Today I was *that guy*

[Trogdor]

So today we were all packed up and on our way to Thunderhill when the first rain started falling; a couple of hours earlier than inaccuweather predicted.

After the NRS meeting, we break out into groups with our instructors. Everybody says 'don't worry about speed. Just worry about technique. Nobody is going fast today!' As we get out onto the track, it starts raining pretty hard. I follow my instructor around for a couple of laps till he waves me past going up to 9. So I do another lap and occassionally look back for the instructor, but don't see him at all anymore. I pull into the hot pits and wait for a while. When Pete comes over and asks who I am waiting for I tell him, and he says 'I think he crashed in 12.' Um. OK. It was close to the end of the session anyway. Plus I was cold at this point. So I go in and hang out till the classroom portion of NRS starts.

Midway through the classroom session Sean announces that there will be no on-course evaluation today. With good reason. It is pretty much a downpour at this point. We all elect to just sit out all our sessions and work through all the classroom material with the hopes that the weather will be nicer later in the afternoon. And that seemed like a good plan.

So 3pm rolls around. The track is completely empty, and we all get out of the classroom. The rain has stopped, but the pavement is still drenched. Blaise convinces me to get back into my leathers. And it is damn cold!

About six of us hit the track. I am taking it really slow since it is wet and I have cold tires now. Coming out of 13 I feel my rear spin up. I thought 'wow, I didn't realize I gave it that much throttle'. But this is also where some of the other people high-sided today. I pat myself on my back for recovering and continue on. Going into 14 my bike is all over the place. I end up going really wide to maintain control, and I think this can't be right. The bike is sliding all over the place. I look around to make sure nobody is following then make a bee line to the hot pits, after raising my hand, of course. As soon as I can I pull over to the wall and look at the bike. My lower fairing is full of frothy oil. Ummmm, that is bad.

So Blaise comes by, and I wave him over. I say 'I just dropped all my oil'. He says 'yeah, I crashed in it.' Oh, that sucks. At this point I can see the track is red-flagged. I push my bike in to try and figure out what happened.

The bike has oil all over. I actually had it on my left leg and boot. It is on the outside of the upper fairing, my rear tire, the undertail, the rear set, just all over. It looked like something just exploded. This is a brand new GSXR 750 with sharkskins. The lower fairing is doing its job holding about 2 quarts of oil. We pull that off and start looking for things that might be leaking. Finally we find a busted gasket on the new oil filter. We speculate about all sorts of reasons that might of happened, but I am sure it is something that I did wrong.

Then word comes in that three more people went down in my mess. I say 'At least there were only four people on the track.' Blaise says 'yes, but they all went down.'

So, today I was that guy, the one who oiled the track and ruined it for everbody else. It was the end of the day and most people had left, so we didn't really lose track time. But four people went down in my oil, and that really sucks.

[joe]

that does suck, dude... On the bright side, like you said, it was a cold, rainy day, and at least there were only so many people on the track to ride in your wake of terror.

[ReptilianRage]

My bike barely looks like it went down at all. I have to say, the Vortex rearsets and Sharkskinz really did their job. After I took my fun slide on the pavement, I just walked over, picked my bike up, looked it over and rode off. No broken levers or anything. Just some scuffs on the bodywork (very minor), a somewhat ground down footpeg, and kinda ground down stator cover that I have to replace anyway for AFM.

What really sucked was going into the turn, absolutely sure that I was good, and then *whing*, the bike is out from under me. I spent a minute wondering what the hell I could have done wrong... until I found Dave in the pit lane, drooling oil all over the place. I was the first person after Dave - no flags, and no visible indications at that point that oil had been barfed all over the place. Ah well, very little harm done to the bike, and none to me. Can't say as much for the 749 that went down with stock bodywork, mirrors, etc. Poor guy.

I'm happy to say that from everything I heard, nobody was hurt.

[Trogdor]

And Blaise's bike was another brand new GSXR 750. Sorry bro. Although it really does have the least damage I have ever seen on a lowsided bike.

[ReptilianRage]

It's a start on making up for the other bikes that I've completely exploded. A minor dent in my impressive tally. Your new nickname is "The Oiler." :teeth

[Kid]

Oh man.
Sorry to Blaise and everyone who got cought in the mess. That is really too bad.

And, i know dave really feels bad about it and knows he might have made the mistake.

Keep your heads up because everyone walked away from it and at the end of the day, nothing more matters.

dang it
tough day at the office

[buellistic]

o well it happens .. sliped 4 times .stayed up.saw intructor
go down.+ 3 more.it happens.kept clear of oil.you could see it clearly . rain cleared later.faster speeds next time.................

[675 Trip]

There were at least three more of us who stopped under the black flag, red flag sequence who didn't go down.

