Non-pain-compliance-based 'less lethal' weapons?

[saizai]

... is there such a thing?

My understanding is that the primary problem with most 'less lethal' weapons - e.g. rubber bullets, tazer(?), mace - is that they depend on pain compliance. And therefore, don't work on someone who is on PCP or really uber determined - whereas a bullet will in fact take them down (with the probable consequent of killing them in the process).

Is there some equivalent of a less-lethal Magnum, that you can be sure of physically incapacitating / neutralizing a target while still probably leaving them alive?

(Dunno if tazers count; how easily can one resist them through pain tolerance?)

[Junkie]

taSers don't work through pain, they work through overpowering the signals your brain is sending to your body. bullets in most places, on the other hand, depend on pain.

[}Dragon{]

There was some stuff that I saw a few years ago... "riot goo" that the military was experimenting with...

I've also seen foreign Police agencies (I believe it was Thailand) use tranquilizer darts. This would NOT fly here.

Some experiments have also been done with low (sonic) frequency weapons, in search of the "brown note"; a mythical frequency that makes you loose control of your bowels.

There are also special munitions for paintball guns (different sized round than a standard paintball) that cause you to puke.

There is no magic bullet... yet.

[Junkie]

while it isn't exactly a perfectly scientific or accurate test, mythbusters tried to find the "brown note" and failed.

[saizai]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
There was some stuff that I saw a few years ago... "riot goo" that the military was experimenting with...

I've heard of that, but not seen it coming in easily portable form (i.e. pistol sized) - rather for the heavy riot control. Have you?

I've also seen foreign Police agencies (I believe it was Thailand) use tranquilizer darts. This would NOT fly here.

Why? I would expect that they're still less lethal than a .44 slug...

Some experiments have also been done with low (sonic) frequency weapons, in search of the "brown note"; a mythical frequency that makes you loose control of your bowels.

I haven't heard of that, but have heard of sonic weapons - usually big things though again. There was one in the news recently when it was successfully used by a ship (cruise ship iirc?) to repel pirates. (The bazooka and rifle toting kind.)

There are also special munitions for paintball guns (different sized round than a standard paintball) that cause you to puke.

Really? How does it work / linky please!

[}Dragon{]

Saizai - your cutting into my beer time :laughing

Real quick: The liability in using tranquilizers is that #1 You need a MD's prescription to dispense medication #2 You would need to be medically trained to administer the 'medication'.
The MD's who have some of the highest liability/malpractice insurance are Anesthesiologists... There is a higher probability of someone dying from a tranq than there is from a Taser.

On a side note: Some of the new Tasers now have a video camera built into them that record as soon as the targeting system is activated.

The paint balls IIRC are a combo of skunk, garbage, sulphur and cause you to want to hurl immediately. The problem is: OK- who wants to touch this guy, let alone drive him to jail after he's been splatted :green

[saizai]

(Sorry about your beer. ;) )

Are you serious that they'd treat a tranq when used by a cop as a weapon in the same way as any other medicine? That's fucked up - I'd expect that once you're treating it as a weapon it should go under the same rules as e.g. your service revolver. You don't treat a tazer in the same way as electroshock therapy after all.

(But IIRC it's pretty damn hard to have a general-use tranq that's a) going to work on most people, b) work FAST (i.e. seconds not minutes) and c) not kill half of 'em from overdose, so perhaps it's moot anyway....)


About the video cam - given modern tech, why not have all cops wear a shoulder-mounted always-on vidcam? (E.g. right next to the radio clip would work. Or be uber fancy and put it on an ear or eyeglass clip.) Digital, it could easily hold a day of video on one fingernail-size chip, and you can't get much better evidence in case they dispute testimony or the cop forgets something afterwards. (Of course, if the cop messes up, it'll hopefully get that too...)


Good point on the, ah, problematic aspects of shooting someone with skunk juice. :P

[saizai]

Oh also, see the end of this video for a, um, interesting police tranq weapon: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e5002864c

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by saizai
(Sorry about your beer. ;) )
About the video cam - given modern tech, why not have all cops wear a shoulder-mounted always-on vidcam? (E.g. right next to the radio clip would work. Or be uber fancy and put it on an ear or eyeglass clip.) Digital, it could easily hold a day of video on one fingernail-size chip, and you can't get much better evidence in case they dispute testimony or the cop forgets something afterwards. (Of course, if the cop messes up, it'll hopefully get that too...)


