Confiscating personel property on private property?

[RightWing]

Is it legal to confiscate, lets say a skateboard, on private property from a scateboarder that you, as an employee of the property, have asked to leave numerous times over a time period of 2 hours?

Anyone want to take a stab at his?

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by RightWing
Is it legal to confiscate, lets say a skateboard, on private property from a scateboarder that you, as an employee of the property, have asked to leave numerous times over a time period of 2 hours?

Anyone want to take a stab at his?

As an employee: not unless you are making a PP arrest (and LE is on the way): It could be considered evidence...

Just taking a kid's skateboard? :hand

[Nick]

Originally posted by RightWing
Is it legal to confiscate, lets say a skateboard, on private property from a scateboarder that you, as an employee of the property, have asked to leave numerous times over a time period of 2 hours?

Anyone want to take a stab at his?

Was that you chasing those kids around Valley Fair today at around 7:00pm?

[RightWing]

The kid was told to come back with a parent to get the board back. The intention was not to keep the board as punishment but to get the parents involved.

[RightWing]

Originally posted by Nick
Was that you chasing those kids around Valley Fair today at around 7:00pm?

Nope.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by RightWing
The intention was not to keep the board as punishment but to get the parents involved.

With all due respect:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

;)

[Meter Man]

I would guess no you can't take personal property like a skateboard.

[xmasons]

IANAL

Could the owners of an establish take any thing of yours once you are on their property? I'm going to have to go with, "No." Let's say you leave your jacket and helmet with coat check at a nice eating establishment. Can they keep it because they feel justified in doing so?

[motorman4life]

In some cities, they have an ordinance that allows police officers to confiscate skateboards, but I am not aware of any law or case law in regard to security or an agent of a business confiscating a skateboard lawfully.

I would think you would have to call the cops and tell the cops you want to make a citizen's arrest for tresspassing and interfering with business (under 602.1 PC), if you have asked them to leave.

You could let the officer know that you are willing to forego the arrest if they will confiscate the skateboards and return them to the parents with an admonition that in addition to having their kids arrested, the parents could be sued in accordance with California Civil Code § 3479.

Also, keep in mind that skateboarding is legally presumed to be a dangerous activity and as long as you do not permit or encourage the activity on your premises, you cannot be held liable for their incidental injury. Prominently posting "NO SKATEBOARDING, IN-LINE SKATES OR SCOOTERS ALLOWED" signs will go a long way toward protecting your business from any lawsuit as well as assiting with arrest and prosecution, if it comes down to it.

====
A PENAL CODE SECTION 602.1 [obstructing or intimidating business operators or customers] provides that any person who intentionally interferes with any lawful business or occupation carried on by the owner or owner's agent of a business open to the public by obstructing or intimidating the business operations or customers and who refuses to leave the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor.

[dan p]

IMO, you can not take the skateboard under the circumstance you describe. I think to do so is basically petty theft (m). If the kid has been asked to leave private property and refuses to do so you could make a private person arrest for trespassing or some related part of section 602 of the CA penal code. You could also call the police and ask them to make the arrest.

Private citizens not acting as agents of the government (directed or defacto) do not have the same restrictions imposed on peace officers via the 4th ammendment in regard to search and seizure. Peace officers can only search for and seize property with 1. a search warrant, 2. pursuant to a lawful arrest (aka arrest search), 3. vehicle tow inventory or with 4. consent. Of course they can also seize contraband they see in plainview. If the kid was tagging your building or breaking your window you could grab whatever instrument he was using to commit that crime. However, the kid's skateboard is his personal property, not contraband or evidence of a crime, and to take it and hold it hostage pending the arrival of the parents would be no different than taking his wallet, cell phone or some other item of value for the same reason. Again, I think if you do that, you have violated 488 of the penal code (petty theft), good intentions or not.

I would bet that most cops would not accept any kind of "deal" where you ask them to take custody of the misappropriated skateboard and return it to the parents in lieu of making an arrest. I'll bet most police departments have policy in regard to dealing with juveniles (you wrote 'kid' so I am assuming under 18) and after coming into contact with a juvenile in that situation an officer would be required to contact his parents.