I think the last two downed riders may have been helped(hindered) by a little confusion over flags and what you should do when you see them.

I understand a debris flag was up and instead of proceeding cautiously, one rider braked too quickly and too much and his friend behind him may have fixated a touch and grabbed too much brake as well resulting in two bikes sliding a good ways up from the midpoint between 10 and 11 to the turn in 11. Too bad as I had just been thinking the two of them were picking up the pace and maybe we could all pick it up a bit.

I know the second rider is not on barf yet, not sure about the 1st.

relatively minor damage considering... two of us lucky ones who were in NRS and trying to get a little track time started talking about how we got lucky to get the wakeup call that it really was time to call it a day and those squirrelly moments around every corner can bring some significant damage.

The third lucky guy was a C group rider and it was nice that he didn't get bit. it looked like only two of the bikes had significant damage from that incident. I think there was more damage in the first session of the day.

one instructor and at least two students went down that session.

Can't wait to finish NRS at sears point on the 6th.

[ReptilianRage]

Originally posted by 675 Trip
I understand a debris flag was up and instead of proceeding cautiously, one rider braked too quickly and too much and his friend behind him may have fixated a touch and grabbed too much brake as well resulting in two bikes sliding a good ways up from the midpoint between 10 and 11 to the turn in 11.
Yeah, that kinda thing unfortunately happens once in a while. Though the oil may have contributed to the 'braking too hard' thing. Oh well, no use beating a dead horse, I guess.

Trip, Trogdor and I were the ones pitted right next to you. We tied our canopies together. We'll be seeing you on the 6th for sure!

-Blaise

[ALANRIDER7]

I have never seen an oil filter O-ring fail.

I have seen O-ring failure when the previous filter's O-ring is stuck to the block and the new filter goes on top of it, doubling up the O-rings and guaranteeing failure when the oil pressure builds to a certain point and blows out past the second O-ring.

If the filter was not torqued properly, it's possible it can back off and start leaking oil that way.

I am curious as to what you find when you take things apart. Please let us know the outcome.

[purluv420]

It also happened to Dave Moss on his triumph during Saturday practice with a K&N, is that what is on this bike?

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
I have never seen an oil filter O-ring fail.

I have seen O-ring failure when the previous filter's O-ring is stuck to the block and the new filter goes on top of it, doubling up the O-rings and guaranteeing failure when the oil pressure builds to a certain point and blows out past the second O-ring.

If the filter was not torqued properly, it's possible it can back off and start leaking oil that way.

I am curious as to what you find when you take things apart. Please let us know the outcome.

[buellistic]

http://gotbluemilk.com/web061126/k/imagepages/image80.html just look what you did.

[Getnjgywitit]

what oil filter were you using?

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by buellistic
http://gotbluemilk.com/web061126/k/imagepages/image80.html just look what you did.

I believe he apologized and manned up, which is more than most would do around here. He seems real sorry for causing the mishap, kudos for that. It's unfortunate, but shit happens...;)

On a side note, do you ride a beull up on 9 and it recently blew up and then you put it back together, if so i know who you are.:)

[ZXR400SP]

Originally posted by buellistic
http://gotbluemilk.com/web061126/k/imagepages/image80.html just look what you did.

Actually he didn't do that, those two fell before lunch. The track got oiled in what ended up being the last session of the day.

And big props for those that did go out and ride. It was cold wet and windy and the C group was still busy. :applause :applause :applause

[buellistic]

the people who stayed in the wind and the rain had a real
lesson in throttle control. thats a good thing .many forget when its allways dry....

[bertocci]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
Actually he didn't do that, those two fell before lunch. The track got oiled in what ended up being the last session of the day.

And big props for those that did go out and ride. It was cold wet and windy and the C group was still busy. :applause :applause :applause

Yeah, I'm the guy on the right, and that was before any oil spillage. But hey, if you wanna blame my crash on anyone but me, go right ahead. ;)

[VTRweasel]

I understand why you feel sorry but what did you actually do "wrong" :wtf



(pssst: buellistic, plz go introduce yourself in the newbie section. kthxbye)

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by VTRweasel
I understand why you feel sorry but what did you actually do "wrong" :wtf



(pssst: buellistic, plz go introduce yourself in the newbie section. kthxbye)
regarding the track, it is the riders responsibility to check and recheck bolts,oil filters, etc. that hold liquid. therefore, technically it is his fault. He manned up and apologized so kudos for that.

[VTRweasel]

So it wasn't tightened? I thought he said it just failed, how do you check for a defective gasket before it goes bad?