Good point on the, ah, problematic aspects of shooting someone with skunk juice. :P
I personally vote that YOUR paychecks fund that program. Mine go to enough programs already.

[pilotimb]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
I personally vote that YOUR paychecks fund that program. Mine go to enough programs already.

+1

[RhythmRider]

Different situations call for different weapons, and no single weapon will work for every given situation. I would say when confronting a suspect in the open, the greatest chance of bringing him down peacefully would be to trap him with a net gun or a bola because of the wide area covered. In close quarters, you'd be less likely to miss and so a better solution might be a stun gun or beanbag gun maybe. Obviously things get more complicated than that, but the bad guys know the risks going into it usually.

[saizai]

I didn't know there was such a thing as a net gun... and aren't bolas a bit medieval? Do cops actually use 'em nowadays?

You're right of course re. different situations - but hence my OP question.

Basically it resolves to: what highly effective methods are there to quickly take down a violent, strong, and pain-immune aggressor short of a couple bullets to the chest or one to the head? Granted most people will probably comply to pain, but there'll always be the problematic few... it'd be nice to be able to defend self/others without having to kill them.

IIRC I've heard stories of cops shooting such people with tazers multiple times and it not being sufficiently effective; tear gas even more so.

No idea how effective beanbag guns are - I talked to a park ranger once toting a shotgun that used 'expanding baton' shells (!) and said it was pretty effective for scaring off bears...

[Nick]

Taser's aren't pain compliance. They disrupt the communication between your muscles and your brain making it so you can't move. They just also happen to hurt like hell.

Are you talking about for crowd control situations or for suspect vs. officer situations? Different situations call for different tactics.

For crowd control, gas works well, assuming officers are prepared. There is also the FN 303, which is like a paintball gun that fires pellets of paint or paint/OC.

For one suspect interactions, the taser is a great tool when both barbes make good contact. It relies on nuerologics.

On another note, bullets often times don't drop people like many people think they would. The impact of a .45 round hitting a body is about the same as a 10lbs weight being dropped from 6 inches (so I've been told, never experienced...). It's not going to knock you back like you see in the movies. If the suspect has the fight mentality, he/she might not even be effected by the wound and continue to fight until they pump out. This is why police officers practice failure drills/standard response drills. A certain number of shots to center mass (usually 2 or 3) followed usually by one or two shots to the soft tissue of the head (the triangle formed by your eyes, and your mouth, also referred to as the T-Zone). A hit in this zone will usually immediately incapacitate a suspect.

[saizai]

Originally posted by Nick
[B]Taser's aren't pain compliance. They disrupt the communication between your muscles and your brain making it so you can't move. They just also happen to hurt like hell.

Can that disruptive effect be resisted, e.g. by someone on PCP? Would it be appropriate to use on someone with a gun or knife in their hand? (Aside from the fact that if they have a gun waving around you probably already will soon have license to just shoot the bastard, but if you have multiple cops already drawing on him then you can probably spare one guy to try a tazing instead before it comes to the "he aims at us, we kill him" part.)

Are you talking about for crowd control situations or for suspect vs. officer situations? Different situations call for different tactics.

I only meant suspect vs officer / civilian situations. Crowd control means you get to use the Big Guns like the foamblasters etc; I'm only interested in something on rifle or much preferably pistol scale (like tazers and mace cans).

Incidentally - why don't cops convert to pepper foam over pepper spray? Essentially the same stuff but turns into shaving cream type substance; harder to get off, has IV dye, and doesn't hang in the air as a mist that other friendlies can then get affected by.

This is why police officers practice failure drills/standard response drills. A certain number of shots to center mass (usually 2 or 3) followed usually by one or two shots to the soft tissue of the head (the triangle formed by your eyes, and your mouth, also referred to as the T-Zone). A hit in this zone will usually immediately incapacitate a suspect.

*nod* That problem is what I was trying to refer to originally by "stopping power". A bullet in the arm or belly is relatively less likely to be incapacitating if you discount the (albeit considerable) pain factor.

