I wanna race!

[oliver]

Hi BARF,

The is the first of what will hopefully be quite a few posts, each detailing the ups, downs, and in-betweens of an endeavor that will hopefully last the better part of the next year.

My BARF career began unceremoniously with this post (http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2138351#post2138351) on 11/19/2005, 10 days after I registered. Since that time, I have become more enveloped in the act, sport, and thought of riding my motorcycle than I ever feared I would.

Traveling quickly through my surrounding environment is built into my DNA for some reason. My dad's an attorney and my Mom drives a school bus, so it didn't come from either one of them. None of my family members is something that could be called an enthusiast (except one uncle who owns a sports car). But I, from my very earliest memories, have eaten, slept, and breathed racing.

This manifested itself in a relatively successful 4 years of kart and car racing career that ended in 2001. I won a lot, but pulled the plug for fear of reaching the age of 30 one day and wondering what the hell I had been doing for the last decade. So I moved on into the real world, thankfully without ever ridding myself of the racing demons.

I somehow knew that this would happend when I bought my first bike. Fast bike --> faster bike --> racing. I didn't think it would happen in less than a year though! Until recently, I had been holding off attending a trackday because a) I didn't have a suit, b) I didn'y have a good way to get there and c) I thought I might really like it. But then it happened. A fellow BARFer sent me an instant message one Monday morning, letting me know that there was an empty spot in the trailer for a trip to Reno Fernley Raceway. Three days later, I had bought a suit and was on my way to the track.

Needless to say, those two days (http://www.oliverrowen.smugmug.com/gallery/1983183) awakened that which had been lying dormant inside me for the past few years: a completely insatiable appetite for pushing the limits of a moving vehicle. On the way home from the track, the first phone call I made was to my good friend Kyle in Texas (my kart racing teammate in 1999 and 2000), whose life is motorcycles, and greeted him with:

I wanna race!�

So that's what I named this thread. In it, over the coming months, I will hopefully chronicle my transition from "regular dude with a normal job"� to 'regular dude with a normal job who races motorcycles."� It will begin this weekend with a trip to Buttonwillow to check out the final round of the AFM season.

After talking to people who know more than I do about this type of thing, I believe that I want to race the 650 Twin class with a Suzuki SV650. On the other hand, I already have a very capable Open Twin bike in my Aprilia, but it's expensive to race and probably pretty damn expensive to crash. Plus, it couldn't hang (horsepower-wise anyway) with, say, a 999R. But maybe there aren't any 999Rs and I'd be racing against other Aprilias and TL1000s? I don't know. That's what the trip to the race this weekend will help clarify.

I'm posting this thread on BARF with inadvertent but obvious homage to Liam and his "*Liam's Wild Ride* (http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142624)" thread. We all have followed him in his successful efforts to make it to the top of our sport, MotoGP. My hope is that others on this board, who may know they want to race but not where to start, will be able to learn alongside me as I try to figure it all out. I need a race bike, supplies, transportation, and knowledge--none of which I have yet--so this should be fun!

For those who don't already know, my name is Oliver and I am 27 years old. I have a job, but I also have a boss. Two of them, actually. Money is an object for me, as it is for you. I don't want to be a professional motorcycle rider, as I've gone down that road before and I'm probably not talented enough. I want to win races, but know that it will be quite difficult. But I want to try...so sit back, enjoy, and offer any advice you can!

[stan23]

Let me be the first to say: Congrats!!!

I admire your enthusiasm..

/edit..

Wow! After reading about your car racing history, I retract everything I said. I think you'll do well.

[Go2Trackdays]

have fun!! (Feanor Jr.) http://www.afmracing.org/

[NoGall]

Originally posted by oliver

Fast bike --> faster bike --> racing.



Nah... Fast bike --> faster bike --> stupidity

Originally posted by oliver

Money is an object for me, as it is for you.



It does cost an arm and a leg... and credit scores for many.

Originally posted by oliver

I don’t want to be a professional motorcycle rider, as I’ve gone down that road before and I’m probably not talented enough. I want to win races, but know that it will be quite difficult.



A bit confused... You were a professional motorcycle rider before? Or do you mean you dreamed about being one? A few AFM guys I know all had first gone through at least a couple of years of trackdays, and nothing but trackdays to burn up their vacation days and bank accounts, before they even talked about the new racer school.

Good luck, man.

[Holeshot]

First lesson: it takes more effort and stength to ride a high hp bike VS a low hp bike.

Second lesson: don't race an exotic bike. There's no parts in the pits when you bin it.

Third lesson: Real men start in 600's, so I hear...

Ever wanted an ex-wife and a kid payment? You just got one!

Good luck. If you can make it past year 3 of the racing, you'll be in good shape.

Oh and you know when those Zoom Zoom, Or Keigwins instructors say "you should race". I don't think alot of them, themselves race...

[DucatiHoney]

Hey Oliver, very cool. :thumbup

I know a few people that started out in racing exactly the way that you are proposing.

Real guys. Real lives. Real budgets.

The only difference between them and you is that some of them started out on smaller bikes (250's) and all of them had a fair number of track days under their belts before they gave racing a shot. Both of the classes that you're looking at seem pretty competitive for a relative newb. Even many of the GP guys started out on much more modest bikes before playing with the big boys. Might be something to consider... I'd have to imagine that a get-off on a 250 isn't quite the same thing as a get-off on a 650.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by oliver
I want to win races

http://www.ccsracing.com/

;)

[Bikerx260]

Season is over already. Just kidding, there is always next year! Track days will help, and maybe I'll see you out there. Noone has claimed my old number yet, so I just may get back into it too.

[cydobomb]

:Popcorn

good intro, oliver. i'm all ears...

buena suerte, and get out there and gas it!

:twofinger

[Sharky]

Good luck!

[oliver]

Originally posted by NoGall

A bit confused... You were a professional motorcycle rider before?
No, I raced cars professionally.

Originally posted by Holeshot
First lesson: it takes more effort and stength to ride a high hp bike VS a low hp bike.

Second lesson: don't race an exotic bike. There's no parts in the pits when you bin it.

Third lesson: Real men start in 600's, so I hear...

Ever wanted an ex-wife and a kid payment? You just got one!

Good luck. If you can make it past year 3 of the racing, you'll be in good shape.

Oh and you know when those Zoom Zoom, Or Keigwins instructors say "you should race". I don't think alot of them, themselves race...
Thanks, I agree with everything you wrote. Nobody has told me I should race; it's a conclusion that I drew on my own.

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
The only difference between them and you is that some of them started out on smaller bikes (250's)...
Thanks for the advice. I am open to racing any class. That's why I'm going to the last AFM race this weekend to check it all out. From my current vantage point though, it seems like SVs would be a good choice (keeping mind that they are quite a bit slower than my current bikes).

[Daredevil]

track days

[Sane_Man]

GoodLuck. Don't Fr0ng yourself.

[tuxumino]

If you've raced cars then you already know that most of a racers time is spent in preperation.
If your doing it as a hobby then your rider/mechanic/tech crew/owner and gofer.

I have not raced, but have thought about it and talked to some racers.
some ideas I got:
if you want to race 250s and win, figure 10gs a year. (cost goes up with displacement)
you will crash at least once a year and spend time in the hospital at least once every four years.
during the race season you will not get much sleep.
you will meet and get beat by some of the best people you'll ever meet.
If your lucky there will be someone at your lap time thats getting better at the same rate you are.

maybe asking for advice pointers in racers corner wuld be a good idea.
AFM races are agreat deal for 10bucks you can watch races and wonder around the paddocks for 2 days, most racers are happy to talk and give advice.

[Kensaku]

Two-strokes suck!

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by oliver


Thanks for the advice. I am open to racing any class. That's why I'm going to the last AFM race this weekend to check it all out. From my current vantage point though, it seems like SVs would be a good choice (keeping mind that they are quite a bit slower than my current bikes).

There was a really good article in one CycleWorld(?) a year or two back that talked about racing SuperDino. The guy had loads of experience riding, but had never raced. He didn't want to dump a bunch of money into it, and wanted to be somewhat competitive even though he had almost no experience on the track....I might be getting some of this wrong. Anyway, he bought a bike for a few-several hundred bucks, spent a weekend fixing it up and headed out. He said he had a blast and he was out very little money compared to most racing classes. He might have walked away with a 3rd place finish his first time out and there was something like 8 guys in his class.

If my lap times weren't embarrassingly huge and I had, ya know, like a bike ramp n stuff, I might actually consider doing SuperDino or the 450(?) Production classes. Actually those 450 guys can make those little bikes do some insane speeds, so maybe not.

[thesenior]

I dont race but have dont ALOT of track days and been on the track with alot of racers and have many friends that race in CMRA in Texas (Colin Edwards ol' starting point).
You will be surprised at the GAP difference between a really GOOD rider on a big bike and a decent racer on a small bike.

Example: 2 friends of mine riding at Texas World Speedway. One races an SV650 and the other rides a 1000RR. the SV will puts in a lap time of ~ 1.57, while the RR puts in ~1.59
Same racer took out an OLD F2 that was in HORRIBLE shape and put in a 1.58.
My fastest on that track has been 2.05.
My SV unfaired has a top speed on that front straight of about 126. Some SV's with fairings get up to 132. before topping out on that straight away. Liters will get upwards of 160-170 on the front straight. Back straight is a little bit shorter.
So how can this bike (and other small bikes) put in such great times? Carrying corner speed, being able to get on the throttle earilier, knowing better lines, practice practice practice.
Every time i've been on the track i pass guys on 999R's and Aprilia Factory's and any one of a long list of "faster" bikes. If you carry enough corner speed, you can even pass some of the liter bikes on the straights. It is all about technique, control, and SEAT TIME. You will often times find racers who volunteer their time at track school and such so yeah, they dont get to race around the track at crazy speeds, but they get more time on the track so that each track becomes as familiar as their back yard. Every open track day, they are there... doing whatever they can to make it. Hmm.. oddly enough.. i've never met an amature racer that was doing well financially :p
Good luck man!