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by VTRweasel
So it wasn't tightened? I thought he said it just failed, how do you check for a defective gasket before it goes bad?
i think the jury is still out on that? he said after a visual the o-ring appeared to have failed, but as AR7 suggested he's only seen it happen when you double up on the o-rings by mistake. I'm willing to guess it backed off and blew the seal. It happens and will happen again. That's why you check your drain plug and oil filter (at least i do) again at the track. I will even check again around lunch time after riding a few sessions. Nobody wants to be that guy. I feel for him, but give him props for manning up.

[VTRweasel]

Good reminder if nothing else.


And while we're talking about it... CHANGE OUT YOUR ANTIFREEZE!

[eeeeek]

Originally posted by Beetlejuice
I'm willing to guess it backed off and blew the seal. It happens and will happen again. That's why you check your drain plug and oil filter (at least i do) again at the track.

The oil filter in question was safety wired to prevent it from backing out. It was on tight, even after the oil blew out the seal.

[purluv420]

Originally posted by eeeeek
The oil filter in question was safety wired to prevent it from backing out. It was on tight, even after the oil blew out the seal.

Vic,
Was it a K&N?

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by eeeeek
The oil filter in question was safety wired to prevent it from backing out. It was on tight, even after the oil blew out the seal.
hopefully the OP will post up his findings after better inspection. If that is the case then maybe this is a potential problem with the 06 gsxr 750 that needs to be rectified. I want one of these bikes and am REAL interested in finding out how it happened.

[shiryu]

It was nice to meet you 675Trip despite the conditions. I was the one behind you on the R6. Despite the carnage and painful sight of a Ducati 749 missing peices, those last crashes were my sign to call it a day.

There wasn't much happening after the 3pm hour and after a bit of a wait, I got my clothes and headed in to the showers to change. I was in the midst of taking off my boots when I heard the tower call out for C group and I jammed out of the shower back to the bike.

[ALANRIDER7]

Even if it was on properly, if the old O-ring was still on the engine block it will fail as descibed.

Was the old O-ring on there or not?

[ALANRIDER7]

In the dark nooks and crannies of an engine, you can unscrew the old filter and not really see the old O-ring stuck on there.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/185/801/2846522-dsc06478__custom_.jpg

[ReptilianRage]

We'll know soon enough whether there was an extra O-ring in there or not. Troggy wasn't feeling too well today, so he went home sick (got too much oil in his system? :teeth). I'm pretty sure it was a K&N filter, though.

[Yody]

Usually double o-ringed oil filters leak immediatly, not saying that this didn't happen, but it would be a rare occurence that it decided to just puke halfway through a trackday, you would think it would of been leaking before hand? Maybe it was and he didn't notice?

[675 Trip]

before my first trackday with my 675 I went through and checked everything.. I had just taken it to the dealer for 600 mile service and had them switch to water wetter, etc because I was going to the track. they were/are supposed to be track savvy people. I checked the oil filter and it wasn't even hand tight.

I talked to the lead mechanic and he thought it was supposed to be contact plus half a turn, when in fact it is supposed to be 11 lb-ft of torque for the Daytona 675. the K&N I have says 8-12 N-M of torque (I would have to check my wrench to see what that equates to in lb-ft). Needless to say, the torque on the oil filter is extremely important.

To safety wire the oil filter, put a large hose clamp around it, tighten it (don't crush the filter) and safety wire the end of the clamp metal to something. needless to say, line it up so that it is pulling in the correct direction.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Even if it was on properly, if the old O-ring was still on the engine block it will fail as descibed.

Was the old O-ring on there or not?

It was a K&N filter. The old O-ring was not left on. The K&N filter comes with the ring greased, so that wasn't the problem either.

I have not pulled off the filter yet. I will when I get home from work. Then I'll now more.

[ALANRIDER7]

Pay attention to all the details. Photograph it before touching anything if you can. See how easy or difficult it is to remove. If it was loose, see how many turns it takes to tighten it up. Inspect the casing. Look at the O-ring itself. There's a reason hiding in there somewhere. You may have cause for seeking reimbursment from K&N if there is some sort of defect in the filter itself.

I've used K&N filters for years with never a sign of any trouble whatsoever.

What K&N filter part number did you use? How tightly was it installed?

If this thing was pissing oil, you were losing oil pressure. Did the light come on? Did the motor make any noises?

[afm199]

Plus one... many of us want to know if there is an issue here. Last time I remember a filter issue it was with some Frams on F2s in the early nineties.

[Yody]

K+N's also have holes in the nut on the end for safety wire, so you don't have to use the hose clamp. I have never seen an oring "blow out"? How do you know there weren't 2 gaskets if you haven't even looked at it yet? Also K+N's are very beefy filters, I suppose if you had some kind of really weird high pressure spike, the O ring would blow before the filter would. I've seen filters blow from extreme pressures but K+N's are extremely beefy, so I wonder if it was possible that a spike in crankcase or oil pressure blew the O ring if it was the weak link. but thats a huge fat guess and very unlikely.

