Off Duty Beating

[ALANRIDER7]

Should this guy be out on bond?

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=2595515n&channel=i_video

[Racer_Boy]

Good old Chicago PD, just as I remember them.. What was it that negro "gangsta rap" group said back in the '80's?

[motorman4life]

He is free on bond. It does not say how much. Could be $100k or more. Unlike an electrician or plumber or car salesman, he not only lost his job, but his career is flushed too. I'm glad to see he won't get away with it, but the net penalty he will get will be much greater than if she had actually been hurt by some neighborhood criminal.

I have seen some sick criminal shit that makes this case look like patty-cakes; attempted murder, torture, rape/sodomy, dismembering live people and live animals.. all captured on tape (film or photos). Those assholes still get a bond set and if they can meet it, they get out on bail. That is just the way it is.

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by motorman4life

I have seen some sick criminal shit that makes this case look like patty-cakes; attempted murder, torture, rape/sodomy, dismembering live people and live animals.. all captured on tape (film or photos). Those assholes still get a bond set and if they can meet it, they get out on bail. That is just the way it is.

By off duty officers?

:wow

[motorman4life]

No, not by off-duty officers. Mostly just DV stuff from off-duty officers. Nothing really dramatic.

The fact that he is an off-duty officer should not really matter as to the weight of the criminal charges. Just as the consequences he will face at work should not get him any break in his criminal sentencing. IMNSHO.

[monkeythumpa]

So lets fast forward to when this guy gets out.

He will be yoked, have firearms and police training, yet will be unable to get a job in any field he is trained in. I wonder how he will make money on the streets . . .

[masameet]

He'll probably join the WWF and become Abbate the Abominable.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by monkeythumpa
So lets fast forward to when this guy gets out.

He will be yoked, have firearms and police training, yet will be unable to get a job in any field he is trained in. I wonder how he will make money on the streets . . .
Well, tat is making a few assumptions.. leaps really.
First off, unless they go after him for attempted murder, we're really looking at a misdemeanor battery, apparently while intoxicated. Probably a first offense (or at least the first time he was charged). So, I suspect he would take some plea to about any misdemeanor charge for as little jail time as he can get. Anger management and alcohol couseling would be a given. Probation too. He could concieveably escape any jail time (or any time served), but whatever he gets, on a misdemeanor, it would be a year or less in jail. Fewer guys come out of jail and prison "yoked" as you might think. Many are very seditary, find religion (at least for a short time) and do their time. Most come out fat and lazy.

With a violent misdemeanor, in CA, he would be prevented from owning or posessing a firearm.

So, he'll be a disgraced, fat, ex-cop that can't get a job doing what he has done his whole career and has no one to thank for it but himself. And there's the civil suit from the uninjured bartender.. that should totally bankrupt him. I predict suicide. :shhh That is, if he isn't raped and killed in jail. :sex :rip

[}Dragon{]

The victim in his last criminal charge against him, supposedly died before the trial :|

[07chuck]

The Chicago Police Department can still manage to lose the video from the evidence locker.

Oops, not these days with copies of the vid on YouTube, etc. Did you read about someone coming in later that night and talking to the victim about not pressing charges in exchange for some cash?

A good friend of mine used to live in Chicago and was on the receiving end of some tough Chicago PD love on a few occasions. Mind your P's and Q's when in Chicago folks.

[Burner]

It's reasons like this that I'm against nation wide concealed carry for cops. You never know what kinds of officers are on the force in other states. I think concealed carry nation wide should have been left with the feds only.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by 07chuck
Oops, not these days with copies of the vid on YouTube, etc. Did you read about someone coming in later that night and talking to the victim about not pressing charges in exchange for some cash?

This has the making of a Steven Segal movie. :laughing

[Bad Kitty]

Is it wrong that we have an expectation of our police officers to have more self restraint than to viciously beat a tiny girl in a bar? drunk or sober? I understand that cops are people too, but, we expect cops to have an above average sense of restraint and temperance because of the nature of their work. I don't think it is un-reasonable.

In this situation, Chicago has more blemishes and disgraceful behavior than I have seen, along with NYC.

Flame away, I'm wearing my turnouts.

