Help me find my mistake!!

[Squidly McSmearstain]

I have never dragged a knee. I've never done a track day or gotten any riding instruciton outside of the BRC.

I bought a SV650 about 4 years ago. After a year on that I upgraded to an FZ1. I rode that for a couple of years and then sold it to buy a Sprint ST. I sold the Triumph after six months (don't get me started) and bought a 2003 Tuono.

So, I have about 4 years of riding under my belt. I've never had an accident, but (like all of us) have had some close calls. I'm NOT an aggressive rider, but my inability to get low in the turns has me a bit frustrated.

This week end I decided to do some experimenting in an empty parking lot. I decided to work on shfting my weight, looking thorough the turn, and getting low. Since I was in a big, empty parking lot I thought I could get low for the sake of getting low. I could work up to it gradually at a slow speed.

So, I started working on figure 8 patterns. I was riding anywhere from 15 to 25 mph, and simply doing figure 8's as I worked on my mechanics. I was able to REALLY improve by using the techniques listed in "Total Control".

After about 30 minutes I was regularly dragging the scuff gaurd on my boot. However, I had not touched my knee down, nor had I dragged a peg.

I was going through my figure 8 patterns with heated up tires where I had not dragged any hard parts (just my scuff gaurds on my boots) when the bike slipped out from under me. I went down for the first time in my four years of riding (Incidentally I commuted every day for the last 8 months from San Ramon to SSF).

I was going approximately 20 mph on the same figure 8 pattern I had been riding on for 30 minutes. I don't think I went any lower than I had been. I certainly don't recall dragging a peg (I had dragged the pegs on my FZ1). The bike just slid out from under me. I would really like to know why. I went into this exercise with the intent of learning. I learned a LOT until I crashed. Now I need to learn from my crash. However, after playing the scene in my mind for 24 hours I still can't figure out what happened.

I'd appreciate it if someone could "CSI" my mistake.

Bike: 2003 Aprilia Tuono
Tires: Michelin Pilot Powers - plenty of tread and thoroughly heated up
Suspension: Stock Sachs front and rear. Set up for me by me which means it probably isn't optimal
Surface: Parking lot asphault. Clean with no leaves or gravel where I was riding. It looked like it had been sealed this year.
Weather: partly sunny and in the low 60's

Please let me know what other details you need.

BTW, if your bike doesn't have frame sliders you should get them. My Tuono suffered a grand total of $36 of damage. My left wrist got slightly brised. That's it.

[donoman]

You can't see some slick spots on the floor sometimes. Going that slow, once you slide, it's over. You don't have any gyroscopic effect to help stabilize your bike.

Check your bike for leaking fluids.

[Ratters]

Parking lots usually have lots of fluids that leak from cars into the asphalt that may not be completely visible but are completely slippery. Sorry bout your crash.

You may also have given an abrupt input that the bike wasn't ready for???

Also, have your suspension set up by a pro. ;)

Nice bike, btw. :thumbup

[Holeshot]

We'll move this to the crash forum...a perfect first case. That ok?

[rritterson]

you were right in the area between where I lean into the turn and where I counterlean to stabilize the bike.

Did the bike spin after it fell? It's not definitive, but if it did spin, it might give you an idea of which wheel lost traction.

Following ratters, perhaps you gave it a little more gas than you had been and that was enough to use the rest of the traction?

Does anyone know enough physics to explain whether or not the amount of lean angle you can hold is lower at lower speeds? It seems like the gyroscopic force would balance the gravatation force on the center of mass, meaning at higher speeds the net force at a given lean angle would be less.

[RhythmRider]

I agree with ratters. Parking lots tend to have a lot of grease/oil buildup on the ground. You probably hit a slick spot. I was doing the exact same thing as you not 2 days ago, and I was definitely worried that I'd hit a slick spot and have the bike come out from under me. You ok? How's the bike?

[cardinal03]

Sounds like you were going too slow for the amount of lean. You probably fell inwards, and then the bike continued outwards, making you feel like it "slipped out" from underneath you.

At low speeds the game isn't lean angle, it's balance. Here's some nice low speed riding/balancing http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4452864479577856500&sourceid=zeitgeist.

