question for leo on ticket

[crazyrussian]

Dearest resident LEOs!

I got pulled over a little while ago when the LEO (moto) clocked a car that just passed me and went ahead of me in my lane, and then as he pulled out he noticed I was behind it and pulled me over as well. He said I was going the same speed as the car (not really, I was going slower, but the car did a hard break when it saw the LEO, so from the perspective of the officer I suppose that's what it looked like) and gave me a ticket, indicating that he radar'd me going that speed. Now I know there was no way that the radar actually hit me, since it was right after a curve in the road, so my question is this- can an officer write a radar ticket if he simply thinks that you were going the same speed as another car he tagged?

Thanks in advance!

[motorman4life]

Please read the TICKET HELP REQUIREMENTS THREAD (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136742) if you would like assistance. :barf

[Bronto]

In a similar situation, A vehicle ahead going faster. They were ahead hundreds of feet. Then given a speed we didn't attain anywhere on the route was a nice bonus.
A small community, we were outsiders. Locals are right, outsiders are gone. We were screwed before it even began.

Visual estimate of speed is supported by radar evidence. It's the visual estimate have to defend against.
Radar detects the strongest signal. A second display detects the fastest target speed. Like spotting a ferrari racing around a Semi Truck. The radar shows the truck's speed and the ferrari's speed.
In your case, the larger target (Car) was both fastest and strongest signal. Radar displays showing same speeds for the car. Not even registering the slower MC. This can be a question. If both displays were the same. Some proof that speeds between cars are different more then the same. Especially after a corner.
Visaul estimation by none experts carry same weight as LEO's expert speed estimation skills. So your estimate of speed by senses is good. Bonus if you had checked the speedometer.
Extraneous evidence like riding habits through the same road is still useful.
Making notes of the traffic stop. As soon as you can is evidence you can use. Notes made days later isn't.

[crazyrussian]

Sorry!

Ok, so the citation was for СVС 22350, basic speed. It was in Santa Cruz, on Bay St. The officer pulled out to ticket the SUV in front of me, saw me behind it, and told me to pull over as well. At the point of the stop he told me that I was right on the tail of the other vehicle, and that he clocked the other vehicle going 48. I was kind of at a loss for words, and didn't say much at the time of the stop. Does that help? it was daylight, medium traffic, clean road, etc., speed limit of 30, recent traffic survey said 85% is 39

thanks again!

[motorman4life]

So (and I hate to have to ask), were you cited for 48 mph?

What reason does the survey list for why the limit is so far below the 85th percentile? Unprotected pedestrian crossings?

How fast do you think you were going at the time? How fast do you think the other vehicle was going?

[crazyrussian]

Originally posted by motorman4life
So (and I hate to have to ask), were you cited for 48 mph?



What reason does the survey list for why the limit is so far below the 85th percentile? Unprotected pedestrian crossings?


How fast do you think you were going at the time? How fast do you think the other vehicle was going?

Sorry, yes, I was cited for 48, as well as the other person


I wasn't able to get a hold of the survey itself, just found the minutes of the city council meeting where the results were summarized, so unfortunately I can't answer that question, but there are no unprotected pedestrian crossings and the road has a wooded median between the lanes of traffic so running across would be difficult

I was going with the speed of traffic, 35-40, and this guy was definitely going faster than me because he passed me on the right than got in front of me in the left lane, so I'll believe that he (she?) was going about 48

thanks again!

[SoarAndEnvision]

Hey was it Officer Cabriales ???

I took him to court in Santa Cruz and made an ASS out of him it was great.

[crazyrussian]

don't know, his name is difficult to read on the ticket

[SoarAndEnvision]

Originally posted by crazyrussian
don't know, his name is difficult to read on the ticket

That sounds like him ...unless its grandpa with the mustasche. Man UC cops were dicks --- I got a ticket doing 50 up bay. Dude bay is SOOOo stupid... its only like a 90 degree incline or whatever, and they are like "go 20."

I think when I went to court the 85th percentile was closer to 42-44 or something.

There's another kind of tech. tactic - you can request to see his notes before trial. They have to give it to you in a specific time window. If they don't, you can say you didn't get a fair trial and move to dismiss.

Nolo press has a good book on this in the Law section at Barnes/Borders that has forms and stuff. Depends on how deep you want to get into it, but its kind of related to my career so it's fun for me and points suck.

And yes, "Does that help? it was daylight, medium traffic, clean road, etc.," -- That helps.
-> Unsafe speed can mean anything - being a bike around cars going fast can be "unsafe" if you are going to slow.

If you do go to court ask him what the weather was like.
Ask him if there were any pedestrians, and if he says yes, to describe them.
Same for bicyclists.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by crazyrussian
I wasn't able to get a hold of the survey itself, just found the minutes of the city council meeting where the results were summarized, so unfortunately I can't answer that question, but there are no unprotected pedestrian crossings and the road has a wooded median between the lanes of traffic so running across would be difficult

I was going with the speed of traffic, 35-40, and this guy was definitely going faster than me because he passed me on the right than got in front of me in the left lane, so I'll believe that he (she?) was going about 48
Get a copy of "fight your ticket" from Nolo Press. Go to court and plead not guilty, have the prepared form from the back of the book to subpoena the following:
The officer's notes, including, but not limited to the back of his copy of the ticket. A copy of the speed survey for the location of the citation, a copy of the operator's manual and any recent maintenance records or calibration/certification for the radar or LIDAR (and/or any other devices) used in determining speed for this citation and any evidence or certificates the officer has pertaining to the satisfactory completion of a POST certified Radar (or LIDAR) Operator's course and any training or certification pertaining to his ability to visually estimate speed as well as any certified or credentialed training that officer has received specific to the make and model radar or LIDAR device he was operating.

