Non moto related carpool question.

[Foxwolfe]

Just something I've been curious about for a while now and never remember to ask when I have the opportunity to do so in person.

Ok heres the deal, I own a 1989 mustang and it currently only has 2 seats, driver/passenger, I got rid of the rear seats cause they are quite poor as far as rear seating goes in cars (it is a muscle/sports car after all, since when have those things ever had decent rear seats :x ) and in place I have a rear seat delete to clean it up.

Oh forgot to mention this is specifically pertaining to areas where carpool is 3 persons or more, such as 80. And on said freeway the signs say "carpool is 3 or more persons per vehicle" with a sign below it stating "two seaters with two persons is ok". Maybe not in that exact text but thats the gist of it.

So back to my question, I have this auto modified to the point where it only has 2 seats, the rear seats are no more, no seatbelts back there or anything. One day I was comming up the freeway in said car, with my friend in the passenger seat, about to hit the toll booth during carpool hours, so I think to myself "carpool time, 2 seater with 2 persons, I should be ok" right? Well as I pull up to inform the toll attendant that I had 2 in a 2 seater I was told my car didnt qualify for that because, and I quote: "it needed to come like that originally".

This statement just struck me as odd seeing as how with this logic couldnt one take a 2 seater and add more seating, but still roll through the carpool lane with only 2 people because it "originally" came as a 2 seater?

Another thing is certain models of my car of the same generation (i.e. fox mustangs) came from the factory with only 2 seats, such as the Cobra version.

So my question is (sorry for the length it took me to get here :p ) am I able to use the carpool lane in my mustang as it is right now, with no backseats and 2 people riding in the car, myself included? If not wouldnt I be able to get away with saying it was a debadged/modified Cobra? Not saying I'm looking for an excuse to use just kinda confused as to why my current now 2 seater mustang wouldnt work for the carpool lane as opposed to a factory 2 seater mustang when theres no way for anyone to really be able to tell the difference aside from running the vin. Just seems to me a 2 seater should be considered a 2 seater, not "only if it came that way originally".

Again this is just something that I've always wondered about and always forgot to ask when given the opportunity, and any help with the matter is much appreciated. :)

[Foxwolfe]

Any takers?

[ScottRNelson]

So by your logic I could take all of the seats out of a minivan except the two in the front and call it a two-seater. :nerd

Real sports cars, like the Honda S2000 that I used to own, barely have enough room behind the front seats for a piece of paper, let alone a passenger.

If you get a ticket in your Mustang for two people in a three-person carpool lane, you deserve it, in my opinion. Stick to motorcycles in the carpool lane and you're fine.

[K-dog]

Originally posted by Foxwolfe
[B]
This statement just struck me as odd seeing as how with this logic couldnt one take a 2 seater and add more seating, but still roll through the carpool lane with only 2 people because it "originally" came as a 2 seater?

I do that all the time! You should see my 8 seater miata :twofinger


Another thing is certain models of my car of the same generation (i.e. fox mustangs) came from the factory with only 2 seats, such as the Cobra version.


Are you sure that they are the same throughout other than that? I'm no mustang expert, and my referrals would take to long to get back to me for this post, but seriously. Are you sure? :hand (sorry bad pun) :laughing :blush

[Enchanter]

I have a 2 seat full size van and have gone through the GG and Richmond bridges multiple times. (having stopped at the booth and been waved through)

[monkeythumpa]

My buddy got pulled over with me in his truck, a two seater but it had two fold down seats in the back with seat belts. The cop cited the "intent of the manufacturer" and they intended the truck to seat four, albeit uncomfortably.

If Ford intended for more tan two people to ride in it when they made it, it is not a two seater, no matter what you do to it.

[Noid]

Pretty sure the vehicle needs to be manufactured with two seats for it to qualify. The only exception to this (and might not be a exception any more) Is a McLaren F1. When they first came out the two side seats did not meet DOT specs or something like that. ut hey if you can aford a million dollor car who cars about a stupid ticket.

[Foxwolfe]

Originally posted by K-dog
Are you sure that they are the same throughout other than that? I'm no mustang expert, and my referrals would take to long to get back to me for this post, but seriously. Are you sure? :hand (sorry bad pun) :laughing :blush

Yes, besides minor differences in certain body parts (for example the wing or front/rear bumper, which are commonly replaced on these cars [like a GT mustang with Cobra body pieces]) and the interior being bare bones with a factory rear seat delete and roll cage, the cars are the same. Just like if say the WRX STI came as a 2 seater, still with the same room in the back, but no seats back there, besides the minor cosmetic changes to the outside (not taking the performance changes into account since they were not much from my mustang to a 93 Cobra) it's basicly just like a base WRX.

Originally posted by ScottRNelson
So by your logic I could take all of the seats out of a minivan except the two in the front and call it a two-seater. :nerd

Real sports cars, like the Honda S2000 that I used to own, barely have enough room behind the front seats for a piece of paper, let alone a passenger.

