Yella600rr's crash at 3j's 1/16/07 T9

[yella600rr]

Ok I've got some popcorn and a diet coke in my tummy and a few minutes of lunch break left.

Details:
3J's 1/16/07
Infineon Exit T9 (aka bus stop)
Last session of the day
4th lap of the session
Track temp I think was dropping below 50F
Mental capacity - insane as usual but other than that didn't feel too wiped.
Session intensity level - 70% of previous session.

Link to Ian Donald’s images of the crash. (Yes I plan to purchase said images from him but have not done so yet.)

Yella600rr's crash sequence. (http://www.iandonald.com/events/3js/011607/01160719/01160719.htm)

Start at image 65 and then work back to image 75.

You may also want to look at images ending in 21/22 and 76/77 on pages 2 and 3.

Well I knew it was the last session of the day and I tried very hard to keep it from being an aggressive speed session. Kind of like a cool down session. I know myself and at the end of the day I'm usually fatigued and prone to making mistakes. I was however working on accelerating out of T8, maintaining throttle down the hill into turn 9 on a mid track line and then begin braking firmly at the first cone.

My goal was not to maintain more speed going through the bus stop but as the day progressed I was getting smoother at my "flick over transition" so my speed did increase some.

In regards to this incident I don't recall my turn in point on the right hander being any different but I was wide on exit of right hander (maybe because I was carrying more speed than previous entrances) and when I flicked it over for the left hander I was heading for the paint stripes. High speed brain thoughts >>>> “I was afraid to lean the bike over for the left turn, I was afraid to run off because I thought someone might be coming on the outside and I panicked and squeezed the brake some in hopes to give me a few more nanoseconds to prepare another plan for the left hand turn and I tucked the front on the paint stripes.<<<<<<<<<<

I've kicked myself over a 100 times and I go over it in my head again and again, if I would have just not touched the brakes and just rode over the paint and then turned after the paint I wouldn't be posting in this thread. I look at the pics and I was upright enough to ride over the paint.

Am I correct in my afterthoughts on this?

If I can learn anything from this is, how do riders manage that gut instinct panic reflexes? And then over write them when necessary?

Thanks,
Theresa

Additional Thoughts about my crash:
My key mistake was I boched the entrance/exit of RH T9.

Plus I was instructed to never lean a bike over on paint, it is slicker than an oiled track especially when the track temp is below 60F.

I was also instructed to never apply trail braking on the paint or while the bike is dynamically unstable. I did it anyway out of a panic reflex, a reflex I need to stop, that is what I'm kicking myself for, was the panic brake application. If I would have kept from squeezing the trigger I would have increased my odds in keeping the bike upright.

Make note that I did not grab a fistful of brakes and lock up the front tire, I applied a slite pull on the lever. I may have moved my two fingers 1/4" at the most. Just the brake pads touching the roter did the tuck. I doesn't take much when the bike is unstable on a slippery slope.

In an email from a friend: "Once you were up on the paint that much it was touch and go. Unfortunately that's how we learn not to get into those situations. Chances are you will be choosing lines and watching apexes much more carefully in the future. "

Fur Sur,
Theresa

[nweaver]

What I think happened, based on the photos:

You did an "Oh shit" standup/brake, and when you hit the lower traction paint you ended up locking the front, allowing it to turn easily (a motorcycle wheel doesn't turn/tuck that easily if its moving).


One thing that I try to do is always ALWAYS trust the bike. I did a couple of boneheadedbits myself that day: downshifted too hard and felt the rear slide, and touched my toe because I wasn't leaning off enough but my feet were too far off the pegs. But in both cases, the reaction to just "ride through it" kept it from being a problem which would damage my plastic.

In particular, my reaction to "Oh shit I'm going to fast into a turn" is NOT to brake if I'm committed (which you were, you were already starting to lean as you went over the paint) but to just concentrate on turning. The worst that would happen is you lowside anyway, but it takes a LOT to lowside a bike out by just turning too sharply.