[Burner]

Originally posted by Nice Kitty
Is it wrong that we have an expectation of our police officers to have more self restraint than to viciously beat a tiny girl in a bar? drunk or sober? I understand that cops are people too, but, we expect cops to have an above average sense of restraint and temperance because of the nature of their work. I don't think it is un-reasonable.

In this situation, Chicago has more blemishes and disgraceful behavior than I have seen, along with NYC.

Flame away, I'm wearing my turnouts.
I agree. If you don't wanna be held to that standard, then you're in the wrong profession. This case is extremely heinous. Maybe if he got pissed and beat on some male bartender, well that's not AS bad, still poor judgement. But beating on a FEMALE half his size, WTF kind of judgement is that, especially for a cop?!? I would consider that to be piss poor judgement for any male civilian, let alone a COP! Not to mention the fact that any dumb shit has gotta assume there's a camera in that place. He's either really stupid or must think he's invincible. How the hell did someone like that guy ever become a police officer? embarrassing...

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by Burner
How the hell did someone like that guy ever become a police officer? embarrassing...

Lowered hiring standings... he had a DUI and driving on a suspended license prior to becoming a cop.

I'm sure the standards with New Orleans may even be lower. Starting pay at: $30,732 :| You get what you pay for.

[Bad Santa]

I don't have the words to express my contempt for a low-life, piece of shit, bully asshole who would brutally attack a woman half his size like this. Nor for the punk-ass coward bystanders in the video who stood by and watched it happen. I hope he does some hard time, and I hope the weaklings who stood by and watched it happen feel utter shame every time they look in the mirror.

The asshole's job doesn't really have anything to do with it, aside from the fact that he's definitely not going to have it anymore.

[nakedape]

Yea, bad cop, no donut. Why do I even look at them? Voyerism I quess. She defended herself pretty well, legs up kicking, and he never went to the ground.

Prediction: CPD will get INS involved and she won't be around for trial. Or be run out in fear after not taking the bribe. Don't ever think that because an officer has committed a mortal sin that he will not be protected in the end. He could house arrest, counseling, alcohol rehab, and retirement benes if he's "let go from duty" in a certain way.

Send guys like that to Iraq where thay can play tough till they die. Ironically, she was upholding the law by denying service to someone who was intoxicated. And she's hawt...NApe

[brichter]

Originally posted by Nice Kitty
Flame away, I'm wearing my turnouts.

I love a woman in uniform! :leghump :laughing :twofinger

[RolnCode3]

I guess I'm confused.

He was off-duty and f'd up. Beatings happen every day around the country. He didn't do anything special.

He's gonna' take his lumps like anyone else caught doing what he did.

And that's it...nothing special.

[USARMworker]

Given the relative sizes of the persons involved, that looked like attempted murder to me.

Just like squiddly riders and Hell's Angels give all motorcyclists a bad name, this asshole gives all cops a bad name.

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by USARMworker
Given the relative sizes of the persons involved, that looked like attempted murder to me.
Sorry dude. It ain't pretty, but that's nothing.

I've seen MUCH worse beatings...and injuries, with just misdemeanor charges. The kicking could be treated as ADW, but other than that, it's clearly misdemeanor assault. I finally watched it for the first time tonight...expected it to be worse.

If she had been injured seriously, something similar to our PC 243(d) could be used...but considering that she has almost no injuries (I haven't been following the story, but that one didn't say anything about them) it'd be hard to get anything better. Again, the kicking could go ADW, but it'd probably get dropped to misdemeanor battery...in the interest of justice.

Just my professional opinion.

[motorman4life]

The only time you see ADW charges is when they are steel-toe boots (or those Mexican Cockroach killer chrome tips) and/or when there is serious injuries requiring hospitalization or surgery.

Like I said earlier, this is a petty beating and if it were done by a carpetlayer or mechanic, the net consequences would be probation, anger management and a fine. Now, this guy will lose his job/career and possibly his pension and benefits... in addition to the consequences a "regular" citizen would have to deal with.

I agree he is a total POS and I'm not trying to minimize what he did, but he will clearly get fucked over. I was serious when I made the previous comment that he will likely end up comitting suicide, particularly if he gets jail time.

