Looking to get more practice on a motorcycle

[ConfusedGeek]

Hi there,

I just came back from an MSF class.

I didnt do so well on the skills portion.
I was asked to leave 4 hours after training began.

I did pass the written test however.
I did get a nifty paper so I can come back to retest on the MSF.

A little background info. Here before I go on asking questions.

I havent written a bicycle since I was a teenager. I do have my drivers license. I drive an automatic car. Of course, I am enthusiastic about learning how to drive a bike. I'm in my early 30's.

Anyways, back to the point, during my MSF class. I was having a lot of trouble trying to keep my bike moving. It kept stalling on me.

Obviously, Im not ready to ride a bike if it keeps stalling on me. And I believe its because of my ability not being able to handle the clutch, left foot gear shifter, and the "friction zone".

I can re-attend the MSF class when they have another free spot open.
However, I dont feel confident enough to pass the MSF class unless I get more practice learning how to shift gears properly. And in the worst case scenario, If I fail again (which is likely), i'm going to have to pay an extra $235 dollars to re-take it.

This was my first go at practicing with a clutch and a motorcycle. It was pretty fun, although really makes the left hand tired. Especially riding for 4 hours.

I'm looking to find ways to practice on a motorcycle before re-attended the MSF class. I think what I can do is go to the DMV, and get my motorcycle permit for practicing on a bike.

The problem is finding a motorcycle I can use to practice driving. The MSF course, which is a really nice way to learn how to ride a motorcycle, costs
a lot of money to retake. Taking the basic training class twice runs close to $500 dollars, which is 1/6 of a new Ninja 250. While Im all for being safe and all, its too just too much money.

I think I have a few options here before retaking the skills/driving test of the MSF course.

Here are some thoughts:

1) get motorcycle's permit, get a cheap bike, practice more, re-take msf course

2) get a motorcycle's permit, rent a bike, re-take msf course

Question here is:

Is there a place here in the bay area that rents out motorcycles or a good place to buy low powered motorcycles?

Thanks in advance,
- ConfusedGeek

[dissolvedego]

just check craigslist for a used 250.

for example-
http://www.craigslist.org/sby/mcy/168001558.html

you'll want a good beginners bike anyways, at least for a little while... something that is not only smaller in displacement but also cheap/old enough that you can afford to drop it a few times.

and if you're checking out older bikes (like 80s-era) consider something in the 400-600cc range. new sportbikes are insanely powerful... a new 600 could easily outperform a decade old 1200. just something to keep in mind.

[Sidewalk]

If you have a friend with a stick shift car that would be a good safe way to practice clutching. If you can get up here to Novato between now and Wednesday (after 4 PM because of work) I can let you practice all you want on the Blast, and I will help you out.

[dissolvedego]

oh, and are you really having that much trouble with the clutch? or is it the multi-tasking (balancing the bike, shifting, throttle, etc.) that throws you off?

you just need to find the friction zone (you probably know that already). in the mean time you can play it safe by pulling the clutch all the way in and revving the engine before you even begin to release it.

the only way to kill the bike is to drop the clutch with the bike in gear and not enough throttle. so don't fear the throttle! and when you're revving, SLOWLY and gently release the clutch lever. this way if you start to kill it you will feel it before it's too late, and either give it more throttle or pull the clutch back in to correct it.

good luck!

[plumber]

Get a dirt bike first. You seem to be challenged. It's best to learn basic operation on the dirt. The street is an unforgiving environment.

[Sidewalk]

Dual sports are fun :D

[dissolvedego]

scooters are also awesome for learning the basics (not shifting, but riding a motorized 2-wheel vehicle). i rode a 50cc yamaha zuma scooter for a few months prior to MSF and it was a breeze.

[rumpofsteelskin]

I congratulate you on your perseverence. :thumbup Keep trying. Consider Sidewalk's offer to let you ride the Blast. Also, you might want to recheck your MSF paperwork - I dimly recall a clause indicating that riding portion do-overs were less expensive than taking the whole course again. I may be wrong, though. Let me know.

Most importantly, don't let this experience be a confidence-killer. 2 people were asked to leave the riding portion of my MSF course, so it's hardly an uncommon experience.