[RhythmRider]

Originally posted by cardinal03
Sounds like you were going too slow for the amount of lean. You probably fell inwards, and then the bike continued outwards, making you feel like it "slipped out" from underneath you.

At low speeds the game isn't lean angle, it's balance. Here's some nice low speed riding/balancing http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4452864479577856500&sourceid=zeitgeist.
That video is insane! After much practice I should be able to do some of that with the Suzuki... I don't think he was talking about that kind of low speed turning, though. I was practicing near full leans at 15-20mph in a parking lot a couple of days ago just like him and didn't have any trouble. I have to say that getting the bike down at 65mph is tougher than doing it at 20mph, though.

[donoman]

Originally posted by rritterson
Does anyone know enough physics to explain whether or not the amount of lean angle you can hold is lower at lower speeds? It seems like the gyroscopic force would balance the gravatation force on the center of mass, meaning at higher speeds the net force at a given lean angle would be less.

Your bike has a finite turn radius, meaning you cannot turn on a dime even if you want to.

This means that there IS a minimum speed in which you are going too slow to balance the bike and maintain it in equilibrium. I don't think 20mph is below this minimum speed, however.

I think you hit a spot of shit or something.

One great way to see what happened is to examine your tires and look for slide marks which are not in the direction of wheel rotation. Try that and post in the morning.

Love
donoman

[clutchslip]

Originally posted by cardinal03
Sounds like you were going too slow for the amount of lean. You probably fell inwards, and then the bike continued outwards, making you feel like it "slipped out" from underneath you.

At low speeds the game isn't lean angle, it's balance.

While you might have had something on the tarmac, cardinal03 is probably accurate here.

The lower the speed, the more you steer.
The higher the speed, the more you lean.

I have made this mistake goofing around. So, don't feel bad about it.:blush

[afm199]

stop trying to drag a knee, and wait till you are at the track. you crashed trying to do something there was no need to do. Knees go on the asphalt when they need to, not when you want to put them there.

[Zachary]

Lean is not really done for the sake of lean. Its done to accomplish a task. That being turning. If you were taking the same curve at 20 mph, and then again at say 70 mph, your lean would be way way lower on the faster pass. I would say that going 25 miles per hour all the way down was probably the reason you fell. Not enough gyro to keep you stable. Also you mentioned you were doing figure 8s. If you switched directions too aggressively you may have upset the chasis. Good luck!

[MrCrash]

There were probably a few different factors.

Tire temperature - Speed flexes the carcass of the tire, which puts heat into it. 15-25 mph doesn't do much for heating a tire up.

Tire pressure - you didn't mention it. If you were at the manufacturers recommended pressures, they were too high. Higher pressure = less carcass flex = less heat = less traction.

Peg weighting - Weight on the inside peg can contribute to a slide. Ideally, you should weight the inside peg to lever a bike into a turn, then crack open the throttle while pushing the bike up using the outside peg, putting it onto the meat of the tire.

Improper throttle management - Cracking the throttle open once you're on your target line in a turn stabilizes the load between the front and rear tires by transferring weight to the rear, flexing the carcass and increasing the size of the contact patch.

Upset the chassis while the bike was on the edge of traction - If you weren't loose while practicing those manuevers, you may have been feeding some bad inputs into the chassis. You may have been a little "stiff" in your attempt to drag a knee, possibly holding onto the bars a bit too tightly, upsetting the handling when you were on the edge of traction.

Also, it's tricky to be smooth with the throttle and keep the chassis composed at low speeds. The slightest change in throttle could upset the chassis at those speeds, overloading either of your contact patches.

Pavement quality - The stuff that parking lots are made of generally isn't of the highest quality.

In the 6 or so years that I've been involved with rider education (primarily AFM Race School Instruction and Trackday instruction), I've been able to read a fair amount of material, talk with several experts, and see a few patterns in newer riders. You've seen a few different opinions now - what do you think the causes could be?

[fubar929]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
Tire temperature - Speed flexes the carcass of the tire, which puts heat into it. 15-25 mph doesn't do much for heating a tire up.

