Can I get a show of hands?

[Lazerus]

Okay, trivial as this may be, I am upset with walnut creek pd, and was hoping to get a group opinion on this one.

Buddy of mine decides to celebrate his birthday VIP at SPIN in walnut creek tonight. Turn out is ok. Everyone except my DD+SO has thier fill of alchohol. We all decide to call it a night after a fair number of dances, during which my lady is complaining about how her feet are killing her. We leave the club, she is still in pain, so I offer to carry her to her car (less than 200 ft crossing one intersection). She greatfully accepts the offer. We come to the intersection which is a flashing red light. (4 way stop) I pause at the curb as a red civic approaches from our left. The driver comes to a complete stop and waves us by. I check the remainder of the intersection. The only other car is a Walnut Creek PD car that is stopped on the far side of the intersection poised to cross the lane furthest from us.

As I proceed into the intersection, the patrol car cuts infront of us and stops, leaving us in the crosswalk in the middle of the intersection.

Enter LEO stage right. " If you hadn't been carrying her you would have seen me coming."

Me: Angry confused look

LEo: "Why don't you put her down before someone gets hurt"

Me: No longer confused just angry sets girl down.

Umm, dickhead, pedestrians have the right of way, and the only car that was an immediate threat to our safety as we approached the intersection not only gave us pause, but also waved us by. The only threat to safety in this encounter is you leaving us stranded in the middle of the street to flex your leo muscles. The group of people behind us had a similar reaction to us, that of anger and confusion. They said that he is a dick and that I was being "romantic"

Does anyone think that he was upholding the law? Personally I just see him as a power tripping douche bag. If I had been stumbling, or not paused as a result of his acceleration to intervene, I could see myself as a hazard to her well being.... but from my view, the only threat to us happened when we were stuck in the middle of the road so that he could push his weight around. Does anyone see this as upholding either the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

BTW, said party whom I was carrying is a CSO.

My opinion of LEO's has just sunk a peg.:(

[NorCalBusa]

One guy's an ass and that changes your opinion of all LEO's? Uhm, okay....I'm glad cagers don't make that assumption based on one motorcycle...Oh wait!

[Ironbutt]

Originally posted by Lazerus
I offer to carry her to her car (less than 200 ft crossing one intersection). She greatfully accepts the offer. We come to the intersection which is a flashing red light. (4 way stop) I pause at the curb

You broke the laws of Chilvary, you were supposed to throw your jacket down in the puddle next to the curb and let her walk across it.

[2nsane]

Napoleon complex (or Napoleon syndrome) is a colloquial term used to describe a type of inferiority complex suffered by people who are short. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. This can sometimes go as far as to lead to acts of violence or will to dominate those that are larger than the short person.

[motorman4life]

Based upon your account, it s clear you had the right of way, carrying someone or not. CSO, romantic, etc..l have absolutely nothing to do with it.

If your opinion of all LEOs was tainted by the actions of that one officer, you have issues I am not equipped to address. :confused

Should I judge all citizens on one bad contact with one idiot or asshole citizen? How about doctors? Should I judge all doctors based upon one bad interaction with one doctor, having a bad day? :hand

Get real.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by motorman4life
Based upon your account, it s clear you had the right of way, carrying someone or not. CSO, romantic, etc..l have absolutely nothing to do with it.

If your opinion of all LEOs was tainted by the actions of that one officer, you have issues I am not equipped to address. :confused

Should I judge all citizens on one bad contact with one idiot or asshole citizen?


It is more like the straw that broke the camels back. It is a culmination of such negative encounters over the course of my life, but I am long winded enough as it is :teethI didn't say that I absolutely despise leo's as a result, just that they are seeming less and less like role models in general. I know that stereotyping is bad, but to put it metaphorically:

You burn your hand on a pot that is on the stove, a month later, you burn your hand on another pot that is on the stove, and continue to do so for a number of years. You eventually come to the conclusion that

A: you are clumsy

B: most pots that are on the stove are hot

To further clarify, of the roughly 40 contacts I have had with leo's, both victim and criminal, about 5 of them were what I consider fair and just. I know the good ones are out there, just that they are fewer and further between than my previous opinion would have allowed for. I don't hold them in a lower regard than a citizen, but I no longer hold them in a higher regard either. It is my fault that I previously believed that the background screening, extensive training, and will to uphold the law would weed out the majority of knuckle heads. I hate to sound like a man being accused of racism, but, "some of my friends are LEO's'

[motorman4life]

Yes, most pots on the stove have a potential to be hot. If you practice a bit, you can actually learn how to pick up any pot without getting burned. If you keep getting burned.. like 35 out of 40 times, you are clumsy, at the very least. If you don't make an effort to learn from your mistakes and avoid being burned, don't expect the pot to keep you from getting burned.

