Martial arts training vs reality

[saizai]

There are of course various issues, but one I've thought about is this.

Real fights, TTBOMK (correct me if you've been in a bunch and I'm wrong), are nearly always:
a) with the defendant in suddenly surprised (0-5 seconds from point they might know about something being about to happen to initiation of physical combat; possibly a minute or two if there's posturing)
b) short (over in a few seconds normally, 30 sec max for most)

However, martial arts training that I have seen is generally for the exact opposite - cases where you get to psych yourself up and otherwise get into the "right mindstate"; and long drawn-out fights. This is not so bad if you're training for war - or other cases where you are going to be initiating a possibly long confrontation (e.g. SWAT) - but as defensive training it's not so good.

It seems to me therefore that one should train two things:
a) being surprised in varied situations but reacting correctly anyway
- don't know how that could be done in any dojo scenario, without implicitly conditioning someone to be suspicious of a particular person / place / method of attack (not what you want)
b) FAST and effective immediate takedowns / neutralizing techniques
- aikido does this but only partially; it treats the fast stuff as advanced techniques, and trains a lot in slow versions - good for understanding the subtle parts behind it and ensuring safe practice, but bad for conditioning to react that way. Dunno other arts; karate that I've seen is useless in this respect (teaching drawn-out toe-to-toe kata fights).

The drag-out stuff is nice for training stamina and strength, but unless that's how you want people to actually behave in a fight, those things should be trained some other way (weights, running, exercise, etc).

The problem is balancing this against training safety & practicality - you don't want uncontrolled situations during training, you can't practically randomly assault students as they're going about their day normally (for surprise) or do full-contact / full-speed training each time (for speed).

So I'm really not sure how to practically implement this in a training program (for self or structured). It's just a disjoint that bugs me about the training I've had (and watched) vs the applicable situations I've known 1st/2nd/3rd-hand. I don't like conditioning myself incorrectly, and then having it be inapplicable / require unlearning later.

So, hmmm.

Any comments on how you've been trained wrt this issue?

[motorman4life]

There are many schools of thought on this topic among defensive tactics instructors in the LEO field. I have heard many, many instructors emphasize that you need to be prepared for at least a 3-minute battle. That seems easy, but when you are fighting for your life against a determined attacker, it is harder than you may think.

I have done Redman training, using batons, kicks, punches and improvised impact weapons and if you are giving 100%, 3 minutes seems like a lifetime.

When I went to the academy, we had an instructor that used to operate from the philosophy that you never know what is coming and you need to prepare for anything. We would be working out and he would have people take laps around the outside of the gym one at a time while we were working out. When you came back in, you would tap the next person and take their place in the group, sending them to do their sprint around the building. Sometimes an assistant instructor would follow you out, just to push you a bit. The trick was, that sometimes when you came back in, as you came through the door, you would be attacked by a Redman without warning. Sometimes you would be attacked outside on the grass. Some days, you would get hit by 2 attackers. It made it interesting, to say the least. Good training.

[}Dragon{]

This should answer the question saizai-san:

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

But seriously, you should learn a bit from each art and style, and use what works the best for you.

[monkeythumpa]

Like anything else, street fighting or no rules fighting takes practice. I have been in a handful of streetfights and it all about defending yourself until you assess your asailant's vulnerabilities and exploiting any advantage you have.

Here are some things I have learned:

If you take out the other guy's eyes, he will stop fighting.

Don't punch in the face. It will hurt you as muct as the other guy. The throat, the lower tip of the sternum, and the knees give you much more "bang" for the buck and are traditiopnally less defended.

Use your environment, sticks, bottles, and rocks can give you an advantage.

[}Dragon{]

or blackbelt in a can:
http://www.sheriffstuff.com/images/photos/DefTech-1stDefense-Stream.jpg

[silversvs]

99% of police fights end up on the ground. We don't stand toe to toe with people and duke it out.

