Ticketed $275 for parking in crosshatch @ DP :(

[saizai]

Code 22507.8c(4)CVC
Officer Jesuitas #811
Berkeley
$275

:cry

Any suggestions for how to get it dismissed, dropped, or substantially reduced? (Preferably without having to front the money... 'cause I can't.)

FWIW I was careful not to block to/from the ramp & the car space, and while it was crosshatched the curb was normal gray.

$275 is rather a lot at this point (I've had a slew of emergencies recently and am barely paying rent :cry)

And for extra Murphy points, yesterday was my 25th birthday. :(

[silversvs]

The cross hatching is there to allow fo wheelchairs to get access to vehicles.

For a disabled parking citation to be issued, and to stand a challenge, there must be two distinctive indicators that the space is reserved for handicapped parking. The indicators can be a sign, a blue painted curb, or distinctly painted pavement in the parking stall. If two of those existed at the tme you were cited there is no way to get out of the ticket. Because you described the crosshatching we know there was 1 marking. Was there a sign as well?

[saizai]

Originally posted by silversvs
The cross hatching is there to allow fo wheelchairs to get access to vehicles.

For a disabled parking citation to be issued, and to stand a challenge, there must be two distinctive indicators that the space is reserved for handicapped parking. The indicators can be a sign, a blue painted curb, or distinctly painted pavement in the parking stall. If two of those existed at the tme you were cited there is no way to get out of the ticket. Because you described the crosshatching we know there was 1 marking. Was there a sign as well?

There was a sign and blue curb in the space next to it. There was no sign and no curb painting of the crosshatch zone.

(FWIW this is the space right outside Royal Ground Cafe on Bancroft)

[silversvs]

Originally posted by saizai
There was a sign and blue curb in the space next to it. There was no sign and no curb painting of the crosshatch zone.

Then you are toast. Time to pay up.:wow

[Trogdor]

You say the curb is grey? I take it the sign and blue/white symbol on the ground of the disabled spot were both there? That is all that is required. No way to fight this one.

[saizai]

Originally posted by Trogdor
You say the curb is grey? I take it the sign and blue/white symbol on the ground of the disabled spot were both there? That is all that is required. No way to fight this one.

There are two sections. A little ASCII art:

A B C D...
/------=====------
=+++X++| | |
/+++++++| | |
/+++++++| | |

A = sidewalk. = below it = ramp
+ = crosshatch
X = me
| = lane lines
= below C = blue curb
- = gray curb
C = disabled sign
D etc = normal spaces

The space I was in (B) had white crosshatch, gray curb, no disabled sign, no disabled paint on ground.

The space next to me (C) had a disabled signpost and a blue curb.

And FWIW is it possible to fight this in the usual "show up to court and hope they don't" way? Or even *get* a real judge to talk to so they can e.g. lower my fine?

[silversvs]

B is not a parking space.

You can appeal the citation, but it will be to theparking authority, not a judge. The issuing officer does not have to appear at any such hearing.

Truly, you are guilty of parking where you should not have.

[Trogdor]

Even if you do appeal the cite, you still have to pay the fine first. Make sure you get that turned in on time. The fine doubles in 21 days. Read the fine print on the parking cite.

[saizai]

leginfo.ca.gov says (http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=7149095590+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve):
22507.8. (a) It is unlawful for any person to park or leave standing any vehicle in a stall or space designated for disabled persons and disabled veterans pursuant to Section 22511.7 or 22511.8, unless the vehicle displays either a special identification license plate issued pursuant to Section 5007 or a distinguishing placard issued pursuant to Section 22511.55 or 22511.59.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to obstruct, block, or otherwise bar access to those parking stalls or spaces except as provided in subdivision (a).
(c) It is unlawful for any person to park or leave standing any vehicle, including a vehicle displaying a special identification license plate issued pursuant to Section 5007 or a distinguishing placard issued pursuant to Section 22511.55 or 22511.59, in either of the following places:
(1) On the lines marking the boundaries of a parking stall or space designated for disabled persons or disabled veterans.
(2) In any area of the pavement adjacent to a parking stall or space designated for disabled persons or disabled veterans that is marked by crosshatched lines and is thereby designated, pursuant to any local ordinance, for the loading and unloading of vehicles parked in the stall or space.
(d) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) apply to all offstreet parking facilities owned or operated by the state, and to all offstreet parking facilities owned or operated by a local authority. Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) also apply to any privately owned and maintained offstreet parking facility.