Oh, btw: even an NSR50 or some of those 2 stroke 125's will TOAST you in a corner :p Fully leaned over, elbow an inch off the ground dragging knee and toes and changing gears without ever letting off the throttle... passing me while im doing 100 in the turn O.o
And get prepaired to be passed where there IS no room to pass. 3 inches between you and the Rumble Strip? not a problem. Will they put their knee on your plastics mid turn? yes they will. Will you get in the head by a boot or exhaust mid turn? yes you will :D
Your going out there to have fun, but alot of those guys are trying to either live off this or hoping to some day live off it. They have an all or nothing attitude which means T-Boning you out of over exuberance is not uncommon :p

[Holeshot]

I'd suggest not going with a 2-stroke. To much of a hassle to dial in, etc for a newbie. Get something you change the oil in, put tires on, and ride. SV650's are a really good choice. You really can't go wrong there. You can with the smaller classes such as 400's, singles, etc. There's just not enough people on the grid to have a competetive race at times.

[christofu]

My 4th day ever on a track was my first race day. By all means, do lots of track days, because that'll help you improve faster. But if you feel like you're ready to race come on out to our New Racer School on November 26th and we'll see if you have what it takes right now.

[christofu]

Originally posted by Holeshot
You can with the smaller classes such as 400's, singles, etc. There's just not enough people on the grid to have a competetive race at times.

It's pretty rare that there's no-one to race against, even in smaller classes like singles. In fact, this year Gerry and I have been going at it pretty hard. Last year, it was me and Jeff Schnapp. You almost always find someone to race against in almost all the classes.

[budman]

My second track day was a race day... no ZZ or PTT or anyone, but CASBS back in those days of no electricity or restrooms inside the house..

I look forward to following your story.:thumbup

2 tips from this old fart:

Go with the SV.
Do more track days......! :Port

:smoking

[oliver]

Originally posted by christofu
My 4th day ever on a track was my first race day. By all means, do lots of track days, because that'll help you improve faster. But if you feel like you're ready to race come on out to our New Racer School on November 26th and we'll see if you have what it takes right now.

Thank you for the information! I was not (fully) aware that I needed to complete a school to obtain a license...though I'm now very excited about it. I will send you a PM shortly.

Budman, thanks for the thumbs up!

[uraniaclio]

good luck...and ill be seeing you in a couple of years. :)

[giusepi]

Good luck friend. Im going to try and make it to the ZZ nrs also. :thumbup

[dubels]

Good luck. I have the same dreams but as a college student getting my bike track ready for the first trackday and maybe a trackday school is far off. I am just happy I have a bike. I might see you out at buttonwillow this weekend depends how much work I have and if the traffic leaving LA is bad.

[ianG]

Originally posted by oliver
From my current vantage point though, it seems like SVs would be a good choice (keeping mind that they are quite a bit slower than my current bikes).

Before you start thinking the SV is a 'beginning' race bike, watch a 650 Twins or Formula IV race at Infineon. Don't get me wrong, it's a great class to start racing and tons of fun, but by no means is a class that draws 40-50 bikes a cake walk.

And the SV doesn't have brake-neck top end speed, but it's far from slow and you aren't on the brakes like the big bikes.

[Zerox]

The SV650 is such a good choice, hard to pass that one up. Especially if you find one already race-prepped (safety wired, inverted GSXR forks, wider rear wheel, aftermarket shock, etc).

It's the same as any other form of racing, start out on user-friendly equipment, take things in gradual steps, and let the improvements come with seat time. When you least expect it is when you will enjoy your greatest riding breakthroughs.

Stray from that oft-proven formula, and the pain will come. Sad but true.

[JnglstTICAL]

I wanna race too....teach me holeshot!!

[Pakow]

do it!

good idea to go to the races and talk to people. you should also check out the rulebook.

http://www.afmracing.org/downloads/...rulebook_lg.pdf


good luck!

[jake28]

Supermoto.

More fun. Cheaper. Easier to get involved. Cheaper.

[get low]

Originally posted by jake28
Supermoto.

More fun. Cheaper. Easier to get involved. Cheaper.

Thats where im headed.

[kxmike]

Oliver, I'll be following your story with interest because I am considering racing next year myself. What many people don't understand is that the transition to racing bikes will be much easier for you because of your kart background. You have already
developed the senses required for high speed track racing...you just need to adjust those senses for riding a bike. I am in a similar situation, I come from a motocross background and I adapted to the track very easily. I suggest you do a couple more trackdays and get your lap times in a competitive range before doing the NRS (the main goals being smooth, predictable lines and safe passing in traffic).
If fun is what your looking for (on a limited budget), I think the sv650 or the ex250 are the best "bang for the buc".
Good luck, and hope to see ya on the grid next year.

[oliver]

I made the 3.5 hour drive to Buttonwillow yesterday morning to check out practice for the last AFM race of the year. The race is today (Sunday), but I had some things that I needed to do at home...so I took what I could get and watched practice.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104483102-L.jpg

There were probably 150 bikes there (I could be way off though).

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104483241-L.jpg

The last race of the season, no matter what you race, typically doesn't draw the greatest number of participants, and I was told there was some controversy surrounding the officials' decision to run the track backwards, which reduced attendance further. Supposedly the faster bikes were hitting about 183mph at the end of the straightaway.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104483296-L.jpg

After talking to a few different people, I still want to race an SV650 next year. Another viable option would be the Ninja 250 class (not its real name, but that's what you run). Part of what makes riding quickly a lot of fun however, is riding quickly, and well...35hp is 35hp. I also like the idea of racing in a very competitive class, and from what I understand, 650 Twin routinely carries about twice the number of entries of the 250cc class. Furthermore, I can race an SV in two classes, 650 Twin and Formula IV, should I have the desire.

This, as far as I can tell, is the Twin Works SV650 team (though there might be a few SV1000s there too):

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104483199-L.jpg

Another reason I went to this race was to check out bike carrying methods. Trucks, trailers, and motorhomes were the norm, but I also saw one of these:

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104483156-L.jpg

This looks like it might suit my needs quite well. I checked out their website, and there are two models: one for 450lbs and under, and one for 600lbs and under. I wonder if the lighter-weight version could handle an SV...anybody have experience with these things?

As I feared, both models require a Class III receiver, something that my Audi would certainly not be very happy about. I will have to look into getting a different vehicle. I don't have a very large garage, so a pickup truck is not an option. I will have to do further research. I would rather not tow a trailer because a) I have to drive slower and b) I wouldn't have a place to keep one. I could buy an older truck and park it on the street, but street parking in my SF neighborhood is a royal pain, regardless of whether or not you care about your car.

Decisions, decisions, decisions!

[Sane_Man]

So you still haven't actually seen anyone race in the AFM?

Until you observed a race first hand, and you can ride a B+ or an A-pace during trackdays, plus do it competitively among other riders in close proximity, I think you are in for a rude awakening. Those racers are FAST, even the 650 twins and 250's.

You just seem very over confident for someone who has only ridden one trackday and thinks he can race.

You did yourself a huge dis-service by traveling all the way down to Buttonwillow and not watch any racing, mainly for the thrill of watching the racers, but primarily for the reality check.

I've only done a trackday myself, but I've seen may, many AFM races. Enough t know I wouldn't go out there without a couple years of trackday experience.

I'll be watching for you in the Spring. Good Luck.

[quasi888]

With ya 100% Sane_Man. A-group ability and comfort level is a given. Even Clubman is no cakewalk. Half the Clubman field is running laptimes eligible for Sunday races. And in the last Clubman races I was allowed to compete in, we saw a guy (right behind me) get hit and run over, and another guy get caught on ALANRIDER's bike and get dragged 100+ feet. Clubman, tame? Hardly.

Having said that, I think the fact that this guy has raced cars -- and professionally at that -- counts for a whole lot. (Well, as long as it's not autocross! :laughing :later) No it doesn't guarantee that he'll be good immediately -- but it does mean he's comfortable with high speed with others at close quarters (albeit in cages), and that counts for a lot. And based on his first moto trackday pics, just by looking at his form I'd say he's at B+ level already.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sane_Man
So you still haven't actually seen anyone race in the AFM?

Until you observed a race first hand, and you can ride a B+ or an A-pace during trackdays, plus do it competitively among other riders in close proximity, I think you are in for a rude awakening. Those racers are FAST, even the 650 twins and 250's.

You just seem very over confident for someone who has only ridden one trackday and thinks he can race.

You did yourself a huge dis-service by traveling all the way down to Buttonwillow and not watch any racing, mainly for the thrill of watching the racers, but primarily for the reality check.

I've only done a trackday myself, but I've seen may, many AFM races. Enough t know I wouldn't go out there without a couple years of trackday experience.

I'll be watching for you in the Spring. Good Luck.

No, I didn't watch any of today's race. But I have watched quite a few AMA and MotoGP events, in person. Does that qualify me to race in the AMA and MotoGP? No, of course not...no more than watching an AFM race qualifies me to race in the AFM. I went to Buttonwillow to sight-see and talk to some of the racers, not ascertain my competitiveness. Quite frankly, anybody who thinks he can get any kind of a feel for his own relative performance while watching from the sidelines clearly has never raced competitively.

Incidentally, I did run B+ / A- pace during my two days in Reno. I was asked to move into that group on my first day, as a matter of fact. I declined because I was slightly intimidated by the thought of mixing it up with the real racers out there, but I switched for the second day. I spent my last two sessions (30 minutes each) in what was essentially an all-out toes-and-kness-dragging race with another rider...who had over a year's worth of trackdays...and a slightly faster bike...and new slicks to compare with my 3,000-mile-old Metzlers. We passed one another (and a few SV650 race bikes) many, many times. So yes, I can ride at a B+ / A- pace "competitively with other riders."

None of the above proves that I will be greeted by success next year. But hopefully, in your mind, it qualifies me to wanna go racing.