Most martial arts teach you to devastate your opponent to incapacitate them. Meaning, you are taught to break bones, knockout, gouge eyes, etc. to the point that your opponent can no longer continue the fight.

In police work, our goal is to control people. Most fights do not end up at the level where we can reasonably incapacitate someone by purposely breaking bones, gouging eyes, or cutting off blood flow. There are times where these tactics are appropriate, but in most cases our goal is simply to control a non-cooperative individual.

I studied Akido because in Akido they teach a lot of joint manipulation which I could actually incorporate into my daily duties. The ability to quickly apply joint manipulation to obtain pain compliance results in way fewer fights and higher uses of force.

[petehed]

+1 on Aikido
It's primarily defensive, and teaches you to fight from a normal stance (as if you got caught in a fight while you were walking). I studied it for years as a child and teenager, and in the two fights I've been unlucky to find myself in, it's come in handy, if only because the first thing you learn is to block.
Like silversvs said, you learn joint manipulation, which can be used to break joints, but also to inflict enough pain without breaking to take the wind out of someone who is just hotheaded and took a swing.
It also teaches you how to fall and roll to minimize damage to yourself and get back up quickly. That's come in handy more times than I could have imagined (alot of wiping out on a snowboard or mountain bike or getting tripped on the soccer field).
Good luck.

[caballero]

I'd say your conditioning is the most important part. You could know ten different styles and systems, but if you can't fight, wrestle, contol your opponent for a short period of time, you're toast.
I agree with MM4, any fight yields a code-3 response. And depending on the size of the city you work in and officers on duty, help may be on the way within 3-6 minutes. I've trained in Hapkido, but it isn't worth a damn if I'm huffing and puffing after 30 seconds.

Just my two cents.

[Don Tuite]

According to the Web, there's an Okinawan martial art whose name, rendered in the Roman alphabet, is the same as my last name. (Tuite. My forebears who had that last name came here from Ireland.)

Once I discovered that, I ordered Mr Dillman's book. (To stick on my shelf at work -- I'm unlikely to be much help in a fight, except as someone that other potential victims may be able to outrun.)

Anybody here ever trained in it?

Don Tuite

[saizai]

FWIW, my main training (and preference) has been in aikido. I've done some kung fu and karate also, and a couple classes on police DCT (which was basically a couple aikido basic moves from aikido chained together).

Don't get me wrong - I like the art, philosophically and goal wise. I would rather incapacitate with a pin / control than with sheer damage. Plus, I'm kinda small, and I'm aware that I'm not going to be able to win the "who can get more sheer strength" race - but I can win on skill (not yet, but it's at least achievable). Just the speed/surprise issue of training bugs me.

(I wonder how well one can do a backroll / frontroll while in full duty gear....)

MM4L - I've only done Redman-type training a couple times, but - it seems that it makes it nearly impossible to do anything aikido-like (e.g. joint control and pin). It's definitely a great workout, but it doesn't seem to be training the sort of response that you want (i.e. fast takedown to control).

Sounds like an interesting class to do though. ;)

Also given the amount of ground work, I wonder how well jiujitsu (Brazillian / Gracie) would work out for a cop. Probably not so well vs multiple people or for solo cuffing (how do you cuff someone from a crucifix hold?), but good for getting one person neutralized at least. Should take it sometime.

[petehed]

Originally posted by saizai

Just the speed/surprise issue of training bugs me.


When I was trained, the idea was to get the technique down correctly, thus slowly (and that would take a long time to perfect). However, in my dojo, we also had 'freestyle' where we would be pitted against two or more assailants who would each take turns throwing an attack of their choice (it was actually part of testing for belts as well). They would go at a pace that was just slightly above comfortable, and the attacks were varied, some Aikido style and others were really off the wall depending on how the higher belts felt like screwing with you). This was to teach you exactly how to respond in a surprise environment.
When I watched our Sensei do freestyle with the blacks and browns, there was no doubt about dealing with speed or surprise there... poor bastards :laughing

edit: also, FWIW, in the two times I've been in fights, one was a complete surprise and I was (pleastantly) surprised by how instinctual my motions were considering that, in class, you feel like you're moving in slow motion most of the time.
It's been many years since I took Aikido, but I feel like if push came to shove (so to speak), it's still in there somewhere, and might still help.