... actually, there is no 22507.8c(4) per the above.

Is that a reason to dismiss?

[saizai]

Originally posted by Trogdor
Even if you do appeal the cite, you still have to pay the fine first. Make sure you get that turned in on time. The fine doubles in 21 days. Read the fine print on the parking cite.

Back of my ticket
To contest the citation, request an administrative review within 21 days of the issue date by mail or in person at 1947 Center Street, Berkeley, CA 94704. State the reason for your review request and include a copy of all documents relating to the citation, i.e. vehicle registration, DP placard, permit information, etc. Do not include payment.

It does say "delay will result in higher penalty" but it doesn't say it's doubled. But of course every city gets to decide how much they feel like scr^H^H^Hfining you.

[rumpofsteelskin]

This could have gone even worse for you if one of these dudes noticed your bike parked there. :)

http://www.southerngent.org/movies/murderball.jpg

[}Dragon{]

Do you have a placard for your bike?

[saizai]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
Do you have a placard for your bike?

That's a joke, right?

[saizai]

Originally posted by rumpofsteelskin
This could have gone even worse for you if one of these dudes noticed your bike parked there. :)

http://www.southerngent.org/movies/murderball.jpg

Hey, that's why I was careful not to block the ramp or the car doors. ;)

[motorman4life]

They actually do have Handicapped plates for motorcycles... the little blue guy on a lil' m/c plate. Looks really odd. I have a buddy that has one. He is a war hero with one fake leg. He rides like a maniac and has a H/C plate on his 'busa.

But, as the code states... even with a placard, you cannot park in the space you were parked in. :wow

22507.8. (a) It is unlawful for any person to park or leave standing any vehicle in a stall or space designated for disabled persons and disabled veterans pursuant to Section 22511.7 or 22511.8, unless the vehicle displays either a special identification license plate issued pursuant to Section 5007 or a distinguishing placard issued pursuant to Section 22511.55 or 22511.59.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to obstruct, block, or otherwise bar access to those parking stalls or spaces except as provided in subdivision (a).
(c) It is unlawful for any person to park or leave standing any vehicle, including a vehicle displaying a special identification license plate issued pursuant to Section 5007 or a distinguishing placard issued pursuant to Section 22511.55 or 22511.59, in either of the following places:
(1) On the lines marking the boundaries of a parking stall or space designated for disabled persons or disabled veterans.
(2) In any area of the pavement adjacent to a parking stall or space designated for disabled persons or disabled veterans that is marked by crosshatched lines and is thereby designated, pursuant to any local ordinance, for the loading and unloading of vehicles parked in the stall or space.
(d) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) apply to all offstreet parking facilities owned or operated by the state, and to all offstreet parking facilities owned or operated by a local authority. Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) also apply to any privately owned and maintained offstreet parking facility.

[saizai]

mm4l - Any comment on the lack of the code that I was cited for, 22507.8(c)4?

[zpyro]

that crosshatching, as stated before, is so handicapped people can get out of their vehicles without having to try to squeeze between the car next to them. you screwed up bud.

I've seen crosshatching where there was no handicapped spots next to them, and motos were allowed to park there. They were rounded sections at the front of the parking rows, about 6-8' wide and 10-12' long. I made sure to park in those spaces and not the ones where there were handicapped spots and "NO PARKING" painted and posted all over.

[saizai]

Originally posted by zpyro
that crosshatching, as stated before, is so handicapped people can get out of their vehicles without having to try to squeeze between the car next to them. you screwed up bud.

I've seen crosshatching where there was no handicapped spots next to them, and motos were allowed to park there. They were rounded sections at the front of the parking rows, about 6-8' wide and 10-12' long. I made sure to park in those spaces and not the ones where there were handicapped spots and "NO PARKING" painted and posted all over.

FWIW, mine did not say "NO PARKING". And like I said I was careful not to block any wheelchair access. I've worked with quadriplegics before; I'm sympathetic to the cause.