+5000 :thumbup

My experience with Michelin motorcycle tires has been that they're very cold-blooded and don't give much warning before they slide. It's the reason I don't use them anymore. 25mph won't do anything to get them, or any other tire, up to temp...

In addition, as others have already suggested parking lots are a terrible place to practice due to the amount of fluids dropped by cars. Oil, anti-freeze, brake fluid, you name it and some car has probably dropped it on the pavement. And, of course, they never get cleaned up!

[Squidly McSmearstain]

Thanks for some of the insight.

I do want to make a couple of comments.....

While I agree that putting a knee down is for the track, I think it is a little unrealistic to assume that I could show up at the track and appropriately get my knee to drag. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

I was doing variations on exercises described in "Total Control", they seemed completely reasonable. Yes, I was interested in seeing if I could get me knee down, but my primary purpose was to work on my turning mechanics. I saw a VAST improvement. If you don't work on this in a parking lot, under controlled conditions, starting at low speeds, where and how do you do this?

I checked my cold tire pressure right before riding. Both tires were 1 pound below the spec. I decided that 1 pound wouldn't create too much of an issue. Was this wrong?

I DID give a couple of "ham fisted" inputs to the bike during my practice. I was going slower with less lean than when I crashed. I didn't go down at this time, and learned from my mistakes. When I DID go down I was very smooth with the throttle. I didn't goose the throttle, I didn't chop the throttle.

I wasn't consciously weighting my inside peg, but I could have been. Given some of the earlier threads on this site, I really don't want to get into a debate about weighting or not weighting the inside peg.:laughing

I had been doing the figure 8's in the same spot for half an hour. I walked the area before riding on it to make sure that there wasn't any fluid on the tarmac. The lot looked like it had been sealed this summer. It was very smooth and very black.

When I did go down, the bike slid away from me in a straight line.

I had been riding for a little while before I started my turning practice. It is entirely possible my tires weren't warm enough. I think I lost the front tire based on marks on the front tire.

I'm going to be working under the assumption that (like all crashes) it was a combination of issues:

Tires not as warm as they could have been.
Hit a slightly slick spot
Lean angle overly aggressive for the speed.

While NONE of the above issues would have caused my crash ALONE, the combination of these factors probably casued my get off. Maybe a hit some paint, and it ate up my final bit of traction.

Right before I fell, I was starting to get a feel for things. Eventhough I hit the groud, it was worth it to learn in a controlled manner.

As far as the bike goes, I BROKE the left frame slilder. It did its job, but when I pulled on it after getting the bike up it came off in my hands. The rear stand spool protected my swingarm. I went down on the left side (the exhaust is on the right side). I broke the orange cover from the front turn signal, but the light inside the signal still works.

There is SLIGHT scuffing on the bar end weight, the back of the mirror, and the shift arm. After two days, there has been no fluid leakage.

I went to Calilfornia Speed Sports in Livermore and got a new left side frame slider for $32. The GAVE me a new orange turn signal cover. Those guys are great.

Thanks for the feedback. Keep the info coming.

[silverbelt]

Your mistake is easy to find.

Your trying to hard to drag knee on the worst possible surface with tires that are not warmed up.

I take issue with CityBikeMike about tire pressure however. Running at the manufacturers recommended pressure is perfectly fine for street riding and certainly did not lead to the crash.

Get comfortable with your bike and learn to be smooth rather than fast. In time, and probably by accident, you will knee drag when you least expect it.

That said however, when you see the "real" fast guys with scuffed knee pucks, it was probably done at the track and not on the streets.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by david_m
I was doing variations on exercises described in "Total Control", they seemed completely reasonable. Yes, I was interested in seeing if I could get me knee down, but my primary purpose was to work on my turning mechanics. I saw a VAST improvement. If you don't work on this in a parking lot, under controlled conditions, starting at low speeds, where and how do you do this?

We did similar exercises at low speeds when I took the Freddie Spencer Riding School a few years ago. The goal wasn't to get lean angle, but to practice basic control techniques and to learn how the bike responded to them.

To answer your question, I think you can practice several different kinds of basic control techniques anywhere. But to find or extend the limits of your riding, you're probably better off with a novice track school.