[Trogdor]

After pulling off the filter I found the problem. It had nothing to do with the filter. It was user error. Despite looking at the engine block to make sure original O ring was not there, it was. Alan is right. it is easy to miss.

Not much else I can say. Rookie move.

[Yody]

I'm glad that has never happened to me, what a mess. It's hard to be mad at someone so willing to admit their mistakes, but if that was me out there and I crashed my bike do to somebody not knowing how to change an oil filter I would be pretty pissed. I would hope I too would have the maturity to let it go and be a good fellow biker. I can't give you kudos just for admitting it, but I will give a huge thumbsup to the fellow riders who are being so acceptive! Glad no one was hurt, and a big knock on wood for anyone else who might ever have a problem like this

Also do you think it was possible it was leaking and you didn't notice before it puked it all out since you have the catch with the track fairings? Did you change the oil before the trackday without testing it before arriving at the track?

[Holeshot]

Dave, can we move or copy this thread into the crash forum? This is REALLY good stuff, in fact. Alan's on the money.

[Rex_Deus]

Best wishes...that Santa is better to you than your filter luck has been.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Dave, can we move or copy this thread into the crash forum? This is REALLY good stuff, in fact. Alan's on the money.

Sure thing. Perhaps I should have posted there to begin with.

[Vne]

I have always made it a habit to wipe the mounting surface for the filter clean. Then before mounting the new filter I coat the surface with a film of fresh oil. I usually am just making sure the grime outside the edge of the old filter isn't getting under the new filters gasket. With this situation in mine its probalby been a good habit .

[AFM#719]

Originally posted by yody
I'm glad that has never happened to me, what a mess. It's hard to be mad at someone so willing to admit their mistakes, but if that was me out there and I crashed my bike do to somebody not knowing how to change an oil filter I would be pretty pissed. I would hope I too would have the maturity to let it go and be a good fellow biker. I can't give you kudos just for admitting it, but I will give a huge thumbsup to the fellow riders who are being so acceptive! Glad no one was hurt, and a big knock on wood for anyone else who might ever have a problem like this

Also do you think it was possible it was leaking and you didn't notice before it puked it all out since you have the catch with the track fairings? Did you change the oil before the trackday without testing it before arriving at the track?

After following the thread for a few days, I have to say I feel quite opposite. A huge kudos to the author for posting the thread and the evolution of his findings. Everyone makes mistakes.. how many ever admit to them?

There's about ten different lessons in here, and the biggest one is taking responsibility for your actions. This guy is 100% stand-up... and being able to trust the person next to you on the track is at the core of our sport.

[Snoggin]

Was the motor damaged? I know i will add another item to my checklist now when doing routine maintenance. I do generally check that the old o ring is on the old filter when I remove it. This also happend to scott on the sv.

[ALANRIDER7]

This type of thing could happen to anybody. You're stoked about doing a trackday, you're getting everything ready and time is short. You're rushing to get it all done. It always seems to go like that, doesn't it?

The old filter O-ring bonds to the engine and doesn't announce it to the world. You take the old filter off and at a quick glance, it's hard to notice anything wrong. The new filter goes on and even makes a temporary seal with the old O-ring. Remember- oil pressure is rpm related. It might not leak at all when you start the bike up- but when you hit redline......lookout. The seal ruptures and oil gushes everywhere. If he didn't have Sharkskinz on, he would have crashed bigtime.

This situation could have been a lot worse.

+1 to inspecting and cleaning the filter sealing surface every time. It's the only way.

[Yody]

Originally posted by AFM#719
After following the thread for a few days, I have to say I feel quite opposite. A huge kudos to the author for posting the thread and the evolution of his findings. Everyone makes mistakes.. how many ever admit to them?

There's about ten different lessons in here, and the biggest one is taking responsibility for your actions. This guy is 100% stand-up... and being able to trust the person next to you on the track is at the core of our sport.

Thats because you weren't one of the people who crashed because of it. And for the record I agree, this is a great thread and the author does get some kudos, but my point was that one shouldnt' recieve a bunch of props for spilling their oil on the track and causing 3 people to crash just because they admitted it. However its no big deal and I don't want to be the negative guy here and give anyone a hard time. Was just making an observation. I'm glad no one was hurt and hopefully somebody somewhere reads this and double checks their bike and prevents another spill like this Alans right, this could happen to anyone, so lets all make an effort to make sure it doesn't
:thumbup

[Lester Green]

Yody if you have this mind set the track is probably not for you..

[eeeeek]

Originally posted by yody
Did you change the oil before the trackday without testing it before arriving at the track?

How would you propose testing a bike that isn't street legal? Just warming it up in your garage or even running it up and down the street in front of your house would probably not induce this problem.