[ConfusedGeek]

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

I wish I could make it to Novato,
but i usually work from 8 am to 8 pm.
Thank you for the offer though.
The only time I can practice a bike is on the weekends with my work schedule.

It sure does bum me out that I didnt pass the MSF but its the way it goes. I just have to find another way to do this.

Finding a cheap bike + insurance + motorcycle permit, just takes more time and money at this point. But its the only option there is.

This option is probably cheaper in the long run rather that continously taking the MSF. 5.5 hours on a bike in one day is not enough time for me to grasp the details of riding a bike.

Dont have any friends with bikes. So, Im out of luck there.

I tried looking online or in the yellow pages for a different instructional course like the MSF but there isnt any.
And there isnt an professional course (in the yellow pages, at least) that teaches motorcycle rider on a 1 on 1 basis.

Anyways, thanks for the links and info. It sure did help a lot and put things into perspective. I'll see what I can keep doing so I can eventually get that M1 license. But if you have anymore advice, as always feel free to comment.

Thanks again.

- ConfusedGeek

[Sidewalk]

There is a 1 on 1 option, but it isn'ty cheap. I will see if I can find the phone number again.

[Sidewalk]

I think this is the one I used years ago:

http://www.mctraining.com/

But it wasn't cheap. But I felt like I had cash to burn because I just got my reenlistement bonus, doh!

[Enchanter]

Many of the people/organizations that provide private instruction are unable or unwilling to get certified as an MSF facility. The 2 people in the Bay Area that I am aware of are known as 'loose cannons' that don't play well with others.

You should also make sure that their insurance covers your training. They will try to tell you that your insurance will cover you. It might, but it might not. I've seen some really bad injuries in training classes (compound fracture of the femur, tibula, humerous, radius....etc.). It would suck to get injured because they were teaching you what they thought was right, and it turns out it wasn't.

Yes I know I'm sort of biased, but I truthfully wouldn't send my enemy to the Bay Area people that provide private instruction. They are scarey!

[sinncere]

First up, getting the friction-zone down pat is absolutely crucial. I took my MSF a couple of weeks ago, causeI really needed the confidence to ride, and I wasn't consistent in taking off from a stop. Once I learned about the friction-zone and was able to use it on purpose, the confidence and everything else fell into place. So definitely get that concept down. I understand it may not be easy, but it will be such a big leap for you once you get it.

Now if you can, you definitely should find a decent working bike to practice on. Insurance shouldn't be a problem even if you have no experience, especially if you've got a bike with a small displacement. Of course, all you'd really need is liability coverage, so that should cheapen the rates even more. Check out Pacific Specialty Insurance at Menlo Park, that's where I got my insurance and believe me, it's cheap as heck. Your riding permit is not that hard to get too. Just pass the written exam at DMV, which should be easy enough (if you're not certain, read the Rider's handbook from DMV's website to get yourself settled), pay the small fee (under $20, I think), and you're set to ride as long as you want in the daylight, and off the freeways.

And I think rumpofsteelskin is right about the cost of retaking the riding portion of MSF. I think your second chance is a freebie if my memory serves me right, and then it's full price again if you still don't pass it by then.

Get the friction-zone done, trust me. If you want to rent or borrow someone's bike, make full use of it to learn the friction-zone. If you can find another rider who knows how to use the friction-zone, don't be shy about asking them to supervise you, I'm sure they'd be glad to help.

Good luck man.

[Noe_Ninja]

Welcome to :bigbarf.

Maybe your problem has to do with an inability to follow instructions? You might want to go introduce yourself in the Newbies (Introduce yourself here before you post elsewhere!) section.

Seriously though, those MSF bikes get thrashed by the students. The first one I used (in Alameda) had a bum clutch lever, so I had to switch. Maybe finding a ride with a functioning clutch is all you need?

Best of luck.

[Enchanter]

Oh, I forgot to mention that it has been my experience that most people pass the class the second time around (without practicing on another motorcycle). It is pretty rare that someone fails twice. In Mountain View, that happens less than 1% of the time.