I won't do it again, but in the meantime I'd like to get the fine off if possible 'cause I'm broke. :(

[Lester Green]

Originally posted by zpyro
you screwed up bud.

Originally posted by saizai
Then you just confessed to the crime you were accused of::blah :blah

Like 1FastF4i said: OWN IT. :blah :blah

[JPM]

Are you sure it's a 4? How clear is the writing? In might be a VC since you have to put the code that the violation section came from. And even a minor error on the code is no a reason for dismissal and can be amended.

There is no requirement to have it painted “No parking”, as long as the minimal signage and markings are there for a handicap spot, you can’t park in it or the crosshatching next to it. Don’t do it anymore if you can't afford the fines (but preferably to leave the space available for those the truly need it).

[Bronto]

The VA (Veterans adminstration) likes to equipt full size Vans with lifts. These lifts extend nearly five feet off to the side. Additional two half feet further is required to exit the ramp. Alltogether several feet is required for these lift vans.
Sorry you didn't know reason for these large parking spots.
Any chance they may waive the fine. If you appolize and do minor community service at a Veterans hosipital.

[saizai]

Originally posted by JPM
Are you sure it's a 4? How clear is the writing? In might be a VC since you have to put the code that the violation section came from. And even a minor error on the code is no a reason for dismissal and can be amended.

Absolutely 100% clear that it says 22507.8C(4)CVC. It's a printed ticket - the sort printed on a what's probably a heat printer on really thin paper, barcode at the top. Under "remarks" it says "100%", whatever that means.

Per leginfo.ca.gov, (4) doesn't exist.

There is no requirement to have it painted “No parking”, as long as the minimal signage and markings are there for a handicap spot, you can’t park in it or the crosshatching next to it. Don’t do it anymore if you can't afford the fines (but preferably to leave the space available for those the truly need it).

Yeah. Lesson learned.

[RolnCode3]

I've actually seen a guy with a handicapped trike get the crosshatch ticket. I didn't write it, but after he swore up a storm at the officer who did, I kinda grinned inwardly.

I just shrugged and said "I dunno".

[strnge]

Now as far as I knew there must be 2 things present.

The blue painted curb infront of the parking space or handycapped sign in general area, easily seen when sitting in car.

AND

The handycapped person painted on the ground inside the back of the parking space(so it can been seen from behind,when a vehile is parked in the space)

THIS IS ONLY POSTED TO IDENTIFY A HANDYCAPPED PARKING SPACE.......IN YOUR CASE YOUR SCREWED BECAUSE YOUR ISSUE IS THE CROSSHATCH PARKING. Was your car half way int the handycapped parking space? I usually cite for both when that happens.

22511.8. (a) Any local authority, by ordinance or resolution, and
any person in lawful possession of an offstreet parking facility may
designate stalls or spaces in an offstreet parking facility owned or
operated by the local authority or person for the exclusive use of
any vehicle which displays either a special license plate issued
pursuant to Section 5007 or a distinguishing placard issued pursuant
to Section 22511.55 or 22511.59. The designation shall be made by
posting a sign as described in paragraph (1), and by either of the
markings described in paragraph (2) or (3):
(1) By posting immediately adjacent to, and visible from, each
stall or space, a sign consisting of a profile view of a wheelchair
with occupant in white on a blue background.
(2) By outlining or painting the stall or space in blue and
outlining on the ground in the stall or space in white or suitable
contrasting color a profile view depicting a wheelchair with
occupant.
(3) By outlining a profile view of a wheelchair with occupant in
white on a blue background, of the same dimensions as in paragraph
(2). The profile view shall be located so that it is visible to a
traffic enforcement officer when a vehicle is properly parked in the
space.

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by strnge
Now as far as I knew there must be 2 things present.

The blue painted curb infront of the parking space or handycapped sign in general area, easily seen when sitting in car.


The section that you quoted shows that the blue curb is unnecessary. To comply they must satisfy 1) and either 2) or 3). 1) is the sign and 3) is the contrasting blue/white symbol painted on the ground.

[saizai]

Originally posted by strnge
Was your car half way int the handycapped parking space? I usually cite for both when that happens.

My motorcycle was not at all in the HC space. I wouldn't do that.