Incapacitating power, with a gun, is pretty damn likely to be fatal power. (E.g. damn near nobody will survive a hit to the T-Zone.) I think that's regrettable. It should of course still be *incapacitating* - you want to neutralize danger to friendlies and innocents - but I find unnecessary death, even of someone trying to kill others, to be a tragic thing.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by saizai
what highly effective methods are there to quickly take down a violent, strong, and pain-immune aggressor short of a couple bullets to the chest or one to the head?

I've always prefered the chainsaw in Doom, yes I know it's a close quarters contact weapon and the risks involved- but nothing says stop like a Stihl™ (http://doom3.gameamp.com/modules/gallery/uploads/353.jpg)


Like I said before there is no magic bullet and if your dealing with someone on PCP (look for the mad running naked man), there is NO easy way to deal with the situation.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=11963

[Nick]

Originally posted by saizai
Can that disruptive effect be resisted, e.g. by someone on PCP? Would it be appropriate to use on someone with a gun or knife in their hand? (Aside from the fact that if they have a gun waving around you probably already will soon have license to just shoot the bastard, but if you have multiple cops already drawing on him then you can probably spare one guy to try a tazing instead before it comes to the "he aims at us, we kill him" part.)

Tasers can be used effectively against someone on PCP.

If someone has a gun or knife, it would be reasonable (given the manpower) to have one officer on less lethal (Sage or even Taser).

In a perfect world, the dude waiving a gun around is getting shot well before it comes to the "he aims at us, we kill him." That guy is getting shot after refusing/not complying with officer commands to drop the gun. How many times they tell the suspect is up to the officer though. This is a situation where a Sage might be a good tool to use. If it's a stand-off situation, have some officers distracting the suspect while another officer flanks with the Sage and caps him with a 37/40mm rubber ball. The shock will probably lead him to drop the firearm and then the arrest team can come in.

[motorman4life]

Boy, this thread took off like wildfire.

OC (pepper spray) and the Tazer, when used properly, will incapacitate anyone, even those not feeling pain and those that are highly-motivated to stay in the fight.

OC causes the mucus membranes to swell as well as the eyes. The result is labored breathing due to nasal and esophageal blockage in addition to a rapid loss of electrolytes and leukocytes. Unlike "Mace" or other chemical sprays, it also works on aggressive dogs.

The Tazer causes the affected muscle groups to involuntarily contract and sends a series of carefully patterned and highly disruptive electrical signal pulses to the brain while the device is activated and proper contact is maintained.

Both result in pain, but in some ways, neither uses pain for compliance, such as a come-along hold or arm-bar take-down. The pain is really a side-effect. The initial compliance comes from disruption and incapacitation. Surrender comes from a threat of continued applications. In most cases, a successful end-result relies heavily on a person willing to use reason (or instinct) to surrender. In cases where they are not willing to surrender and comply with verbal commands, the officers are forced to continue immobilizing applications until the subject is exhausted or the police use overwhelming manpower to restrain or otherwise incapacitate the subject.

In cases of in-custody death involving either of these “tools” or methods, generally there are a number of other factors involved that are likely unknown to the police at the time of the altercation; Drug-induced psychosis, hypertension, high or low blood-pressure, obesity and a history of mental health or drug abuse problems. In most cases, you will find several of these factors are at play in addition to dehydration, exhaustion, positional asphyxia and/or high levels of stimulant drugs on-board.

At this time, there is no one “magic” weapon or tool that can applied in all cases and ensure a 100% non-lethal result with 100% compliance. Officers need to be familiar with the proper application of all of the tools at their disposal and evaluate each situation with due consideration for the limitations and risks involved to all parties. This includes a wide array of tools and levels of force, ranging from verbal commands, through hands-on, chemical sprays and electrical devices, impact weapons, K-9 force, less-lethal projectiles, choke-holds and deadly force.

Citizens or communities choosing to deny or remove any of these tools or levels of force from their peace officers are placing the officers and suspects at much greater risk of injury or death. Taking away mid-level options will force officers to either opt for a lower level that will likely be inadequate or ineffective, or opt for a greater level of force that increases the risk to suspects.