[mine_ghames]

**** Posted by Enchanter
Oh, I forgot to mention that it has been my experience that most people pass the class the second time around (without practicing on another motorcycle). It is pretty rare that someone fails twice. In Mountain View, that happens less than 1% of the time.
************

I was one of the 1%. I took the MSF course and failed miserably 3 times on the actual riding test. I’ve never ridden a motorcycle in my life till 2002. CC Rider let me took the course again (Range 2 and 3) to get more practice. While having the permit, I had a Ninja 600ZXE as my first bike. Practice, practice is the key. I passed that course on my 4th try. I never gave up.

Knowing the FRICTION ZONE is a small part of learning how to ride……..ConfusedGeek

MSF Course grades on many things,

Balance, braking, turning, looking through the turn, shifting (FRICTION ZONE), weaving, etc. etc…

Good luck.

[Sidewalk]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Many of the people/organizations that provide private instruction are unable or unwilling to get certified as an MSF facility. The 2 people in the Bay Area that I am aware of are known as 'loose cannons' that don't play well with others.I wish I remember who it was I had as an instructor. He said it was just a side thing he did on occasion, and I am pretty sure his first name is James. If I can ever find the paperwork I will come back with it. He was a certified MSF instructor, and was very polite.

But I totally understand your point of view and am forced to agree.

Originally posted by sinncere
Now if you can, you definitely should find a decent working bike to practice on. Insurance shouldn't be a problem even if you have no experience, especially if you've got a bike with a small displacement. Of course, all you'd really need is liability coverage, so that should cheapen the rates even more.My KTM is $5 a month.

[kentuckyfried]

don't feel bad...the classes are structured to that if you don't get it within the first try, you're gonna get kicked out.

Try not to stress about it the 2nd time around...it'll just make you choke. Relax, and stay focused. Don't agonize over the mistakes you make.

It really does help to get practice BEFORE the MSF class, since it moves at such a fast pace and there isn't a whole lot of room for error. I'd say, go ahead and get your first starter bike that you want to ride, and use that before and after class.

My neighbor's selling an old CB550 if you're interested. $900
It's not the ideal starter bike b/c of weight, but it runs.



Originally posted by ConfusedGeek
Wow, thanks for all the replies.

I wish I could make it to Novato,
but i usually work from 8 am to 8 pm.
Thank you for the offer though.
The only time I can practice a bike is on the weekends with my work schedule.

It sure does bum me out that I didnt pass the MSF but its the way it goes. I just have to find another way to do this.

Finding a cheap bike + insurance + motorcycle permit, just takes more time and money at this point. But its the only option there is.

This option is probably cheaper in the long run rather that continously taking the MSF. 5.5 hours on a bike in one day is not enough time for me to grasp the details of riding a bike.

Dont have any friends with bikes. So, Im out of luck there.

I tried looking online or in the yellow pages for a different instructional course like the MSF but there isnt any.
And there isnt an professional course (in the yellow pages, at least) that teaches motorcycle rider on a 1 on 1 basis.

Anyways, thanks for the links and info. It sure did help a lot and put things into perspective. I'll see what I can keep doing so I can eventually get that M1 license. But if you have anymore advice, as always feel free to comment.

Thanks again.

- ConfusedGeek

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
don't feel bad...the classes are structured to that if you don't get it within the first try, you're gonna get kicked out.
That statement couldn't be more wrong. Please stop passing on incorrect information.
Originally posted by kentuckyfried
It really does help to get practice BEFORE the MSF class, since it moves at such a fast pace and there isn't a whole lot of room for error. Students with 'experience' tend to have a more difficult time passing the course than those that have no 'experience'. They end up having to spend time trying to break bad habits before learning the new technique.

We have no idea why the original poster did not pass the course, so we cannot just tell them to practice. What do they need to practice? If they go out and practice wrong, then they will have an even more difficult time passing if they ever try returning to the course.

Just riding a motorcycle is not going to make you better. You need to know what you are doing wrong, and then know how to correct it.

[sinncere]

Originally posted by Enchanter

Students with 'experience' tend to have a more difficult time passing the course than those that have no 'experience'. They end up having to spend time trying to break bad habits before learning the new technique.

We have no idea why the original poster did not pass the course, so we cannot just tell them to practice. What do they need to practice? If they go out and practice wrong, then they will have an even more difficult time passing if they ever try returning to the course.

Just riding a motorcycle is not going to make you better. You need to know what you are doing wrong, and then know how to correct it.