[ALANRIDER7]

This thing didn't fail right after startup- it failed after enough oil pressure ruptured the extra O-ring. It's not an easy thing to catch. He most likely started it up to check the oil level after refilling. If oil leaks onto the pipes, it's going to smoke like a chimney when it gets hot. This is a case where the failure took place after a short time and enough pressure built up.

Unless he changed it out and didn't start it up after. That's trouble.

Boil it down......... it's a good thing that this news is out there. It shows just how important it is to focus on what you're doing and doing the job properly, no matter how routine it is. Never assume or take anything for granted. If you assume the old O-ring automatically came off with the filter, you're mistaken.

[Yody]

My experience with double gasketed filters is that they leak immediately. Of course every situation is different though. I've personally never have done it, but have seen the results from others who have. Starting it up, letting it warm up and a few twists of the wrist could never hurt. The crankcase pressure under load inside the motor is much different than in neutral, but the PSI should still be the same. Apparantly in this situation it didn't blow out till later in the day, so testing it before hand probably would not of shown anything. However I am still wodnering if its possible it was leaking the entire time, and then finally blew out.

If it was leaking the entire time and was not noticed I would call that negligence, but that is a big "if". I'm not trying to point blame as the author already admitted to it. No one is %100 safe against an accident like this, but doing as much as you can to prevent it can't hurt. But like Alan said, there is a lot going on in your head at a trackday and there are a list of things just as important as this to check. Unfortunatly this problem in particular is going to be one of the biggest as its going to affect other riders, not just yourself

[Yody]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7


Boil it down......... it's a good thing that this news is out there. It shows just how important it is to focus on what you're doing and doing the job properly, no matter how routine it is. Never assume or take anything for granted. If you assume the old O-ring automatically came off with the filter, you're mistaken.

Couldn't of said it better myself! :applause :thumbup

[ALANRIDER7]

This thread should be copied and put into the Garage and Crash Analysis sections.

[Yody]

+1

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by yody
The oil pressure under load inside the motor is much different, but the PSI should still be the same.
:wtf If the oil pressure fluctuates under load, how can the psi remain the same, am i missing something here?

[Yody]

my point was that a motor will leak oil much more easily when its under load, like when riding the bike rather than just sitting in neutral. However the oil pressure PSI will still be the same or pretty close. The way I worded it was confusing since I used "pressure" to describe both occurences

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by yody
The oil pressure under load inside the motor is much different, but the PSI should still be the same.

I don't know what you're trying to say-

Oil pressure is rpm related. It goes up and down with engine speed. It's a sealed loop.

[Yody]

I think crankcase pressure is the word I was looking for, fixed the original post.

[ReptilianRage]

The bike was started multiple times before the seal(s) blew. It ran for a while in the paddock, we loaded the bike into my truck under power, and in fact he rode the bike during the first session of the day without a problem.

[Yody]

Well its a done deal now, hopefully this post will serve its purpose and future accidents will be avoided. I know that I have read about this before and it is always in the back of my mind, but for some reason, this post has really gotten me thinking about it and I for one will definetly be making it a priority to double check everytime.

plus it up'd my post count x10 :)

[ALANRIDER7]

Crankcase pressure has nothing to do with any of this.

I upped my post count- up yours. :twofinger

[Yody]

how bout clutches? Do I hear clutches anyone?

[Lester Green]

clutches, we don't need no stinkin clutches..

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/185/801/2848309-images.jpg

[Yody]

:teeth

[Yody]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Crankcase pressure has nothing to do with any of this.



Oh, and just for clarification, Alans of course correct, I was forgetting that the oil filter only sees oil/oil pressure unlike something like a pan gasket or such which sees crankcase loads. So of course the only thing that will affect the oil filter and the O ring sealing would be heat and the Oil pressure. Right thoughts, wrong application. :cool

[scalvert]

Snoggin outted me before I could chime in, but I too have done this. The whole story is kinda interesting.

It was my 3rd or 4th trackday back in December 04 and my first time at Sears. I had freshly changed the oil and filter and had run the bike to test it but hadn't gotten the rpms high. Headed out for my first session it would seem my bike was smoking a bit when I pulled up to grid control which was manned by an employee of the track. He claimed in the after action report that he'd signalled to me not to go out, but I don't recall anything other than a vague hand motion which I interpreted as "you next, go".

As it happens I'd also somehow managed to not fasten the chin strap on my helmet. I guess I was trying to get all my rookie mistakes out at once. Anyway, as soon as I started through the hot pits to the track entrance I felt it blowing around, so I pulled over in the hit pits to fasten it.

