re: new riders & 600's. kinda long

[Karbon]

I copy and pasted this from another site, this is the short version. The writeup goes into the topic of newbies on 600 (or bigger cc bike for that matter). Thoughts and comments? rebuttals?



One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:

1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)



ect ect.

[V4]

:thumbup

thanks for posting...

some of it is so funny and true...:laughing

[Xenos]

Total hasty generalization. I hear a lot of people recomeneding a Sv650, hell I was recomended a SV650. When people ask me how I got into riding or things about bikes, I always direct them to take the MSF class. After that it's all up to them.
:2cents

[cardinal03]

I want a Habayasu.

[cardinal03]

Originally posted by Xenos
Total hasty generalization. I hear a lot of people recomeneding a Sv650, hell I was recomended a SV650. When people ask me how I got into riding or things about bikes, I always direct them to take the MSF class. After that it's all up to them.
:2cents

Because almost no one is willing to start with a 250 or 500, and the SV is more forgiving than a 636 or GSXR600.

[Karbon]

the rest of the article leads into literature new riders should read. As i understand, the guy who wrote the article teaches an MSF class.

[Abunai]

I did managed to buy and sell da 250 at the same price i got it for.

[Jimbo007]

I appreciate the arguement about resale value. That's totally true. I have a bike from '83 that's the best six hundred dollars I've ever spent. I rode it today and left the Duc at home.

Also, it's true that riding a slow bike fast is more fun than riding a fast bike slow. And that is an arguement that squids will listen to.

But people are going to buy what they want to ride, and if they really love it, maybe they'll be a little carefull. I sold my TL1000 to my friend as his first bike and he kept it sane (age 20), so it can happen. He's on a 600 now.

[RhythmRider]

Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.

[Junkie]

Originally posted by cardinal03
Because almost no one is willing to start with a 250 or 500, and the SV is more forgiving than a 636 or GSXR600. there sure are a lot of EX250s and EX500s around considering nobody is willing to start on them

[puti]

doesnt matter what bike you start with. you start off nervous cuz you're not in full control and your mind and body arent in tune with the bike. this equals your lack of proper actions when you dont have time to think and your reflexes take over. once you get that down and you become comfortable with the basics, you gain confidence. thats when everyone eats shit. you learn from that or you dont. cant fix stupid.

[Linty]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.


I think the point trying to be made is not whether you are responsible enough to keep your wrist in check, it's developing your skills and experience.

If you start riding on a fairly fast bike (I'm sure that 750 has some giddy'up), some people believe that sacrifices or short-changes some skills and experience you would learn on a slower bike. Things like looking where you want to go/through the turn, evasive manuvers while cornering and cornering speed. All things that WILL save your life and make you a better rider, without the constant "don't get on the throttle too much" rattling around in your head to distract you. With a slower bike, that's gone. You get to focus more on the important shit.

I don't know ya bud, and hope you don't think I'm passing judgment or anything. Just flippin' it to my side of the coin. You're right, people learn differently and at different paces, and however you want to ride your bike is no ones business but yours. It just comes across kind of callous when you say you ride a 125 at MSF for a couple days, then ride your 750 around town for a few days, and think that is plenty of experience to "safely commute wherever I feel like going" on the bike, that's all.

A good attitude will make you feel good and perhaps keep you in check, but experience and skills will save your ass when that attitude isn't enough.



My .02

[shraz]

600's are getting faster & faster. New riders need to go with something smaller just like motogp is going to switch to 800cc due to increase in performance that cant keep up with tires. It would be nice for manufactures to start doing more 400-500cc bikes for starters.

[Abunai]

the style of ex250 and ex500 are old. If only they look like a sportbike (some may say different but hey majority rules), maybe people will actually see them as something they want than just an obligation. If i got a choice I don't wanna a bike that I don't even appreciate and the only kind of bike they have the looks/ and can be appreciataeble/abused seems to be 600+.

[whezzy]

i agree with gsxRider750 that a good attitude will no doubt decrease your chances of "riding in over your head". i also agree with linty that experience is in fact, what it is...experience.

my input is that i started with the msf with no experience and picked up an r6 a week later. i gots bout 6K mi. on it but its been a bumpy ride. for the "stubborn" would-be newbs out there, given the lack of our experience, our attitude is about the only thing that we have that will save our arse. keep it in check and ride safely. just my .o2 cents

[Junkie]

Originally posted by Abunai
the style of ex250 and ex500 are old. If only they look like a sportbike (some may say different but hey majority rules), maybe people will actually see them as something they want than just an obligation. If i got a choice I don't wanna a bike that I don't even appreciate and the only kind of bike they have the looks/ and can be appreciataeble/abused seems to be 600+. if Kawasaki would modernize the chassis and plastic a bit, I bet they would sell a lot more EX250s. even more would be possible if they updated the engine a bit. however, doing either of those would cost money.

[silverbelt]

Nice article about new riders on 600 supersports. Unfortunately, pride and peer pressure are too much for newbies to overcome and they inevitably start on bikes that they really have no business being on.

If they are lucky, they'll be around long enough to enjoy a lifetime of motorcycling. Statistically, the odds are overwhelmingly against them.

Its too bad bikes like the 250 and the SV get such bad wraps, they really are alot of fun to ride, if only newbies would allow their ego's to do so.

[ChuckBecker]

Originally posted by silverbelt
Unfortunately, pride and peer pressure are too much for newbies to overcome and they inevitably start on bikes that they really have no business being on.

That's it in a nutshell. There are people who get into an activity for internal reasons: the challenge, learning something new, the feeling they get inside from doing something well. There are other people who get into activities for external reasons, basically the response they get from other people. The former group will understand, without knowing anything else (as the author of the original piece points out) that they have a lot to learn. The latter group just wants to jump on something cool and go. Until someone figures out how to make a 250-400cc twin seem like the coolest thing ever, that's the way things are gonna stay.

[VillageIdiot]

The ex250 is an overblown zuma IMO.

here let me sum it up.

Engine = nada there
Suspension = shit
Chassis = thats not a chassis it's a fucking schwinn frame.

of course these are just my observations.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by ChuckBecker
Until someone figures out how to make a 250-400cc twin seem like the coolest thing ever, that's the way things are gonna stay.