This has taken a LOT of mental reinforcement, but it has also saved my butt a couple of times (once when just starting out. If I did "panic brake", I would have speared the side of a cliff on Claremont or lowsided into it. Instead, the front wheel kissed the outside bots-dot and I kept riding). Thus I take it as a mantra: "The bike can take the turn" [1]


Also, I (perhaps foolishly) trust the person behind me not to F@#)(* up too badly, especially trying to get close/pass in the bus stop. Looking at how the rider behind you was able to react, if you had gone wide out of the turn there would have been no problem at all.


[1] Its also why I'll never ride a cruiser willingly, because its not true for a cruiser. ICK.

[Holeshot]

Theresa, actually had you added bar input and not used the brake, you likely would have gone down as well. Trust me on this: you won't make the same mistake twice. This one wasn't too costly...

Last season I crashed out of 3rd in 600 Proddy or Supebike (I can't recall which) by doing kinda the same thing. I passed a lapper on the outside of the entrance to T9 and he never turned in till wayyyy late, shoving me into the dirt aimed toward the exit of T9A. I knew enough to not turn until I was on pavement but was concerned about getting speared by him when I re-entered the track. I put some heavy bar input as soon as I got back on track and crashed on the paint stripes (kinda about 10 feet from the apex of T9A). The lapped rider was halfway between T9 & T9A when I crashed. I never added in for the speed differential.

Now, if I get into a situation like that I force myself to take a quick look and not target fixate on getting back on track. Don't worry so much about people behind you. If they're any good, they'll know you're in a situation when they see you ride the paint.

[tzrider]

T-

T9 is a turn that accounts for many, many track day crashes. Yours is a variation on a common theme up to a point.

Where your incident is probably similar to others is in your entry speed. If your entry speed is higher than you're comfortable, you'll either turn early or not quickly enough and will run wide in the right-hander.

Once that happens, riders either get into the predicament you did or they may avoid the paint, but turn the bike into the left-hander and then realize they are running out of track at the exit. They add lean angle while they are adding throttle and lose the rear.

It looks like you may have been able to let off the brakes, let the bike run straight as you crossed the paint and then squeeze the brakes on again on the other side. Unless you're going hopelessly too fast at the entrance, there is usually enough room to bleed off some speed and get the bike turned before you run off.

[yella600rr]

Thanks Guys!

I wish I knew who the guy was behind me on the red bike so I could buy him some new whitey titeys.

I'm amazed he didn't hit my bike and that he didn't crash his own bike.

[clutchslip]

Originally posted by yella600rr
........I was afraid to run off because I thought someone might be coming on the outside.......

Am I correct in my afterthoughts on this? ......

Thanks,
Theresa

I know that you, like me, worry about the people behind you. I have seen it.

There was a crowd at that corner at that time. So........ whether you share it, or not. I hope you will review how you felt in regard to the other riders.

It's a very strange, competitive, yet survivalist, and yet helpful line we travel out on the track.

Before you, and everyone else, nic-pics technique apart, look at those other issues that may influence your abilities.

I will gladly ride with you anytime. :)

[slydrite]

Damn!

VeeStrom's and GS's on the track :loco

[yella600rr]

Originally posted by clutchslip

There was a crowd at that corner at that time. So........ whether you share it, or not. I hope you will review how you felt in regard to the other riders.


Well I used to be edgy or jumpy when I would have some one close in on me or fly by me but not anymore.
I have only 15 trackdays under my tires and less than 4000 miles of sport bike riding. The best thing I was taught by my teachers and mentors was plan your line, ride your line, and ride it tite.

If I'm in front and I'm riding tite lines then the track is MINE so pass my ass if you want me to notice you exist out there.

Originally posted by clutchslip

I will gladly ride with you anytime. :)

Thanks, I'll be at Sears or Laguna a few times this year so don't be shy, I don't bite too hard. ;)

[afm199]

That was one of those crashes where sometimes you are just screwed.... The worst part about track riding, when you make a mistake, the consequences may be severe.