The grid control worker thought that I was pulling over due to my smoking/leaking bike, so he kinda relaxed. Well, when I pulled out to the entrance and let the bike rev the second filter gasket completely blew out and my bike became a 2.8L capacity oil super soaker. My first awareness of a problem was when the rear wheel spun up. I did not crash despite having a fully oiled rear tire and pulled off to rider's left just past the bridge in T1. I'd oiled the whole entrance ramp and the left side of the track to just past the bridge.

This is where things went from bad to worse. I pulled off, put the bike on the side stand, and started screaming at the T2 worker. I ran up to where I knew he could see me and started giving the OIL hand signal, while screaming that I'd oiled the track. I was jumping up and down and making the slash across the throat "red flag" signal. What response did he give? Nothing. That is until a rider came through (not sure if it was from the entrance or a hot lap) and crashed in the oil. Thankfully he was unhurt and his bike had already been down on that side. STILL there was no response. What caused the session to be red flagged was when _I_ ran out onto the track on the oil line and started giving the "widen your line" signal to riders.

Now clearly I was a dumbass in double gasketing my filter and I take full responsibility for oiling the track. But I was also astonished at the track provided workers' ineffectual responses. As a multi-year AFM Diehard these are the errors I see:

1) The grid controller, if he saw I was smoking should have responded violently. A rider about to get on the track is thinking about NOTHING other than GOING. If you see a problem with a rider right before releasing them you must do something DRAMATIC to make sure they understand. A minimum is stepping directly in front of their path and putting both hands out. Hitting the rider's kill switch isn't a bad idea either. Being visibly upset would help too. Riders respond to highly agitated workers more quickly than to calm ones. Honestly as an AFM worker IF I saw a bike heading out that was smoking heavily in the hot pits and the rider started riding past me I'd knock him off the bike with a well placed shoulder. A small vague hand gesture is, um, not enough.

2) I'd love to talk with the T2 worker. The track was open for a full two minutes before the crash. I'd been screaming "OIL ON THE FUCKING TRACK" and using the universal OIL sign for the entire two minutes. If an AFM worker failed to respond in that way they wouldn't just be uninvited from working ever again, I'm pretty sure Barb would have them escorted from the track property with a note to the security gaurd that he should be looking for a chance to get a beating in.

[Snoggin]

Sorry Scott:blush

[ALANRIDER7]

This brings up an interesting point. Some filter O-rings are square and some are round. In the picture I posted, the one stuck to the motor has a flat surface- this would make it easier for a round O-ring to squash up against it without leaking at first. But put enough pressurized oil behind it and it will fail eventually.

[afm199]

totally off thread, the non afm track workers are not always, to say the least, moto oriented. I have had the opportunity to see them do so weird stuff, like blue flagging bikes. LOL You kinda look at it and go: I know what that means, most of these riders don't and it is NOT one of the flags covered in the safety meeting. :laughing

[Yody]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
This brings up an interesting point. Some filter O-rings are square and some are round. In the picture I posted, the one stuck to the motor has a flat surface- this would make it easier for a round O-ring to squash up against it without leaking at first. But put enough pressurized oil behind it and it will fail eventually.

I noticed that too, if it had a gasket like that it would be very easy to make a mistake. I would bet that it wasn't 2 O rings stacked but something more like that combined with the O ring

[TWF]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
I don't know what you're trying to say-

Oil pressure is rpm related. It goes up and down with engine speed. It's a sealed loop.
only until it reaches pressure that will open relieve valve.
with this aftermarket filters you have to be carefull,O rings(or square rings)are not attached to filter housing as good as stock ones and they come off(stay on cases).
I love stock filters :)

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by TWF

with this aftermarket filters you have to be carefull,O rings(or square rings)are not attached to filter housing as good as stock ones and they come off(stay on cases).
I love stock filters :)

It was a stock filter that I pulled off and replaced with the K&N.

[TWF]

I guess it happens on those to,I just never seen one do it,and I did replace few :)
I had many K&N leave gasket on cases.

[scalvert]

Well, after my little adventure I've kept using K&N filters when they are at hand, but I'm pretty damn religious about checking the gasket.

[scalvert]

Originally posted by Snoggin
Sorry Scott:blush

Ha! Don't worry about it. Afterall you were among the people whom I cost track time, so it's your story too.

[Trogdor]

Here is a pic of the filter with the blown o-ring.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/185/801/2850017-oilfilter-bulge.jpg

[squid vicious]

if you spent more time checking the bike, and less time on the karoke machine.....

[fubar929]

Originally posted by scalvert
2) I'd love to talk with the T2 worker. The track was open for a full two minutes before the crash. I'd been screaming "OIL ON THE FUCKING TRACK" and using the universal OIL sign for the entire two minutes.

Strange. I've done 100+ trackdays with about a dozen different organizations and ridden at every track in California that allows motorcycles. I've worked as an on-track marshal and riding instructor. I've been to numerous motorcycle racing events conducted by at least a half-dozen different sanctioning bodies.