[saizai]

Yay randori renshu. ;) I like those too.

But, it doesn't really train reacting under surprise. You know you're entering into it, you get a minute to prepare mentally. It's not as if you're suddenly attacked when in the dressing room.

I've certainly seen my sensei do uberfast takedowns - both from the "few feet away" and "an inch away before suddenly being airborne" perspectives. :laughing But that speed isn't introduced until post black belt.

Perhaps it could be done by practicing e.g. one technique / one variation, repeatedly upping the speed. Would depend on the falling ability of the guy on the receiving end, mostly, as a speed limit. Or for punches, the dodging ability of the nage. ;) Not as much variation, but more speed.

When I've seen this done though there seems to be a significant portion of people who will always try to muscle it through rather than following the lines-of-flow, and you don't want that at high speed or someone may get hurt. So again, dunno how to avoid that.

[wrecks]

You need to train stand up/clinch/and ground!!! especially with resisting opponents. No one can tell where a fight will go. Thats why you have to be proficient in all ranges (stand up/clinch/and ground). My Mixed Martial Art gym is co-owned by a berkeley cop and they have a program/training just for LEO's on Fridays because not only do you have to be good in those ranges you have to worry about the equipment you carry i.e. you bat belt. Anyway, here's a link to check them out. We are in Berkeley. Tell em' wrecks sent ya... ;)

http://www.moderncombatives.com/home.html

[saizai]

wrecks - You're preaching to the choir. ;)

And not really addressing the two points I listed as my concerns in the OP.

[wrecks]

sorry i should read...

my bad! :cool

[silverbelt]

+2 on Aikido

[Outta Control]

Though being in a defensive mode is more common, it can also leave you wide open in some cases. Like saizai said in some cases it only take one good unexpected blow to knock someone out. I've been in situations where I had to prepare my mindset for such an event. Instead of being in a defensive mode I relax and focus on what is happening around and plan ahead as best as I can for the moment hell breaks loose. When it does my goal is to engage the opponent fast enough before he could actually punch me. I know it sounds so Bruce Lee'ish but I one case I am quite sure it actually help reduce the tension of the situation and I have no doubt that the opponent senses something he didn't want to go into. And the other was more of a yelling match with no confrontation at all. Depending on the situation and threat level I typically set my technical mode into an Aiki-JuJitsu but in the case of the first scenario I actually was poised myself into a Jun Fan Gung Fu technique. LOL I can even remember what was my strategy if it does happens. I am glad nothing happened.

[saizai]

I've been knocked on my ass (and very briefly blacked out) from an unexpected punch. Not fun. But, that's the thing you're supposed to prepare for, right?

It certainly wasn't prepared for in any of my training though. (That's my other major issue with aikido - it trains for response to "committed attacks", which translates to "ones where the opponent has already put themselves off balance". Not so good vs speed or someone who keeps their balance to start. :-/ Plus, most people don't have "good ukemi", i.e. they will tense up rather than going with you... again, probably can be overcome, but not if it's not trained for.)

typically set my technical mode into an Aiki-JuJitsu but in the case of the first scenario I actually was poised myself into a Jun Fan Gung Fu technique

Mind explaining what you mean? You lost me on that part.

[Outta Control]

Originally posted by saizai
...Mind explaining what you mean? You lost me on that part.