It looks to me like all you could have done was straightline it out and risk getting taken out, or try to turn and risk putting it down. Either one sucks. Which is, unfortunately, the risk we take.

[CRAWLL]

Didn't know you went down. Hope all is fixed soon if not already!

[clutchslip]

Originally posted by afm199
That was one of those crashes where sometimes you are just screwed....

I was screwed in all my crashes. :laughing
But I'm working on the the non-screwed kind.

[afm199]

A few years ago I saw Matt Mladin hit the airfence at T10 at Sears at about 120 mph (before the T 9 chicane). He got up, picked up his, bike kicked the shift lever, and rode off.

[clutchslip]

That's what I'm talking about!
We all coulda been contenders, if we crashed better.
That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

[675 Trip]

Originally posted by yella600rr
Thanks Guys!

I wish I knew who the guy was behind me on the red bike so I could buy him some new whitey titeys.

I'm amazed he didn't hit my bike and that he didn't crash his own bike.

best pictures I can find of the side of his bike http://www.iandonald.com/events/3js/011607/0116079/page3.htm #957

http://www.iandonald.com/events/3js/011607/01160712/01160712.htm #1276

It looks like a pretty distinctive bike, but I don't recognize it.

[mgb]

T, I remember the crash in the last session but I didn't know it was you. When I saw you afterwards, just before we all headed home, I had no idea you had been down.

Glad you're OK - hope to see you out at another trackday soon...

[ianG]

Hey T, here's some thoughts.

Originally posted by yella600rr
High speed brain thoughts >>>> “I was afraid to lean the bike over for the left turn, I was afraid to run off because I thought someone might be coming on the outside and I panicked and squeezed the brake some in hopes to give me a few more nanoseconds to prepare another plan for the left hand turn and I tucked the front on the paint stripes.<<<<<<<<<<
Never focus on what or who is behind you. Focus on what's ahead. You can never predict what a rider will do when they see someone lose control in front of them. It's always safest to concentrate on yourself.

Originally posted by yella600rr
Plus I was instructed to never lean a bike over on paint, it is slicker than an oiled track especially when the track temp is below 60F.
There are few absolutes in riding. Riding over painted candy stripes doesn't mean an automatic crash. I think you saw that paint and immmediately thought, "Crap, I'm gonna slide!" You probably could have ridden right over the paint so long as you were smooth and didn't do anything abrupt.

Originally posted by yella600rr
I was also instructed to never apply trail braking on the paint or while the bike is dynamically unstable. I did it anyway out of a panic reflex, a reflex I need to stop, that is what I'm kicking myself for, was the panic brake application. If I would have kept from squeezing the trigger I would have increased my odds in keeping the bike upright.

Make note that I did not grab a fistful of brakes and lock up the front tire, I applied a slite pull on the lever. I may have moved my two fingers 1/4" at the most. Just the brake pads touching the roter did the tuck. I doesn't take much when the bike is unstable on a slippery slope
Chances are it wasn't a matter of just applying the breaks, but how you applied them. Sometimes we don't realize just how hard we grab the brakes under panic mode. You more than likely just grabbed the breaks too fast and too hard which caused the brakes to lock up for just a brief moment. You could have lightly grazed the lever and ridden away without incident.

And again, the idea that you should 'never' (fill in the blank) doesn't always apply to each situation.

I've kicked myself over a 100 times and I go over it in my head again and again, if I would have just not touched the brakes and just rode over the paint and then turned after the paint I wouldn't be posting in this thread. I look at the pics and I was upright enough to ride over the paint.
You gotta stop kicking yourself. You can't come to the track still mad at yourself from old crashes. Otherswise you'll psych yourself out and end up getting frustrated because you can't get past the mental block.

Learn what you can from a crash, anylyze what you did and how you can correct it in the future, and move on.