And I have no idea what the "universal OIL sign" is. Perhaps your turn worker, who probably spends most of his time working car events, didn't know it either?

What I do know is that if I dumped a gallon of oil on the track, I'd be standing in the middle of the puddle (or as close as was prudent) waving my arms over my head and "pushing" other riders toward a safe line. Dunno if that's the universal sign, but it seems pretty effective at preventing crashes!

[ALANRIDER7]

Yeah, what exactly is the "universal" oil on the track signal?

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
This type of thing could happen to anybody. You're stoked about doing a trackday, you're getting everything ready and time is short. You're rushing to get it all done. It always seems to go like that, doesn't it?

The old filter O-ring bonds to the engine and doesn't announce it to the world. You take the old filter off and at a quick glance, it's hard to notice anything wrong. The new filter goes on and even makes a temporary seal with the old O-ring. Remember- oil pressure is rpm related. It might not leak at all when you start the bike up- but when you hit redline......lookout. The seal ruptures and oil gushes everywhere.


Bwaaaa, that's exactly what happened when I changed the oil for the very first time on the K6. Everything looked hunky-dory until I gave the engine a quick blip after idling it up to temp for a couple of minutes. Hot fresh 10wt-40 projectile-vomited all over the garage floor...I was like :wtf x 10

After I hastily shut it off and cleaned up the mess, I did some deep thinking and realized that the old O-ring from the original filter had remained on the engine block. I was effectively trying to use two gaskets. Stupid me. :laughing

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by squid vicious
if you spent more time checking the bike, and less time on the karoke machine.....


:laughing :laughing

Good one!

[Eisernkreuz]

Originally posted by yody
Thats because you weren't one of the people who crashed because of it. And for the record I agree, this is a great thread and the author does get some kudos, but my point was that one shouldnt' recieve a bunch of props for spilling their oil on the track and causing 3 people to crash just because they admitted it. However its no big deal and I don't want to be the negative guy here and give anyone a hard time. Was just making an observation. I'm glad no one was hurt and hopefully somebody somewhere reads this and double checks their bike and prevents another spill like this Alans right, this could happen to anyone, so lets all make an effort to make sure it doesn't
:thumbup

Those of us who know Dave personally know that he's a very capable rider and owner. It's not like the guy strips bolts and scratches fairings every time he touches something. In this instance, a mistake happened that wasn't easy to spot without actually being on the track, or just waiting 11 days for the oil to accumulate enough in the fairing to seep out and drip onto the floor. :rolleyes Give the guy a break, he was honest and took responsibility for a mistake that could happen to anyone, as Alan described.

With your attitude, I suggest you start saving up to construct and pave your own track, so that someone else's involvement doesn't hinder your fun, whether it be dropping some oil on the track or passing you kinda close on the outside :twofinger

[Yody]

The point of my post was not to reticule Dave. It's obvious he's a stand up guy! He gets a break, but my point was more on general principle and was more of a general statement than something pointing towards him as an individual. I was merely saying that as a track-going rider, I would be highly upset if I crashed due to something as simple as an oil filter. ITs hard enough not crashing due to your own errors!! I was giving the credit to the other riders who took no offense and accepted his apology. That takes a high level of maturity that I would hope to have as well. As well, I just don't see giving a someone a pat on the back after causing 3 other people to crash but thats beside the point. I suppose in your favor that bringing that point up is in low taste as its obvious he knows what he did and rubbing it in doesn't do any good. For that I am not sorry but understand why you took my comments the way you did. If you can't understand this then thats okay, but that is what my point was for the record.

[purluv420]

I'm going to get the smackdown for this but here we go!!!!!!

I know trogdor from doing trackdays with him for the past couple of years and seeing him out at the AFM weekends saving our asses but that's no excuss!!!!!

With the people I run with in the trackday thing I would have been hung out to dry if I had done something this stupid!!!

I'm glad you manned up but that is no excuss at all and the fact is there is no excuss for such a bad move on a trackday riders behalf!!!!!!

People could die out there and you know that and that's what makes this thing so hard to swallow for me personally. If you had just started trackday riding and where not a potentiol racer maybe I wouldn't care so much but both of those what if's don't mean shit because you are not either. Get your shit together and make sure you don't make the same mistake again or I would venture to say you don't belong in a race format at all let alone a race enviroment.

I hope after I have posted this we can still be civil to eachother but someone has to say something that allows you to understand the severity of this situation and I'm not sure anyone has done this yet. I would guess that if you posted this in the racers furom you would be cleaning your rear of all the sh!t and boots that would be stuck up there.

Pease learn from this mistake as I did with all of mine and come back stronger and smarter next time.

Signed,

One asshat to another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

[Yody]

LOL, theres some real tough love for you! Sometimes in retrospect tough love is a good thing, but at the time it sure doesn't feel good!