Sure. being a Jeet Kune Do student I've learn to respect, adapt, and blend different arts that I personally have trained or partially train on. In this instance I was a white belt student in Aiki-JuJitsu and learn the basic lock, chokes, and throws. Though unfortunately couldn't continue my training I truely admired the graceful and non-intrusive techniques on the other hand I've been a Jun Fan Gung Fu student which is Sifu Lee's version of wing chun and kung fu. This is prior to Jeet Kune Do. Okay before I get of tangent here. As you might know Jeet Kune Do is not a martial art form but is a conceptual eclectic art, which mean and smooth and effective transition from one art defensive art form to and combative art form. In the first scenario I mentioned I was preparing myself to initiate the Jun Fan art to deliver a proactive strike. Then possibly follow up with another form based on his reaction. And for the use of the Aiki art, if the opponent reacts in a manner that requires more of an offensive approach I could transition into other art form to deal with the counter. It could be either in a Silat or a Muay Thai form but this should give you a better idea.

FYI: Some think it is easy to switch one art form to another. A good example is if you have watched Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne displayed various different art form during his initiation to Legion, but it was what I call a "hard art seperation". As opposed to a smooth transition that should throw the opponent off thinking it is the same consistant art form. I hope this helps.

[FrigginChi]

We had some Krav Maga instruction while in the Corps. That is some real life useable stuffs:)

[JPM]

All the different training is good (My department issues and we train with OPN’s, police nunchaku) but you need to know how to stay on your feet and some old fashion punching and blocking. I have had a couple of times, especially when the suspects on drugs or alcohol, that all the trained techniques did not work. I came down to old fashion muscle, blows, and hog pile to take 'em down.

http://www.orcuttopn.com/

[wrecks]

ok sorry to respond a little late but you cannot train for a suprise attack or any type of sneak attack. The only thing you can do to lesson their impact if your a LEO is through conditioning and learning good defensive control techniques for all delivery systems. A lot can be taken from MMA or Greco Roman. Our gym does it all the time. All delivery systems are the same no matter what martial art. A punch is a punch a kick is a kick, a head lock is a head lock so you can put any name on it you want it.

If you've ever seen what happens in an attack or a suprise attack for that matter is victim gets hit and suprised and attacker takes advantage of suprise to pummel victim or gain tactical advantage with a weapon etc. A way we train for this is closing the distance or making distance. Which means when you get hit and if you're in clinch range goto clinch and control. A lot of Martial arts forget about the clinch. Thats one of the most important things in MMA or in real fights because if the fight doesn't end up on the ground for sure there will be a brief clinch. On the other side of that coin if you are knocked back and have some distance run away to get composure. Some ground guys jump to guard (bjj). Thats all good if its a MMA match or sparring to get composure but in the real world the street is hard there could be glass on the ground multiple attackers etc. Best to run if you have space!

As for training your not supposed to go all out! What is important is progressive resistance. Our fighters in our gym never go all out because that would endanger them for their upcomming fights because of maybe getting injured. The most important thing to take to training for real is resistance. Thats why you see all the Martial Art styles that actually work have all types of resistance such as boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, where your opponent actually moves and uses what they have to elude you or hit you not some 1 step sparring crap. There is a time for 100% full on sparring and a time for progessive resistance. For example, you're working the headlock escape. First you work the technique with no resistance, then you pick it up to 50% then 80% to how ever high you want to practice. That way you prevent injury and still have a functional way to train not to mention you will still have a training partner the next day ;)

[saizai]

BTW in case it wasn't clear - what I'm talking about here applies very much to motorcycle accidents also.

As with martial arts you can increase your foresight and avoid incidents.... but those you don't avoid are often going to be warning of a matter of seconds and action of even less.

Dunno how much training reaction speed is generalizable; I've seen plenty of studies on it being *doable* certainly through training, and a very limited sort of generalization / crossover if the situation is similar and the response is similar, but I haven't seen anything for or against it being possible to generally train to "react quickly to stuff". My educated guess is that it's not possible though (except perhaps through good use of training a generic skill).


wrecks - Progressive resistance is good.