We all find outselves in those panic situations.
http://gotbluemilk.com/web060710/308/imagepages/image7.html

You just need to learn how to remain calm, stay relaxed and everything will fall into place.

[afm199]

The caption on that photo should be: "So far, so good."

[edmo]

Hello. Glad you're ok.

[Variable]

Originally posted by ianG
You gotta stop kicking yourself. You can't come to the track still mad at yourself from old crashes. Otherswise you'll psych yourself out and end up getting frustrated because you can't get past the mental block.

Learn what you can from a crash, anylyze what you did and how you can correct it in the future, and move on.

We all find outselves in those panic situations.
http://gotbluemilk.com/web060710/308/imagepages/image7.html

You just need to learn how to remain calm, stay relaxed and everything will fall into place.

Pic caption should read: I like to take my street bike on the MX tracks. It's more of a challenge!

--> IanG - Apologies for making light of that pic - Hope you came out of that one ok! Cool pic BTW!

[yella600rr]

Originally posted by ianG

We all find ourselves in those panic situations.

You just need to learn how to remain calm, stay relaxed and everything will fall into place.

Thanks Ian!

I hope someday this little grasshopper will find that place. I know she wants too be an excellent rider not a fast rider.

It rocks that there are riders like you and so many others that take pride and joy in teaching others the art of smooth riding.

I don't believe you get paid very much to teach at a trackday.

T

[ianG]

Originally posted by Variable
Pic caption should read: I like to take my street bike on the MX tracks. It's more of a challenge!

--> IanG - Apologies for making light of that pic - Hope you came out of that one ok! Cool pic BTW!

You kidding me, that photo is begging to be made fun of. Fire away. I walk away with a couple broken bones, but nothing too serious.

[ianG]

Originally posted by yella600rr
I don't believe you get paid very much to teach at a trackday.
:laughing :laughing :laughing
Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.
:laughing :laughing :laughing

[Variable]

Originally posted by ianG
You kidding me, that photo is begging to be made fun of. Fire away. I walk away with a couple broken bones, but nothing too serious.

Glad you're a good sport about it!!! :cool

I can never tell who might flame up around here if you write something about them..... :confused

Glad you survived and you're here to ride another day!!! :burnout

[nweaver]

Also, one other random thought (in the "Why I would have just gone for it and try to make the turn" and to justify my "when in doubt, go for the turn" attitude I've been trying to develop over the years)...

A spinning wheel straight up on a bad traction surface is going to go straight. No slide, no muss.

A spinning wheel turning on a bad traction surface may slide. Bad bad bad but not NECESSARILY catastrophic.

A stopped front wheel on a bad traction surface. Well, a stopped wheel period, and if the wheel isn't spinning again in a fraction of a second is an instant crash as the front tucks under. Owch.


Too bad the MSF doesn't have an outrigger bike for training: it is useful to know what a locked front feels like (terrifying).


Again, however, I'm slow.

[afm199]

I'll go back to my orginal statement. Sometimes you get in situations on the track where every option sucks and all the choices are bad ones.

It's all very good to look at situations and do what ifs, in this case I think the lesson was more difficult, it was "how not to enter a corner, and why you will remember it in the future." Those lessons are hard earned, and remembered.

I put my bike down in T3 at Laguna just barely tapping the front to scrub off some speed when someone went down right in front of me. I followed them off the track like a twin.

[yella600rr]

Originally posted by afm199

It's all very good to look at situations and do what ifs, in this case I think the lesson was more difficult, it was "how not to enter a corner, and why you will remember it in the future." Those lessons are hard earned, and remembered.


Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!!
We have an analize this crash winner.
:cool

PM me for information on how to collect on your prize! :teeth

Quoted and bolded lest it get overlooked.

[Joebar4000]

I have what looks to be a very similar crash on tape, on a sunny day, on good tarmac.

You were coming from a hard right to hard left, correct? You flicked it pretty hard from one side to the other. Although it looks like you have *some* weight on the tire at the start of the slide, I'd love to see the pictures right before that.