[Holeshot]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
Yeah, what exactly is the "universal" oil on the track signal?


Uhhh, Green and black striped flag....

[Yody]

Duh

[hitman5532]

Three of the trackdays i went to this year had the same thing happen to 2 brand new gsx750's and a gsx1000. I hope something isn't wrong with production somehow.

My mom had a newer passat ( I think a 2003 ) and they had a problem with a massive batch of them where the thread for the oil drain bolt was slightly off in size. And they would suddenly dump oil everywhere.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Uhhh, Green and black striped flag....

The rider was giving the turnworker the universal oil sign. The question was, what was that sign. The rider wasn't holding a flag, he was gesturing.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by hitman5532
Three of the trackdays i went to this year had the same thing happen to 2 brand new gsx750's and a gsx1000. I hope something isn't wrong with production somehow.


There was nothing wrong with my bike. It was all me. The only thing that might be happening is that the stock filters that are factory installed on the new bikes just tend to have the O-ring stick to the engine casing.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Uhhh, Green and black striped flag....

:toothless

Uhhh, I know what flag it is..... Duh.

He said this

I'd been screaming "OIL ON THE FUCKING TRACK" and using the universal OIL sign for the entire two minutes.

implying the use of some sort of hand signal.

What hand signal???

:toothless

[Lester Green]

the green and black hand signal, DUH!!!!!!!

[fubar929]

Originally posted by yody
It's obvious he's a stand up guy!

Is it? I don't see how admitting you've done something stupid really means anything one way or another. When I've seen stand-up guys drop oil on the track and cause other people to crash, they generally contribute money or labor toward the repair of those bikes, in addition to admitting fault.

In my book, that's stand-up...

[Yody]

Well what have I been saying all along then? I wasn't there so I am not going to be stepping on peoples toes. I'll let you take care of that :teeth

[Eisernkreuz]

So, then people who drop oil, coolant, or blinker fluid on the street should hang out and pass out business cards and home phone numbers to the people that crash in their mess after them :wtf It's the cost of doing business, dude

[Holeshot]

FWIW, I raced an 06' 750 all season this season and did not have the issue Dave mentioned. Additionally, I didn't see it widespread on any of the 600's, 1000's nor 750's from 06. I did not, however, know that filter rings sticking was an issue. It's a great thing to look out for!

[ALANRIDER7]

It has nothing to do with OEM, brand, model, stock, aftermarket, whatever. ANY spin on filter that seals with an O-ring can leave the old seal on the block when removed. Cars, trucks, vans etc.

It's wise to make sure by cleaning the sealing surface with a rag and inspecting it for grit, skank or goop. Lube the new filter with some clean oil so the O-ring doesn't hang up and snag when tightening.

[675 Trip]

Originally posted by Eisernkreuz
So, then people who drop oil, coolant, or blinker fluid on the street should hang out and pass out business cards and home phone numbers to the people that crash in their mess after them :wtf It's the cost of doing business, dude

On the street or track, it is a matter of negligence and if you are caught on the street, damned right you are financially liable for the effects of your negligence.

On the track we sign waivers to avoid litigation over liability issues. There are of course limits to waivers and willful negligence is usually excluded by public policy making any such contract provision void. simple negligence, almost certainly is not excluded and therefore covered by the waiver.

I like to think that were I the guy who caused such carnage (luckily minor in this case) I would help out with the repairs to the extent of my ability. At this point I am not independently wealthy, so I would have to rely on the waiver covering me, but if I could help someone out who was damaged by my negligence, I would.

If I had the means to pay for the repairs, I would do that as well.

There are certain things that are understandable, you crash and spill oil, water wetter, etc. name of the game. you are too F'ing lazy or lie and say you changed out your coolant and create a coolant slick, then the other riders should probably rely on their immunity to string you up.

Doubling an oil gasket has been covered lots of times. doing your own oil change puts that responsibility squarely on your shoulders. I do oil changes for a living and I check the filter I took off against the new filter to make sure all the gaskets, washers, etc are accounted for. That is especially true on the 1 gallon element filters on Hino engines. about 10 different sealing parts (gaskets, multiple o-rings, rubber coated washers, etc.)

In sum: The waivers we sign are to prevent legal recourse from events at the track, they don't relieve us of the moral responsibility to take responsibility for our actions or negligence.

Maybe part of tech should be removing the catch pan and revving the engine to 90% of redline for a few seconds to see if the oil filter is leaking.

It would be nice if there were an easy preventive procedure. the only one we have now is CAREFUL maintenance and personal responsibility.

[Holeshot]

Mistakes happen. We're here to learn from those mistakes not pass some moral judgement. Keep that in mind.

Nothing more here. Locking.