Turn that in while you are at court for your arraignment (first court appearance). Do not waive time. Do not agree to any court date that is more than 45 days from the date of your arraignment.

If you submit the request for discovery outlined above and it is not complied with, go to court and make a motion to dismiss based upon failure to comply with discovery and the subpoena to produce some or all of the items.

If you get most of it, ask the officer (on the record, after his initial testimony) where the remaining items are.

Follow the Nolo Press book.

[crazyrussian]

thanks motorman! so I take it you think this is fightable :cool

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by crazyrussian
thanks motorman! so I take it you think this is fightable :cool
If you don't feel the ticket was a true and correct account of what transpired, then you have every right to fight the ticket.

Any ticket is fightable. It is just a matter or whether it is worth it to invenst the time and energy required in order to seek justice or whether the ticket was justly issued in the first place.

I don't issue tickets that I'm not 100% sure of. If in doubt, I will give a warning. I get paid the same either way. People may feel I am chickenshit at times, as I will write people for 3 or 4 violations on one stop, but they are all true violations that I know occurred, for a fact. It also does not matter to me whether the person KNEW it was against the law. If it is a general intent violation or crime, then their intent is not at question or debate. An example is someone who honestly did not look for or see clearly and lawfully posted signs (no right turn on red, etc..), towing a trailer without a safety chain or carrying an uncovered load of debris.

My position is, people make choices and they need to take responsibility for their choices. If me stopping you and getting your autograph for a violation is ALL that you get for something that COULD result in a collision or injury to another person, well, consider yourself lucky. I'm not out there to do remedial driving school or play Miss Manners on 2-wheels.

If the vehicle passed you going 45-50 (it passed you, so you were going slower than it) and you say you had not exceeded the 85th percentile speed, then I'd say you have a winnable ticket.

[Bronto]

Your innocent then for sure contest it.
If you did what you did for your own safety or safety of others. Then explain in court.

Know of an instance for speeding to catch up to a car ahead. To lead the way through a series of busy intersections. A safety move so no one pulls out in front of you. A ticket for speeding for that catch up stretch.
Heh chat with LEO about accidents, they mention how a couple on a Harley were killed T-Boning a SUV.

[crazyrussian]

update- the ticket was finally thrown out in court.

quick summary- I was able to show that the speed limit on Bay st is set illegally, since it does not confirm to the traffic survey, and that the police officer did not ticket me based on sufficient evidence. Lesson- if you think it was unfair, take your time, research the issue, and fight it. All I needed was to get the copy of the MUTCD and the СМС and the traffic survey. So thank you to all of you that said I should fight it. And thank you motorman!

It also helped that the officer was extremely rude in court, so much so that the Judge had to reprimand him

[motorman4life]

:applause Good on you.
Another satisfied customer. :thumbup

[silversvs]

Originally posted by crazyrussian
update- the ticket was finally thrown out in court.

quick summary- I was able to show that the speed limit on Bay st is set illegally, since it does not confirm to the traffic survey, and that the police officer did not ticket me based on sufficient evidence. Lesson- if you think it was unfair, take your time, research the issue, and fight it. All I needed was to get the copy of the MUTCD and the СМС and the traffic survey. So thank you to all of you that said I should fight it. And thank you motorman!

It also helped that the officer was extremely rude in court, so much so that the Judge had to reprimand him

Just out of curiosity why was the speed limit illegal?

Were the surveys out of date?
Was the critical significantly higher than the posted limit?

And what was the insufficient evidence?

Did the officer not have the 24 hour required training?

[Steve Stansb]

Congrats on the WIN!! The reprimand on the cop in court will follow him to work and may get him a talk from his Sarg on how to act in court!


Originally posted by crazyrussian
update- the ticket was finally thrown out in court.

quick summary- I was able to show that the speed limit on Bay st is set illegally, since it does not confirm to the traffic survey, and that the police officer did not ticket me based on sufficient evidence. Lesson- if you think it was unfair, take your time, research the issue, and fight it. All I needed was to get the copy of the MUTCD and the СМС and the traffic survey. So thank you to all of you that said I should fight it. And thank you motorman!

It also helped that the officer was extremely rude in court, so much so that the Judge had to reprimand him

[jb]

Originally posted by motorman4life
:applause Good on you.
Another satisfied customer. :thumbup

Color me impressed, MM4L.

I want to buy you a drink sometime. Seriously. The info on how to fight a ticket was amazing.

[crazyrussian]

sorry for the delay:-) the surveys said the critical speed was 39, posted speed limit 30. There were no unapparent hazards, and I used the MUTCD to explain the rules of setting the speed to the Judge. I also explained to the judge that the officer was lacking sufficient evidence because he stated that he BOTH saw me the whole time AND that I was following directly behind a Ford Expedition... on a straight line of sight. So I argued that he could not have both seen me going a particular speed AND seen me right behind the expedition, which was the vehicle he clocked.


Originally posted by silversvs
Just out of curiosity why was the speed limit illegal?

Were the surveys out of date?
Was the critical significantly higher than the posted limit?

And what was the insufficient evidence?

Did the officer not have the 24 hour required training?

[crazyrussian]

Originally posted by Steve Stansb
Congrats on the WIN!! The reprimand on the cop in court will follow him to work and may get him a talk from his Sarg on how to act in court!

unfortunately he IS the SGT :-)