I had some experience in riding before the MSF, and I passed it without it feeling difficult. It's not easy by any means, but it's not difficult either. I think it depends on the person's mind-set, on how serious they are about learning. I don't remember trying to break bad habits during my class, just trying to learn things I didn't already know. I pretty much went there wiping my slate clean as far as what I know about riding. It really does depend on the person, with experience or no experience.

As far as practicing, no one advocates practicing incorrectly. I think by default, when someone advises someone to practice, they mean for that person to practice correctly. That's why some folks even advise that they have an experience rider supervise them to make sure they do it right.

Your last statement can't even be achieved unless you practice.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by sinncere
I had some experience in riding before the MSF, and I passed it without it feeling difficult. It's not easy by any means, but it's not difficult either. I think it depends on the person's mind-set, on how serious they are about learning. I don't remember trying to break bad habits during my class, just trying to learn things I didn't already know. I pretty much went there wiping my slate clean as far as what I know about riding. It really does depend on the person, with experience or no experience.
Excellent paragraph. Tons of very good information in there.

Originally posted by sinncere
As far as practicing, no one advocates practicing incorrectly. I think by default, when someone advises someone to practice, they mean for that person to practice correctly. That's why some folks even advise that they have an experience rider supervise them to make sure they do it right.
My point is that most new riders attention is spent on the act on riding and that they do not have the ability to devote to analize their own mistakes and then correct them while they are on the bike. New riders are pretty overwhelmed just being on the bike in the first place.

Yes, having an 'experienced' rider help is a better idea than going it alone, but you sure are putting a lot of faith in that 'experienced' rider. When you learn from someone else, you tend to pick up their habits (good and bad ones). It takes a special person to be able to separate what they do and what should be taught to a novice. Most people forget that there is a learning curve that must be taken into account. Hang around barf long enough and you will see people advise someone with 2mo experience to "take it to the track".

Originally posted by sinncere
Your last statement can't even be achieved unless you practice.
You lost me. I don't understand that sentance.

My last statement was trying to explain that 'just riding' is not practicing. Practicing is riding with the idea that you are paying attention to your actions and analizing them with the goal of becoming better. There are a ton of riders out there with years and years and miles and miles of 'experience' that have made and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. If asked, the'll tell you that they know how to ride. Again I remind you and others, that knowing how to operate the controls of a motorcycle does not mean that person knows how to ride. People forget that riding is more mental than physical.

[kentuckyfried]

I'm not trying to pass on incorrect information. I should qualify my statements more though.

If you're going into the class, completely blind, and you've never even sat on a motorcycle before, all the information can be a little overwhelming. It's the same as trying to learn how to drive stick-shift in a car. Then suddenly they're throwing quick stops at you plus getting one foot down without looking down at the ground, and downshifting at the same time, etc.

So in terms of practice, I mean, at least getting slightly familiarized with a bike before going to class if at all possible, and getting used to the FINE-C steps, getting into first without stalling, etc, hopefully under the supervision of an experienced rider. Removing bad habits and overall proper technique belongs in the MSF course.

"pre-practice" before the course might not be as necessary if all the classes, across the board, were arranged it so that if person didn't pass, they could just keep coming back indefinitely, on a stand-by basis before a particular sessions starts. There's so many no-shows that this seems to work out rather well. That would take the pressure off of worrying about not passing or not, and allow new people just to focus on the class content itself.

Without some sort of practice in between classes, how's a person who didn't pass the first time to assume the it won't happen again? This's why it's good to take the monetary pressure off.




Originally posted by Enchanter
That statement couldn't be more wrong. Please stop passing on incorrect information.
Students with 'experience' tend to have a more difficult time passing the course than those that have no 'experience'. They end up having to spend time trying to break bad habits before learning the new technique.

We have no idea why the original poster did not pass the course, so we cannot just tell them to practice. What do they need to practice? If they go out and practice wrong, then they will have an even more difficult time passing if they ever try returning to the course.

Just riding a motorcycle is not going to make you better. You need to know what you are doing wrong, and then know how to correct it.

[sinncere]

Originally posted by Enchanter

My point is that most new riders attention is spent on the act on riding and that they do not have the ability to devote to analize their own mistakes and then correct them while they are on the bike. New riders are pretty overwhelmed just being on the bike in the first place.