Quasi888: thanks for the support:thumbup

These are the cars I raced, for the record. If memory serves, I qualified 2nd out of 40+ cars for this race at Road Atlanta, and the pic was taken right before the start. BTW, this event took place on September 15th, 2001...hence the flags on my wing elements.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104532823-L.jpg

While I'm at it , here's a pic of me (#37) during a kart race the year prior. I wish I could say that I won the main event, but I didn't; that honor went to A.J. Allmendinger, followed by myself and then my (aforementioned) teammate Kyle. Any guesses who the fourth-place driver is in this pic? Hint: he finished 11th in today's Formula One season finale.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104531465-L.jpg

I posted these pics only to somewhat prove what quasi888 just wrote. While I don't have any experience racing motorcycles, I do have experience racing other vehicles in close quarters. To be honest, I was surprised how applicable my car/kart racing experience was to bike "racing". The theories behind proper racing lines seem identical, passing causes/effects seem identical, and most surprising of all, the whole cornering dance felt shockingly identical too! Just make sure to get your speed up near the tires' limit, nail your apexes, and go. I'm getting excited again just writing about it!

[Silence]

Originally posted by oliver
These are the cars I raced, for the record. If memory serves, I qualified 2nd out of 40+ cars for this race at Road Atlanta, and this was right before the start. BTW, this event took place on September 15th, 2001...hence the flags on my wing elements.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104532823-L.jpg

While I'm at it , here's a pic of me (#37) during a kart race the year prior. I wish I could say that I won the main event, but I didn't; that honor went to A.J. Allmendinger, followed by myself and then my (aforementioned) teammate Kyle. Any guesses who the fourth-place driver is in this pic? Hint: he finished 11th in today's Formula One season finale.

http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/104531465-L.jpg

I posted these pics only to somewhat prove what quasi888 just wrote. While I don't have any expereince racing motorcycles, I do have experience racing other vehicles in close quarters. To be honest, I was surprised how applicable my car/kart racing experience was to bike "racing". The theories behind proper racing lines seem identical, passing causes/effects seem identical, and most surprising of all, the whole cornering dance felt shockingly identical too! Just make sure to get your speed up near the tires' limit, nail your apexes, and go. I'm getting excited again just writing about it!

Hardcore and good luck! :thumbup

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by oliver
No, I didn't watch any of today's race. But I have watched quite a few AMA and MotoGP events, in person. Does that qualify me to race in the AMA and MotoGP? No, of course not...no more than watching an AFM race qualifies me to race in the AFM. I went to Buttonwillow to sight-see and talk to some of the racers, not ascertain my competitiveness. Quite frankly, anybody who thinks he can get any kind of a feel for his own relative performance while watching from the sidelines clearly has never raced competitively.

Incidentally, I did run B+ / A- pace during my two days in Reno. I was asked to move into that group on my first day, as a matter of fact. I declined because I was slightly intimidated by the thought of mixing it up with the real racers out there, but I switched for the second day. I spent my last two sessions (30 minutes each) in what was essentially an all-out toes-and-kness-dragging race with another rider...who had over a year's worth of trackdays...and a slightly faster bike...and new slicks to compare with my 3,000-mile-old Metzlers. We passed one another (and a few SV650 race bikes) many, many times. So yes, I can ride at a B+ / A- pace "competitively with other riders."

None of the above proves that I will be greeted by success next year. But hopefully, in your mind, it qualifies me to wanna go racing.

<snip>

I posted these pics only to somewhat prove what quasi888 just wrote. While I don't have any experience racing motorcycles, I do have experience racing other vehicles in close quarters. To be honest, I was surprised how applicable my car/kart racing experience was to bike "racing". The theories behind proper racing lines seem identical, passing causes/effects seem identical, and most surprising of all, the whole cornering dance felt shockingly identical too! Just make sure to get your speed up near the tires' limit, nail your apexes, and go. I'm getting excited again just writing about it!

If you're going to do this smartly, I'd suggest taking the defensiveness down a notch or two. If you were to have a horrible accident during your first race and we'd all encouraged you in this thread, knowing what a bloodbath it can be, you'd be pretty pisssed if no one had piped up and said something about how dangerous it can be. You might not like what Sane_Man has to say or how he says it, but it might be the one dissenting comment that saves your hide. Give the negative comments equal weight as the positive, even though it might not be what you want to hear. Being honest with yourself about this is important, Oliver.

[uraniaclio]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
If you're going to do this smartly, I'd suggest taking the defensiveness down a notch or two. If you were to have a horrible accident during your first race and we'd all encouraged you in this thread, knowing what a bloodbath it can be, you'd be pretty pisssed if no one had piped up and said something about how dangerous it can be. You might not like what Sane_Man has to say or how he says it, but it might be the one dissenting comment that saves your hide. Give the negative comments equal weight as the positive, even though it might not be what you want to hear. Being honest with yourself about this is important, Oliver.

He has raced and it would be a bit presumptuous of us to assume that he doesn't understand the risks involved. I don't think we're dealing with some noob on a brand new Triumph amped up on MotoGP dvd's and AFM races. :p

Oliver,
you might want to do a few more track days and see if you can get friendly with some of the racers. There's always a whole bunch of them in the A group. From what I understand, you can learn a lot by just towing around during track days.

[monstermonster]

Originally posted by oliver
After talking to a few different people, I still want to race an SV650 next year. Another viable option would be the Ninja 250 class (not its real name, but that's what you run). Part of what makes riding quickly a lot of fun however, is riding quickly, and well...35hp is 35hp. I also like the idea of racing in a very competitive class, and from what I understand, 650 Twin routinely carries about twice the number of entries of the 250cc class. Furthermore, I can race an SV in two classes, 650 Twin and Formula IV, should I have the desire.


Oliver, you have an open invite to take my other Ninja 250 out to the track sometime when I'm signed up. We can do some sessions together. WFO through Turn 1 at T-Hill on a Ninja 250--while a lot slower than the bigger bikes--is one of the most sphincter-tightening moments you'll ever experience. Then you can have an informed opinion about what constitutes "riding quickly." I'm absolutely serious. Let's do it.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't think about the SV650 class as a starting class, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the others. I learned more in two days of riding on my 250 than in more than a dozen trackdays on an r6. There's a lot to learn there with smaller bikes, and the 'smaller' bike classes are cheaper to run.

Psst -- the 250s run in two classes, too: 250 prod and then in 500 twins or 250 superbike.

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by uraniaclio
He has raced and it would be a bit presumptuous of us to assume that he doesn't understand the risks involved. I don't think we're dealing with some noob on a brand new Triumph amped up on MotoGP dvd's and AFM races. :p


I never said that...what makes me nervous is when I see this:

Originally posted by oliver
<snip> …so sit back, enjoy, and offer any advice you can!

...and a couple of pages later you see the same guy blinding defending his decision without giving some thought to what others might say when it doesn't agree with his idea of how the world should be. I've been on this board a couple of years, and although this doesn't make me a veteran in the ways of the motorcycling world, this isn't the first time I've seen confidence turn to over-confidence very quickly and turn out very badly. Maybe he should change the name of the thread to "I'm gonna race. Period," if that's his stance on the subject.

Personally, I think Oliver's probably going to be just fine out there on the grid. He's got some relevant racing experience, some natural talent and a level head--he rides a Ducati, so he must be O.K. :p

[uraniaclio]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
I never said that...what makes me nervous is when I see this:



...and a couple of pages later you see the same guy blinding defending his decision without giving some thought to what others might say when it doesn't agree with his idea of how the world should be. I've been on this board a couple of years, and although this doesn't make me a veteran in the ways of the motorcycling world, this isn't the first time I've seen confidence turn to over-confidence very quickly and turn out very badly. Maybe he should change the name of the thread to "I'm gonna race. Period," if that's his stance on the subject.

Personally, I think Oliver's probably going to be just fine out there on the grid. He's got some relevant racing experience, some natural talent and a level head--he rides a Ducati, so he must be O.K. :p

He'll learn. Everyone does. I think he's better equipped to deal with the learning process than others though due to his background. And judging by his taste in motorcycles, he'll have some very expensive lessons. It pays to have a run-of-the-mill bike when it comes to scavenging for parts. I should know. :p

[VillageIdiot]

Damn good luck bro...:thumbup


And Damn, I didnt realize so many folks here aspired to racing....Good luck to y'all :thumbup....

[oliver]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
If you're going to do this smartly, I'd suggest taking the defensiveness down a notch or two. If you were to have a horrible accident during your first race and we'd all encouraged you in this thread, knowing what a bloodbath it can be, you'd be pretty pisssed if no one had piped up and said something about how dangerous it can be. You might not like what Sane_Man has to say or how he says it, but it might be the one dissenting comment that saves your hide. Give the negative comments equal weight as the positive, even though it might not be what you want to hear. Being honest with yourself about this is important, Oliver.

I wasn't being defensive for its own sake; I was merely trying to clear up some of Sane-Man's errors in assumption. He wrote, "Until you observed a race first hand, and you can ride a B+ or an A-pace during trackdays, plus do it competitively among other riders in close proximity, I think you are in for a rude awakening." I pointed out, in detail, that I have done all three.

He also told me that I did myself a "huge disservice" in not viewing the actual race. I would have liked to, but obligations here at home prevented me from doing it. That said, I came away with a great deal more information than I had before I checked out the event. Ideal? No. Huge disservice? A bit of a stretch.

Everybody needs to understand that I understand the risks of what I am going to do. I didn't start this thread because I needed help deciding whether or not I should race next season--that part of the equation has been settled. I feel that I am able to do it, so I am going to try, for better or worse.

I know the 650 Twin class will be a bloodbath; that's why it's the class I want to race. In fact, I will be disappointed if it's anything less than completely cutthroat.

For some people, huge challenges with high inherent risks are appealing for the very same reasons many avoid them.

Originally posted by monstermonster
Oliver, you have an open invite to take my other Ninja 250 out to the track sometime when I'm signed up. We can do some sessions together. WFO through Turn 1 at T-Hill on a Ninja 250--while a lot slower than the bigger bikes--is one of the most sphincter-tightening moments you'll ever experience. Then you can have an informed opinion about what constitutes "riding quickly." I'm absolutely serious. Let's do it.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't think about the SV650 class as a starting class, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the others. I learned more in two days of riding on my 250 than in more than a dozen trackdays on an r6. There's a lot to learn there with smaller bikes, and the 'smaller' bike classes are cheaper to run.

Psst -- the 250s run in two classes, too: 250 prod and then in 500 twins or 250 superbike.