SV400s are pretty damn cool!

And while it's not a twin, the RVF400 has to be one of the coolest bikes around, while the CBR250RR has got to be one of the coolest sounding bikes around, with a redline of 18,500 :)

If only they were sold here...

[ChuckBecker]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
If only they were sold here...

There is that little problem ;)

[afm199]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.


http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188414

[Hoologan]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.

You obviously didn't read the last part of the article... Here it is again.

Originally posted by Karbon
A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying “600cc bike are OK to start with”. Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you’ve entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don’t listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)

[Hoologan]

Originally posted by afm199
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188414

:laughing This is the best part of the above post, and it totally reinforces what #1 in THIS thread is all about, "Knowledge of Subject Matter".

Originally poted by GSXRider750
That didn't stop me from climbing up the hill at the same speed I normally do, though. I hit the top of the hill and went around the first sharp right hander in a 80% lean with no issues, but right after that there is a left that requires some trail braking, and I was coming into it way too hot... I clenched my butt cheeks and squeezed the front brake a little while trail braking with the REAR as I narrowly avoided driving right off the edge of the road, where nothing awaited me except for slippery gravel and a really unforgiving wall of dirt.

[954Rider]

This whole thing about new 600cc riders is really starting to get fucking old. I'm sick and tired of hearing it. At least half the people here started on something like a 600.

[ChuckBecker]

Originally posted by 954Rider
At least half the people here started on something like a 600.

I doubt it, but at this point that's just my opinion.

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ABN
The ex250 is an overblown zuma IMO.

here let me sum it up.

Engine = nada there
Suspension = shit
Chassis = thats not a chassis it's a fucking schwinn frame.

of course these are just my observations.

It's painfully obvious that you haven't ridden with Mr. Jaehne... :laughing

[Kameron808]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! ...I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill
So your definition of "quite comfortable" is riding way over your head at night and almost eating shit into the side of a hill? Cool.:cool

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Hooli
It's painfully obvious that you haven't ridden with Mr. Jaehne... :laughing :x I'm a n00b read MO FO

<---------------------------------------Besides the great Jahne wouldn't want me riding with him.........:hand

:p

[V4]

FWIW:

Over 20 years ago, I started on a CB750 and in a few months, I was confident to move up to a GS1100E....

I was very confident with my riding that I began to do wheelies in a short period of time and within that time, my wheelies got higher and was able to keep it for a long distance....

Yes, I was THE man, even though a teen but it abruptly ended when I lost control of a wheelie and crashed the GS1100E into a parked police car in front of 2 fine officers who witnessed the whole event.....

Moral of the story: Over-confidence can bite ya back, suckas...

Thank you....

[Rek3030]

You know...


Im pretty sure a car hitting you on a 250 is going to kill you just as nice as a car hitting you on a 600.

[Jimbo007]

The Hyosung 250 Comet looks pretty good. I went and checked them out at SF moto. Some of the welds looked like boogers, but that little aircooled twin should be pretty fun. I think they were asking just over $3k, which would be about the same as the Virago 250 or the Ninja.

[faz]

Originally posted by 954Rider
This whole thing about new 600cc riders is really starting to get fucking old. I'm sick and tired of hearing it.


Winter time is here... I froze my ass off this morning riding my beloved CBR to work... I should have taken the sofa-cycle, but the CBR was neglected for a long time and needed to get out, to get the juices flowing.

Anyhow, I didn't see any riders out there, none. I am sure it has to do with the weather, and probably more so the holiday season.

But, I can see why these discussions pop up in forums now, people need something to do. :)

And BTW, no one forced me to click on this thread. I did it all on my own.:p

[Stormdragon]

Originally posted by faz


And BTW, no one forced me to click on this thread. I did it all on my own.:p


So, you're admitting that this is all your fault? :laughing

[Climber]

Originally posted by afm199
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188414
:thumbup Thanks for posting the perfect rebuttal! :laughing

One of the things that new riders just don't get is that just because they haven't had a close call doesn't mean that they are seasoned riders, it just means that they've been lucky to have not been put in a bad situation....yet.

What they also don't realize is that it will happen and if they are over-confident they will likely come out of it badly.

[jiffy]

Start on what you feel is right, but arguing against starting small is ignorant. Starting out small is how we as humans learn. Did you run before you walked, did you learn to ride a bike on a mountain bike, learn to drive in a 1000hp car? It is simply easier and more forgiving to learn on a smaller more newbie friendly anything. Can you start bigger? Of course you can start on a R1.

No one ever said it wasn't possible to start on a 600cc or above bike. The point of starting small is that it is easier and you are more likely to have a better learning experience on your smaller bike.

[yella600rr]

Originally posted by V4
FWIW:

Over 20 years ago, I started on a CB750 and in a few months, I was confident to move up to a GS1100E....

I was very confident with my riding that I began to do wheelies in a short period of time and within that time, my wheelies got higher and was able to keep it for a long distance....

Yes, I was THE man, even though a teen but it abruptly ended when I lost control of a wheelie and crashed the GS1100E into a parked police car in front of 2 fine officers who witnessed the whole event.....

Moral of the story: Over-confidence can bite ya back, suckas...

Thank you....

I WANT PICS MANG! :laughing :laughing :laughing

Well in the horse world we would tell people to start on a Shetland pony and then work your way up to the Thoroughbred. But it is really embarrassing to race a Shetland Pony.

[silverbelt]

Originally posted by faz
[B]Winter time is here... I froze my ass off this morning riding my beloved CBR to work...

What a pussy :laughing

It was actually warmer this morning than it was last week :p

[Feanor]

Any discussion in which a rider dissuades an individual from selecting a certain kind of bike as a "starter bike" is not trying to protect an individual, but in fact simply trying to play the favorable odds in a general sense.

Because the odds are stacked against a new rider on a 600cc supersport or 1000cc superbike, when compared to a more sedate choice, it's prudent to adopt the "road of caution" in dealing with such questions of "what's a good bike to start on"

Though it's been said before, I agree that it's far more helpful for each new rider to look into themselves and at themselves honestly as people and make the determination.

Ask yourself questions like "Do I enjoy the thrill of risk?" "Why do I like the Sportbike over the v-twin naked 650?" "Have I ever experienced being seriously injured/debilitated" "Am I trying to impress someone other than myself?" "Is the motorcycle for Fun? or practical reasons?"