Yes, having an 'experienced' rider help is a better idea than going it alone, but you sure are putting a lot of faith in that 'experienced' rider. When you learn from someone else, you tend to pick up their habits (good and bad ones). It takes a special person to be able to separate what they do and what should be taught to a novice. Most people forget that there is a learning curve that must be taken into account. Hang around barf long enough and you will see people advise someone with 2mo experience to "take it to the track".


No, not a lot of faith on an experienced rider. But two heads are better than one. I do agree on the overwhelming feeling a new rider gets once they're on the bike. It's quite tenseful. So I think it would at least help to have another voice remind you to calm down and take some pressure off yourself by helping you out. Like you said, take the load off some of the analyzing that needs to be done. I do agree that one should be wary of habits they pick up, but that would once again depend on the learner.


Originally posted by Enchanter


You lost me. I don't understand that sentance.

My last statement was trying to explain that 'just riding' is not practicing. Practicing is riding with the idea that you are paying attention to your actions and analizing them with the goal of becoming better. There are a ton of riders out there with years and years and miles and miles of 'experience' that have made and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. If asked, the'll tell you that they know how to ride. Again I remind you and others, that knowing how to operate the controls of a motorcycle does not mean that person knows how to ride. People forget that riding is more mental than physical.

I thoroughly understand and agree, especially with your last sentence on that one. But practicing also means to simply get out there and keep riding over and over again. More often than not, that's all that anyone means when they advise another to practice. Just ride as often as you can to make everything be second nature.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by kentuckyfried
I'm not trying to pass on incorrect information. I should qualify my statements more though.

If you're going into the class, completely blind, and you've never even sat on a motorcycle before, all the information can be a little overwhelming. It's the same as trying to learn how to drive stick-shift in a car. Then suddenly they're throwing quick stops at you plus getting one foot down without looking down at the ground, and downshifting at the same time, etc.

So in terms of practice, I mean, at least getting slightly familiarized with a bike before going to class if at all possible, hat the class waand getting used to the FINE-C steps, getting into first without stalling, etc, hopefully under the supervision of an experienced rider. Removing bad habits and overall proper technique belongs in the MSF course.

"pre-practice" before the course might not be as necessary if all the classes, across the board, were arranged it so that if person didn't pass, they could just keep coming back indefinitely, on a stand-by basis before a particular sessions starts. There's so many no-shows that this seems to work out rather well. That would take the pressure off of worrying about not passing or not, and allow new people just to focus on the class content itself.

Without some sort of practice in between classes, how's a person who didn't pass the first time to assume the it won't happen again? This's why it's good to take the monetary pressure off.

You originally stated:
Originally posted by kentuckyfried
the classes are structured to that if you don't get it within the first try, you're gonna get kicked out.
That is incorrect information that you were passing on.

As for continually returning to the class for free, would it be fair to expect the same thing at Stanford? UC Berkeley? De Anza? Yes we provide a service, but we are also a business. We have to supply the RiderCoaches, the motorcycles, the fuel, the parking lot, and sooo much more. How do you expect us to do this AND let people comeback (free) indefinately? We provide the information in a well thought out curriculum that works for the majority of the public that comes to the classes. Some people have a more difficult time than others, we try to assist them as best we can. We cannot MAKE people learn. We present the info, it's their responsibility to accept it and apply it.

I've tried to avoid saying this, but the main reason that people have a hard time in the class is that they allow their fear to take over. They are so afraid of falling that they are unable to devote their attention to learning the technique that will eliminate that 'fear'. People that return to the class are more likely to pass NOT because they got more practice. They react differently because they are not as fearful of the motorcycle and can devote more attention to learning than they devote to fear.

You make the statement that "removing bad habits belongs" in the course. Yes that is a part of it, but it is really about teaching GOOD habits to begin with. People that get 'practice' before attending the class spend time RE-learning when their fellow students are approaching it fresh.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by sinncere
I do agree that one should be wary of habits they pick up, but that would once again depend on the learner.
I disagree. Learners wouldn't know a bad habit if it jumped off the ground and kissed them in the face. It is the responsibility of the 'teacher' to ensure that the info being taught is correct. Students (of anything) put their faith in their teacher,

Originally posted by sinncere I thoroughly understand and agree, especially with your last sentence on that one. But practicing also means to simply get out there and keep riding over and over again. More often than not, that's all that anyone means when they advise another to practice. Just ride as often as you can to make everything be second nature.