You're right; I'm not making a fully-informed decision. I've tracked my big Tuono, ridden a few SV650s, and talked to quite a few racers. Based upon the information that I have, I want to race an SV. I would honestly love to take a Ninja250 out on a track and then decide which class I want to race, but I don't think I have that luxury (unless you want to come out to Infineon next month).

The first go kart I raced had 12hp, while the last one I raced had maybe 45. Quite a few people told me that it was good that I started in a low-hp kart because I wasn't able to "mask" my mistakes with horsepower. I never really bought that. Even when I raced the (relatively) big-horsepower 125cc class, if I missed an apex by six inches I'd get passed by half the field. I couldn't just mask it with horsepower because everybody had horsepower and they weren't making mistakes.

My long-winded point is that while I would probably learn just as much racing Ninja250s as I would racing SV650s, I don't think I would learn more. And having tasted 75lb/ft of torque in my Tuono, a 75% reduction just doesn't sound that fun.

But I could be wrong...see you in a month? :teeth

Seriously, I'm kinda thinking about it.

[uraniaclio]

Originally posted by oliver
I was merely trying to clear up some of Sane-Man's errors in assumption.

Duh...you wouldn't be the first one to notice that. Sane != useful. :teeth

[Feanor]

I very much admire your determination and your willingness to risk what you are, to attain what you could be.

I wish you the best of luck, and know that success (winning) is as much in your head as it is in your bike and body and skill.

I did some bicycle racing in my much younger years and saw several who were extremely talented that fell by the wayside (some literally) because I think they never convinced themselves that they were winning stock, and rarely risked heavily to win, being satisfied with middle placement... I've also seen mediocre cyclists who often posted astounding results because they had so much heart and determination, and truly believed (or convinced themselves) that they were better than anyone else on the road (minus the arrogance)

I would assume in motorcycle racing, the bikes are so close in performance and the riders so similar in physical conditioning and maybe skill, that mental preparation and focus often determines who crosses the line first...

Good luck to you!

Stefan

[EASTcoastRIDAH]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
....--he rides a Ducati, so he must be O.K. :p


hahaha and everyone that drives a BMW must be ok as well :hand




:laughing :twofinger

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by EASTcoastRIDAH
hahaha and everyone that drives an Alfa Romeo Giulietta must be ok as well

If you're going to insinuate that I'm a gold digger, then give me something worth digging for... :cool

Now get off of BARF and go do something that makes your existance a little less worthless, like Googling that car. You won't regret it. ;)

[EASTcoastRIDAH]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
If you're going to insinuate that I'm a gold digger, then give me something worth digging for... :cool

Now get off of BARF and go do something that makes your existance a little less worthless, like Googling that car. You won't regret it. ;)


ok when i do get that car ill give u the first ride...



in the car that is ;)

[Feanor]

As to the cost of racing, I love the quote from the privateer episode of "Superbikes!" (probably the only decent episode of that series so far)

Prospective Racer, "I wanna start racing, how much am I going to spend?'

Veteran Privateer, "How much will you spend? That's easy! Everything!"

Stefan

[VillageIdiot]

yall are nuts :p But I cant wait to see you guys out there. Then I can sit in the stands and say. "Hon, See that knucklehead out there? I talk shit to him on BARF:P" :laughing

[NoGall]

Originally posted by uraniaclio
Duh...you wouldn't be the first one to notice that. Sane != useful. :teeth

Something about pots and kettles... This one really cracks me up.:laughing

[uraniaclio]

Originally posted by NoGall
Something about pots and kettles... This one really cracks me up.:laughing

Let's not digress from the subject on hand. We're not talking about me. :p

[dbenj]

Originally posted by oliver
Incidentally, I did run B+ / A- pace during my two days in Reno.

Hi Oliver. That was an excellent event. Your riding showed a comfort level on the track not typical of first-time trackday participants. Does that mean you are ready for racing? Well, only time will tell. Come to our NRS next month. We will not pass you if we feel you are not ready but I think you have an excellent shot.

I decided to go with an SV as my first race bike too and I'm glad I did. The SV is an excellent platform to start on yet it has plenty of longevity.

I started going to track days 5 or 6 years ago, riding all sorts of bikes, before I decided to race. Funny thing is, I never really had any intention of racing at all. But, when I went to watch the endurance race last year, it looked like so much fun that I wanted to participate! Unfortunately, I've had some mechanical issues this year so I didn't get to complete the season.:( I am definitely looking forward to next year though.

Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing your race reports (and seeing you on the grid!). You'll have a blast.

--David

[kxmike]

Originally posted by oliver
Incidentally, I did run B+ / A- pace during my two days in Reno. I was asked to move into that group on my first day, as a matter of fact. I declined because I was slightly intimidated by the thought of mixing it up with the real racers out there, but I switched for the second day. I spent my last two sessions (30 minutes each) in what was essentially an all-out toes-and-kness-dragging race with another rider...who had over a year's worth of trackdays...and a slightly faster bike...and new slicks to compare with my 3,000-mile-old Metzlers. We passed one another (and a few SV650 race bikes) many, many times. So yes, I can ride at a B+ / A- pace "competitively with other riders."



Oliver, I've found it is easier to run A- speeds at Fernley because it is a tighter track with lots of turns to get down and most of the fast racer guys don't have a lot of time on that track (AFM doesn't race there yet).
I suggest you do a trackday at TH or Infineon before making any decisions. I think you might be surprised at how fast the AFM guys are on one of their "regular" tracks;) .

[CykoKlr]

Originally posted by ABN
yall are nuts :p But I cant wait to see you guys out there. Then I can sit in the stands and say. "Hon, See that knucklehead out there? I talk shit to him on BARF:P" :laughing


LMAO....:laughing :laughing


Only one thing to say is racing is NOTHING like rideing an A pace at a trackday. I learned more in my first few races this year then in 30+ previous trackdays. Good luck and see you at the races.:cool

[CykoKlr]

PS here is a pic without me crashing :laughing :laughing

Stop on by my pits next year and say Hi....#610

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/181/922/2781947-600sbt8.jpg

[oliver]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
PS here is a pic without me crashing :laughing :laughing

Stop on by my pits next year and say Hi....#610

That is a very cool pic!

[TylerW]

Originally posted by oliver
I wasn't being defensive for its own sake; I was merely trying to clear up some of Sane-Man's errors in assumption. He wrote, "Until you observed a race first hand, and you can ride a B+ or an A-pace during trackdays, plus do it competitively among other riders in close proximity, I think you are in for a rude awakening." I pointed out, in detail, that I have done all three.

He also told me that I did myself a "huge disservice" in not viewing the actual race. I would have liked to, but obligations here at home prevented me from doing it. That said, I came away with a great deal more information than I had before I checked out the event. Ideal? No. Huge disservice? A bit of a stretch.

I think the primary body of concern here is the attitude you're taking into this. You're full of enthusiasm and confidence, and to be honest, there's nothing wrong with that. Racing requires a good bit of confidence. You probably already know that.

However, I think the biggest worry is that you seem to be taking things very lightly. And while you do have some racing experience of your own to speak of, its cocky, inexperienced folks that have come into the AFM in the past that have made a big mess of things. And got hurt. And worse, got others hurt. No one wants that, I'm sure you don't either.

Remember that the AFM isn't a bunch of racers with factory rides willing to risk it all for a checkered flag. Its a bunch of very skilled, very talented, very fast and very passionate folks who are out there to compete. Just about everyone has to go to work the next day, usually to support their racing habit, so safety is job one. Speed comes next. The AFM is a club racing organization, and "club" comes before "racing" in that statement for a very important reason.* That's likely one of the biggest differences between the AFM and professional racing.

However, as a regular AFM photographer, I will say that you did yourself a pretty huge disservice by missing the race. I realize you had other obligations so this is beating a dead horse, however, havig the opportunity to be there at the track, to see how the race day goes on, learning when tech is, seeing how the corner workers handle crashes, hearing the accouncements, learning how grid placement works, etc. Will help you immensely on your first race day, when you're likely to be such a bundle of nerves you'll be lucky to remember where your helmet is when its on your head.

Like anything else, the more you know, the better off you are. Best of luck to you, and hope to see you out there next year.


* apologies to Greg Creech

[Go2Trackdays]

Only one thing to say is racing is NOTHING like rideing an A pace at a trackday. I learned more in my first few races this year then in 30+ previous trackdays.[/B]

Maybe you could expand on this a bit for those of us who have only been to trackdays- what kinda stuff did you learn? :teeth

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
LMAO....:laughing :laughing


Only one thing to say is racing is NOTHING like rideing an A pace at a trackday. I learned more in my first few races this year then in 30+ previous trackdays. Good luck and see you at the races.:cool :hand....

No read bro I'll be in the "STANDS":laughing :laughing :laughing

Me race foughgediboudid........

I ain't going out there so I can embarrass myself and my family :laughing.....

*wags finger* Only time you'll see me at the races is picking up take offs for a track day.:p

[CykoKlr]

Originally posted by ABN
:hand....

No read bro I'll be in the "STANDS":laughing :laughing :laughing

Me race foughgediboudid........

I ain't going out there so I can embarrass myself and my family :laughing.....

*wags finger* Only time you'll see me at the races is picking up take offs for a track day.:p

Originally posted by CykoKlr
LMAO....

This part for you being funny!!!!!!


Only one thing to say is racing is NOTHING like rideing an A pace at a trackday. I learned more in my first few races this year then in 30+ previous trackdays. Good luck and see you at the races.

This part for the others comparing B+/A riders at trackdays to raceing.

PS I have take off for sale.....:laughing :laughing

[VillageIdiot]

Good because I was starting to think you were silly :laughing.

What Kind? :teeth.

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
PS here is a pic without me crashing :laughing :laughing




I don't know man, something still doesn't seem right.




.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/181/922/2782042-600sbt8.jpg

[oliver]

Bwaaahahahaha!!!

[stan23]

oliver, go read frong's old posts.

he was just like you.

[VillageIdiot]

with the exception Frong was not a professional motor sports athlete in any realm.

[TylerW]

Originally posted by ABN
with the exception Frong was not a professional motor sports athlete in any realm.

