Question regarding probable cause (firearms transport)

[motorman4life]

Hey MM,

I had a question regarding probable cause. I understand that to search a vehicle an officer must either have the consent of the driver or probable cause. I understand the "plain sight" rule that gives officers the power to confiscate illegal objects in plain sight.

My question is in relation to firearms transport. I often shoot trap at a local skeet range. If I were returning from the range with my shotgun oncovered laying on the back seat (unloaded and action open) AND out of the reach of the driver, and I was pulled over, does the gun in plain view (even though it is being transported in accordance with California law) give the officer probable cause to search my vehicle? What if there was a blanket covering most of the gun and only the butt was partially exposed, however it was clear that the weapon was a long-gun and not a handgun.

Thanks for your responce and thanks for putting up with the crap you face by being a LEO. I'm considering a career in Law Enforcement after I graduate...

We covered this topic at length in the original "LEO Questions Answered" thread:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70232
It is a big thread and hard to search.

Here are a few other good threads pertaining to firearms:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172626
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154578
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165286
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164543
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125614


In brief, yes. Officers need probable cause (PC) or consent to search (CtoS) a vehicle unless you fit into some narrow categories, such as being on probation/parole or enterin/within a restricted area, like an airport or military base.

That said, the penal code does allow for any firearm to be inspected without PC or CtoS. Yes, even if it is being transported 100% lawfully. If they see any firearm in your vehicle or have PC to believe one is there, they can inspect it, with or without your consent. That does not necessarily give them the right to inpect your entire vehicle without CtoS or PC. Each situation is different and must be weighed on its own merits.

A good example is a couple of guys coming back from the valley with 2 unloaded shotguns, exposed in a rack in the back window of their pick-up or laying in the back seat, exposed or covered. Say they stop and In-and-Out on their way home and an officer contacts them in the parking lot after seeing the bag of decoys in their cargo area. He can lawfully remove and inspect those shotguns (to ensure they are being transported in an unloaded condition). He can also run the serial numbers, if they are exposed to plain view during the lawful inspection. As for looking into the locked footlockers or unopened coolers or duffelbags in the back if the truck or the glovebox or console or a gymbag on the floor, No. Not without probable cause or consent.

You are not required to lock up ammo. But, in cases where you are transporting an unlocked (and unloaded) firearm, I suggest you put all live ammo in a locked container and put the container in a seperate area of the vehicle. This is something you are not required to do, by law, but I do it myself and suggest any law abiding sportsman, such as yourself, do the same, to protect themselves from potential risks or accusations that may arise if they are stored together and unsecure. It's just not worth the risk.

I hope this answers your questions. Please read the threads above and let me know if you have any other questions.

[RolnCode3]

I still hear questions regarding the definition of 'loaded'.

The PC clearly says "affixed or attached", yet I often hear the explanation that the ammunition and firearm are easily accessible or already in possession.

Do you guys take the letter of the law...or is there something I've been missing my whole career?

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
I still hear questions regarding the definition of 'loaded'.

The PC clearly says "affixed or attached", yet I often hear the explanation that the ammunition and firearm are easily accessible or already in possession.

Do you guys take the letter of the law...or is there something I've been missing my whole career?

Hey- I don't know current case law.

Making a long story short: If the ammo is easily accessible (within arms reach) the firearm is considered to be loaded.

I was involved in an off-duty arrest, at a convenience store, during a conversation where the suspect who showed me bullets in his pocket while reaching for change- I said- "Oh! What are those for?", and he went on bragging about making a "a kill" :wtf with his SKS that's in his backseat. I walked past the car on my way out (that was out of place in that neighborhood and gang banger wanna be's don't frequent the area), and saw the weapon where he said it was :wtf then dropped a dime to the dispatchers as he took off.

The case held.

[Junkie]

so if you have ammo easily accessible and the firearm locked in the trunk of your car, does the fact that one of them isn't easily accessible mean that its legal?

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by Junkie
so if you have ammo easily accessible and the firearm locked in the trunk of your car, does the fact that one of them isn't easily accessible mean that its legal?

I define easily accessible as within arms reach. If the gun is in the locked trunk, that's not readily accessible. In other words you can't load it in 60 seconds.

Not to bitch about the gun laws, but it was nice living in NV where as a resident, your car is an extension of your home, therefore you can carry a loaded firearm in it (I think except for Vegas- Clark County has their own set of local ordinances).

For the LEO's working there- you can always bet there is gonna be a gun in the car... They are most likely to be a law abiding citizen.

[Junkie]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
I define easily accessible as within arms reach. If the gun is in the locked trunk, that's not readily accessible. In other words you can't load it in 60 seconds.

Not to bitch about the gun laws, but it was nice living in NV where as a resident, your car is an extension of your home, therefore you can carry a loaded firearm in it (I think except for Vegas- Clark County has their own set of local ordinances).

For the LEO's working there- you can always bet there is gonna be a gun in the car... They are most likely to be a law abiding citizen. oh yeah, that reminds me of a question I had before. Is it possible to legally carry a pistol on a motorcycle without a concealed carry permit? for example, if I have it under the seat, not accessible without removing the seat, and with a trigger lock (as well as locked to something else so its not going to come loose), is that legal? How about that + ammo in a locked box in a tank bag or backpack?

[JPM]

Originally posted by Junkie
oh yeah, that reminds me of a question I had before. Is it possible to legally carry a pistol on a motorcycle without a concealed carry permit? for example, if I have it under the seat, not accessible without removing the seat, and with a trigger lock (as well as locked to something else so its not going to come loose), is that legal? How about that + ammo in a locked box in a tank bag or backpack?

Only if there is superglue in the lock keyholes. Just kidding, almost. In you scenario it would be legal (And a little overboard, but better safe that sorry).

[pilotimb]

Good info, thanks MM