You are totally missing the point.

Practicing is not just riding over and over again. I agree that that is what people mean when they tell someone to practice. Those people are incorrect. If someone rides without analizing their actions to determine what was correct and what wasn't, they are not learning anything. All they are doing is building a habit. A bad habit. (assuming they aren't doing the correct thing)

Practicing is not just repetitive actions ('Just get out there and ride!'). Practicing is analizing those actions and applying the lessons learned. If people think that everyone is trying to be a better driver or rider everytime the get behind the wheel, they are fooling themselves.

Second nature huh? Does that mean it's good? I know a lot of people whose 'second nature' is to only use one brake. Is that good? Just getting out there and riding will create that 'second nature' you refer to. How do you ensure that that 'second nature' is the correct thing to do and not the wrong thing?

'Just riding' is not practicing.

[kentuckyfried]

Originally posted by Enchanter
[B]You originally stated:

That is incorrect information that you were passing on.


--> ok, that was a gross exaggeration. It's more like, twice to three times to be exact per exercise. There's only so much time allowed before a single person starts holding up the entire class. so that's an acceptable policy for a non-private class.


As for continually returning to the class for free, would it be fair to expect the same thing at Stanford? UC Berkeley? De Anza? Yes we provide a service, but we are also a business.


--> But people already paid $200 up front. I'm not advocatig that people keep coming back 10 or more times. At that point it becomes a losing proposition. Coming back "indefinitely" should be up to the discretion of the teachers and the program administrators.

3 strikes sounds more reasonable. ;)


We have to supply the RiderCoaches, the motorcycles, the fuel, the parking lot, and sooo much more. How do you expect us to do this AND let people comeback (free) indefinately?


--> Aren't people who show up on standby filling in for the No-Shows who've already paid, so doesn't that cover the expense of the stand-bys already? The No-Shows, by default, have had to cancel due laziness or emergency, and if I recall, it's the classes' policy to offer no refunds for those cases.

You mention "fear" as being a big factor as to why people don't pass the first time. But I think a big part of the fear has alot to do (1) to a minor extent, avoiding the public humiliation of getting excused from class and (2) the monetary penalty for failure, be it the $100 or the $200 for the 3rd, 4th time courses respectively. Remove that condition, or at least mitigate by saying "come back as many times as you need within reason", and the task becomes far less daunting.

[ConfusedGeek]

Even more posts. Great =)

That MSF course was a great help even though I didnt pass.

Im sure im going to pick up some bad habits along the way as I practice outside of the MSF.

(As soon as I get my permit, practice motorcycle, helmet, gear, boots, insurance, etc)

I've had a total of 4 hours of practice on a motorcycle in my life time. That was during the MSF before I was asked to leave.

But that is really expensive at $230-ish dollars per day class. I can retake the driving portion once for free. Its the written rule in the MSF course book, and I dont think they will change this because its policy.

But if I fail again, Im going to have to repay $230-ish to re-take it.

I can not keep paying $230-ish.
For 2 days of practice, every 2 weeks.

Im sorry to those about asking me to keep taking the MSF until I pass. But financially, I can not. I have to think about the worst case scenario for this class. And it is just too much money.

Im going to have to practice until I get use to riding a motorcycle then use my free pass for the MSF.

And if I don't pass the MSF, then I'll try to pass the DMV test.

Ultimately, its my goal to become a safe driver and get that M1 license. The MSF is just a path along the way.

Im still interested in passing that MSF course to be a good rider, but the money factor just makes it that much more pressure to pass.

I'd be sad if I don't pass it a second time, but if thats what happens, then thats life. Im just not part of the elite group that passes that course.

Im planning on taking my motorcycle's permit this week on friday at the DMV. Already scheduled and all. Just have to pass the written. Once I get that, I'll go start looking for a bike, then insurance.

After that, then Ill go start practicing on the weekends until im more comfortable on a motorcycle.

Once thats done, Ill head back to the MSF and see, if Ill learn more and pass it.