Good rule of thumb with this kind of stuff is if you have to ask yourself if you can do it, you probably shouldn't. Calll the police and let them handle the situation.

Maybe twenty years ago your well intentioned move would have had the desired result where the parents show up, the kids get a good talking to and your problem is over. Now, the parents will show up with the cops and demand you be arrested for stealing their kid's skateboard. Not passing judgement, just offering an opinion.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by dan p
IMO, you can not take the skateboard under the circumstance you describe. I think to do so is basically petty theft (m). . . Not passing judgement, just offering an opinion.
It would not be petty theft. It would be considered a robbery (if there was any force or any threat of force involved or perceived) or grand theft as it is "from the person." Petty theft value, felony grand theft or felony robbery act.

[saizai]

Originally posted by motorman4life
It would not be petty theft. It would be considered a robbery (if there was any force or any threat of force involved or perceived) or grand theft as it is "from the person." Petty theft value, felony grand theft or felony robbery act.

Is this true of K-12 school and/or college confiscations also?

IIRC K-12 (<18 yo) = in loco parentis = do damn near whatever they want.

But I've seen profs confiscate stuff in a college setting, which is definitely not ILP and probably counts as robbery...

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by saizai
Is this true of K-12 school and/or college confiscations also?

IIRC K-12 (<18 yo) = in loco parentis = do damn near whatever they want.

But I've seen profs confiscate stuff in a college setting, which is definitely not ILP and probably counts as robbery...
ILP? Sorry, I know what IIRC is, but ILP got by me. Maybe I'm too tired to figure it out. I know I'm too tired to look it up.

Anyhow......
On a campus, teachers are permitted to confiscate items in accordance with school policy and the Education code. Cellular phones and pagers are a good example, technically, under state law (unless the law has changed recently), they are not permitted (with a few narrow exceptions) to be carried by students on a K-8 campus, unless advance permission is granted by the principal.

Most anything that can reasonably be construed to be a danger, hazard or "distraction to learning" can be confiscated, within reason. Usually they are usually returned at the end of the day or released to a parent with an explaination. These would not be unlawful taking (an element for any theft) as they are permitted under the law or applicable school policy (even if the policies are not enforced equally).

I know many private schools (K-12 and colleges) have even stricter rules and as admission is usually accompanied with a defacto consent to allow the faculty to search and seize property. But even at public school and college campuses the faculty have a lot of leeway to search and sieze in the interest of safety. No warrant or even probable cause is needed and as long as they are not acting under the direction of the police or as an agent of the police, whatever is found can be admissable for prosecution.

As for what you are speaking of specifically, I don't know, you did not specify.

[saizai]

Originally posted by motorman4life
ILP? Sorry, I know what IIRC is, but ILP got by me. Maybe I'm too tired to figure it out. I know I'm too tired to look it up.

Sorry - I was acronyming myself from one line up for brevity. ILP = In Loco Parentis.

I know many private schools (K-12 and colleges) have even stricter rules and as admission is usually accompanied with a defacto consent to allow the faculty to search and seize property. But even at public school and college campuses the faculty have a lot of leeway to search and sieze in the interest of safety.

I went to a UC. I do not remember signing anything giving away any rights whatsoever - including to search & seize - and I'd be mighty pissed if anyone tried. IMHO that sort of right can't be waived de facto unless it's a public law - e.g. on entering an airport or courthouse, OK, but not just because some school wrote it into their school policy.

Similarly, does K-12 have that right for students >18? IIRC they only have it because they are acting in loco parentis - i.e. they can do anything parents / legal guardians can. But that terminates once they're no longer a minor...

As for what you are speaking of specifically, I don't know, you did not specify.

I have seen, for example, a teacher at a community college confiscate a student's cellphone; throw one across the room; confiscate other miscellaneous items; etc. And have seen HS teachers confiscate entire backpacks.