Dead wrong. in his own mind, he was the next Rossi. :laughing

[#1Freak]

Originally posted by Go2Trackdays
Maybe you could expand on this a bit for those of us who have only been to trackdays- what kinda stuff did you learn? :teeth

hard to put into words, in a nutshell, you can go faster everywhere - by breaking harder, driving out of turns faster, being smoother, and carriing more corner speed

maybe you learn cause the faster guy in front of you is towing you along and you expand your idea of what is possible with the bike and your skills

maybe because it is now a full on competition, and subconsiously you are willing to push it harder and learn that you can get away with it.


B

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by TylerW
Dead wrong. in his own mind, he was the next Rossi. :laughing :laughing :laughing :cry :laughing :laughing

[97rr]

Oliver Good luck and have fun. That's what racing is about. Many tend to forget it by justifying it with its danger and expense.

Have fun. If you get a chance, come check out Stockton SMMRC. The racing is just as close, if not closer than on the big bikes, and the cost is much, much more affordable. Oh yeah, and the people are nice too.

Our next race is on 11-5-06

Good luck again,


Ivan

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by TylerW
Dead wrong. in his own mind, he was the next Rossi. :laughing

...but Frong was just about as fond of Ducati riders as Rossi is of Gibernau. :troy

[quasi888]

Originally posted by Go2Trackdays
Maybe you could expand on this a bit for those of us who have only been to trackdays- what kinda stuff did you learn? :teeth

Trackday: I wonder if I can safely make that pass?

Race: A gap! Stuff him!


Trackday: Oh good, timer says we still have 7 minutes to go in this session. I can get 3 more laps in.

Race: Halfway point?! HALFWAY POINT?! When the fuck is this shit gonna be over?!


Trackday: Humming / talking ("relax" / "breathe" / "look up") in helmet.

Race: Screaming in helmet.


Trackday: "Ramon, that motherfucking cocksucker!"

Race: "Ramon, that cocksucking motherfucker!"

[VillageIdiot]

So that means you're probably ready to kill someone coming off the track eh? :laughing

[Mickey_D100]

Originally posted by quasi888
Trackday: I wonder if I can safely make that pass?

Race: A gap! Stuff him!


Trackday: Oh good, timer says we still have 7 minutes to go in this session. I can get 3 more laps in.

Race: Halfway point?! HALFWAY POINT?! When the fuck is this shit gonna be over?!


Trackday: Humming / talking ("relax" / "breathe" / "look up") in helmet.

Race: Screaming in helmet.


Trackday: "Ramon, that fucker!"

Race: "Ramon, that fucker!"

Phenomenal post. :laughing :laughing

[scalvert]

Trackday: hmm, I wonder how the bike will respond if I brake at the next marker, guess I'll work up to it.

Race: I'M NOT BRAKING TILL HE DOES. FUCKER.

Trackday: Damn man, that pass was a bit close.

Race: Sure, you can take my fingers off, but please hold onto them and give them back to me in the paddock.

Trackday: Hmm, I'm a bit nervous today, I'll take it easy and get warmed up.

Race: RED MIST

[Sane_Man]

Originally posted by ABN
with the exception Frong was not a professional motor sports athlete in any realm.

Didn't he used to be a professional Pod Racer on X-box? :teeth

Sorry Oliver.

Every single person was telling you to go for it, but no one said anything contrary except what they thought you wanted to hear. I know that just not anybody can jump on the AFM grid, so by being the one dissenting post, you are now getting real, honest advice.

Amazing.

[oliver]

All,

Please feel free to paint me into any corner you so choose. Just keep in mind that it's difficult to mix the perfect amount of humility, hunger, character, and truthfulness--ONLINE--to make everybody think I'm a wonderful person. Just like everyone else here, I'm likely very much different in person than I appear on this forum. Let's move on.

[scalvert]

Seriously, I'm all for what you're doing. While there is such a thing as _NOT_ ready to race, for most people there really is no such thing as _READY_ to race. In my experience racing is all about facing risk and fear and unknowns straight up. You find a limit, bust through it, and set your sights on the next one. If you're good enough this cycle is not interrupted by healing. If you're not it will be. There's one way to find out.

Given your background I don't have to tell you this, but the Italians are right about one thing: racing is passion. Take the advise of the instructors at your NRS and use their guidance to avoid doing something stupid, but the passion you're showing here is what will carry you forward. If you look at my results I think you can see that I'm not the most passionate person out there by a long shot. It's impressive just how much real heart and effort goes into this club.

My decision to race was one of the hardest and easiest things I've ever done. I KNEW I would race within 30 seconds of seeing bikes on course the first time. Watching the start of 600sb going through T1 at Sears in 2001 a little electric shock went off in my head and I've not been right since. The hard part for me was waiting 4 years until the financial gods would allow me to give it a go. For me it's been a transformative experience on the same scale as what I've seen people go through with becoming parents.

My one piece of advise is this: get to know the AFM better before your first race. More than just the proceedures, the AFM is a CLUB. It helps more than you can imagine to know the people and to know the scene. I strongly recommend doing a race or two as a cornerworker. It's tough, it lets you see things you can't see any other way, it'll give you the proper level of respect for the job the various workers in the AFM do (passion isn't limited to the racers at all), and in all likelyhood it'll give you the lovely chance to deal with watching somebody get hurt then dealing with it. It can suck, but I'd never really trust my decision to race if I hadn't seen it all firsthand.

[quasi888]

Originally posted by ABN
with the exception Frong was not a professional motor sports athlete in any realm.

Whatchoo talkin' bout, fr0ng raced in AMA (http://www.trackdaycentral.com/hosted/frongvideo.wmv)!

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by quasi888
Whatchoo talkin' bout, fr0ng raced in AMA (http://www.trackdaycentral.com/hosted/frongvideo.wmv)! :laughing :cry :laughing

You know what the guy was probably faster than I am so I'll chatta. While I cry from laughter in my office.:laughing :laughing :cry :laughing

[Wrong Way]

Originally posted by quasi888
Whatchoo talkin' bout, fr0ng raced in AMA (http://www.trackdaycentral.com/hosted/frongvideo.wmv)!

:cry :cry :cry

[com3]

Originally posted by quasi888
Trackday: I wonder if I can safely make that pass?
Race: A gap! Stuff him!

Trackday: Oh good, timer says we still have 7 minutes to go in this session. I can get 3 more laps in.
Race: Halfway point?! HALFWAY POINT?! When the fuck is this shit gonna be over?!

Trackday: Humming / talking ("relax" / "breathe" / "look up") in helmet.
Race: Screaming in helmet.

Trackday: "Ramon, that motherfucking cocksucker!"
Race: "Ramon, that cocksucking motherfucker!"

:laughing

oliver... ride the track more. after your first big get-off (probably soon, i'm sorry to say), then decide if you wanna race or not. :thumbup

[stan23]

Oliver, you've been riding for a total of *10* whole months.

Get some more seat time, and then go race..

[uraniaclio]

Originally posted by com3
:laughing

oliver... ride the track more. after your first big get-off (probably soon, i'm sorry to say), then decide if you wanna race or not. :thumbup

Actually this is a very good advice. I've heard a lot of people say this is the litmus test. Highside on turn 1 at t-hill would be a good test. :p

[Holeshot]

Why get more seat time? Fuck it, if you think you're ready, then come out and have some fun! It really doesn't matter. You'll get up to speed, or won't.

I think the previous experience you have will help. I also think you believe in your skills too much based on what others are doing. This is a horrible thing....

Overall, you'll do fine Oliver. Get the SV, and get used to it in the off season. then come out and party with us!

[VillageIdiot]

Then Berto will make fun of you later for being too slow :laughing

[oliver]

Originally posted by com3
:laughing

oliver... ride the track more. after your first big get-off (probably soon, i'm sorry to say), then decide if you wanna race or not. :thumbup

Joe, I appreciate the warning that I'm about to have an "off". Much in the same way I appreciated it the first time you (indirectly) told me a few weeks ago at the track. Much in the same way I appreciated being told as much when I bought my Aprilia. Much in the same way I apprecited hearing it when I bought my first bike, a Ducati. Notice a trend? Someday, someone is going to be right! I hope it's not soon, I hope it doesn't involve anyone else, and I hope it doesn't hurt too badly. This horse was killed some time ago.

Stan23, I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on this one. You wrote the exact same thing back on page one.

Holeshot, thanks. I will enjoy as much track time as I can between now and next year and, well...let the chips fall where they may!

[com3]

Originally posted by oliver
Joe, I appreciate the warning that I'm about to have an "off". Much in the same way I appreciated it the first time you (indirectly) told me a few weeks ago at the track. Much in the same way I appreciated being told as much when I bought my Aprilia. Much in the same way I apprecited hearing it when I bought my first bike, a Ducati. Notice a trend? Someday, someone is going to be right! I hope it's not soon, I hope it doesn't involve anyone else, and I hope it doesn't hurt too badly. This horse was killed some time ago.




eh? i didn't tell you indirectly. i told you outright that you were one of the "chosen ones." in fact, i lost $10 because you didn't crash. :twofinger

[stan23]

Originally posted by oliver
Joe, I appreciate the warning that I'm about to have an "off". Much in the same way I appreciated it the first time you (indirectly) told me a few weeks ago at the track. Much in the same way I appreciated being told as much when I bought my Aprilia. Much in the same way I apprecited hearing it when I bought my first bike, a Ducati. Notice a trend? Someday, someone is going to be right! I hope it's not soon, I hope it doesn't involve anyone else, and I hope it doesn't hurt too badly. This horse was killed some time ago.

Stan23, I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on this one. You wrote the exact same thing back on page one.

Holeshot, thanks. I will enjoy as much track time as I can between now and next year and, well...let the chips fall where they may!

Yes, then God (me) is trying to tell you something.
:)

[K-dog]

Originally posted by com3
in fact, i lost $10 because you didn't crash. :twofinger

Good job nostrodamus. :twofinger

Oliver, subscribed to thread, and I hope to hear more as you find out what happens. i.e. If you do crash, and can't type, you better get someone to dictate to. :thumbup

Oh, and good luck. :)

[oliver]

Originally posted by com3
eh? i didn't tell you indirectly. i told you outright that you were one of the "chosen ones." in fact, i lost $10 because you didn't crash. :twofinger

Hahaha, are you joking? Thanks a lot! [/sarcasm] The real question is, who did you bet? I need to collect my share of that $10 :teeth


I believe the story went something like this...