However, what would you say about e.g. the normal aikido approach, which is to train people to have 'good ukemi', i.e. to go with the throw and not resist it so that they can roll / slap / fly out of it with minimal injury? It trains good response, BUT it also trains the thrower on *cooperative* targets. Given that aikido is all about flow, this ironically impacts it more, because the direction / movement of someone stiffening or counter-pushing is quite different from that of someone going with the program.

[HtChic]

I have not gone through any LEO training (yet), so what I have to say is soley from a martial art stand point.

First off, not all martial arts are created equal, and there are very few here in the US especially, that are actually comprehensive enough to be useful in a real world situation. I believe the art I study is one of those few - but joing manipulations, grappling, controlling, and if needed, more extreme measures are all part of the curriculum (there are still forms, basics, kicking tests, and sparring - which all serve a purpose, but do not apply directly to a real fight or defense situation).

It is difficult to train for unexpected things, but reactions can be taught - one thing we do is what we call "bull in the pen". Yes, you know that someone (or several people) are going to grap you, but you stand there with your eyes closed and must react and deal with each of the attackers within so many seconds (the time gets shortened with more training). Although you are prepared for an attack, the attackers can grab you or position themselves where ever they choose. You learn to act quickly to the situation.

These all only close quarters manuevers, not dealing with a threat from a distance - so there in lies one of the things you need to understand about any martial art that I know of - it is always relatively close range.

There are degrees that can be applied in many joint manipulations - for example, my husband is difficult to perform many of these on - which has been an advantage for me training with him in that you learn how to increase the pressure without taking it to the point of actually breaking things. Throws and take downs are similar, and there are ways to do it effectively and nicely, and ways to destroy various body parts (one particular lock out that I like, although have not mastered well yet, is great - either the person complies, or each bone down their arm from finger to shoulder will eventually break or seperate - nasty, but effective).

If you study a truly comprehensive art (or mix them up, although I personally believe that is less effective if you have other options), then there are things that can be VERY applicable to real life situations - however, wisdom lies in knowing what can be transferred over, and what is a tool to help you in your training, or something that is done out of tradition as opposed to actual applications.

An art that is willing to grow and change (a living art) will be more useful as well since parts of the curriculum should begin to include more modern tactics (knives, guns, etc).

[saizai]

HtChic - What do you study?

Your favored lock sounds like what the cops call "wrist twist" and aikido calls "sankyo" (3rd technique - http://images.google.com/images?q=sankyo&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&sa=N&tab=wi). It's an exaggeration to say that *all* the bones will break or separate; the weakest link will fail, progressively. That probably means a shoulder dislocation. Good technique though, and great effort to effect ratio once applied. Has a problem if the hand is slippery though.

AFAIK the only responses to being at gunpoint at range (i.e. they're not right next to you) are:
a) surrender and do what they want
b) shoot them first
c) run really fucking fast to cover and then start shooting - or running harder
d) get them to not shoot you while you close distance and use a close-range technique

... in about that order of preference / likelihood to not get you shot.

[HtChic]

I study Hwa Rang Do - not an acadamy here in the bay area (yet - our instructor and us are being required to get one started either here or where he is in Turlock). There are a number of HRD schools in the LA area, and a couple other scattered around the state - and across the country there are "spots" where someone has started a club and it ended up expanding out....

We have over 3000 different techniques (obviously, many are variations of the same basic idea, but one way may work in one situation, and one in another).

A good book to check out to see what we're all about, and to get some great info is "Hwa Rang Do: Defend, Take down, Submit" by Taejoon Lee, published by Black Belt. Of course, there is also a World website for those interested...