[FrigginChi]

I'm confused. If I beat down a cop I get charged with assault on a Peace Officer which has extra penalties and stuff. But if a cop beats me down it's just simple assault. Sheesh!

[USARMworker]

Originally posted by Friggin Chi
I'm confused. If I beat down a cop I get charged with assault on a Peace Officer which has extra penalties and stuff. But if a cop beats me down it's just simple assault. Sheesh!

Good point. Those whose duty it is to uphold the law should be held to a higher standard. Unfortunately cops are people, too and some people are dicks. But IMO an off duty cop (with some combat training, presumably) beating on a citizen (who it is his job to protect) should face higher penalties than a citizen beating on a citizen. F*ck that guy.

[brichter]

Originally posted by Friggin Chi
I'm confused. If I beat down a cop I get charged with assault on a Peace Officer which has extra penalties and stuff. But if a cop beats me down it's just simple assault. Sheesh!

Yup, it's simple assault unless the LEO somehow involves his status as a LEO, then it becomes assault under color of authority, at which point the stakes go up.

[scalvert]

Sorry guys, but I think MM4L's got this one nailed, assuming the CPD doesn't manage to make the woman disappear or otherwise thwart justice. Frankly I doubt that'll happen. Since we're talking about this case here, people in Chicago will be talking about it and the CPD's brass is probably better served by running the officer through the system than "helping him out". Now, if this were a case that got no publicity there'd be a real good chance in a town like Chicago that things would magically work out for the officer.

Assuming that doesn't happen though, going through the system will leave the officer a fat washed up disgraced ex-cop, which is approximately as shitty a place as I think he deserves to end up.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Friggin Chi
I'm confused. If I beat down a cop I get charged with assault on a Peace Officer which has extra penalties and stuff. But if a cop beats me down it's just simple assault. Sheesh!
No need to be confused. If you beat down a cop, a firefighter, an EMT, a doctor or a dog catcher, in the performance of their duties, then you would be charged with assault on (insert applicable profession here), as applicable. All of these are MISDEMEANOR violations, just like assault on a bartender or assault on joe-blow waiting at a bus stop. The "extra penalties" stem from them acting in the course of their employment.

If an off-duty officer beats you down unlawfully and is not acting within the scope of their employment, then they should be held to the standard of any other citizen. If they are ON-DUTY and it is determined they acted unlawfully, in addition to state charges, they can actually be prosecuted on federal charges for felony "assault under color of authority" as well as other related civil rights charges (these are regardless of the race of any of the involved parties).

A good example is the officers in the Rodney King incident. They were indicted, but later found "not guilty" on the associated charges in that incident. They were later charged in federal court (double jeopardy?) and subsequently found guilty on the federal charges. For all intents and purposes, this is a double standard that only applies to peace officers and only when on-duty.

[scalvert]

Wow, that bartender is hawt, tough, and lucky. Some of the haymakers he was throwing could have really fucked her up. Glad that didn't happen.

I agree about the bystanders. I guess if I was drunk and therefore not at my best for fighting I might hesitate to jump in. But fuck, the beating he was delivering was nasty enough that a deadly force attack by a bystander was clearly warranted. In their shoes I think I'd have grabbed the nearest fire extinguisher. You come up from behind somebody like that and hit them with the extinguisher on the head and, well, the fight will be over, and the attacker will probably be over too. If not when they face you a couple blasts of the powder right to the face will blind him and subdue him.

The fact the bystanders let that go on as long as they did makes them spineless fucks.

[Burner]

Originally posted by Friggin Chi
I'm confused. If I beat down a cop I get charged with assault on a Peace Officer which has extra penalties and stuff. But if a cop beats me down it's just simple assault. Sheesh!
If you beat up a cop during the performance of his duties, then it's assault on a peace officer. If you beat him up while he's off duty, then it's just like beating up any other citizen. Say like you find out a cop slept with your wife or shit like that, so you go find him while he's on duty and punch him out becuse of what he did with your wife. You might not even get assault on a peace officer because your attack did not relate to him performing his duties. You weren't resisting arrest or anything, you just took it out on him because he slept with your wife. You could possibly just get charged as if he's some other citizen.