Similarly, every contact with the police has the potential to go in the wrong direction, just like any contact with any person. If you make some effort, however slight, to try to make it a positive experince, you stand a much better chance of it being so. If you keep having bad experiences with a majority of the police you contact (like 35 out of 40), you have to consider that YOU may be contributing to the problem somehow. If you are the one that is an asshole, don't expect the cops to go out of their way or bend over backwards to look out for your feelings.

No doubt you have this misconception that the police have some special obligation to trip all overthemselves to kiss your ass and make you feel good. No, their job is to uphold the law while looking out for the safety of themselves and others. Sometimes you have to step on some toes to do that.

That said, I do make an effort to try to make my interactions with the public positive, whether I'm dealing with a victim, a witness, a suspect or a tourist asking for directions. Sometimes it requires me to go "above and beyond." But, once it is clear someone is not meeting me half way, I pretty much cut bait. My goal is to maintain or gain any possible advantage and I'm not going down the primrose path if it is clear I'm the only one trying to smell the flowers!

I deal with a lot of people on a daily basis. I try not to judge anyone on their worst day, but it seems the people that have never had a single bad interaction with the police or rarely have a problem with police, amazingly, seem to have absolutely no problem with me.. ever. It seems the people that usually have a problem with the police a majority of the time, usually have a problem with me. Do you think it is me? I don't.

If you have had 5 good encounters and 35 bad out of 40... you should really consider that you might be the one with the problem, not the individual officers you have had a problem with. If you are batting .145, who do you blame... the pitcher or the batter?

I'm not defending the WC Officer in this instance. But, if this guy is that much of a jerk and consistently dealing with citizen's in that way on a regular basis, you can bet he won't be an officer for long. You on the other hand, will probably still have a lifetime of bad encounters with police and will continue to blame them, regardless of who is truly the root of the problem.

Good luck with that. :thumbup

[HtChic]

Okay, from what I see, yup, that particular incident was a bad encounter.

However, 35 out of 40 bad encounters? Sorry, I've only had about 4 encounters with officers, and none of them would have been "negative" IMO. Granted, maybe a little silly (at least one of them), but MY attitude kept it from being a negative experience for me...sounds to me like you may be trying to grab all the pots around the middle rather than the handles.

[USARMworker]

:hand That cop was a dick.

[StuntrHuntr]

Originally posted by motorman4life
If you are the one that is an asshole, don't expect the cops to go out of their way or bend over backwards to look out for your feelings.

No doubt you have this misconception that the police have some special obligation to trip all overthemselves to kiss your ass and make you feel good. No, their job is to uphold the law while looking out for the safety of themselves and others. Sometimes you have to step on some toes to do that.Awww, man! I just wish I had some mojo for that post Motorman. Major motorman mojo to you! Mucho apreció a mi buen amigo. :applause

[JPM]

Just to play devil’s advocate here, read the B section of crosswalks right-of-way. The pedestrian does not always have the right of way.

Right-of-Way at Crosswalks
21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter.
(b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(c) The driver of a vehicle approaching a pedestrian within any marked or unmarked crosswalk shall exercise all due care and shall reduce the speed of the vehicle or take any other action relating to the operation of the vehicle as necessary to safeguard the safety of the pedestrian.

(d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.

[Lazerus]

In many of the negative encounters, as in this one, there have been unrelated passers by that witnessed the enteraction, and offered there view without prompting. every time, they have gone out of their way to tell me how badly the leo was acting.

To give an example of the length I will go to in order to help the interaction go smoothly....

Highway 160 near Isleton, I have been stuck behind a truck for several miles. A broken yellow comes, no oncoming triaffic, make my pass. Mid pass I see a sheriff parked opposite side of the road facing me. I wave after I return safely to my lane. As soon as I see that he is turning around to come get me, I pull over at the next safe place with enough room for both his vehicle and mine. Not even lit up yet. His first question to me "Why did you pull over?"

Because I saw you and I knew you saw me. It doesn't get much more cooperative than that. Additionally I am honest whenever dealing with leo's, and recount all events as accurately as I can. In my original post, I didn't say a word, just complied.... but yeah, im an asshole....