Christie and I were in your tent, looking at your pics.

Christie: "can we look at the Aprilia Tuono?"

You: "sure hang on.........oh! this is the one I was telling you about!"

Christie: "you mean the one that's about to crash?"

You: "yeah that one!"

Me: "um...that's me dude"


So while it may not have been indirect, it was certainly inadvertent! :twofinger

[Holeshot]

Ah-ha! So this is all over a chick!!!!

[com3]

Originally posted by oliver
Hahaha, are you joking? Thanks a lot! [/sarcasm] The real question is, who did you bet? I need to collect my share of that $10 :teeth


I believe the story went something like this...

Christie and I were in your tent, looking at your pics.

Christie: "can we look at the Aprilia Tuono?"

You: "sure hang on.........oh! this is the one I was telling you about!"

Christie: "you mean the one that's about to crash?"

You: "yeah that one!"

Me: "um...that's me dude"


So while it may not have been indirect, it was certainly inadvertent! :twofinger

i knew that was you, as christie had already told me it was you. :) i do not mince words about anything, ever, to anyone. :D

[JnglstTICAL]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ah-ha! So this is all over a chick!!!!

hahahha...isnt it always? :twofinger

[Christieland]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ah-ha! So this is all over a chick!!!!
Hey now, don't drag me into this! All I did was offer up some room in my trailer to a dude I thought might enjoy a track day. Little did I know I'd be creating a monster! :hand

:laughing

[com3]

Originally posted by JnglstTICAL
hahahha...isnt it always? :twofinger


it was actually all over YOU, hotrod.

[oliver]

Originally posted by karayzieho
Hey now, don't drag me into this! All I did was offer up some room in my trailer to a dude I thought might enjoy a track day. Little did I know I'd be creating a monster! :hand

:laughing

You owe me five bucks!

[Holeshot]

You guys should do a three-way conference masturbation call....

[trkdydumper]

if you really wanna race just go out on any given sunday and bounce off the rev limiter any time you see a bike esp while stopped at intersections. Good luck racing!

[Snoggin]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
PS here is a pic without me crashing :laughing :laughing

Stop on by my pits next year and say Hi....#610

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/181/922/2781947-600sbt8.jpg

Damn man , It acgtually looks like you know what you are doing ! woo hoo you made alot of progress this year Ramon

[Snoggin]

Oliver, I think you should go for it. I started riding on the track in 2004 and raced the first six wekends in 2005. i did a total of 18 races and quit for personal reasons. It was the most badassed exciting thing i have ever done and I will cherish the memories forever or until i race again. Formula 50? I didnt suck either but I did have about 30 trackdays under my belt. But i also never rode a bike till 2002 and with your previous experience on the track you will be fine as that is the biggest issue. the psychological. They have the Clubman sereies you have to go thru first too which will tel you if you are ready or not for the main grid. Not so last year. Its better this way for sure because there are /were way too many SLOW people out there on the track during the races. Good luck

[Christieland]

Originally posted by Holeshot
You guys should do a three-way conference masturbation call....
Berto, gross! You're such a pervert!

Originally posted by oliver

You owe me five bucks!

Hmm, I forget, what for?

[Holeshot]

Oh shit, it was you!!!!

Oliver, just go race. You'll like it.

[Feanor]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
PS here is a pic without me crashing :laughing :laughing

Stop on by my pits next year and say Hi....#610

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/181/922/2781947-600sbt8.jpg

The gentleman behind you #893 is Mark McKinney. I know him, a very nice guy!

Stefan

[Moike]

(shrug)

What real input do I have? Who knows...

I grew up in a racing family. Four wheels, dirt racing. Baylands
Raceway in Fremont was a second home to me. Sprint cars,
American Stock, all on dirt... all going fast, all turning left.

Prior to 1998 I was 'fast' in the hills... and a 'regular' on the hill.

I'd purchased a MC-21 NSR 250 SP with a full HRC kit that was
the personal racebike of a local race tuner that I'd met on the hill.
The intention was that I wanted something light that had
handling and braking a priority over power and top speed.

The only thing I knew about prepping the bike for racing was
what he had told me, and what I'd poured over the rulebook
reading in the weeks prior to that day in April.

Not having ever been to an AFM race, or any race... I thumbed
through the rulebook and saw "Formula II, 250cc Two Stroke" and
ticked it off on my very first race sign up sheet. Thinking in my
head if I passed the NRS, that was my race, since that was my
bike.

I'd never even been to a real race that took place on an asphalt
roadcourse before showing up for New Riders School at
Sears Point in April of 1996. I'd only ever seen races on TV.
I'd never so much as ridden a motorcycle on the track. CLASS
and Keith Code were the only game in town in those days. The
soonest session of CLASS I could get scheduled in on was for
two weeks -after- my NRS/Race weekend.

I made it through NRS, I made it through my late afternoon
Saturday Practice, and I made it through Sunday morning Practice.

The race was a unique experience that I'll take to my grave.

All I know was that somehow I got gridded on the left side of
the seventh row. I remember checking this several times on the
paperwork before I wrote it on my tape and sticking it on my
triple clamp because it didn't seem right. As I sat there in my
grid spot after the warmup lap I remember looking behind me
and seeing the entire cast and crew of Mad Max on two stroke
bikes looking very pissed off at -me- for about the next 15 or
so rows back through a blue haze of two-stroke smoke.
Yellow plates were few and far between. I remember my
ass trying to claw a hole through my leathers and make for the
pit wall.

The green flag dropped and I 'launched' my NSR. But I guess I
should have practiced that first a few times because the bikes
around me took off like they were shot out of cannons. I kept
my knees and elbows tucked in, teeth gritted, and waited for the
impact from behind that never came while trying to get the NSR
WFO and into turn 1. By the time I got up to turn 2 most the
bodies had been dragged off the track or crawled off on their
own. I was able to pick my way around the turf divots and bikes
that were scattered on the track all the way up to turn four.
I thought I was going to be sick.

The next two laps were uneventful. I made my way around the
track as fast as I could with nobody at all around me. Of course
I had no idea at the time what a 'backmarker' was, or that I was
one, or what was in store for me in my very immediate future.

After coming out of the carousel and heading down the back
straight I was under attack by a dozen high speed plastic
missles. Trying to lean into turn 7 I found myself suddenly
distracted because someone kept yelling "JESUS FUCKING
CHRIST" in my helmet and it was throwing my rhythm off. Trying
to make it out of 7 and into 8 I found myself being used as a
berm so other racers could get a better drive out of the corner.
I made it through 9 and leaned over into 10 as fast as I dared
and as tight to the inside as possible, I swear my knee was on
the candystripe. I didn't want anyone smacking me in 10. Then
a bike went by me on the inside of 10, I swear it was in the dirt,
and I think it had knobbies because something hit my shoulder.

I hated turn 11 (the old turn 11) at Sears Point. It's surface
made Alba Road look good. And now I was trying to brake into
it faster than I'd ever done, way off my normal line because I was
in a stack of bikes that were either going faster, stopping faster,
or close enough to me that I thought they were trying to adjust
my ballsack for me midcorner. Somehow I made it out of 11 and
through the haybale chicane, back across the slick-ass drag strip
down the front straight to start the whole process over again as
I headed uphill into turn 1.

This process of me being used as a skipping stone into a corner,
jostled midcorner, a convenient berm on exit, getting passed at
mach 6 in places where I swore there was no possible way for
a FII bike let alone a feeler gauge to slide by me on the inside of
a corner continued for the next couple laps. I got a lull for about
a lap which allowed me to catch my breath, and then the attack
came again like a tidal surge till I finally saw a checkered flag.

My once white NSR-250 looked like a half-sucked jawbreaker back
in the pits. But I made it through my first race by sheer luck and
stupidity. It's not the last time I raced Formula II, and ever since
that very first race I've never had fear of being passed in close
quarters or making a confident close quarters pass.

Things I learned...

~ Deciding to go race is great, you can only learn so much from
books. Go to a track and actually watch -all- the classes race so
you know exactly what you're getting into. This is really helpful
when it comes to what classes are gridded together for the same
race. I wish I'd actually attended an AFM event as a spectator
prior to NRS. BARF and forums in general didn't exist back then.

~ I got very lucky buying the NSR. In that instance the research
I did and going with my gut to start small paid off. Starting on a
small lightweight bike that had corner speeds and traction limits
far outside of my skill level really paid off. But, it's a good thing
I'm a decent mechanic. Two-strokes require lots of love to run
well, and should not be run by the mechanically disenfranchised.

~ Racing is expensive. I think I easily spent 10 large my first real
season on parts, fees, hotels, food, gas, suspension, gear, race
specific gear, misc crap. I had no sponsors. I didn't know people
would give you money or stuff at a discount. Sponsors are cool.

~ The AFM is a 'club' and it's only 'club level' racing. But that
brotherhood and gentlemanly conduct went out the window
when the green flag dropped. Don't fool yourself for a second by
thinking -everybody- is out there just for fun and has it in their
head that it's not professional racing. Quite a few people do, but
there are some -serious- competitors out there who have no
druthers about smacking into other riders or doing whatever it
takes to gain a position. There are also 'competitors' out there
who think they're at that top level, are not, never will be, yet still
ride like they're in MotoGP and have late stage terminal cancer.

There are rules in place to take those kinds of riders out, and
they tend to remove themselves. But it always seemed for
every one removed, two were reborn in their place.

Oliver:
You're in luck that you have some prior race experience, so you
know the paperwork drill, tech inspection, and the BS. Motorcycle
racing is a different beast, and I'd advise that you check your
head any time you feel any sense of overconfidence at all.
At least for the first few race weekends or till you get your
white plate.

Get something light with a high corner speed to start on. And
whatever you get, make sure you'd feel totally comfortable
setting it on fire and walking away from it without any sense of
monetary loss. Riding skills, suspension, and everything that
makes good suspension work even better are paramount.
A big/tightly tuned motor that makes up for your ability to suck
in the corners on the straights is a waste of resources.