Originally posted by motorman4life
A good example is the officers in the Rodney King incident. They were indicted, but later found "not guilty" on the associated charges in that incident. They were later charged in federal court (double jeopardy?) and subsequently found guilty on the federal charges. For all intents and purposes, this is a double standard that only applies to peace officers and only when on-duty.

Double jeopardy does not apply because it's two different sovereignties (fed and state). If you commit a crime which is both a fed and state offense, you can be tried by both. However, if I'm not mistaken, I think the fed charges in the King incident were different than the state charges.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Burner
Double jeopardy does not apply because it's two different sovereignties (fed and state). If you commit a crime which is both a fed and state offense, you can be tried by both. However, if I'm not mistaken, I think the fed charges in the King incident were different than the state charges.
The federal charges in the LAPD case were for the same acts and the same incident with the same "victim," they were different charges because the federal laws are different from the state laws. Technically, every bank robber could be tried in state and federal court. But alas, they are not. The only time you see people charged in both courts is when they are cops. Why wasn't OJ charged with the applicable federal civil rights violations commited against his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman?

The fact of the matter is, right or wrong, the officers were following the existing LAPD policy on dealing with PCP sustects that were non-compliant. The "deliver strikes until the suspect complies and remains prone or becomes unconscious and can be safely restrained without risk to the officers or public" was the standard policy by most CA departments for decades. That LAPD policy was changed after the Rodney King incident.

The CHP Officer, Melanie Singer (the female officer that was crying on the stand), testified that SHE felt the officers were on the scene were using excessive force... if you review the video, she had her GUN DRAWN and AIMED at Mr. King when the police arrived. It was Sergeant Koon, one of the officers that was eventually tried and convicted in federal court, that ordered her to holster her weapon and began attempting to take King into custody using mere verbal commands. Ironic that she was the only person on scene with her gun out and was the only person on scene that said she felt it was safe to stop the blows and that the repeated blows were not needed. What was she going to do if he got up and came toward her? Shoot him?

He was not responding to clear verbal commands, was rocking side to side in the car when instructed to exit the vehicle, turned around and shook his buttocks after exiting the vehicle and even stopped and waived at the police helicopter that was spotlighting him. He overcame 2 tazer volleys and ultimately threw 4 officers off him before they initiated the procedures for subduing a person that is suspected to be under the influence of PCP. If the officers were wrong in their application of force in that case, it was the policy was wrong. This is what was demonstrated in the state trial and were aquitted on the state charges as a result.

In the federal trial, they were not allowed to bring up the department policy. They were not allowed to show training videos that demonstrated exactly what the baton blows were delivered in accordance with the LAPD policy. They were not even allowed to present evidence or information pertaining to Mr. Kings violent past.

It is worth mentioning that there were 2 passengers in the car with Mr. King. Both of them happen to be black. Both of them complied with police instructions and were taken into custody without incident. That is something the public was never really told. If the allegations of racisim and abuse were true, why did the officers (and it is worth mentioning that one was hispanic) not have any conflict with King's compliant passengers?

Everyone saw the edited video and jumped on the bandwagon. The fact is, there was footage that was not shown in the news. In the footage that was shown, one officer is seen using his boot to push King's shoulder down as he was trying to get up. That particular use of force was used as one of the most damning examples of mistreatment in that case (it was also the only thing he did that was not in sync with the department policy). That officer had 2 options in his effort to try to get King to remain down on the ground, as he was being instructed to do: 1) continue the baton blows, which had been mostly ineffective, or 2) push him down with his boot and repeat his clear instructions to stay down. I think the push with the boot was likely the most humane thing he could do at that point.

Anyhow, the fact is, as far as I know, only police face what can only amount to "double jeopardy" as the "separate sovereigns exception" to the 5th amendment is not applied equally.

[drizz]

I think the idea of trying this in both fed and state courts is to debunk an appeal and strike while the steal is hot, so the speak.

Basically, it looks like a slam dunk case right now. People are pissed, it's a matter in the public eye, etc.

Once things cool off, an appeal to the fed courts would be a little less of a slam dunk for the prosecution

[Bad Santa]

Originally posted by motorman4life
The only time you see people charged in both courts is when they are cops.

Anyhow, the fact is, as far as I know, only police face what can only amount to "double jeopardy" as the "separate sovereigns exception" to the 5th amendment is not applied equally.