If you get a ticket in your Mustang for two people in a three-person carpool lane, you deserve it, in my opinion. Stick to motorcycles in the carpool lane and you're fine.

Where are you getting this stuff? I'm simply asking a question of if what I heard is true, and if so why, since it came off as something odd to me. No where did I say I thought I should be allowed to pull seats out of a car with more than 2 and then be able to apply for the carpool lane.

The only reason I even asked is because as I said my car as it is now seating wise is almost just as a cobra of the same yearing would be, it looks like it could have came out of the factory like it is now, there is no way for anymore than 2 people to be seated in my car. I could care less about your "real" sports car you used to own or how little space it doesnt have behind the seats. If a car originally came with 2 seats it came with 2 seats, it could have a mile of space behind them, that doesnt matter.

Bottom line is I dont even drive my car anymore, I've prolly put 100 miles on it since getting my last bike in november, and around 8000 miles on the bike. This incident happened a few years ago (I remember I was comming back from brendens theater in concord after having just watched the first lord of the rings lol). As I said it was something I always wanted to get a LEO response on out of curiosity and never remembered to given the chance, so I thought I would ask it here.

Thanks for the replies so far.

[motorman4life]

I have looked high and low through the CHP and CalTrans websites for some clarification. I had heard the "official" position of the state was that if you removed seats, it would not qualify. But, I was told the practical application was that if it was a 2-seater, then 2 people were okay. The websites and signs have no mention of whether or not it is legal to modify the vehicle or whether the mfg's intent or original equipment matters.

In researching the issue in the CVC... particularly 21655.5-.6 and .8, I find nothing about modified vehicles; for or against. In fact, 21655.5(b) CVC clearly states that you are to "comply with the conformity instructions imparted by the official traffic control devices (posted signs)." So, as per the CVC, if the sign merely states "2-seater vehicles with 2 persons okay" then you are okay if you have a 2-seater vehicle with 2 persons on-board.

I know a couple of people that removed the rear fold-down bench from behind the seats in their pick-ups way back when the 3-person rule went into effect in Berkeley and they place cargo there. They have never had a problem. About 2 years ago, I spoke with a CHP officer that worked the Bay Bridge and he said if the rear seats and belts are removed, you cannot legally place passengers there and it is indeed a 2-seater, even if it is a 4-door!

The fact that Ford did make a 2-seat model in that era should carry some weight with those that argue about mfg's intent. But, per the letter of the law, the mfg's intent is not relevant unless it is posted on the regulatory signs. Additionally, as per 5205.5 CVC, if you were to successfully modify your vehicle to meet the super low-emissions standards, you could qualify for and receive the ULEV/HOV stickers, regardless of the intent of the manufacturer. This blows out the "mfg's intent" argument completely.

I know there are published plans to extend the car-pool lane hours (maybe up to 24-hours, like LA) and bump up all of them to 3-persons (or 2-persons in a 2-seater) as well as solo motorcyclists, qualifying hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles, busses and Para-transit as well as others that pay a fee too use the HOV lanes.

If that were to go into effect, I have little doubt this whole modified 2-seater issue would gain some significant press and a lot of car-poolers would be making any necessary changes to their Mini Coopers, Miatas, Civics and pick-ups... particularly when the bridge tolls go to $5, then $6, then $8, then $10. I'm sure by then most everyone will be on FasTrak too.

Anyhow, if you have a Mustang or any coupe with no rear seats, you need to be more assertive. It is a 2-seater. Period. Put a big sticker in the rear window that says "HOV qualified 2-seater per CVC 21655.5(b)" and roll with it!

[Foxwolfe]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, but I really appreciate the in depth response you've provided me with here MM4L. Very informative, again, greatly appreciate it.

[zpyro]

Originally posted by Foxwolfe
a 1989 mustang ... (is a muscle/sports car after all
:laughing :laughing :laughing it's a pony car :p

[Junkie]

mm4l, the miata is and always has been a 2 seater.

[Foxwolfe]

Originally posted by zpyro
:laughing :laughing :laughing it's a pony car :p

Ponys got muscles dont dey. :x

:p

mm4l, the miata is and always has been a 2 seater.

Dont get me started on miatas, I'm over 6 feet tall and have had to drive my friends miata on more than one occasion now. :cry :laughing

[Nutshell]

Originally posted by motorman4life


I know a couple of people that removed the rear fold-down bench from behind the seats in their pick-ups way back when the 3-person rule went into effect in Berkeley and they place cargo there. They have never had a problem. About 2 years ago, I spoke with a CHP officer that worked the Bay Bridge and he said if the rear seats and belts are removed, you cannot legally place passengers there and it is indeed a 2-seater, even if it is a 4-door!


i have a question about this. my wife is in the market for a 2006 mini cooper. the base model (not the S) does not come with rear seat belts, but it does have rear seats.

my understanding is that if it is not equiped with safety belts, then it is a 2 seater even though there is room for the person to sit in the back.

is that correct? is there a cvc that points to that directly?

thanks!