Several things go on - by going from any hard turn to upright, you move the Cog of the bike upwards. You're now trying to lower it back down again by entering another turn, but it still wants to carry on lifting the front, plus you're accelerating, so the front is super-light.

Gyroscopic precession also wants to make the front wheel move to the right when you turn it to the left.

I'll try to digitize that video and you can see exactly the moment that it happens - the front wheel lifts up right as the bike is most stood-up, and never regains grips when it touches down.

Add to this you did a harder turn in than normal, you *may* have hit the brakes on the paint or not, and you're on a low-friction surface while the front wheel is light and trying to go off-line just be the nature of it being a big fuckoff gyro AND you have upward momentum from coming 'up' from the previous corner.

[Holeshot]

Ernie, I'd not agree with you that the outcome was predetermined by the action. Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.

[yella600rr]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her 2nd mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!!
We have an analize this crash winner runner up.! :teeth

PM me for information on how to collect on your prize!

Quoted and bolded lest it get overlooked.

Thanks Holeshot! I added 2nd to your quote.

There is no quick solution to panic management except for more seat time and practise getting good all the dynamics of riding a rocket. Is there?

The decision has to be determined before the incident because in the time it takes to decide the moment to apply the solution has already passed. I've got to learn how to tap into the MATRIX!

[afm199]

I agree with your statement, Berto. I think a more experienced rider could have kept it up. My point is more that the options at that point were limited and the time available to choise one and execute it even more limited. A really good rider might have well kept it up and made the turn.

What i am wanting to point out is that the decisions made prior to a turn determine its outcome just as much as the decisions made mid turn.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by afm199
What i am wanting to point out is that the decisions made prior to a turn determine its outcome just as much as the decisions made mid turn.

Most crashes in turns have something to do with an error the rider made in the approach, whether it's a problem with entry speed, turn rate, turn point, etc.

[KaWySiCkHuNdReD]

Originally posted by Holeshot

Her mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up.

I did notice from pic _I7G1965 ( from http://www.iandonald.com/events/3js/011607/01160719/01160719.htm) that she was already looking at the strip instead of up ahead.

[dsapsis]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ernie, I'd not agree with you that the outcome was predetermined by the action. Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.

I certainly am not the smartest person around here, but Berto seems spot on. If you look at the first shot in the sequence the front is cockeyed -- I can only presume she is on the brakes. Prior to that shot (back up 5 feet and she is no longer on the paint) and presume no brakes are applied. She is upright, and could -- IMO -- simply have ridden over the paint then tipped it in. The apex area of 9a is possibly the slowest section of the whole track (t 11 likely a tad slower) so no matter if a person is behind her, the speeds are low, that person has seen the error in the line, and likely taken their own personal safety to task.

I honestly believe no brakes, no crash.

[Zerox]

Originally posted by slydrite
VeeStrom's and GS's on the track :loco

Fear the Strom, don't make me go race it in 650 Twins. :laughing

[Gary J]

Originally posted by yella600rr
Additional Thoughts about my crash:
My key mistake was I boched the entrance/exit of RH T9.

Theresa, I'm glad that the outcome of the T9 crash wasn't too bad, and you're using it as an event from which you can come away learning something to make you an even better rider.

Looking at the photos, tells the story clearly on the root cause of the final "crashing". If you look at the first two photos when you're on the paint, you'll see that you can actually see "air" under your rear tire. That means that you were braking REALLY hard while on the paint.

The real error that put you down, was not your braking most of the time while on the paint, but instead the error in not getting OFF the front brake as your front tire reached the downward/off-camber slope at the last foot or so while leaving the painted berm. If you'd gotten off the front brake for just that 1 second of time that it took for your front tire to complete the downhill ramp of leaving the painted curbing and returning to the normal track surface again, you wouldn't have lost the front end.

The key to such situations, is what I call "interval braking". What's that mean? Well it means actively changing the amount of braking force that a rider is applying, millisecond by millisecond, based upon the traction potential of the exact spot the front tire is on at that precise moment.