After answering a battery of such questions the overall question makes more sense and becomes more specific and more meaningful than a stranger playing the odds with you.

I would think that someone getting a 1000cc superbike as a first bike because it was powerful, fast and He/She wanted to impress his/her friends, but hated taking risks and was a pansy when it came to experiencing speed and was also DEATHLY afraid of injury, would stand a far better chance of avoiding injury and death than a rider with 20 years riding experience who loved thrills and speed and regularly engaged in activities like base jumping, extreme rafting, and free climbing.

When a person lays into you for wanting a certain kind of bike as a starter (which is not generally accepted as a starter bike) they are not insulting you personally, but merely playing a range of numbers at the roulette wheel because they do not know you and that is their best sweeping chance of safeguarding all riders including you. Very much like a speed limit on the freeway is meant to ensure the probability of safety even though it has been proven that some people are far safer at 100mph than others at 40mph...

Stefan

[Shooter]

I was busting around the neighborhood on the bike the other day, testing out the new suspension. Yes, GASP, I upgraded a 250!!!! A couple of guys came over while I was stopped and said "That's a nice bike, is that a 650?" I just laughed!

[Hooli]

Originally posted by V4
I was THE man, even though a teen but it abruptly ended when I lost control of a wheelie and crashed the GS1100E into a parked police car in front of 2 fine officers who witnessed the whole event.....


Proof that you canna' handle the powa' of a Suzuki! :laughing

[Feanor]

Originally posted by Shooter
A couple of guys came over while I was stopped and said "That's a nice bike... "

Were they made out of a Mimetic Poly-Alloy? Actually that's a stupid question because if they were, you wouldn't be posting right now :)

Stefan

[yella600rr]

I have no ego so I had no problem starting on a Honda C200T (I think that is what that ugly pos was). Gads it had chrome nerf bars. :laughing :laughing I bought it for $250 bucks and sold it for $200. Well except it had some type of electrical problem so starting it was well a roll of the dice.

Then I got a XR250L that had the smog crap removed, a better pipe and was jetted, $2100. I had that bike for 10 years sold it for $1200. I road it on the street, moto-x track, flat track, fire roads and single tracked. It was really a crappy ride for all those applications but I loved that bike. Sold it so I could by an XR50 for the kids $900, really, it is for the kids.

Stepped up to a KDX200 (H20 2-smoker) $1700, got it dual plated $700, it is much better than the 250 at all of the above. I don't ride it on the street much because people get all offended by the smell and smoke. I need get to a BARF dirt ride one of these days at Hollister or Clear Creek.

I was actually shopping for a more street pleasing dual sport ride when I discovered my 600 sport bike, $8600 OTD. I didn’t take the MSF course because I’ve had my M1 for over 10 years. So I found Star School at T-hill. That two day ride at the track was a life changing experience for me. I’m so happy I have enough disposable income to dump into gear and track days. In the past I wouldn’t have had the money so it is the right bike for me at the right time.

I had a GSXR750 for about year too (helping a friend with $$). Gads that was an awesome bike but I sold it back to my buddy.

I just bought a non running Virago 250, $1500 so if I get it running it should be a fun little in town scooter.

And for Christmas I got ½ of a ttr125 and the other ½ has been promised to me for my birthday. So I might someday end up with a mini-motard bike yet.

So for me it has nothing to do with the size of the bike, the type of the bike, speed or its pose factor. I love to ride and I will ride anything.
:teeth

[yella600rr]

Feanor, as usual very well stated. I agree.

Not sure if your target audience has enough attention span to read the entire verbiage to absorb the concept.

Who is the resident cliff note writer for Feanor's epilogues?

Originally posted by Feanor
Any discussion in which a rider dissuades an individual from selecting a certain kind of bike as a "starter bike" is not trying to protect an individual, but in fact simply trying to play the favorable odds in a general sense.

Because the odds are stacked against a new rider on a 600cc supersport or 1000cc superbike, when compared to a more sedate choice, it's prudent to adopt the "road of caution" in dealing with such questions of "what's a good bike to start on"

Though it's been said before, I agree that it's far more helpful for each new rider to look into themselves and at themselves honestly as people and make the determination.

Ask yourself questions like "Do I enjoy the thrill of risk?" "Why do I like the Sportbike over the v-twin naked 650?" "Have I ever experienced being seriously injured/debilitated" "Am I trying to impress someone other than myself?" "Is the motorcycle for Fun? or practical reasons?"

After answering a battery of such questions the overall question makes more sense and becomes more specific and more meaningful than a stranger playing the odds with you.

I would think that someone getting a 1000cc superbike as a first bike because it was powerful, fast and He/She wanted to impress his/her friends, but hated taking risks and was a pansy when it came to experiencing speed and was also DEATHLY afraid of injury, would stand a far better chance of avoiding injury and death than a rider with 20 years riding experience who loved thrills and speed and regularly engaged in activities like base jumping, extreme rafting, and free climbing.

When a person lays into you for wanting a certain kind of bike as a starter (which is not generally accepted as a starter bike) they are not insulting you personally, but merely playing a range of numbers at the roulette wheel because they do not know you and that is their best sweeping chance of safeguarding all riders including you. Very much like a speed limit on the freeway is meant to ensure the probability of safety even though it has been proven that some people are far safer at 100mph than others at 40mph...

Stefan

[KoRnHoLyO]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.

Comuting after riding around town a little bit. What are you going to do when that car next to you wants your spot. Or you venture up to a twisty road. :teeth

[Hero]

Personally, I'd wait until several mags have had time to do a 600 bike shoot out. Several mags do a good job at discussing strenths and weaknesses of each bike compared to others in the class. Don't get lured by only one but several of these bike to bike comparisons. These reviews will have several things in common and in many cases, things that will be quite contrary. From there, you should be able to make a decision from your head. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and only you know which one you can see yourself riding with with a smile on your face.