Officers are not required or expected to climb the “force ladder” one rung at a time, but rather, are trained to predicate their force, based upon their assessment of the suspect and the suspect’s willingness or demonstrated ability to resist or overcome lower levels of force. Predication relies heavily upon each officer having a number of effective tools at their disposal as well as proper training on the use of those tools and confidence in their ability to apply the chosen tool(s) effectively.

[saizai]

MM4L - Thanks for the thorough response. (As always.)

My understanding is that OC (oleoresin capsacin, IIRC) is the same thing as what is colloquially known as 'mace' or 'pepper spray' and purchasable in ye local army surplus store. And that that, for some people, just pisses 'em off more, despite having the non-pain effects you mentioned. Are we referring to different things?

What do you mean by "immobilizing applications" - repeated tazing? IIRC I've seen vids online of suspects managing to get up and rip the barbs out or otherwise fight back despite having been tazed. (Relatively rare though - the usual effect seems to be "OMFG PLEASE STOP", which is more like what you want.) My guess though is that your response to that is "if they fight off the tazer and are still aggro, then they just earned gunshots".

Which I guess is accurate, but kinda unfortunate.

"Positional asphyxia" = "suspect can't breathe because his head is being pinned to the ground"?

Do they train normally police to e.g. give an arrestee water, check vitals, etc, once they're secure to ensure they stay healthy (ish)? It's probably not going to be the cop's top priority, especially if they just had to risk their own health wreslting the bastard into arrest, but y'know, protect and serve bastards too. :P (And CYA.)


The last 3 paragraphs are preaching to the choir though. ;)

[07chuck]

Then there's this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorZp6a0vCY) who in the end was pepper sprayed, shot with bean bags and pepper balls, pinned to a wall with firehoses and finally pinned by cops with a ladder(not shown on video). This incident happened in Seattle, here they would have just shot him. I was actually familiar with the guy because he panhandled in front of a client of mine... I just never knew he was a ninja.

[mbsv]

i was there that night (headed to the bar that's now noc noc), but didn't really get to see any of that--too big of a crowd and they didn't let people that close.

i don't think they guy even had any demands. just nuts.

i guess they might just use a net now days? it was right next to a parking garage (first floor = crappy restaurant) they could have gotten above easily.

i can't believe that was April 4 1997... hard to dig stuff up.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by saizai
My understanding is that OC (oleoresin capsacin, IIRC) is the same thing as what is colloquially known as 'mace' or 'pepper spray' and purchasable in ye local army surplus store. And that that, for some people, just pisses 'em off more, despite having the non-pain effects you mentioned. Are we referring to different things?
OC is derived from capsicum peppers. It is really just a form of concentrated pepper oil. Chemical "Mace" is the civilian form of CN tear gas.

Mace is a tear gas in the form of an aerosol spray which propels the lachrymatory (tearing agent) mixed with a volatile solvent. It is sometimes used as a self-defense device canister-type weapon and was commonly carried by police from the 1970's through the 1990's. It has been widely replaced by OC among civilian police in the US and Canada.

The original formulation of "Mace" consisted of 1% CN gas in a solvent of sec-butanol, propylene glycol, cyclohexene, and dipropylene glycol methyl ether. Some recent formulations now also include a 1% to 10% Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) solution.

Mace was originally manufactured under the name "Chemical Mace" by Lake Erie Chemical (a former division of Smith & Wesson) in 1962, but is now a registered trademark of Mace Security International. Many other companies now manufacture similar chemical spray products with a variety of dispersal methods (mist, spray, gas and dense foam spray).

Since many newer formulations of Mace (CN) include 1% to 10% solution of OC, it leads understandable to confusion between Mace (CN) and Pepper Spray (OC).

The benefit of CN was that it was fast acting and the fuming effect did not required accurate application. OC requires more precise target placement and is easier to shield (the face and eyes) against. With CN, you could get it on an attacker's chest and it would work as well (or better) than getting it in their face. The drawbacks of CN were that it was pain-based and effects could be overcome by a determined attacker as well as one that was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Lastly, CN does not work on dogs.

I could write another 3 paragraphs on CS gas, but suffice to say it is "military grade" tear gas that is slower acting (taking from 10 to 30 seconds to show effects), but causes a higher level of pain than that often results in confusion and panic that most frequently results in a flight response. It is used for crowd control. Both CS and CN are chemical gasses that are difficult to decontaminate inside a closed space (like a residence or vehicle interior).