(shrug)

I could be full of crap for all I know, I don't race two-wheeled
bikes any more these days. Whatever you do, have fun at it.

http://moike.net/irc-moto/moike4-12-98.jpg

-Mike-

[oliver]

Mike,

Thanks for the well-written, well-thought out, interesting, informative post. I really do appreciate it.

[CykoKlr]

With every word I read I could feel my first race all over again. What a rush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best response. Just do it.....................

[Sharky]

Great post Moike!

[Joebar4000]

Oliver, only met you briefly, but I think you should go for it :)

You've already had stacks of advice and you raced cars before ferrcrissakes, so I don't have much to add, except you'll go faster spending money on suspension and tires than motor mods. Ideally, enter a production class where it's cheaper to be competitive and there are more cheap parts on Ebay...

Good luck :thumbup

[Mickey_D100]

Mojo if I had it Moike. :thumbup

[grimlock]

Thats great! Gool luck, and remember, practice practice practice makes you faster.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by CykoKlr
With every word I read I could feel my first race all over again. What a rush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My first race was a rush also...



...a rush to the hospital for a laceration and light concussion after a multi-bike pileup in the old Sears Point Turn 12 haybale chicane!

[Enchanter]

There is a lot of good info in this thread.

Oliver, your past experiences have given you a real good idea about racing (including the added concentration required when racing open-wheel cars), so you are ahead of the game in that respect. I'd suggest that this: Originally posted by oliver
It's okay to crash; that's how you find the limit. doesn't apply to motorcycles. Is someone more likely to crash on the track? Um, I dunno. Are there less repercussions to a track crash than a street crash? Eh, it could go either way. Will a crash at the track result in less injury? I dunno about that either. If I was going to crash and could choose where, would I rather crash at the track than on the street? OH HELL YEAH! I just don't see it as okay.

What do you other racers think about it? Is it okay to crash at the track?

Holeshot?
MrCrash907?
Moike?
JnglstTICAL?
afm199?

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
My first race was a rush also...



...a rush to the hospital for a laceration and light concussion after a multi-bike pileup in the old Sears Point Turn 12 haybale chicane! With stories like this people wonder why I won't race? :wtf......



Enchanter I can tell you what mikey think of crashing look at my sig line :laughing

[Christieland]

Originally posted by Enchanter
I just don't see it as okay.

Mikey (MrCrash907) just this morning told me about all of the track fatalities he's witnessed in recent years. Pretty damned profound. I'm looking forward to his answer to this, as well as Holeshot's and JnglstTICAL's, two racers I know who seem to have been at it for a while with no serious damage to their bodies (their minds are another story :laughing ).

[oliver]

Originally posted by Enchanter
There is a lot of good info in this thread.

Oliver, your past experiences have given you a real good idea about racing (including the added concentration required when racing open-wheel cars), so you are ahead of the game in that respect. I'd suggest that this: doesn't apply to motorcycles. Is someone more likely to crash on the track? Um, I dunno. Are there less repercussions to a track crash than a street crash? Eh, it could go either way. Will a crash at the track result in less injury? I dunno about that either. If I was going to crash and could choose where, would I rather crash at the track than on the street? OH HELL YEAH! I just don't see it as okay.

What do you other racers think about it? Is it okay to crash at the track?

Holeshot?
MrCrash907?
Moike?
JnglstTICAL?
afm199?

I had a feeling someone would unearth this debate from several months ago. I believe that it started with somebody saying, "crashing is not learning; crashing is failure" or something to that effect, with which I disagreed.

I've given it some thought over the last several days though (since I had a feeling it would turn up sooner or later in this thread) and feel that there are two ways to interpret that statement:

1) crashing is just what happens when you find yourself on the other side of the limits of adhesion. It's inherent in a sport with an objective of riding a motorcycle faster than your competition.

2) crashing obviously is failure since it is never someone's intention to do it.

So while the (literally) accurate statement could be made that crashing = failure (since it wasn't the objective), I feel that it is a forgivable mistake and an integral part of the learning experience. As racers get more and more experienced, crashing becomes a greater and greater failure (at least in the eyes of his competitors) however. I would expect other riders to not look too kindly upon someone who dumps it on the out lap of practice; or worse, someone who does it every weekend. But the occasional mistake happens. Crashing is part of racing, even for the world's best.

Is it ever "okay" though? I guess I should have clarified "okay" a little bit further. Encouraged? No. Acceptable? Yes, it has to be.

[Holeshot]

Crashing...ahhhhhh....

Crashing sucks, and it happens. It's total failure, but things can be learned from it, depending on what kind of crash it was. There are stupid crashes and in fact, alot are that way. Certainly not figuring out what caused a crash is a poor road to take.

But, and this is a big but, I've only crashed in practice twice. It took actually getting to the grid to increase them more, cause you're just really putting yourself out there as is everyone else and incidents do happen. But never plan to crash....that's just bad. I didn't start crashing until I hit my latest speed plateau, so it took a whole four years racing to have any sort of signifigant crashes (sorry, I don't believe a tipover in T11 at Sears as signifigant). If you're piling the bike alot the first two years, you need to think about what's going on.

[Enchanter]

Learning is a choice. Just because someone crashes, doesn't mean they learned anything. Can someone learn without crashing? If the answer is yes, then I guess that crashing isn't an integral part of learning. A visit to the local Starbucks, or a stop at Alice's will yield more than a few riders that have learned nothing from their (sometimes multiple) crashes. Can you learn from crashing? Yes. Do you have to crash to learn? No.

I'd agree that the accepting the risk that I could crash on the track (or street) is okay. Stating that crashing is an acceptable portion of the learning process is something different altogether.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Learning is a choice. Just because someone crashes, doesn't mean they learned anything. Can someone learn without crashing? If the answer is yes, then I guess that crashing isn't an integral part of learning. A visit to the local Starbucks, or a stop at Alice's will yield more than a few riders that have learned nothing from their (sometimes multiple) crashes. Can you learn from crashing? Yes. Do you have to crash to learn? No.

I'd agree that the accepting the risk that I could crash on the track (or street) is okay. Stating that crashing is an acceptable portion of the learning process is something different altogether.

Enchanter,

The one thing you don't seem to be considering is that you can't win a race while riding at "a trip to Starbucks" pace. While you can learn how to shift, not roll back on hills, shift your weight, and more during your trip to Starbucks, you're not going to learn how to qualify on pole at Laguna. When that becomes your objective, crashing becomes a slightly more palatable offense.

[christofu]

There is a very different answer to 'Is crashing OK' for racing versus trackday/practice.

It's NEVER 'OK' to crash. But a trackday/practice crash is moronic (yes, including myself for the rare occasions that I've done that).

Crashing during racing is more... the result of a problem that was not immediately correctable. Assuming you're not an out of control asshat, that is. In the ZZ NRS, the entire classroom section about crashing starts with this statement:

"If you race, you will crash"

Eventually, every racer crashes. It's not 'OK' but it is still a fact that requires either acceptance or a of lot DFL (Dead Fuckin' Last) finishes.

Oliver, go join the grid.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by oliver
Enchanter,

The one thing you don't seem to be considering is that you can't win a race while riding at "a trip to Starbucks" pace. While you can learn how to shift, not roll back on hills, shift your weight, and more during your trip to Starbucks, you're not going to learn how to qualify on pole at Laguna. When that becomes your objective, crashing becomes a slightly more palatable offense.

No, I am considering it. The fact that we have chosen to ride a motorcycle at all, shows that we have accepted the risk that we may crash. It could be part of the ride we take today, or anyday, street, or track. This is totally different than accepting crashing as an integral part of learning.

Does pushing for a pole position raise the chances (risk) of crashing? For some people I would agree, for others, I don't think so. The fastest guys on track crash less than the rest, so I don't think that your example above 'works' here.

I think that you and I are in agreement that crashing is a risk that racers accept, they know it can happen, and plan for it (spares, 2nd bike). I think that where you and I might be getting hung up is my use of the word "unacceptable" when talking about crashes. I mean it more like Berto and Solis do: "failure". I think that after many years of teaching, I have stopped using the word 'failure'. Just saying that word really stresses out some people.

[oliver]

Originally posted by christofu
Oliver, go join the grid.

I'm about to. I forgot to update everyone since I was so busy trying to prove myself worthy of writing this thread, but I signed up for Zoom Zoom's New Racer School this morning. It will take place November 26th at Thunderhill.

I'm scheduled to look at two SV650S's this week; one street bike and one (lightly crashed) racebike. How light is "lightly"? I'm not sure, but I'll let y'all know when I see it. I would like to run my new bike during the New Racer School since it sounds like Zoom Zoom provides as much track time (if not more) as it would during a normal trackday. However, acquiring a bike and getting it track ready within one month is a pretty optimistic goal, so I may end up running the Aprilia again. We'll see what the next few days reveal.

[quasi888]

However, acquiring a bike and getting it track ready within one month is a pretty optimistic goal

If by "track-ready" you mean, prepped such that it would pass AFM tech, that is not a requirement for taking NRS. Plenty of folks have passed NRS on street bikes.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Does pushing for a pole position raise the chances (risk) of crashing? For some people I would agree, for others, I don't think so. The fastest guys on track crash less than the rest, so I don't think that your example above 'works' here.

Do you think those fastest guys didn't crash earlier in their career? Of course they did...a LOT. They didn't learn how to ride a pole-position pace on their way to Starbucks; they learnt it by "failing" many, many times.

I think we can leave it at this: I don't want to crash, and I'll try not to. Should it happen and assuming I'm physically able, I will still look myself in the mirror the next day though.

[JnglstTICAL]

Originally posted by Holeshot

Crashing sucks, and it happens. It's total failure, but things can be learned from it

I completely agree. I'm not one to say crashing is a part of the learning process at all - but I will say learning from your mistakes is part of the learning process, and/or the path to being a succesfull racer, and more often crashing is a mistake made and/or a failure that's for sure.

[JnglstTICAL]

One another note. When you take NRS, go at it with an open mind. Be a newbie, cause you are. Forget your car racing experience - because really, only a few small things transfer over to riding a bike around a track, fast, and racing a bike. And like Moike said, as soon as you are feeling overconfident, put yourself in check.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Enchanter
Can you learn from crashing? Yes. Do you have to crash to learn? No.