The HC space had blue curb, HC signpost, but IIRC no HC-related ground painting.

[JPM]

Pics please!

[saizai]

Sorry, /me no have camera.

Royal Ground Coffee House, 2409 SHATTUCK AVE (@ Durant), BERKELEY, CA. Right outside the doors.

... in case you happen to know it.

[NVR FNSH]

That was your bike:)

I keed, I keed.


Brian

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
I've actually seen a guy with a handicapped trike get the crosshatch ticket. I didn't write it, but after he swore up a storm at the officer who did, I kinda grinned inwardly.


The section for the crosshatch is pretty specifc. It says nobody shall park in the cross hatch area next to a marked disabled spot, even if that vehicle displays a disabled packard.

[strnge]

Originally posted by Trogdor
The section that you quoted shows that the blue curb is unnecessary. To comply they must satisfy 1) and either 2) or 3). 1) is the sign and 3) is the contrasting blue/white symbol painted on the ground.

Your right..no blue curb required. I usually make sure it has the blue curb too when I cite, just to make the ticket stick.

[saizai]

I have dismissed the above citation on the basis of incorrectly cited CVC section and will be sending you a decision to that effect by regular mail. You do not need to send me any additional evidence.

Sincerely,
Ann Miley
Hearing Examiner



Yay. :)

Lesson:
#1 Look up that cite on leginfo.ca.gov. It might not even exist any more! :cool

My ticket was for "22507.8C(4)CVC"; there exist 22507.8(C)1-3, but no 4. :teeth What they probably *meant* was (C)3 - parking in the crosshatch next to a disabled space, which I did indeed do (though I was right up parallel to the curb on my ninja, not blocking access for van lifts). As brought up earlier, evidently those lifts need a lot more space than I had earlier believed - I still think I wasn't blocking it, but I won't do that again.


#2 Contest the citation in writing for administrative review, AND contest the (probably automatic no) review for an actual hearing.

The lady who does it (in Berkeley at least) is very nice, has "you can't fire me 'cause I'm a sort of judge" protection, and an 85% dismissal rate. :shhh


#3 The 1 hour limit on the parking meters there isn't enough. I got a $30 expired meter ticket while I was disputing my $275 DP ticket. :cry

Good deal financially, but still, irony.

[Noid]

is this it?

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/190/281/2976055-berkely.jpg

[saizai]

Bingo. The parking spot that's empty in the top right is the DP spot in question. I was right up against the curb in the crosshatched area.


Where'd you find that?


Edit: doh, evidently I was cixelsid when I wrote that. It's the top LEFT.

[silversvs]

Saizai,

You obviously deserved the citation you were issued. You got it dismissed on a technical error, so good for you. Hopefully several folks learned something from YOUR mistake. Don't park where you are not supposed to park.

[saizai]

silversvs - Hey, I *did* list that as one of the lessons learned. :angel

[Lester Green]

"I have dismissed the above citation on the basis of incorrectly cited CVC section and will be sending you a decision to that effect by regular mail. You do not need to send me any additional evidence.

Sincerely,
Ann Miley
Hearing Examiner"

I love the last sentence. I can only imagine what this poor hearing examiner was inundated with. I envision wall to wall boxes of evidence mounting in her office, with little law interns bringing in more and more, until she's trapped and can't even get out...:laughing :laughing :laughing

[deathbug74]

Originally posted by silversvs
Don't park where you are not supposed to park.

i got a ticket for parking in the crosshatch once...catch is, it WASN'T anywhere near a disabled spot; it was excess on the end of a row.

the brown is a planter, unpainted curbs, red lines mark the parking stalls in the picture, and i was parked in the crosshatching (blue) in the V of the curb. in my case it was a regular ($20) parking ticket . same lesson though.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2958/parkingml9.jpg

[edmo]

Congrats on your ticket.

LEO's: Would the ticket have been cheaper if our criminal here would have just parked on the sidewalk?

[Balistx]

Luck you weren't is SF or Oakland, fines are $500. The crosshatch is part of the adjacent spot and does not need to have separate markings, as long as the van accessible spot is properly marking with a ground marking and vertical sign, posted at the correct height.