Originally posted by saizai
What do you mean by "immobilizing applications" - repeated tazing? IIRC I've seen vids online of suspects managing to get up and rip the barbs out or otherwise fight back despite having been tazed. (Relatively rare though - the usual effect seems to be "OMFG PLEASE STOP", which is more like what you want.) My guess though is that your response to that is "if they fight off the tazer and are still aggro, then they just earned gunshots".Yes, "immobilizing applications" meant repeated cycles. If the barbs are applied properly and with adequate spacing, the only way a person could get up would be if the operator allowed them to get up (without initiating a follow-up cycle) or if a required connection was broken. The thin copper wires can be broken while a suspect is thrashing around or by officers struggling with the suspect on the ground. As for whether they have "earned" gunshots," it would depend upon what threat they present at the time.

Originally posted by saizai
"Positional asphyxia" = "suspect can't breathe because his head is being pinned to the ground"?
There is a whole lot of information out there on positional asphyxia (PA). The science behind "PA" is one of the primary reasons police do not "hog tie" suspects anymore and why we don't leave them face down while handcuffed and with their feet pulled up toward their backs. While struggling to restrain a combative person, getting them face down and folding in their limbs is the most effective way to immobilize them and reduce the risk to officers and bystanders. The problem arrises when the weight of the officers does not allow the suspects lungs to expand. The longer this goes on, the less weight required to cause asphyxia. For a short time, say to apply cuffs and leg restraints, it may not be an issue. But, when you have someone that has put their system into overdrive (with illegal stimulants) and they are dehydrated, exhausted, hypertensive and asthmatic and have been hit with OC or a Tazer... well, it might not take much to put them into shock. Once shock starts, if not treated immediately, the officers might have no idea that their successfuly restrained suspect will pass-out and die in his sleep while enroute to the jail... in about 15 to 30 minutes.

Originally posted by saizai
Do they train normally police to e.g. give an arrestee water, check vitals, etc, once they're secure to ensure they stay healthy (ish)? It's probably not going to be the cop's top priority, especially if they just had to risk their own health wreslting the bastard into arrest, but y'know, protect and serve bastards too. :P (And CYA.)
There is a lot of CYA involved in use-of-force nowadays. And, yes, we do usually have paramedics on scene to check their vitals and/or take them to the hospital to be medically "cleared" prior to booking. These are all things we have learned to do at the cost of dead suspects and resulting lawsuits. Decon after OC application is a no-brainer, flush with lots of fresh cold water (which can be a form of torture in itself, if you are not careful). 15-20 minutes of flowing water and it's just a bad memory. Usually they are grateful to be decontaminated. If they continue to resist, then we tell them to let us know when they are ready for the nightmare to end. ;)

[saizai]

Originally posted by motorman4life
[thorough CO vs CN vs CS explanation snipped

Somebody sure knows their stuff. ;)

Any comment on the spray vs foam question?

Yes, "immobilizing applications" meant repeated cycles. If the barbs are applied properly and with adequate spacing, the only way a person could get up would be if the operator allowed them to get up (without initiating a follow-up cycle) or if a required connection was broken. The thin copper wires can be broken while a suspect is thrashing around or by officers struggling with the suspect on the ground. As for whether they have "earned" gunshots," it would depend upon what threat they present at the time.

That assumes the officer is capable of ensuring that the barbs were applied properly.

If it's a really tense situation (i.e. the officer has high heart rate due to being afraid they might get killed by the crazy dude with the knife), they might miss - and IIRC tazers are a pain to reload. (Might well be wrong on that though.)

So, suppose you do miss or the wires break, and the guy gets up afterwards and is still trying to cut you up? Run? Re-taze? Shoot?