Thanks for the feedback. Keep the info coming.

Like Holeshot said, we have a "Crash Analysis" forum that should be open for posting very soon. Your post - and the contributions that everyone has made to the thread - is exactly what we are hoping to achieve with it.

[bpowa]

I dragged knee within six months of riding. Its the best feeling ever until you crash.. I know now it is not for the streets the only time i would ever do it now is if i were to go in a bit too hot and had to force lean the bike. the first couple of times i dragged peg was fine but if you are it is a indication you are going too low.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175251&highlight=bpowa+totaled

I am glad I can still ride toady.

in order to put your knee down you need to go faster, depending on the radius of the turn. certain turns i go 45 the one i crashed i was going like 75-80.

[Sane_Man]

Originally posted by david_m
Thanks for some of the insight.

I do want to make a couple of comments.....

While I agree that putting a knee down is for the track, I think it is a little unrealistic to assume that I could show up at the track and appropriately get my knee to drag. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.



I still haven't read what your motivation is for dragging knee. :confused

Style and poser points?

You said you never been to the track and received any instruction. Why not?

Self-learning usually means a rashed bike. But you already know that now.

Your mistake? You didn't take it to the track.

[Hoologan]

Originally posted by david_m
While I agree that putting a knee down is for the track, I think it is a little unrealistic to assume that I could show up at the track and appropriately get my knee to drag. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

Yes, it is that easy.

Sorry you rashed the bike mang and I'm glad you're okay.

It sounds like you've been riding for awhile, but if you've never had anyone show you the "right" way to do certain things, chances are you have developed some bad habits that will be very hard to break. I know you're probably sick of hearing it, but if you have the appropriate gear and whatnot, I would highly recommend a track day with Zoom Zoom next season. They have an excellent beginner program with classroom sessions an everything. You will learn so much more in one day than you ever could riding on the street. You even can work one on one with the instructors for the whole day if you'd like. It sounds expensive, but $160-$180 for a wole days worth of fun can't be beat. Shit, I paid over $100 to go skydiving, and that was like 4 minutes of fun!

[Rayman]

yea....ive never heard of someone dragging knees going at low speed....maybe stuntas? i mean going that slow (sub-30mph) to drag knee u basically have to hang way the hell off the bike, and u better have some long ass legs or a small ass bike. i like putting a knee down but on the streets its damn near impossible, let alone doing figure 8s in a parking lot somewhere.

[rumpofsteelskin]

As others have already mentioned, it would be best to take your whole knee-dragging project to the track. You seem to have the requisite dedication and concentration to become a better rider, but your choice of venue for experimentation is inappropriate.

Really - you should do a track day. I recommend the nice folks at Zoom Zoom. (http://zoomzoomtrackdays.com/)

[Squidly McSmearstain]

I'm REALLY sorry I even mentioned the "knee down" thing. Again, I can't stress this enough:

MY INTENT WAS TO IMPROVE MY TURNING MECHANICS IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT!!! I STARTED AT SLOW SPEED BECUASE THIS IS WHAT THE BOOK RECOMMENDED.

If my knee dragged, that's great, but it was not the sole purpose of the exercise. Thanks to some of you for zeroing in on one tiny tidbit of information and blowing it way out of proportion.

Yes, I agree going to the track and taking a novice school is my best bet. However, riding time can be limited due to other responsibilities. I didn't have the chance to go to a novice school this year. I'm still interested in learning and improving, and want to take advantage of the time I do have to improve my skills.

Your mistake is easy to find.

Your trying to hard to drag knee on the worst possible surface with tires that are not warmed up.

I take issue with CityBikeMike about tire pressure however. Running at the manufacturers recommended pressure is perfectly fine for street riding and certainly did not lead to the crash......

This is useful information

Get comfortable with your bike and learn to be smooth rather than fast. In time, and probably by accident, you will knee drag when you least expect it.

This is exactly what I was doing; getting comfortable with my bike and working on my mechanics. I'm regretting my "knee drag" comment even more.

That said however, when you see the "real" fast guys with scuffed knee pucks, it was probably done at the track and not on the streets.

I know.


I still haven't read what your motivation is for dragging knee.