Generally it's in cases of the student being disruptive - but IMHO the proper response is something along the lines of "either stop being disruptive, or leave immediately".

(Of course, HS teachers probably don't get that option since they have an *obligation* to be babysitters...)

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by saizai
I have seen, for example, a teacher at a community college confiscate a student's cellphone; throw one across the room; confiscate other miscellaneous items; etc. And have seen HS teachers confiscate entire backpacks.

Generally it's in cases of the student being disruptive - but IMHO the proper response is something along the lines of "either stop being disruptive, or leave immediately".
As I mentioned previously, I believe there is plenty in the Education Code to allow teachers to confiscate items that can reasonably be construed to be a danger, hazard or "distraction to learning." Cellphones, boom boxes, weapons, pornography, sex toys. I have seen or heard of all of these items being confiscated from students and visitors at all levels, both public and private. Like it or not, the courts are going to allow faculty to error on the side of safety and promoting a positive learning environment on any campus. I'd say it is about as close as you can get to being considered a protected zone, similar to an airport or courthouse.

[RightWing]

Thanks everyone,
The skater was actually in the bushes urinating and had left his board laying on the lawn..that's when the board was confiscated So it wasn't taken from him personely but rather picked up after he layed it down and walked away 10 feet.

Could you maybe go for a found property angle on that?

[NeverSubmit]

Originally posted by motorman4life
In some cities, they have an ordinance that allows police officers to confiscate skateboards, but I am not aware of any law or case law in regard to security or an agent of a business confiscating a skateboard lawfully.

I would think you would have to call the cops and tell the cops you want to make a citizen's arrest for tresspassing and interfering with business (under 602.1 PC), if you have asked them to leave.

You could let the officer know that you are willing to forego the arrest if they will confiscate the skateboards and return them to the parents with an admonition that in addition to having their kids arrested, the parents could be sued in accordance with California Civil Code § 3479.

Also, keep in mind that skateboarding is legally presumed to be a dangerous activity and as long as you do not permit or encourage the activity on your premises, you cannot be held liable for their incidental injury. Prominently posting "NO SKATEBOARDING, IN-LINE SKATES OR SCOOTERS ALLOWED" signs will go a long way toward protecting your business from any lawsuit as well as assiting with arrest and prosecution, if it comes down to it.

====
A PENAL CODE SECTION 602.1 [obstructing or intimidating business operators or customers] provides that any person who intentionally interferes with any lawful business or occupation carried on by the owner or owner's agent of a business open to the public by obstructing or intimidating the business operations or customers and who refuses to leave the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor.

This is so sad.... The days of simplicity are so far gone it makes me sick. All this enforcement code and effort to get a kid to comply with common sense. What ever happened to the days where kids did as they were told by an adult? Exactly why our cities are so full of crime and murder.

When I was a kid and I was to annoy a store owner or pester some one while riding my board it would have been curtains for my board after my parents found out. Today, the parents take offense to some one else giving their child some sort of discipline and then want to take it to the courts because it makes them feel like their parenting skills are inferior. Chances are that the kid is out disturbing people because his parents don't give a shit what they do anyways unless it involves getting a nice return in a lawsuit.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by RightWing
Thanks everyone,
The skater was actually in the bushes urinating and had left his board laying on the lawn..that's when the board was confiscated So it wasn't taken from him personely but rather picked up after he layed it down and walked away 10 feet.

Could you maybe go for a found property angle on that?
Let's call it ABANDONED PROPERTY and then tell them you will only release it to a parent... that might fly. :teeth

Try something like this... When the kid tries to lay claim, ask them how much it is worth. If he gives you a total over $50, then tell him, "Since it is valued at over $50, I can only release it to a parent... it's policy!"

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by NeverSubmit
This is so sad.... The days of simplicity are so far gone it makes me sick. All this enforcement code and effort to get a kid to comply with common sense. What ever happened to the days where kids did as they were told by an adult? Exactly why our cities are so full of crime and murder.

Parents...