Actually, another good example of the "dual sovereigns" principle was the case of the 1995 Oklahoma City Alfred P. Murrah Federal building bombing. That atrocity--prior to 9/11 the deadliest terrorist attack on U.S. soil--killed 168 people, including eight Federal LEOs from various agencies. When Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were caught, they were tried in Federal court; right or wrong, in cases such as this the Feds are almost always gonna get the first dibs. Since the murder of a private citizen is not generally a Federal crime, they were only charged with the murders of those eight Federal agents.

At the end of trial, McVeigh and Nichols were both convicted of a number of counts which carried a potential death penalty. McVeigh was sentenced to death (and, thankfully, executed in 2001--good riddance to a piece of real scum). The jury for some inexplicable reason, however, had some sympathy for Nichols, and he got off with a sentence of life without the possibility of parole.

Well, the great state of Oklahoma was not amused by the prospect of the co-conspirator in the slaughter of scores of Oklahomans getting off without the ultimate punishment. State prosecutors subsequently tried Nichols in state court for the murders of the 160 victims who were not Federal agents. Nichols was convicted... and then, ironically, the state jury declined to give him the death penalty. Life without parole.

For another example, there were numerous cases from the civil rights era where Ku Klux Klan members were tried in southern state courts for lynchings and other acts of racially-motivated violence, and were acquitted as a result of "jury nullification". Some of them were subsequently re-tried in Federal court on civil rights charges for essentially the same offense.

So, my rather long-winded point is that the "dual sovereigns" principle is not "just for cops", but is a long-established and court-tested principle which has been used to redress some real injustices.

Oh, and none of this implies that I agree with the Federal prosecution of Sgt. Koon and the other officers involved in the Rodney King "beating". In fact, I strongly believe those cops got hosed for transparently political reasons, when they were only trying to do their jobs. If anyone is interested in a very thorough, apolitical, and unbiased account of that whole case, read Official Negligence by Lou Cannon.

Enough from me.

[Burner]

Originally posted by motorman4life
The federal charges in the LAPD case were for the same acts and the same incident with the same "victim," they were different charges because the federal laws are different from the state laws. Technically, every bank robber could be tried in state and federal court. But alas, they are not. The only time you see people charged in both courts is when they are cops. Why wasn't OJ charged with the applicable federal civil rights violations commited against his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman?

The fact of the matter is, right or wrong, the officers were following the existing LAPD policy on dealing with PCP sustects that were non-compliant. The "deliver strikes until the suspect complies and remains prone or becomes unconscious and can be safely restrained without risk to the officers or public" was the standard policy by most CA departments for decades. That LAPD policy was changed after the Rodney King incident.

The CHP Officer, Melanie Singer (the female officer that was crying on the stand), testified that SHE felt the officers were on the scene were using excessive force... if you review the video, she had her GUN DRAWN and AIMED at Mr. King when the police arrived. It was Sergeant Koon, one of the officers that was eventually tried and convicted in federal court, that ordered her to holster her weapon and began attempting to take King into custody using mere verbal commands. Ironic that she was the only person on scene with her gun out and was the only person on scene that said she felt it was safe to stop the blows and that the repeated blows were not needed. What was she going to do if he got up and came toward her? Shoot him?

He was not responding to clear verbal commands, was rocking side to side in the car when instructed to exit the vehicle, turned around and shook his buttocks after exiting the vehicle and even stopped and waived at the police helicopter that was spotlighting him. He overcame 2 tazer volleys and ultimately threw 4 officers off him before they initiated the procedures for subduing a person that is suspected to be under the influence of PCP. If the officers were wrong in their application of force in that case, it was the policy was wrong. This is what was demonstrated in the state trial and were aquitted on the state charges as a result.

In the federal trial, they were not allowed to bring up the department policy. They were not allowed to show training videos that demonstrated exactly what the baton blows were delivered in accordance with the LAPD policy. They were not even allowed to present evidence or information pertaining to Mr. Kings violent past.

It is worth mentioning that there were 2 passengers in the car with Mr. King. Both of them happen to be black. Both of them complied with police instructions and were taken into custody without incident. That is something the public was never really told. If the allegations of racisim and abuse were true, why did the officers (and it is worth mentioning that one was hispanic) not have any conflict with King's compliant passengers?