Style and poser points?

Please concentrate on the content of my posting and not on a single ill-chosen comment. I'll say it more forcefully: I don't give a shit if I drag my knee. If it happens, then great. My intent was to work on my riding mechanics because they need improvement.

You said you never been to the track and received any instruction. Why not?

Because responsibility and "real life" intrude on my hobbies. I will go to a novice school at some point, but these things can't happen at the drop of a hat. I'm not in my twenties any longer and several people rely on me. In the mean time it seems entirely reasonable and even (gasp) responsible to practice techniques in a low risk environment.

Self-learning usually means a rashed bike. But you already know that now.

Thanks for the news flash.

There's a reason I'm asking for diagnosis of my mistake. I know I erred. The problem is that I don't specifically know what my error was. I NEED to know more detail about what I did wrong. Incidentally, trying to drag a knee was not my mistake, because I didn't go out with the intent of dragging a knee. I went out with theintent of learning and improving.

Your mistake? You didn't take it to the track.

Gee, I guess I'll just walk out my back door to the track and learn at my convenience. Or maybe I'll just continue to ride the same way I always do until a convenient track day materizes.....

OR JUST MAYBE I can use the riding time I have available to me to improve my skills and try to repair mistakes, and make my motorcycling an ever improving process rather than a stagnant example of continued and consistent mistakes. Rather than try to improve my skills on the streets, where I and others may be injured, I could do these exercises in an area where the only negative result would be on me and my motorcycle. Also, rather than just ripping open the throttle, maybe I could work on the fundamentals at a slow speed and learn good habits.

It sounds like you've been riding for awhile, but if you've never had anyone show you the "right" way to do certain things, chances are you have developed some bad habits that will be very hard to break.

You're absolutely right. I'm working under the assumption that my crash is the result of a bad habit that needs breaking. That's why I'm here. I know it's tough to do from the internet, but I should make every effort possible to figure out my mistake so it can be corrected.

I know you're probably sick of hearing it, but if you have the appropriate gear and whatnot, I would highly recommend a track day with Zoom Zoom next season. They have an excellent beginner program with classroom sessions an everything. You will learn so much more in one day than you ever could riding on the street. You even can work one on one with the instructors for the whole day if you'd like. It sounds expensive, but $160-$180 for a wole days worth of fun can't be beat. Shit, I paid over $100 to go skydiving, and that was like 4 minutes of fun!

Without sounding like an elitist snob, I sneeze $160 - $180. The money is not an issue at all, and that price sounds ridiculously cheap. You should see what I spend on acoustic guitars. My Italian motorcycle is cheap compared to my other hobby.

I'm not sick of hearing about going to a track school. I plan on attending a track school. I want to attend a track school. I will attend a track school.

However, I don't think I should confine my learning and experimenting to a track school. If I'm lucky I'll get to do two track schools next year. At best that's four days of track riding and instruction. Yes, I WILL LEARN a ton during this time.

But I'll have literally hundreds of other days where I can learn and practice while not on the track. I can practice things at slow speeds to get the correct techniques down and develop the muscle memory necessary to make things instinctive. This is simply not going to happen for me over the course of a couple of days. I know myself enough to know that I require repeated practice and exercise. I'm just not going to go to a track school and magically no longer require practice.

I REALLY do appreciate the helpful and insightful comments.

Some of you need to work a bit on reading comprehension. I suggest going somewhere safe and reading at a slow speed until you truly understand what you're reading. Once you have the concepts of understanding what you've read, you can up your reading speed. However, the best approach is to do things slowly so that you understand the concepts rather than racing through the task.

[MrCrash]

One of the concerns with the new "Crash Analysis" Forum is with potential flame-fests. It's easy to present advice in a "told-you-so" sort of manner, making those who are looking to learn immediately defensive - this is exactly what we're trying to avoid. A constructive, positive approach to the presentation of information is what separates a good instructor from an elitist smart-ass.

Because of this, we plan to keep a close eye on posts in the new forum, and will be enforcing the TOS accordingly.

I know this we're not in the new forum yet, and that most of you are trying to be positive. Until we have that up and going, all we can ask is for you guys to keep it constructive!