[Noid]

Originally posted by Nutshell
i have a question about this. my wife is in the market for a 2006 mini cooper. the base model (not the S) does not come with rear seat belts, but it does have rear seats.

my understanding is that if it is not equiped with safety belts, then it is a 2 seater even though there is room for the person to sit in the back.

is that correct? is there a cvc that points to that directly?

thanks!

This is interesting. I don't understand how the DOT would let a vehicle with a seat but no seat belt pass.

[Brash47]

MM4L is correct. I think if the car is modified where no person could reasonably sit there, I think it is legal to ride in the carpool lane with just 2 people. Remember though, there can be no possiblility that a person could legally ride there.

Also, what is a "seat delete"?

2. As far as the Mini Cooper being sold with no rear seat belts, sorry that is illegal in California and most other states to do. The manufacturor is REQUIRED to put DOT seat belts on those seats to accomodate them. It is just like the front license plate holder. If the car doesn't have one on the lot, the dealer has to put one of the car AT NO COST TO THE CONSUMER.

Car dealerships are not allowed to sell cars that are not street legal. If the dealership gives you a problem with it, then they are outside the law and also a shitty dealership for putting you through that problem. I would shop elsewhere.

brash

[Foxwolfe]

Originally posted by Brash47
Also, what is a "seat delete"?

In this case it's a kit, either bought unassembled or made yourself, to pretty much cover up the now empty rear seat area and give it a factory look.

For example:
http://www.mustangblog.com/wp-content/kdezines_rear2.jpg

[Junkie]

so because I can sit in the back of a station wagon they have to install seatbelts there for free? They must not be designed as seats or something ;)

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Junkie
so because I can sit in the back of a station wagon they have to install seatbelts there for free? They must not be designed as seats or something ;)
The back of a station wagon is a cargo area. It is not a seating area.

As for the seat delete. As I understand it, if you have seats in back, it is not a 2-seater. If anyone sits in the seats, they are required to be belted and if the belts are removed, then it would be a fix-it ticket to replace the facotry belts. If you delete the seats (and belts) then it is a cargo area and effectively a 2-seater. Legal for 2-person carpool on the Bay Bridge.

[Nutshell]

http://minisf.com/New-Inventory.aspx?InventoryId=14580446

taken from mini of san francisco

if you look at the very last thing on the list, it says "Seatbelts: Front". i assumed this meant it didnt have rear seat belts. if that could mean anything else please let me know. it could settle an argument...:blush

[Junkie]

Originally posted by motorman4life
The back of a station wagon is a cargo area. It is not a seating area.

As for the seat delete. As I understand it, if you have seats in back, it is not a 2-seater. If anyone sits in the seats, they are required to be belted and if the belts are removed, then it would be a fix-it ticket to replace the facotry belts. If you delete the seats (and belts) then it is a cargo area and effectively a 2-seater. Legal for 2-person carpool on the Bay Bridge. what I mean is that they could claim that the back seats are just a shelf, and therefore cargo area, not seats.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Nutshell
http://minisf.com/New-Inventory.aspx?InventoryId=14580446

taken from mini of san francisco

if you look at the very last thing on the list, it says "Seatbelts: Front". i assumed this meant it didnt have rear seat belts. if that could mean anything else please let me know. it could settle an argument...:blush
I have a Mini and it has rear belts installed. I wish it were a 2-seater and about 18" shorter. I am told 2-seaters are much more expensive to insure. I don't know. I have considered doing a seat-delete in back. If I can find one as clean as the one shown in the pic (which looks like a Mustang). I have not found one that nice for my Mini. I have seen some nice ones in Hondas too.

Before anyone sends me the link, I have been to www.rearseatdelete.com. I don't like the plastic cover they have there. It looks tacky. :(

[monkeythumpa]

Unless they removed the seatbelts after the 2004 models, the Cooper S does come with rear seatbelts. We were looking at them but got a hybrid instead.

Fold down the rear seat, you will find them.

[Foxwolfe]

Originally posted by motorman4life
I have a Mini and it has rear belts installed. I wish it were a 2-seater and about 18" shorter. I am told 2-seaters are much more expensive to insure. I don't know. I have considered doing a seat-delete in back. If I can find one as clean as the one shown in the pic (which looks like a Mustang). I have not found one that nice for my Mini. I have seen some nice ones in Hondas too.

Before anyone sends me the link, I have been to www.rearseatdelete.com. I don't like the plastic cover they have there. It looks tacky. :(

With the age and how popular Fox mustangs are there are multiple people doing seat deletes for them (and you are correct thats a pic of a mustang) so it's easy to find decent kits for them, as theres more than a few to choose from.

In my experience though some of the best are always home project ones that the owners made themselves, but in the case of a near 20 year old mustang I could see that being a bit easier to make look nice than in a almost brand new car.

[zpyro]

Originally posted by Foxwolfe
Ponys got muscles dont dey. :x

:p


Just a lil:p