[Kameron808]

Originally posted by Hero
Personally, I'd wait until several mags have had time to do a 600 bike shoot out. Several mags do a good job at discussing strenths and weaknesses of each bike compared to others in the class. Don't get lured by only one but several of these bike to bike comparisons. These reviews will have several things in common and in many cases, things that will be quite contrary. From there, you should be able to make a decision from your head. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and only you know which one you can see yourself riding with with a smile on your face.
Not reading the thread FTW!

[faz]

Originally posted by silverbelt
What a pussy :laughing

It was actually warmer this morning than it was last week :p

I ride to work everyday, in my sofa-cycle, which is a lot warmer than the CBR, even in colder weather conditions. :teeth

I wish I were a pussy. :p

[tsyoung]

Originally posted by Jimbo007
The Hyosung 250 Comet looks pretty good. I went and checked them out at SF moto. Some of the welds looked like boogers, but that little aircooled twin should be pretty fun. I think they were asking just over $3k, which would be about the same as the Virago 250 or the Ninja.

The Hyosung bikes are really cool. They look flashy and have a lot of nice features for the price.

[gixxerboy55]

It's amazing GSXR750 rider, almost runs into side of hill, and then has the balls to post on this thread like he knows what he's talking about. I guess the truth hurts so he had to post. This is the best post I have read in a long time it's so right on, figures it was penned by an MSF instructor

[KaWySiCkHuNdReD]

On the 250ex's I've lost the front a few times but was able to pick up the bike easily compared to the bigger bikes. I lost my 05 6rr when the front tucked I tried to pick up the bike with the knee planted but I still ended up with a low side. My point is that the 600s, 750s, 1000s can be VERY bad news for the new rider cuz of the power and the weight. smaller bikes are more "tossable".

just my 2 cents......

[Yody]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.


I hate to do this to you, as I thought there might be some hope for you, but after reading this magnifcent gem, I hereby crown you "sir-squid-a-lot" you may rise and show your tentacles

[TwinTurboSL]

When they talk about 600CC bikes does this usually account to the newer bikes? I've just started learing on a 91 Ninja 600R and honestly it's a pretty damn good bike I think for starters. It's got just enough oomph to scare ya but that's only if ya peg it. Outside of that, it's pretty tame, slow, stable bike.

[gixxerboy55]

Yea the older 600s are a little better, but a standard bike with the standard riding position is easier to learn on.

[Bronto]

Recall starting out on a Yamaha 175 that could go all of 55 mph. Recently chasing a 250 down a freeway at 90 mph. 250 is too powerful for beginners :laughing

[KaWySiCkHuNdReD]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Haha, well I would follow your advice, but I already invested in three books. Sport Riding Techniques, Smooth Riding the Pridmore Way, and Total Control. I think three is enough for now considering I've only been riding for a month.

:wow the plot thickens

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=188414&pagenumber=4

riding for a month wow!!! im dumbfounded and speechless.

[KaWySiCkHuNdReD]

someone lock the thread pls as this may.. ahem will get out of hand soon

[puti]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Give me a break! I learned to operate motorcycles on a 125 at the MSF range two weeks before getting my license and hopping on the 750. I practiced in the parking lots and rode around town for a few days, and now I can safely commute wherever I feel like going. Everyone is different, and some people adapt to certain things easier than others. Like I said... I had zero motorcycle riding experience before taking the MSF course, and I am quite comfortable riding the 750 wherever I want to go. Attitude is almost as important as skill, and having a good attitude can protect you when your skill is lacking provided that you ride within your limits.

What your saying isnt that bad, whats bad is that your saying it.

[RhythmRider]

Originally posted by Linty

A good attitude will make you feel good and perhaps keep you in check, but experience and skills will save your ass when that attitude isn't enough.

I can definitely appreciate your point of view. I may come off as callous, but it's hard to give my whole state of mind on something without writing a book. Having a good attitude gives a new rider room to pick up experience. A new rider with the wrong attitude will most likely crash. A new rider with a good attitude can pick things up day to day and eventually become an experienced rider with a good attitude. That's the way I see it, anyway...

[shiryu]

Is this to say in 2016, we'll be recommending that older and more primitive 2006 R6 to newbies seeking for 600cc action?

[Grunz]

Originally posted by shiryu
Is this to say in 2016, we'll be recommending that older and more primitive 2006 R6 to newbies seeking for 600cc action?

2016 - heck prolly by 2010. :)

The 02 F4i is my first bike when I started riding this September and I think it was Honda's premier Supersport till 2003 and the 600rr. Didnt Nicky Hayden win AMA Supersport on F4is?

:laughing

Anyhow since I'm one of those noobs on a 600 as first bike maybe I'll chime in here - before the lock.

I took MSF with no experience and after passing I borrowed a friends Ninja 250 for an hour of two of additinal prcatice in a huge empty parking lot to experince higher speeds (a whopping 55mph!!!) and practice other basic skills. I was in the market for a Ninja 250 or 500 but I also got reccomendations that an F4i wouldnt be a bad choice either.

I saw a used F4i on craigslist, rode it and i found it very smooth and confidence inspiring since the power isnt very strong below 8K RPM and the brakes, handling, and ergonomics were so much better than the Ninja 250.

From September to the first week of December I've put bout 4,000 miles on it through all types of roads nad conditions nad I'm very happy with this as my first bike. In the intersts of disclosure I did have a 15mph lowside on a tight upward right turn at Lake Berrysessa but from the best I can tell that was poor technique on my part and nothing specifically attribultable to the bike's capabilities.

I've tried to be conservative nad respectuful of the bike as I learn while pushing myself just enough to grow my skills and learn new ones by riding with responsible people, reading some books, asking questions and putting it all into pactice.

Overall. I'm happy with my choice of bike and my experiences with it and I now ride more than I drive.

[gixxerboy55]

gsx750rider the only thing that saved you was your dirt riding.Best advice do some track days and get some exsperience, and ride more and post less

[Dar25]

Excellent post, props to the original poster for finding this.
Sure being cautious and level headed willl hopefully keep ur mistakes smaller but they will still happen, particularily the first year as a rider.
I think vast majority of riders end up dumping or crashing their bike in their first year for one reason on the other. Starting on something small and cheap will save you money and potentially some pain and suffering as well.