Everyone saw the edited video and jumped on the bandwagon. The fact is, there was footage that was not shown in the news. In the footage that was shown, one officer is seen using his boot to push King's shoulder down as he was trying to get up. That particular use of force was used as one of the most damning examples of mistreatment in that case (it was also the only thing he did that was not in sync with the department policy). That officer had 2 options in his effort to try to get King to remain down on the ground, as he was being instructed to do: 1) continue the baton blows, which had been mostly ineffective, or 2) push him down with his boot and repeat his clear instructions to stay down. I think the push with the boot was likely the most humane thing he could do at that point.

Anyhow, the fact is, as far as I know, only police face what can only amount to "double jeopardy" as the "separate sovereigns exception" to the 5th amendment is not applied equally.
Hey, i totally agree with ya. I was just pointing out the fact that it's technically not double jeopardy. Whether or not it's fair, well that's another matter.

The OK City bombing came to my mind as well.

[}Dragon{]

Only a pussy beats a woman. :|

I'm not saying it's never appropriate to defend oneself (especially on duty for the LEOs here), but beating a woman?
GMAFB :|





Guess I'm old school :laughing

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by }Dragon{
Only a pussy beats a woman. :|

I'm not saying it's never appropriate to defend oneself (especially on duty for the LEOs here), but beating a woman?
GMAFB :|
Guess I'm old school :laughing
What ever happened to equality? Equal rights? You've come a long way baby?

Equal pay for equal work means a female bartender should be able to take the same asswhuppin' as a male bartender!! :laughing



Just kidding. :teeth

[dan p]

.

[JPM]

He has the same 8th Amendments rights as anyone else to bail. Now I don't know the whole story about this but if it’s as portrayed, he's a real dick.

[Dean129]

I heard about this incident. I wonder what provoked him? Either way he's a tool, I'm just saying.

[brichter]

He was drunk, she cut him off.

[Dean129]

Originally posted by brichter
He was drunk, she cut him off.

Gotcha........... :thumbup

[ianian28]

at least they didn't beat up a group of women, but still...


http://www.dailyherald.com/news/illinoisstory.asp?id=294901

[zombi]

Inside Edition reports tonight how Chicago PD made the extra effort to block & arrest reporters to prevent them from filming this douchebag soon-to-be-ex-cop at court today. What, what, what in the hell could those cops be thinking, to try to protect this guy like that. So that's a whole new aspect of this scandal. The Chicago PD Chief has already demoted the cops who arrested the reporters today...

[-Baker-]

wow ...I keep wanting an Officer to beat the shit out of me for no reason too. j/k

What an A HOLE of a cop! He'll move out to Cali and get hired as OJ simpsons body guard or work for crazed Brittany.

[RolnCode3]

And to add unnecessary drama and attention, you have the happenings at the courthouse today. :loser God help us.

[Traq]

The bystanders probably knew the guy was a cop...assuming this is his usual watering hole... And given what people have been saying about Chicago cops...would you knowingly jump in to restrain one of them? What if he pulled out his backup gun and plugged you? Or how about when his buddies arrive and see you with your hands on one of them and they plug you?

Yes, it's not fair, but I'd rather be thought of as a pussy on the internet than dead.

She should have started serving him nonalcoholic beers and called his buds to come get his ass...again, assuming she knew he was a cop...but hell, that'd be the smart thing to do to any drunk that becomes belligerent when you cut them off and you don't have a bunch of bouncers backing you up.

[ALANRIDER7]

It seems Chicago is one hell of a rough town.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/02/national/main2638110.shtml

[masameet]

That Chicago police chief is one fat cop.

[brichter]

Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
It seems Chicago is one hell of a rough town.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/02/national/main2638110.shtml

Seems some of their officers might need to stay off the sauce, too.:loco

[enki]

Sick a go police have been corrupt for fucking decades. Are you kidding? They went fucking looney tunes attacking the antiwar demonstrators in 68 at the Democratic convention. Complete and total breakdown in discipline. An investigation labeled it a "police riot."

CPD was Mayor Daley's private army. Those things don't change fast.

Few of those guys would get past POST.