[Holeshot]

One thing about slow speed movements, such as you were practicing: they actually give less control than higher speed movements. You've got less momentum carrying your forward, onto better pavement at lower speeds, and hence, the bike wants to fall to the ground more readily. Any front tire slides/ fluid we may hit has an immediate effect that really can't be ridden out. Push a bike in a straight line hard (try a bicycle) and it'll travel until it loses enough speed to fall on its side (given the bars are locked). Do so at a slower speed and the bike won't remain upright very long.

I believe the speed of 20mph isn't conducive to progressive riding on that Tuono, possibly. It was designed for more aggressive speeds, and hence, its stability was impacted some. When you did get a front tire slide (not that likely at that speed, IMO) or hit some fluid/rocks/ poor traction, the bike had no ability to right itself, and fell straight to the ground.

That's my analysis. My thoughts are to try some road exercises in the future. At least the scenery changes!

[fubar929]

Originally posted by silverbelt
I take issue with CityBikeMike about tire pressure however. Running at the manufacturers recommended pressure is perfectly fine for street riding and certainly did not lead to the crash.

Don't bet on it...

The tire pressures printed on the side of the tire are for "maximum load". So, if you're pounding down I-5 with your girlfriend on the back and a full load of luggage, they're perfect. If you want maximum grip at extreme lean angles then they're probably not so great.

[Eric in Davis]

Mike/MrCrash did an excellent job summarizing the issues. My words are probably just repeating what he said, but here goes:

- Someone said manuf. recommended tire pressures are fine for street riding. True. Doing figure-8's in a parking lot while trying to achieve as much lean angle as you can is not street riding Therefore you're going to run into problems if you have rock-hard tire pressures.

- You said you scraped your toe slider/guard but not peg. Do you have proper foot position? Regardless of how aggressive your riding is, you shouldn't be "flat-footing" your pegs while cornering, you should have the front of your feet on the pegs.

- As people have stated, you're getting very little heat in your tires by cornering at low speeds. I'd bet you had less heat in your tires doing those figure-8's than if you had just been riding around from stop-light to stop-light accelerating and braking hard. Lesson - don't try to do figure-8's in a parking lot, it's just not going to work out (or at least, there is a very good likelihood that you won't be happy with the end result, as you unfortunately learned)

- A sort-of-related tidbit: trackday riders (racers too, actually) usually crash in the lowest speed corners at tracks. Slow speed turns are very tricky as Holeshot et al have stated.

I wouldn't expend too much energy trying to analyze this crash. Your experiment was doomed to fail before you started. My 0.02 would be to take a class at a track to better learn how to handle your motorcycle. Classes are good for everyone, they're not just for yahoos that want to go fast and be the next Valentino Rossi.

One more thing: This isn't meant as a flame or an "I told you so", but people should be reminded that you are not immune from serious injury or death by practicing at slow speeds in a parking lot. There have been plenty of "freak" crashes in parking lots that have killed riders. I'm not saying not to do it, but don't think that nothing can go wrong at low speeds in a parking lot.

[Squidly McSmearstain]

Eric, thanks for the feedback. That is EXACTLY the type of feedback I was hoping to get by posting on the forum. You gave informative replies and backed up assertions. Thank you.

This leads me to another question.

If you want to work on riding techniques, and you require instruction, OTHER THAN AT THE TRACK what are the alternatives?

I have Twist of the Wrist II and Total Control. I was working through the exercises in Total Control when I had my mishap. Personlly, I think it is completely unreasonable to limit performance practice and learning to track events. It is easily possible to work on things in a sane and safe manner outside of the track.

Suggestions?

[Eric in Davis]

That's a great question david_m. I hope other people can answer it. I haven't ridden on the street for 2+ years so I really can't offer any advice. I actually just got a street bike this weekend and it feels weird riding on the street again.

Let me add this:
I think that pretty much everything except for lean angle can be practiced in places other than the track. BUT there simply is not getting around the laws of Physics that say that you need to be traveling really fast (for the street) in order to achieve high lean angles. Things like body position, smooth throttle, foot position, hard braking, light control of your handlebars, etc... can be practiced at sane street speeds (well, hard braking should be practiced with care, you don't want to do that in traffic!)