[Red6Rdr]

bump

[Eisernkreuz]

Originally posted by Abunai
the style of ex250 and ex500 are old. If only they look like a sportbike (some may say different but hey majority rules), maybe people will actually see them as something they want than just an obligation. If i got a choice I don't wanna a bike that I don't even appreciate and the only kind of bike they have the looks/ and can be appreciataeble/abused seems to be 600+.

Oh you mean like the GS500F. Slap a full fairing on a turd and it's still a turd. I don't know who made the rule that only plasticky bikes are hot, I see plenty of attractive naked and semi-naked bikes out there.

This is a good thread to have around with the start of the posing season ahead of us

[chrono-X]

i've never met someone who regretted starting on a smaller bike.

[Cali]

A 600? Thats a chumps bike. Get a 1000.

I agree that modern 600s are way too fast for newbies. A mid 90s would be a better choice, or better yet a 500 or even 250. It's just too bad they're so damn ugly.

I started on a 2000 ZX-6R (back in 2000) with about 2 hours of riding experience total. Too much bike for me. Should have crashed numerous times. No experience. Wasn't even the power, it was just turning and knowing what to do. I lacked all of that. Somehow I managed to stay crash free the 5 years I rode while putting over 70k miles on the two bikes I had. Had a few close calls early on, just glad I didn't go down.

[Dmk510f4i]

Originally posted by Grunz In the intersts of disclosure I did have a 15mph lowside on a tight upward right turn at Lake Berrysessa but from the best I can tell that was poor technique on my part and nothing specifically attribultable to the bike's capabilities.
[/B]

Uhh yes thats our point....:laughing

[RhythmRider]

Who dug up this dirt? I am still steadily making progress and not crashing thank you very much. Just like leupold18, I've had a few close calls but haven't gone down. I wouldn't attribute any of those close ones to the size of my bike's engine.

[Kestrel]

Your bike is 20 years old and CCs aside isn't anywhere as nasty as a modern 600 supersport. This has fr0ng written all over it... You seriously need to reevaluate your anti-authoritive macho attitude because it is going to get you killed. Yea - you've had a few close calls.

Guess what..



All it takes is one.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by GSXRider750
Who dug up this dirt? I am still steadily making progress and not crashing thank you very much. Just like leupold18, I've had a few close calls but haven't gone down. I wouldn't attribute any of those close ones to the size of my bike's engine.

Sorry, dude, we've chatted before, but what you think is 80% lean is bolt f'ing upright. In the interests of proving this to you, so you can understand the limits of your motorcycle and how far from them you are, I will come out with a video camera, we can go to a particular turn, your favorite midspeed turn, (say, around 25-40 mph), and then you can run through it while i tape you, and then you can do the same for me. If you're comfortable with the idea, i'll take your bike through the turn. I'm by no means an expert rider, but i can comfortably knee down in most corners, I've got some tracktime under my belt, and i've done my reading...I'm starting to learn how little i know :laughing I'd say we could do it this weekend, but i'm going to the track. The weekend after next? Perhaps at the doc wong clinic?

Seriously, every beginner rider thinks that they're leaning the holy crap out of their motorcycle, when in reality, you're upright on the bike, ass 1/4th of an inch off the seat, and the bike is doing it's best to make it through the turn without you messing it up.

Trust me, the camera doesn't lie, and it will be an eye opening experience. You're not coming close to 80% lean until the pegs are dragging...but that last 20% comes up real fast...:laughing

[bowieshum]

i think we should make this a sticky, so ne1 can look it up when they want to see which is the best first bike....

[budman]

Being of an old nature and life time rider.. I have to agree with the original post as a good insight for most new riders..

You can never say all.. really... so if you started on a 600 or 750 or a 1k.. does not mean your wrong. More at risk would be probably right ... a larger bike can be fine in the hands of a mature right wrist.. it is just so easy to twist it too far... or grab a handfull of the very powerful brakes.. or.... etc etc..

Learning skill on an inadequate bike is still learning.. and the inadequate part is up to interpretation.

:smoking

[bpw]

gsxr750, It should be mentioned that your 86 750 is nothing like a modern 600. I owned a gs1150 for about two years, basically your bikes big brother. It was an 1150 but the 1993 ninja 750 I bought has the same power, less weight and is making me feel like a begginer all over again because it is so capable. A new 600 would be even lighter with more horsepower. I doubt your 86 is breaking 100 hp at the wheel (1150 was 115) and must be over the 500 lb mark. The old bikes also tend to be physically larger and longer which means they are really hard to wheely and less sensitive to rider input. The biggest difference I found between my 1150 and the (relativly) modern ninja is the ninja demands a lot more focus. I could cruise around on the 1150 watching the scenery etc but the precision of the ninja doesnt let me relax nearly as much. It is far more capable but also less forgiving.

edit: should also say I wish I still had my 1972 cb350 for running around town and plan on getting small bike again at some point cause its fun riding bikes you can throw around (wish we could buy all those 250 sportbikes they have overseas). The only reason I have the 750 instead of something smaller is because it is a commuter (no car) and I like having some low end power and not needing to wind it out on the highway. For sport riding I really think I would have more fun on something little.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by budman
a larger bike can be fine in the hands of a mature right wrist.. it is just so easy to twist it too far... or grab a handfull of the very powerful brakes.. or.... etc etc..

I think that the biggest issue is that many novice riders are not very smooth or controlled on their inputs...and when a slightly more forceful throttle opening, perhaps beacuse you hit a pothole as you rolled on, can send the front wheel rocketing skyward, that's probably not the best solution to put a new rider in.

Inexperience can be killer, especially when a bike can take you out of your comfort zone too quickly, by pulling up the front end, etc. etc.

[Dove]

Originally posted by Grunz
Snip -

From September to the first week of December I've put bout 4,000 miles on it through all types of roads nad conditions nad I'm very happy with this as my first bike. In the intersts of disclosure I did have a 15mph lowside on a tight upward right turn at Lake Berrysessa but from the best I can tell that was poor technique on my part and nothing specifically attribultable to the bike's capabilities.




Let's not forget that there was a bit of gravel in that corner - with a little more seat time you'll see that gravel sooner next time and it'll be a non-issue.

:2cents

[VTRZA]

Re: Re: Almost ate the side of a hill!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GSXRider750
Lessons learned? Don't ride fast on an unlit road at night
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by seanrock
You had to learn that??????