[strnge]

SF is only $275 for Handycapped or Crosshatch

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by deathbug74
i got a ticket for parking in the crosshatch once...catch is, it WASN'T anywhere near a disabled spot; it was excess on the end of a row.

the brown is a planter, unpainted curbs, red lines mark the parking stalls in the picture, and i was parked in the crosshatching (blue) in the V of the curb. in my case it was a regular ($20) parking ticket . same lesson though.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2958/parkingml9.jpg

For parking violations, crosshatch and other markings on the ground not adjacent to disabled parking are not covered in the VC. That'll be a city code. Some places have them. Some don't. And the fines are going to vary from city to city.

All parking sections are 22500 VC and on, if you want to see exactly what is covered under the VC.

[motorman4life]

You did not give the code section cited.I suspect if it was only a $20 fine, it was likely only a city ordinance for "parked out of marked space."

[saizai]

Originally posted by Balistx
Luck you weren't is SF or Oakland, fines are $500. The crosshatch is part of the adjacent spot and does not need to have separate markings, as long as the van accessible spot is properly marking with a ground marking and vertical sign, posted at the correct height.

As discussed, the spot in question (easily visible in the top left of the photograph posted earlier, though I still don't know where that came from) does not have any ground marking other than the usual white lines marking the space. It does have a vertical blue disabled space sign.



FWIW I also would like to know what it would have been had I parked on the sidewalk instead, e.g. right in front of the store window (not substantially blocking the door or sidewalk of course).

[Trogdor]

Originally posted by saizai


FWIW I also would like to know what it would have been had I parked on the sidewalk instead, e.g. right in front of the store window (not substantially blocking the door or sidewalk of course).

Always illegal.

22500. No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle whether attended or unattended, except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the directions of a peace officer or official traffic control device, in any of the following places:

(f) On any portion of a sidewalk, or with the body of the vehicle extending over any portion of a sidewalk [...]

See also
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144488&highlight=sidewalk+AND+parking
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=121341
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162248&highlight=sidewalk

[deathbug74]

Originally posted by motorman4life
You did not give the code section cited.I suspect if it was only a $20 fine, it was likely only a city ordinance for "parked out of marked space."

don't have the ticket handy to check the code, but i think that WAS the exact wording used.

i think i'm going to take a look around the parking section of the VC this weekend though.

[saizai]

Trogdor -

Illegal maybe, but the question was what the *fine* would be, compared to the $275 DP ticket.

"When necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic" is an interesting clause. When would that come up?

And as a technicality, is there any portion of the "sidewalk" directly in front of a business that is private property to the business, and thus okay to park on with their permission?

[Balistx]

If you have a choice, the fine for parking on the sidewalk is a fraction of the fine for a disabled parking violation. Disabled parking violations are also a civil rights violation, due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. If you got a disabled person who had is spot blocked and a shyster attorney, in theory he could civilly sue you for violating those federally guaranteed rights. Although highly unlikely, I don't think anyone has thought about approaching it from that angle.

FYI, I supervise the disabled parking unit at Fremont PD which is manned by civilian volunteers.

[Balistx]

Parking on the sidewalk in our city via the Municipal code is $60. By definition, the sidewalk is considered part of the highway. The highway consists of the rdwy, which is that portion of the highway reserved for vehicular traffic and combined with the sidewalk, which is a portion of the highway for pedestrian traffic, together, they consitute a highway. 99 percent of all sidewalks in CA are publicly maintained. Only those sidewalks located in private property areas, such as terraces and commons are privately owned and not subject to the vehicle code.


You can find the vehicle code definitions in the front of the vehicle code book and are all three digits code numbers. Once you understand the legaleze, it makes it easier to understand the individual sections.

[saizai]

balistx - AFAIK I as a private citizen not in the business of offering services can't be sued under ADA. The ADA mandates what business and the government are required to do...

Thanks for the info on the fines though. I'm pretty good at reading legalese, I just don't know the relevant sections for this - and the fines are AFAIK a city-by-city thing that are not in the law itself. (Technically, a "bail schedule" iirc? Though that's odd since they're not being used like normal bail is.)

I don't have a CVC book, just leginfo.ca.gov.

[Balistx]

Your probably right on the civil thing but no ones tried it yet.