[wrecks]

Originally posted by saizai
However, what would you say about e.g. the normal aikido approach, which is to train people to have 'good ukemi', i.e. to go with the throw and not resist it so that they can roll / slap / fly out of it with minimal injury? It trains good response, BUT it also trains the thrower on *cooperative* targets. Given that aikido is all about flow, this ironically impacts it more, because the direction / movement of someone stiffening or counter-pushing is quite different from that of someone going with the program.

I believe aikido is great! The guys from our gym who've studied Aik move well. Good stuff and yes I also agree that being thrown without resistance is correct in order know the throws in order to prevent them later from happening to you But when practicing Aik a fair amount of progressive resistance should be used so the Aikido studs will know what its like fight someone who is attribute based.

[RhythmRider]

If you want to win fights, learn to wrestle. Wrestling is all about controlling your opponent. My first reaction to any attack is to grab the nearest limb of the attacker and use it to put them on the ground. if he's throwing a punch, grab the arm he's punching you with. From there you can apply a number of painful submission holds, or pin the person down long enough to use a tazer or pepper spray. Of course the downside to this is apparent when you try to wrestle someone who grossly outweighs you, but knowing how to wrestle definitely provides a large advantage in any defensive situation.

[Outta Control]

Grappling is great but I am not sure if you really want to grapple on asphalt. I sure wouldn't want to but in any case reverting back to the original post. Even though police and military are trained in some form or fashion of hand to hand combat I have yet to them utilize it. Most of the incidents that I have seen either watching Cops or some other law enforcement reality show have ever used hand to hand combat. What I usually witness are talks goes to commands then guns. I can think of a few cases where a life would have been saved if the presence of a firearm what not used. One case that came to mind was the shooting death of a middle aged asian woman who yielded a butchers knief and understandibly it is a dangerous weapon but the police, I feel, truly didn't evaluated the whole situation and condition. They could have used a baton or a chair to push her back to the wall and disarm the woman. But instead guns were drawn automatically that resulted in her death. I believe when an emotionally enraged person sees a gun pointed at them they feel that their reasoning and selfworth are not valid. Which in this case the woman, from what I heard, raise the knief and took a couple of steps and was shot. So the question is if this is standard routine to automatically draw your weapon then why have a police self defense course. Just my 0.02 cent.

[saizai]

FWIW - please keep (at least somewhat :P) on the original topic of a) surprise and b) quick-finish training. The various arguments re what techniques / arts are best generally, whether you want to grapple on asphalt, etc. (and when shootings are justified), have been seriously overdone and are flamewar-prone; hence why I asked a pretty specific question. ;)

Thanks.

[bmer97]

I'm trained in martial arts. Practice on B.O.B. every day.

A big part of martial arts training is to AVOID surprise. This is 99% of the solution.

If surprised, or if you see the situation becoming dangerous: run like hell. if your girl friend is getting you in dangerous situations, get a new gf.

Have Concealed Carry Permit: Sig 357 quick access fanny pack, or alternatively N.A. 22 magnum in pocket; 22 LR often a backup.

Kill before you are killed.

:sniper

[Burner]

i used to train in socal in a not so well known martial art, Kung Fu San Soo. it's similar to aikido, but i think it's better. we'd get a lot of guys coming to our class from other martial arts such as aikido and krav maga. it has everything- kicks, punches, leverages, take downs, ground fighting, throws, hold breaks, attack moves, fighting with one hand and no hands, and my instructor taught knife and baton offense and defense tactics. also mass attacks (fighting more than one person at the same time). i learned a lot of counters to moves as well, especially a lot of brazilian jiu-jitsu moves.

my instructor used to teach at the orange county sheriff's academy back in the day. i think marine force recon and perhaps seals used to train in san soo too. i believe it is the best martial art out there for street fighting. however, you won't find many competent instructors left out there, as the art is dying. too many newer generation masters teaching it wrong and not in its pure form, making it look like shit. my instructor was a first generation student of the late jimmy woo, who brought the art to the US from china, and was the only student to receive years of private training from him. he also wrote the black belt instructor's manuals.