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Eric in Davis
- You said you scraped your toe slider/guard but not peg. Do you have proper foot position? Regardless of how aggressive your riding is, you shouldn't be "flat-footing" your pegs while cornering, you should have the front of your feet on the pegs.

In addition to that, I've noticed riders who are consciously trying to drag knee for the first time often point the toe on their inside feet forward rather than into the turn. Pointing the toe into the turn puts the knee out rather than forward, where it's more likely to touch the ground before the toe or the footpeg.

- A sort-of-related tidbit: trackday riders (racers too, actually) usually crash in the lowest speed corners at tracks. Slow speed turns are very tricky as Holeshot et al have stated.

I've noticed the same thing. Since lower speeds aren't as intimidating to less-experienced trackday goers, I've observed (and have been directly told) that those corners are where they are going to go for that additional lean angle. It explains why so many people new track riders fall in Turn 11 at Thunderhill. Racers and more experienced riders rarely fall there, as they tend to sacrifice speed and lean angle for drive out onto the back straight.[/B][/QUOTE]

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Eric in Davis
Let me add this:
I think that pretty much everything except for lean angle can be practiced in places other than the track. BUT there simply is not getting around the laws of Physics that say that you need to be traveling really fast (for the street) in order to achieve high lean angles. Things like body position, smooth throttle, foot position, hard braking, light control of your handlebars, etc... can be practiced at sane street speeds (well, hard braking should be practiced with care, you don't want to do that in traffic!)

+1 :thumbup

[Eric in Davis]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
In addition to that, I've noticed riders who are consciously trying to drag knee for the first time often point the toe on their inside feet forward rather than into the turn. Pointing the toe into the turn puts the knee out rather than forward, where it's more likely to touch the ground before the toe or the footpeg.

I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

While, you shouldn't need extreme cornering techniques while riding on the street, proper foot position is still a good idea because it allows you to use your lower body (e.g. weighting the inside peg) to "finesse" your bike midcorner. I think this is a matter of riding style and some may or may not do it, it's not mandatory.

One more thing. Riding with the front-half of your foot on the pegs also sets you up for better absorption of bumps by using your body as another part of your suspension. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good explanation, but basically: Think of standing on your tippie-toes and lifting yourself up and down like you're working out the calves of your legs. If you ride with your feet on the pegs properly then repeat that motion when you hit bumps. This will basically take your fat-ass :laughing off the seat and put all your weight on the pegs which will allow your chassis respond to bumps better. I'm not a suspension guru, but I do know motorcycles absorb bumps waaaay better when the riders weight is on the pegs instead of being all on the seat.

[rockerbox]

Now that you've been compleatly brow beaten.. can I add my two cents? I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this specifically..

I get to watch a lot of riders... New and experienced.. I learn a lot..

I see riders moving their knees away from the bike.. 'dropping a knee' specifically.. doing this destabilizes the bike... unless one compensate elsewhere.. I.E gripping the bars tight..

So... instead of using the handlebars as a crutch;

Why not shift your knee/weight foward to one side or the other and keep your knees tight on the tank?

Toes on the pegs, relax your upper body?

lean foward..

Crane your neck out.. look where your going..

Choke up on the throttle for more control..

Play with shifting your feet back and forth:

on one side.. toe is on the peg...
on the other.. arch is on the peg..

Alternate pressure on one peg or the other..

see how this works for you.. Play with it..

Pratice pratice... No crashing allowed.. ;)

[ryong]

practice, practice and more practice makes perfect.....

[WannabeSiR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of temperature and imperfections in the pavement, another important thing that can't be overlooked is the lateral slope of the pavement in a turn. If you've ever watched MotoGP races or even have just looked at a track, the turns usually have lateral slopes to increase the tire contact in the pavement even though the riders are damn near elbow dragging. This helps them stay up even with extreme lean angles (otherwise they'd be down too due to gravity). Often twisties (or winding roads near mountains or canyons) have this lateral slope on the road for drainage and to help cars stay on track. This is why a lot of riders can kneedrag in the twisties, as opposed to city streets or parking lots where lateral slope is pretty nonexistant.

