF class. it's better to swerve then brake. rather than braking (might cause the tires to lock) and then swerve.

spidey

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by spideyfive-o
from what i've learned from MSF class. it's better to swerve then brake. rather than braking (might cause the tires to lock) and then swerve.

spidey

I don't understand the difference.

As far as I can tell, the MSF teaches to separate the braking and the swerving. I can't find anything that indicates they say to do one before or after the other.

[tsyoung]

Brake, swerve- I did both in succesion. At first, I thought the jeep was going to just run the red light; but she ended up stopping right in front of me. I used both brakes until I thought the back tire was going slip. I had slowed down enough that swerving around the front of the jeep was OK.

The braking exercise I was practicing was simply braking hard at a stop sign. Then I would guess how short the distance was and try to reduce it. I mainly wanted to get a better understanding of how my bike feels when stopping hard. If I can brake hard at 35 mph, can I do it at 70?

[kxmike]

Another option not mentioned, is to swerve and accellerate. I've used this method many times to avoid idiots on the road and it's sometimes safer than trying to brake. Braking can be done while swerving but only moderate braking and it's an advanced technique. In my opinion, for newer riders, it's best to practice braking hard in a straight line then swerving if necessary (as tsyoung apparently did). Swerving before braking would shorten the braking zone making it more difficult for the rider to slow safely.

[mynx]

Originally posted by kxmike
Another option not mentioned, is to swerve and accellerate. .

This is a method often used by race car drivers, as well. It is most useful when a vehicle pulls out in front of you. To avoid a t-bone situation, you accelerate around the rear of the vehicle as you never know where the front of the vehicle may go.

[LS1Bandit]

Well, I really don't know much from personal experience - I just started riding a couple weeks ago.

But last night I was reading through the FAQ's from the stickies in this forum and saw this, which seems to be relevant to this discussion:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP200.html

-Dave

P.S. Hey look! My first post. :cool

[280SQUAGGLER]

always practice braking and swerving .... it becomes second nature and you dont have to think about , just do it.... good for you to practice ..i find many people dont practice these skills and then they end up writing some accident thread. .... braking and accelerating is like saying i couldnt stop it time ...practice stopping .

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by LS1Bandit
Well, I really don't know much from personal experience - I just started riding a couple weeks ago.

But last night I was reading through the FAQ's from the stickies in this forum and saw this, which seems to be relevant to this discussion:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP200.html

-Dave

P.S. Hey look! My first post. :cool

Welcome to BARF.

I've been to that website more than once, but this is the first time I've read that article. Holy crap does that guy think highly of himself! The specific article you linked us to has some good info in it. But I will tell you from experience that at least these few lines are crap:

"So why is it that so many people believe that they have a choice after they begin a PANIC STOP? Do you? Could you, for example, decide after you have started a PANIC STOP that despite how quickly you are slowing down you are still going to hit that 18-wheeler so it's time to 'change your mind', let go of the binders (so that you are not both stopping and swerving at the same time) and begin a PANIC SWERVE? Well, of course you can decide to do that but not without insuring a crash. YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR MIND and have a better result if you begin a PANIC STOP! (Commitment is GOOD.)

Let me be perfectly clear about this. If a threat presents itself you have a very brief moment (less than 1 second) to recognize it and to decide what to do about it. Then, in even less time, you react (move your fingers and begin squeezing the brake lever or apply counter-steering input). And if you are leaned over in a turn when that threat appeared and have decided to brake then you MUST FIRST use counter-steering input to stand your bike vertical and moving in a straight line. In other words, if you have elected to do a panic stop you have ALREADY consumed TIME and there is no more of that precious reality to squander - what there is left of it MUST BE USED in reducing your speed!!!

So when you are in the middle of a PANIC STOP your bike is already vertical and you are attempting to maximize that deceleration rate without exceeding the traction your tires provide. You cannot be 'noticing' things like alternate escape routes, or the color of that 18-wheeler you are heading toward, or whether or not there is a car behind you and wondering if it will stop as quickly as you are. Your attention MUST be focused on maximizing your deceleration rate and remaining in control of the bike. ALL THE REST OF REALITY IS NO LONGER RELEVANT!

That means that if while panic stopping your mind has wandered into the consideration of alternate choice evaluations (such as whether or not you should abandon the PANIC STOP in favor of a PANIC SWERVE) you are MIS-FOCUSED and not paying enough attention to controlling your motorcycle."

More than once I have started maximum braking to avoid a crash, and then had the situation around me change. This change exposed an escape route that wasn't there initially. In these two times, I was damn sure I didn't have space to stop. So I released the brakes and sent my bike through the escape route.

The dude who wrote that article is pretty confidant in himself. So much so that he formulates a 'no win' situation (18 wheeler) to prove his point.

The crap in that article makes me want to go back and read the other articles to see just what crap I missed the first time.

[rider96]

i noticed that LS1bandit said he only had a couple of weeks riding experience. in my opinion some good "race" school instruction might be a good idea. there is not much difference between going into turn 2 at laguna and a panic stop on the street (other than at least at the track it was by choice). there are many to chose from. Freddie Spencer's and Pridmore's schools along with a bunch of others including American Supercamp which does entire schools for street riders for just such occasions. (I'm biased on that one, talk to others for their opinions). I know, or at least think, that i'm a safer street rider now because or "race" training. you never know when you gotta trail in all the way on the brakes!

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by rider96
i noticed that LS1bandit said he only had a couple of weeks riding experience. in my opinion some good "race" school instruction might be a good idea. there is not much difference between going into turn 2 at laguna and a panic stop on the street (other than at least at the track it was by choice). there are many to chose from. Freddie Spencer's and Pridmore's schools along with a bunch of others including American Supercamp which does entire schools for street riders for just such occasions. (I'm biased on that one, talk to others for their opinions). I know, or at least think, that i'm a safer street rider now because or "race" training. you never know when you gotta trail in all the way on the brakes!

I'm going to have to disagree with sending someone with a few weeks of riding experience to the track. For a total newbie there is a whole lot of difference between a panic stop from 30-40mph and approaching T2 at 'Seca at well over the 'ton'.

Riding at the track can help someone operate their motorcycle better, but it doesn't really make them a better street rider. (there are a ton of threads here addressing that. a search will locate them)

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Enchanter
I'm going to have to disagree with sending someone with a few weeks of riding experience to the track.

Likewise. Actually, when do you think a good time to take the Experienced Rider Course would be? I haven't actually taken it - do they spent a fair amount of time training students to handle things like panic stops?

[rider96]

just to clarify, i wasn't trying to say anything even remotely advanced that would get 'em in deep over their head. but, i know there are alot of situations for training that can help you gain alot experience in bike control. i just think looking into training that deals with getting a bike stopped is a good option for some people. check out americansupercamp.com don't want to hurt anyone.

[tsyoung]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
Likewise. Actually, when do you think a good time to take the Experienced Rider Course would be? I haven't actually taken it - do they spent a fair amount of time training students to handle things like panic stops?

The guidelines for the Experienced rider course say at least 3000 miles in the saddle.

[LS1Bandit]

Originally posted by tsyoung
The guidelines for the Experienced rider course say at least 3000 miles in the saddle.

That's interesting. I had been planning on taking that course fairly soon, just to make sure I was learning everything the "right way" (I hate having to relearn things I learned and/or practiced the wrong way).

The MSF site says: "For experienced riders that possess basic skills. No time or mileage prerequisite." So I figured I could take it soon after the MSF Basic Rider, since presumably I had "basic skills" after that.

Guess I need to get some more time before I do that. Though I've done 600 miles in the last 2 weeks, so maybe it's not too far down the road. :)