Agreed. I like to discourage it though, which is why I came up with the line that ABN uses in his .sig file.

Sure, crashing is learning - the hard way. There are easier ways, especially if you're patient.

Which is the best advice I really have for someone who wants to race - be patient. I've always looked at racing as a test of my skills - why wouldn't I want to analytically and methodically build and hone my skillset before entering what can be a very hostile arena?

You have all the opportunity in the world to practice these days, with providers like Zoom Zoom, Keigwins, and Pacific Tracktime offering a combined total of well over 100 days a year. And each of those providers have instructors available to help you hone those skills and elevate your riding to the next level.

You know what caught the attention of a lot of people was when you said "I want to win." There are a lot of people on this board who have dedicated themselves to the same goal by attending hundreds of trackdays, investing in the best suspension componentry, going to the best schools, the most well-known engine builders - and many of them haven't even accomplished that same goal you just set. And that's after your first trackday!

I talked to some people at the event who saw you ride, and they said you went well for a new rider. One of them noticed you used a lot of lean angle to achieve those speeds, and that you weren't getting off the bike at all. Things like that should be polished out as much as possible before you enter a competitive environment.

Also, in the 6 years I've been working with riders on the track, I've noticed that street riders initially take really well to the tighter, slower corners, which Reno Fernley is littered with. Not to say you won't get a hang of other tracks and the challenges they provide, but you'll find a whole new set of challenges when you make it to the other tracks - ones which might take a bit more time to adapt to.

I'm not sure what the speed was like that day, but at other tracks you will probably be exposed to a new level of speed, and you'll be sharing the track with more racers - many of whom don't bother going to Reno as it's farther out and not part of the AFM schedule.

With the information that's available to you, a lot of the guesswork is removed. Once you get your hands on a dedicated track bike, you can do a trackday at Thunderhill, get some laptimes, and know where you stand. Lots of people will make plenty of assumptions - but if you can demonstrate that you're doing laptimes that will put you in the top half of the Clubman finishers (and you have that information available to you on the AFM website as well as my unofficial-afm.com website), and instructors have pointed out that you looked safe, smooth, and in control while you did it, your detractors won't have much to say.

Good luck and have fun!

[christofu]

Originally posted by quasi888
If by "track-ready" you mean, prepped such that it would pass AFM tech, that is not a requirement for taking NRS. Plenty of folks have passed NRS on street bikes.

... but not at the Zoom Zoom NRS. At ZZ we STRONGLY encourage you to attend with the bike you're planning to race, prepped to race standard. STRONGLY encourage. To the point of hinting that you're not even close to ready to race if you don't even have a bike ready.

We provide a LOT of instruction and a LOT of it is tailored specifically to your bike type. Also we show you what needs fixing when we tech your bike to the letter of AFM Tech law.

[Kaju65]

Just want to say I think this is turning out to be a great thread and I look forward to reading about your progress Oliver:thumbup

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by oliver
Do you think those fastest guys didn't crash earlier in their career? Of course they did...a LOT. They didn't learn how to ride a pole-position pace on their way to Starbucks; they learnt it by "failing" many, many times.



Actually Oliver, most crashed later in their career, at least in the club level. In the AMA, crashing just happens...

Also, the best advice I can give you is to PM TWF (Zoran) and ask him about bikes for sale. He's the Twin Works owner and the guy you should buy a bike from. Buy one race prepped, don't worry too much if it's been down. Budget for Gerry to straighten it if it has (About $700).

[oliver]

Originally posted by MrCrash907
I talked to some people at the event who saw you ride, and they said you went well for a new rider. One of them noticed you used a lot of lean angle to achieve those speeds, and that you weren't getting off the bike at all. Things like that should be polished out as much as possible before you enter a competitive environment.

Also, in the 6 years I've been working with riders on the track, I've noticed that street riders initially take really well to the tighter, slower corners, which Reno Fernley is littered with. Not to say you won't get a hang of other tracks and the challenges they provide, but you'll find a whole new set of challenges when you make it to the other tracks - ones which might take a bit more time to adapt to.

So you're Mike Solis! You and I emailed each other a few times after I won the Keigwins trackday through your raffle. I chickened out and ended up giving the voucher to someone else, but it's good to now be able to put a "BARF" face with the name.

Anyway, you are right. I was riding in the most ridiculously upright riding position imaginable--and I knew it. Near the end of my first day, I came in and told one of the instructors (Lisa) that I felt like I was nearing the limits of what the tires could do and that I was scaring myself. She told me that I needed to get off the bike more (which I knew), and critically, how much to get off the bike (which I didn't know) by saying me this: "butt crack on the edge of the seat!"

That little tidbit of information is what finally quantified what I knew I had to do, and it allowed me to show up Sunday morning a completely different rider. I went from touching my knee ONCE and feeling fairly dangerous doing it, to dragging my knee, at will, in any corner I chose! I still feel indebted to her. Here are two pics, one from Saturday and one from Sunday, to illustrate:

Saturday
http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/105208857-M.jpg

Sunday
http://oliverrowen.smugmug.com/photos/103083761-M.jpg

I kid you not, the only difference between those two pics is "butt crack on the edge of the seat!" Everything fell into place after that. I still need to work on getting my upper body further off the bike, but at least I have a starting point now and don't always feel like I'm using 100% of the tire.

You're the second person to say that Reno is an easy track to learn, so I'll assume you're both right. We'll see how I do at Thunderhill next month, which I understand is, um...fast.

Originally posted by Kaju65
Just want to say I think this is turning out to be a great thread and I look forward to reading about your progress Oliver:thumbup

Thanks Kaju65. Hopefully I won't let y'all down!

Originally posted by Holeshot
Also, the best advice I can give you is to PM TWF (Zoran) and ask him about bikes for sale. He's the Twin Works owner and the guy you should buy a bike from. Buy one race prepped, don't worry too much if it's been down. Budget for Gerry to straighten it if it has (About $700).

Interesting. One of the more promising candidates I'm looking at is an '03 SV650S with a Twin Works Factory engine already in it. The bike seems to be fully race-prepared, but I'll find more this weekend. It's also been low-sided but again, I'll find out more when I see it. Who is this Gerry character? Thanks Holeshot.

[com3]

oooh ooh@ sexy pics, oliver! :teeth

also, another thing you HAVE to do is get your upper body over more. outside arm straight, inside elbow pointed straight down, shoulders rotated into the turn, lead with your face.

:thumbup

[com3]

mmm..sexy... and be sure to wink at the cam when you pass by the photog. :D

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/181/922/2785417-wink-wink.jpg

[MAXX LEAN]

Originally posted by oliver
One of the more promising candidates I'm looking at is an '03 SV650S with a Twin Works Factory engine already in it. The bike seems to be fully race-prepared, but I'll find more this weekend. It's also been low-sided but again, I'll find out more when I see it. Who is this Gerry character? Thanks Holeshot.

The bike you are looking at is pretty well set up and wont need much to get it back on the track. :cool
Gerry Piazza is a fellow racer and one of the nicest guys in the paddock. He also happens to be one of the best frame and wheel (http://www.gpframeandwheel.com) guys I've met.:teeth

Hope to see you on the 26th. :thumbup

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ABN
With stories like this people wonder why I won't race? :wtf......


+1

Old bones take longer to mend, as well...

:cry

[Rek3030]

wow, wish I could say the same. Well I can say it, just cant do it.

Well, good luck.


:barf

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by oliver
So you're Mike Solis! You and I emailed each other a few times after I won the Keigwins trackday through your raffle. I chickened out and ended up giving the voucher to someone else, but it's good to now be able to put a "BARF" face with the name.

Oh yeah! The URL to your website rings a bell.

Anyway, you are right. I was riding in the most ridiculously upright riding position imaginable--and I knew it. Near the end of my first day, I came in and told one of the instructors (Lisa) that I felt like I was nearing the limits of what the tires could do and that I was scaring myself. She told me that I needed to get off the bike more (which I knew), and critically, how much to get off the bike (which I didn't know) by saying me this: "butt crack on the edge of the seat!"

Butt crack off the seat and knee on the ground is just the first step! Eventually, you'll refinine your body position to get the most out of your riding, developing your ability to feel and control the bike once it's past the limits of adhesion.

Perhaps you're well on your way there already - I'm not sure, I wasn't there. But developing a feel for what the bike is doing and training your body to properly respond to and recover from things once you're past the limits of adhesion takes time. I cleanly got through the trackdays / track schools I did before I went racing, but the additional intensity of competition intensified my riding faults, and put me on the ground. Multiple times.

It sounds like you've already got a head start on a lot of people, as your experience racing cars probably helps you develop a game plan to negotiate your way around the track. Lots of newer riders just go by the seat of their pants - adding midcorner speed until they're past the limits of adhesion and on the ground.

You're the second person to say that Reno is an easy track to learn, so I'll assume you're both right. We'll see how I do at Thunderhill next month, which I understand is, um...fast.

I can't say that it's easy to learn, but I have noticed that aggressive street riders find their comfort zone quickly in slower corners. Without the excessive speed, they're comfortably getting into the corner and using lots of lean angle.

Those same corners are the ones that most new riders crash in. There's nothing particularly tricky about negotiating Turn 11 at Thunderhill, but the approach speed is reasonable and the midcorner speed is low, making it less intimidating to someone used to street speeds. Remove that fear factor and riders will push the limit sooner and further than they otherwise would, often ending up on the ground.

Given that, Turn 11 is probably the single most common turn for C riders to crash. 5 and 14 are also common places to crash. Coincidentally, those are the three slowest corners on the track.

Interesting. One of the more promising candidates I'm looking at is an '03 SV650S with a Twin Works Factory engine already in it. The bike seems to be fully race-prepared, but I'll find more this weekend. It's also been low-sided but again, I'll find out more when I see it. Who is this Gerry character? Thanks Holeshot.

It's not so much the engine, but the chassis that makes a developed racebike ideal for the new racer. If you did the development yourself, you could literally be riding around in circles out there, wondering why the hell people are getting into and out of corners faster than you are. Why people are holding tighter lines and driving out while you're floating wide. Why people can enter corners harder while your bike