:laughing:laughing:laughing
:laughing

[SpeedyCorky]

i started on a 1984 duel sport (street legal dirt bike, knobby tyres and all) Kawasaki 250cc 4stroke. spent a good 8 months on it, put over 5000 miles on it. sold it for what i bought it for ($1000).

best $0 i ever spent.


and even after 8 months on that thing, in hindsite now 4 years and 30000 miles later, i cant say with 100% confidence that i was truely ready to upgrade to the 1998 zx6R that i upgraded to.

as said my Rossi himself: "the less HP a bike has, the more it can teach you."

I've been on a lot of group rides, and the majority of the time, the guys who started on 600s simply are not very good at general bike control. Some are faster than others, but it seems that few actually know how to ride well. most simply define the whole "park it in the corners, and bury the throttle on the straights" type of shit

[Z3n]

Not that this is going to convince anyone, but you'll notice that every older rider is saying "get a dualsport, train on the dirt, start on a smaller bike" or some varient of that, whereas the new riders on their 600's are saying that they're fine, they're not wadding their bikes up at all...yet most of them have lowsided at least once. :lol

I had my first bad accident on my 600, in a situation that my 250 could have never gotten me into...:laughing (significantly stepping out the rear on the gas, on cold tires, as it hit the powerband while leaned over. (How many mistakes can you count in that sentence? :laughing))

(extra parathesies)

[SpeedyCorky]

^^^^^^^^^^


tru dat.


anyone who says most 600cc starting riders turn out OK........well, just call up any insurance company and as for a quote for full coverage on a 600cc sportbike, then get a quote for a duel sport 250cc.....


Even myself being 26 (almsost 27 now, damn thats sad, i'm old), with 6 years riding experence and damn near 40000 miles on my belt, i got quoted $10,000 for full coverage on the 2004 zx10R i used to own. the bike was worth maybe $6500, so basically they are betting i was gonna wad it in less than 6 months..... for my NSR50, i was quoted $800 for full coverage.... i ended up buying minimal insurance coverage for both bikes, i paid $1200/yr for the zx10r for that coverage.... and now i pay $110 a year for the same coverage on my NSR50.
yes, no typo, i pay $110 a year for motorcycle insurance!!! :banana

yes folks, 1/10 the cost. i'm not saying that the risk is 1/10...... its prolly more like 1/1000 :laughing

[MotoSW]

lol yea i hear you there, i dunno im a bigger guy i talked to MANY people a 250 wouldnt carry me over 70:P ok it would but it would be screaming to do so, i talked to many people who i know who ride, and as far as what ive gotten told yea supersports are dangerous for beginners, i admit that but take the risk and i may be stupid for doin so think what people will i wouldnt enjoy a cruiser or standard(have ridden on both) 600 for my height is what it is from what ive seen and no goin back now:P

As for insurance i get full coverage from my insurance for 504$ every 6 months and im only 22 so not sure what you did or what i did but :laughing maybe they <3 me

[SpeedyCorky]

well i cant say my 105mph speeding ticket helps my insurance rates very much :laughing

[MotoSW]

lol thatll do it for ya:) lol loyalty discounts are <3 lol also state farm ftw they do it by displacement not bike style:P

[Cali]

Perfect example of a newb's mistake:
Up on Skyline, about 2 weeks experience total. Going around a right hand turn, get worried cause I think I'm going too fast when I'm actually going amazingly slow by my standards today. Get scared, grab some front brake. Bike starts to stand up, get even more worried. Ford Explorer is coming around the turn, makes matters even worse. So now I'm scared, think I'm going too fast, and don't have the experience to just lean the damn thing over. Instead I'm on and off the front brake trying to slow down, which is screwing me up even more, and luckily I didn't go head on into the Explorer 2 weeks after getting the bike.

New supersports are too much bike for newbies because you already have too much to deal with. It's not like riding a bicycle. Throw in all that power and you're just compounding the issues and setting yourself up for disaster.

When I say I had some early close calls, some were minor, but others like this almost ended my life. Start small, work your way up. You are going to drop your bike in your driveway, parking lot, or where ever else. You're probably going to crash it early on. Why not do it to a cheaper, older bike first. Learn to turn, learn the basics, then learn to use the power.

[gixxerboy55]

Some good post here, For new rider's who think it is ok to start on a 140 mph. sportbike, maybe some will be ok, but a lot of new rider's are dropping them, it's not easy riding a bike with little clipons even for experienced riders, why do you think our insurance rates are so high in some cases 2000 bucks a year. You don't need to be a genius to know somethings out of whack, something to think about when somebody promotes a 600 cc 140mph sportbike.

[Cali]

140? The 600s will do about 160.

[gixxerboy55]

I was mainly refering to the f4i geez what a nit picker.

[Cali]

Nit picking? There is a pretty big difference between 140 and 160.

[ucb]

Nit picking? There is a pretty big difference between 140 and 160.

is there? hit anything solid at either speed and you are road kill

[CBRMike83]

I would say if your dumb enough to get a 600 or more CC bike for your first bike your going to become a Squid!! I mean even my 600 isn't really fast but crap if you look at it in terms of speed its one hell of a fast ride. Most dont understand how peppy a R6 or a RR really is for a NEW rider. The cool factor for a Newbie is great but it gives them the want to show off!! Learn to ride first then get a R6 R1 RR or what ever:thumbup:thumbup

[Ramsay]

I agree with most here but i learned on a 600, an OLD SLOW 600 (CBR F1), and i did fine. Yep i dropped it while parking a couple times cause the damn thing was heavy, but all in all I got a really good feel for the basics on it, and even enjoyed riding it a lot nearly 20k miles later. It was also a great, reasonably simple bike to learn to wrench on. That said I am a very mild mannered, clear thinking individual, and for those that i dont think are i say stay away from a 600. A buddy of mine (with similar personality traits, and no death wish) wanted to get into biking so I got him to take the MSF and then told him he would probably be quite happy with an 80's CBR for a while. So far he loves it, cant get enuff. He even mentioned that he was getting bored of the power, to which i replied "I highly doubt your cornering and braking abilities can outpace that bike yet, work on those before you worry about the power." Something i tell most every new rider i see. Me? Im still sortof a noob myself if you ask me, and I am 5 years, 6 bikes and over 150k on bikes. Even I still have a lot to learn.