To illustrate the concept, here's a visual. Pretend a braking drill was setup at a track school, with the following. On the last 50 yards approaching a turn, in the straight, the drill consisted of having placed 2' x 2' pieces of smooth cardboard on the track surface, spaced 10 feet apart, in this final approach to the turn. The secret for the rider to slow down enough to make the turn, without losing the front on the patches of smooth cardboard, is to do "interval braking".

That means that during the .5 second intervals that the bike's front tire is passing over each of the cardboard patches, the rider consciously gets 100% OFF the front brake just prior to, and while on top of the patch. This is followed by the rider taking full advantage of braking as much as possible immediate thereafter, when the tire returns to normal pavement again. This is a cycle of alternating between total brake release, to maximum braking, precisely timed, to achieve the needed speed reduction to get down to the safe entrance speed for the upcoming turn, without crashing on the dangerous spots (cardboard).

In the case of your Turn 9 incident, in retrospect, if you'd considered the painted curbing you were crossing as one of these "no brake zones", and concentrated on getting down to serious braking in a straight line immediately upon returning to the normal track surface on the other side, I suspect you'd have been well able to scrub off enough speed to not run off the track on the exit of 9a, and would have not crashed as a result.

Overcoming "survival instincts", and "fixation", by mentally (and forcibly) substituting "learned skills" in such unplanned oh-_hit moments, isn't easy, but it is the goal to work torward for all of us; as we strive to be better riders.

I hope the info above may potenitally be of some value as food-for-thought for you Theresa, in making your next trackday experience an even better one. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to stop by the pits at the next trackday where we're both there. Always glad to help, if I can. :thumbup

Gary J

[yella600rr]

Hey Gary_J,

It sounds as if it would be good practice for me to set up this braking drill on the cul-de-sac in front of our house and start practicing this at a slow speed, as it would give me some reflex training.

Thanks,
T

[Gary J]

Originally posted by yella600rr
It sounds as if it would be good practice for me to set up this braking drill on the cul-de-sac in front of our house and start practicing this at a slow speed, as it would give me some reflex training.
Sounds like an intersting plan Theresa. Just be careful is you're going to actually setup some kind of a drill of this kind, as the "no brake zones" (the cardboard, etc) need to be just that (get OFF the brakes from "just prior to", until "slightly past"), or the penalty could be pretty nasty!

Effective "interval braking" skills begin by looking a good distance ahead of you, in dynamically analyzing the traction conditions that your tire will be passing over moment-by-moment. The second element is the ability to then program your brain to be able to quickly make precise adjustments in the amount of braking force you're applying at the lever, as your tire passes over each discrete piece of real estate. Getting the "timing" just right, to reflect the braking force mapping plan, is essential.

This is a skill that's important for any form of motorcycle riding, but becomes increasingly critical to master for riders that have a focus on "going faster" at the track. Also a must-have skill for riding safely in the rain. Being able to perfectly match the amount of brake lever force to the amount of available traction, millisecond by millisecond, is the secret to mastering the art a maximum braking efficiency.

The key is viewing the application of brake lever pressure as much more than "an on-off switch", even on the racetrack where sticky tires and warm conditions offer traction levels that are high enough to come close to the 100% braking power level. Viewing brake lever application pressure as an infinitely variable force, over a 0% to 100% range, is where it all starts.

If you do the drill Theresa, please report back on the results, as it'd be interesting to hear. Best of luck.

Gary J

[nweaver]

Gary:

Stupid question: Is it just me or does what it sounds like in many ways you are advocating practicing what ABS does automatically?

(albeit slightly differently, ABS can't "see" the road ahead, only the traction where it actually is.)

[Raven_05R6]

target fixation and turning in on slick paint

[ianG]

Originally posted by Raven_05R6
target fixation and turning in on slick paint

There's a lot more involved actually. Target fixation wasn't the main cause.