Also, there's a certain balance between the centrifugal force and lean angle of a bike. As others have said, the faster you go, the more you lean rather than steer. Your tires have a certain coefficient of friction that it can take with whatever pavement you're on in the given conditions. Higher speeds actually increase the centrifugal force, which helps counterbalance gravity's tendency to pull you off the bike and off rollin into the ditch during max lean. This helps keep that coefficient of friction down to something manageable by your tires.

Tires tires tires! Make sure you trust your tires.

[Eric in Davis]

Originally posted by WannabeSiR
Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of temperature and imperfections in the pavement, another important thing that can't be overlooked is the lateral slope of the pavement in a turn. If you've ever watched MotoGP races or even have just looked at a track, the turns usually have lateral slopes to increase the tire contact in the pavement even though the riders are damn near elbow dragging. This helps them stay up even with extreme lean angles (otherwise they'd be down too due to gravity). Often twisties (or winding roads near mountains or canyons) have this lateral slope on the road for drainage and to help cars stay on track. This is why a lot of riders can kneedrag in the twisties, as opposed to city streets or parking lots where lateral slope is pretty nonexistant.

Tracks have positive camber/banking turns, but they also have off-camber/negative-camber turns as well.

You can't go as fast through off-camber turns, but you're still hauling-ass!

Your lateral slope theory is kind of based on some sound reasoning, but isn't really correct.

[Yody]

Originally posted by Eric in Davis
I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

While, you shouldn't need extreme cornering techniques while riding on the street, proper foot position is still a good idea because it allows you to use your lower body (e.g. weighting the inside peg) to "finesse" your bike midcorner. I think this is a matter of riding style and some may or may not do it, it's not mandatory.

One more thing. Riding with the front-half of your foot on the pegs also sets you up for better absorption of bumps by using your body as another part of your suspension. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good explanation, but basically: Think of standing on your tippie-toes and lifting yourself up and down like you're working out the calves of your legs. If you ride with your feet on the pegs properly then repeat that motion when you hit bumps. This will basically take your fat-ass :laughing off the seat and put all your weight on the pegs which will allow your chassis respond to bumps better. I'm not a suspension guru, but I do know motorcycles absorb bumps waaaay better when the riders weight is on the pegs instead of being all on the seat.

From what I've seen and done, you want your inside toe pointing almost towards the ground, this allows your knee and leg to extend outwards much easier. This "i believe" again is also why moto boots have toe sliders because your toe is much more likely to hit the ground in this position. Then the outside foot should be pointed outwards, with the bottom of the foot putting pressure on teh peg.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by Eric in Davis
I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

I took a couple of pictures to try to illustrate what I'm doing. Here I am, with my toe pointing into the turn. My knee follows my toe by pointing into the turn, and is in a better position to touch the ground before my toe or the footpeg does:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/185/819/2849363-foot1.jpg

[MrCrash]

In this photo, the toe is pointing forward, so the knee follows by pointing forward. The rider can be on the balls of his feet here, but his knee will be against the bike and not out. If the rider's foot is oriented this way, his foot or peg will be far more likely to touch than his knee does.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/185/819/2849386-foot3.jpg

[Squidly McSmearstain]

Okay, this leads to an interesting (at least to me) question. Earlier in my practice I was dragging my toe because I was pointing my toe down. I tucked my toes in which (of course) brought me knee closer to the bike.

My toe stopped scraping. After a little while, I increased my lean angle until the side of my foot was scraping. After I was scraping my foot (but not draggin any hard parts) is when the bike went out from under me.

Did tucking in my toe move my knee in so much that my knee no longer became a reliable "lean indicator"?

[Yody]

Possibly, but that doesn't dismiss the facts that what you were doing wasn't a good idea, and there were a lot of factors why you could of went down. I wouldn't say that not touching your knee down caused your crash. I don't say this to be a negative person, but just want to see you throughly think out what happened and not using the idea that if you would of stuck your knee out you might of hit it and therefore judged your lean angle and not crashed. On the track this might have more merit to it, but in a parking lot not so much.

[way]

this is all good info..thanks

[way]

been down once myself...sprained hand