[Hellfish_Monkey]

Karbon,

Thanks for posting that... I had a hard time reading with all the fzcked up characters in the copy & paste job... so I did some search & replaces on the document and here's the updated version for anyone who's crazy enough to have read all the way to page 1,000 of this thread. :laughing

One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:
1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.
I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)

[Karbon]

Thanks man!

i'll repost it in the 1st post!

[Kornholio]

I did managed to buy and sell da 250 at the same price i got it for.

Me too.

Seriously though, I hate it when people insist that "you're going to drop it" when you're new. News flash: not every rider drops their bike when they're a new rider. I'm not one to say that I am a professional rider after a few months, but the old adages that "you're gonna drop it when you're new" or "you're going to crash because you're new" are getting old. Not everyone exceeds their ability before they're ready. :rolleyes


And yes...I started on a 250.

[Squidly McSmearstain]

The probabilities are high that a new rider will drop the bike. That's not a guarantee that a bike will be dropped, but the likelihood is high. Because there's a high probability that the new rider will drop the bike in some form or fashion, it's a good idea to get something that''s already got a little rash on it.

When i was a noob, I parked my bike on the side stand on a VERY hot day in an asphalt parking lot. I came out of the store twenty minutes later to find my bike on its side. I didn't drop the bike myself, but my noobliness caused the fall.

Someone told my my SV650 would have oil pressure problems if I let it idle on the side stand. The tilt of the motorcycle would cause the cylinders to lack oil. Being a complete idiot and total noob, I believed them. I used to let the bike warm up in the mornings by placing the side stand on a couple of 2x4s to keep the bike vertical. You guessed it, one morning the bike fell over. I didn't drop the bike, but my noobliness caused the fall.

There are a LOT of ways for a bike to go down due to inexperience.

[Kornholio]

The probabilities are high that a new rider will drop the bike. That's not a guarantee that a bike will be dropped, but the likelihood is high. Because there's a high probability that the new rider will drop the bike in some form or fashion, it's a good idea to get something that''s already got a little rash on it.

When i was a noob, I parked my bike on the side stand on a VERY hot day in an asphalt parking lot. I came out of the store twenty minutes later to find my bike on its side. I didn't drop the bike myself, but my noobliness caused the fall.

Someone told my my SV650 would have oil pressure problems if I let it idle on the side stand. The tilt of the motorcycle would cause the cylinders to lack oil. Being a complete idiot and total noob, I believed them. I used to let the bike warm up in the mornings by placing the side stand on a couple of 2x4s to keep the bike vertical. You guessed it, one morning the bike fell over. I didn't drop the bike, but my noobliness caused the fall.

There are a LOT of ways for a bike to go down due to inexperience.


Granted, but filling the head of someone who is new to motorcycling with the "You're going to drop the bike. Everyone does" mantra is counterproductive to them feeling comfortable with riding. :thumbdown

[flying_hun]

Granted, but filling the head of someone who is new to motorcycling with the "You're going to drop the bike. Everyone does" mantra is counterproductive to them feeling comfortable with riding. :thumbdown

We should let it be a surprise then?

[Kornholio]

We should let it be a surprise then?

Telling someone you will and telling them you might are very different and one is more productive than the other. Being positive reinforces training measures and makes the new rider more confident instead of hellbent on wondering when the day is going to come that they're going to "make the typical newbie mistake and drop the bike".

[flying_hun]

Telling someone you will and telling them you might are very different and one is more productive than the other. Being positive reinforces training measures and makes the new rider more confident instead of hellbent on wondering when the day is going to come that they're going to "make the typical newbie mistake and drop the bike".

I see your point, however much of this came up in the context of those "hi-I'm-a-n00b-should-I-get-an-r1?" threads. In that case I don't really care if I damage the fragile self-esteem of a new rider who is looking for enablers to justify a bad choice. It's the lesser of two evils. If they are looking at a supersport for a first bike, their main problem is not a lack of confidence.

I don't have the facts readily at hand (calling DataDan), but my guess is that a substantial majority of new riders find their bike in a non-vertical orientation sometime during the first year of ownership. There are big differences in the implications of dropping a 250 Rebel and dropping a Desmosedici (calling Moike). An extreme comparison, but it illustrates the point.

[Kornholio]

I see your point, however much of this came up in the context of those "hi-I'm-a-n00b-should-I-get-an-r1?" threads. In that case I don't really care if I damage the fragile self-esteem of a new rider who is looking for enablers to justify a bad choice. It's the lesser of two evils. If they are looking at a supersport for a first bike, their main problem is not a lack of confidence.

I don't have the facts readily at hand (calling DataDan), but my guess is that a substantial majority of new riders find their bike in a non-vertical orientation sometime during the first year of ownership. There are big differences in the implications of dropping a 250 Rebel and dropping a Desmosedici (calling Moike). An extreme comparison, but it illustrates the point.

Given the R1 threads, then yes, I understand your point. :D

[misterinnocent]

I agree that new riders need tame bikes. My bike is a 650, but it's pretty tame. If I had had my heart set on a sports bike, it would have been Ninja 250 all the way. FWIW, I've found the KLR to be pretty forgiving and decently torquey or unsurprising when I get it in the wrong gear. I respect it but I'm not afraid of it. A friend who has been riding for 30 years rode it home for me and told me it's a great beginner's bike, which agreed with everything I read before I bought it.

In short, when you speak of displacement, you really are using a metric for bike tameness. But displacement doesn't define a bike, and my 650 would prolly fit your criteria for a sane starter bike.

[SuitePhoto]

The probabilities are high that a new rider will drop the bike. That's not a guarantee that a bike will be dropped, but the likelihood is high. Because there's a high probability that the new rider will drop the bike in some form or fashion, it's a good idea to get something that''s already got a little rash on it.

When i was a noob, I parked my bike on the side stand on a VERY hot day in an asphalt parking lot. I came out of the store twenty minutes later to find my bike on its side. I didn't drop the bike myself, but my noobliness caused the fall.