There is a whole lot of information out there on positional asphyxia (PA). The science behind "PA" is one of the primary reasons police do not "hog tie" suspects anymore and why we don't leave them face down while handcuffed and with their feet pulled up toward their backs. While struggling to restrain a combative person, getting them face down and folding in their limbs is the most effective way to immobilize them and reduce the risk to officers and bystanders. The problem arrises when the weight of the officers does not allow the suspects lungs to expand. The longer this goes on, the less weight required to cause asphyxia. For a short time, say to apply cuffs and leg restraints, it may not be an issue. But, when you have someone that has put their system into overdrive (with illegal stimulants) and they are dehydrated, exhausted, hypertensive and asthmatic and have been hit with OC or a Tazer... well, it might not take much to put them into shock. Once shock starts, if not treated immediately, the officers might have no idea that their successfuly restrained suspect will pass-out and die in his sleep while enroute to the jail... in about 15 to 30 minutes.

*nod*

Do you train to detect and treat shock, other than training not to sit on their back longer than necessary to apply cuffs?

There is a lot of CYA involved in use-of-force nowadays. And, yes, we do usually have paramedics on scene to check their vitals and/or take them to the hospital to be medically "cleared" prior to booking. These are all things we have learned to do at the cost of dead suspects and resulting lawsuits.

"Usually have paramedics on scene" = what circumstances? *Any* fight? Just if OC/tazer/LVR/guns/blood involved? *curious*

I'd expect that you can't summon the medics for *everything* because you don't have the time or resources for that. And most of the time they can probably wait 'till you take them to booking - AFAIK most jails have resident medics, though dunno how many are qualified for heavier stuff.

Decon after OC application is a no-brainer, flush with lots of fresh cold water (which can be a form of torture in itself, if you are not careful). 15-20 minutes of flowing water and it's just a bad memory. Usually they are grateful to be decontaminated. If they continue to resist, then we tell them to let us know when they are ready for the nightmare to end. ;)

Always nice to have a carrot to go with the big stick. Plus lets you start the whole god cop / bad cop shtick. ;)

I wonder how many cops are medically trained beyond CPR/FPR & first aid - e.g. EMT 1/2/P. Would seem to be a useful combination.

[saizai]

This might be an interesting variant: http://www.no-contact.com/ - Taser jacket. (Arm it, and whoever touches it that isn't you gets tased.)

Dunno if it'd be compatible with e.g. kevlar vests, load bearing harness, etc.

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by saizai
This might be an interesting variant: http://www.no-contact.com/ - Taser jacket. (Arm it, and whoever touches it that isn't you gets tased.)

Dunno if it'd be compatible with e.g. kevlar vests, load bearing harness, etc.
That looks like a lot of fun to wear when it's 110 degrees outside! The other problem is it now puts you in that "personal space" that you're trying to avoid with the weapons that can be deployed at a distance. You're hands-on when you don't want to be.

[saizai]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
That looks like a lot of fun to wear when it's 110 degrees outside! The other problem is it now puts you in that "personal space" that you're trying to avoid with the weapons that can be deployed at a distance. You're hands-on when you don't want to be.

I'd bet bulletproof vests aren't terribly fun to wear when it's 110 either. :P You obviously have to pick the right gear for the situation.

The benefit I could see in a jacket is not as an offensive weapon mostly - a regular tazer or stun gun will do that better, though the jacket can't easily be wrestled away. Rather, you could activate it in prep if you think it's likely you'll be assaulted, so you can concentrate on other things. It probably adds good bite to standard DCT/CQC.

Of course, everyone prefers to have as little personal involvement as possible - the idea is as a backup.

Incidentally, it might interest y'all to know that there's a cloth available that is proof *against* tazers:

Thor Shield: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=860
or http://www.thorshield.com (has demo video)

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by saizai
I'd bet bulletproof vests aren't terribly fun to wear when it's 110 either. :P You obviously have to pick the right gear for the situation.

They aren't FUN, but I've worn it every single work shift since I started. It becomes your 'battle suit'.

As a backup (or last resort), that jacket would be interesting...but it's obviously not designed for LE work...and I'd hate to lose other weapons for this thing.

[JPM]

Originally posted by saizai
Any comment on the spray vs foam question?


Don't use foam in a wind! :laughing
I like the foam. Ever been hit in the face with shaving cream? What's the first thing you do? Try to smear it off with your hands. Not only do you rub it in more, now it’s all over your hands and working real good.

This is what I currently carry. Works good on tacos also. :laughing

http://pepperball.com/uploads/products/PTILESPRQ205.pdf