Someone told my my SV650 would have oil pressure problems if I let it idle on the side stand. The tilt of the motorcycle would cause the cylinders to lack oil. Being a complete idiot and total noob, I believed them. I used to let the bike warm up in the mornings by placing the side stand on a couple of 2x4s to keep the bike vertical. You guessed it, one morning the bike fell over. I didn't drop the bike, but my noobliness caused the fall.

There are a LOT of ways for a bike to go down due to inexperience.

+1! I had my DRZ for a total of 10 days before I improperly set it on the kickstand while waiting for it to warm-up (front-end pointed downhill in my driveway, with the bars not at full lock...), I turned to grab my helmet, and bam! It was on it's side - still running. Thankfully it's basically a dirt bike, and the damage was less than $100 to repair, but I quickly learned that 'dropping your bike' doesn't always happen while riding it.

I was so thankful that I didn't have a supersport - the cost of repair would have been 10x! I think another piece of good advice that was given to me by a very experienced friend was naked bikes are best for noobs. That is why the SV650 was one of the models that he recommend I look at - standard riding position and A LOT cheaper to repair when crashed/dropped.

[QuaiChangKane]

Mods - can this also be stickied at the top of the training forum? I think that more green riders would find it there....


-Q!

[Kornholio]

+1! I had my DRZ for a total of 10 days before I improperly set it on the kickstand while waiting for it to warm-up (front-end pointed downhill in my driveway, with the bars not at full lock...), I turned to grab my helmet, and bam! It was on it's side - still running. Thankfully it's basically a dirt bike, and the damage was less than $100 to repair, but I quickly learned that 'dropping your bike' doesn't always happen while riding it.

I was so thankful that I didn't have a supersport - the cost of repair would have been 10x! I think another piece of good advice that was given to me by a very experienced friend was naked bikes are best for noobs. That is why the SV650 was one of the models that he recommend I look at - standard riding position and A LOT cheaper to repair when crashed/dropped.


I don't know, I guess I've still got the MSF stuck in my head. I never start the bike until I'm sitting on it. :|

[SuitePhoto]

I don't know, I guess I've still got the MSF stuck in my head. I never start the bike until I'm sitting on it. :|
The bike runs better if I let it warm-up for 3 or 4 minutes before I start riding - which is exactly how much time it takes me to put my jacket/backpack/helmet/gloves on... I still do it - I'm just much more careful with how I park the bike. Less learned. :ride

[Kornholio]

The bike runs better if I let it warm-up for 3 or 4 minutes before I start riding - which is exactly how much time it takes me to put my jacket/backpack/helmet/gloves on... I still do it - I'm just much more careful with how I park the bike. Less learned. :ride

I don't ride off until the bike stops fast idling. Usually about 2-3 minutes. So it's not like I'm sitting there forever. :D

[heyguys]

I'll speak of my experience: at Age 14 my dad bought us a dual-sport yz250 I believe. I learned to ride it ... on the street. I road it around the neighborhood because it was easier than riding in the dirt when I was first starting. Within the first mile I dropped it and broke the clutch lever. Then I bent the brake lever. I crashed several times in the dirt of course too, but thats the dirt...

Age 22 I decide I finally am getting a bike. I want a nice 600 though, a new 2006 600rr. I figure since I rode a 250 at age 14 thats kinda like a bigger street bike. Well, I was right and it kicked ass! I managed to drop it once in the driveway before i got my frame sliders on it but minor blemishes and scratches on the side. Sure, I dropped it once again doing a u-turn on a hill even after I put the sliders on, but the sliders took most of the scratches. Oh, then I crashed it on a left turn through an intersection, no biggie just roughed up my leathers replaced my rear spools, touched up my tail (pretty poorly). Some more scratches but no big deal.

So now I got a 2 year old 600rr and with some scratches on mirrors, tank cover, front fairing, tail, stator cover, frame sliders, turn signals. I probably could have saved some money on used one but to me bikes were meant to be scratched up. But if it's your first street-bike you are bound to drop it, especially if you are on tiptoes like me haha.

[08BLADERUNNER]

IMHO
I would say if you have ridden a motorcycle (dirtbike) or more importantly owned one before then I think it's safe to buy a larger bike out of the gate for street riding. My first bike was and is a liter bike. I love it and I don't often tend to ride beyond my skills or rather writing checks my skills or ass can't cash....

Since I rode dirt for almost 18 years before going the street route I figured I was wise enough (with motorcycles in general) to buy a bike that offered me room to grow. I don't regret at all buying a liter bike for my first street bike. I have had many crashes and injuries on the dirt and learned many lessons. Although street riding is a very different sport it still requires the same basic motor skills as ridng on the dirt. It did take me awhile to get down the different angle used on modern sports bikes (leaned forward over front wheel) vs the dirt bike style of sitting up and using your feet for balance but all in all I feel it was a fairly straight fwd and simple concept to learn.

Although I must agree if you have NO MOTORCYCLE RIDING experience dirt or otherwise you should most certainly start out small.... my first dirt bike was a 1990 XR100 followed by a 1986 XR250R then a 1991 DR 350, then a 1992 CR250r and most recently a 2004 CRF450R.

My brother in law how ever has no motorcycle experience and crashed Easter Sunday while riding a CRF 50 on private roads in his easter clothes (white pants and a really gay striped pastel colored shirt) he did have a helmet and gloves on but he broke the visor on the helmet and ripped the gloves along with his palms.

My point is you can crash on anything... and as for the street you can die just as easily on a Ninja 250 as you can on a liter bike if you don't know what you're doing

quick story
just the other day while at the motorcycle shop for MORE parts I witnessed a short 5'2" or so Mexican kid buying a brand new R1, I complemented him on how nice his new bike was he said thanks and rode off... 5 minutes later and with not even 1 mile on his bike he returned with a scratched up right side fairing and engine case cover and a broken foot peg... what happened you ask? well I too asked... turns out he had never ridden a bike before and he actually BLAMED it on the dealer for not showing him how to ride his new bike... he got an 1/8th of a mile down the road and wanted to U turn however he stopped on the high part of the crown in road right in middle of all the oil spots and he couldnt reach the ground so he fell right over HAHAHAHA what a fool cost him $450 in parts on his brand new bike... I won't even get into how he was wearing no gear other than a helmet NOT EVEN GLOVES... apparently he wanted a new R1 to impress the vato's of ESSJ where he lives lol