[Bad Santa]

Originally posted by Lazerus

To further clarify, of the roughly 40 contacts I have had with leo's, both victim and criminal, about 5 of them were what I consider fair and just.

I'm pretty sure I'm significantly older than you. Other than in a professional context, I haven't had anywhere near 40 contacts with LEOs in my entire life. Hell, I probably haven't had one-fifth that number, and every contact I have had (including before I became a LEO) was cordial and completely professional. In fact, I don't even know anyone who has had that many contacts with LEOs. (I'm talking personal associates, not the people I deal with professionally). Maybe all of my friends and family are just total squares. Or, maybe you should ask yourself what you are doing that is constantly resulting in negative interaction with law enforcement?:confused

Just a thought.

[Junkie]

Originally posted by JPM
Just to play devil’s advocate here, read the B section of crosswalks right-of-way. The pedestrian does not always have the right of way.

Right-of-Way at Crosswalks
21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter.
(b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(c) The driver of a vehicle approaching a pedestrian within any marked or unmarked crosswalk shall exercise all due care and shall reduce the speed of the vehicle or take any other action relating to the operation of the vehicle as necessary to safeguard the safety of the pedestrian.

(d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. true, but if there are stop signs it's pretty clear that the pedestrian isn't jumping out in front of cars.

[JPM]

Originally posted by Junkie
true, but if there are stop signs it's pretty clear that the pedestrian isn't jumping out in front of cars.

Needless to say I did not put my opinion out there otherwise I would have asked a lot more questions regarding the side of the street, direction of car, where it was when they stepped off the curb, level of intoxication or number of drinks consumed.
I merely point out that the pedestrian does not always have the right-of-way as some believe. I have had people walk right out in front of cars and then ask me why I did not stop them. I explain the law to them and tell them that they are the one I should be citing; hopefully they learn something.

I recently had a guy walk out in front of me at an intersection where I had a green light, hold his arm/hand out for me to stop, and walked right in front of my patrol car. He got a written copy of the appropriate Vehicle Code section for future reference.

[FrigginChi]

Thinking you have right of way can sometimes make you dead.

[NorCalBusa]

Originally posted by JPM
I recently had a guy walk out in front of me at an intersection where I had a green light, hold his arm/hand out for me to stop, and walked right in front of my patrol car. He got a written copy of the appropriate Vehicle Code section for future reference.

Uh-huh. I bet the REAL deal is you trying to figure out how to toe that thing up/down through the gears, wondering why it didn't slow down when you pulled that lever on the right side towards you...etc. And where was the heat control for the steering wheel?:mad

[}Dragon{]

Well, I don't have anything good to say about WCPD :|

I'd stop the both of you to check on her welfare... :)

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Lazerus
In many of the negative encounters, as in this one, there have been unrelated passers by that witnessed the enteraction, and offered there view without prompting. every time, they have gone out of their way to tell me how badly the leo was acting.

To give an example of the length I will go to in order to help the interaction go smoothly....

Highway 160 near Isleton, I have been stuck behind a truck for several miles. A broken yellow comes, no oncoming triaffic, make my pass. Mid pass I see a sheriff parked opposite side of the road facing me. I wave after I return safely to my lane. As soon as I see that he is turning around to come get me, I pull over at the next safe place with enough room for both his vehicle and mine. Not even lit up yet. His first question to me "Why did you pull over?"

Because I saw you and I knew you saw me. It doesn't get much more cooperative than that. Additionally I am honest whenever dealing with leo's, and recount all events as accurately as I can. In my original post, I didn't say a word, just complied.... but yeah, im an asshole....
Was that supposed to be an example of a BAD encounter or a GOOD encounter? If it was a bad encounter, then you left a lot of detail out. Or, do you consider it bad merely because you disagree with the reason for the stop? ..which wasn't even a stop, since you self-stopped and were subsequesntly contacted by the officer, who apparenly acted in a professional manner, since you neglected to mention any negative coments from the encounter. I missed the passers by part of it too.

BTW, just because you have passer's-by present that feel a contact or detention was unwaranted, does not mean it was not justified and lawful. Also, just becasue you have friends or by-standers that "side" with you does not mean an officer acted inappropriately.

I'll quit now, because I don't want to shater the illusion you have created to protect your ego as I know it makes you feel better to cast yourself as a "victim" of police misconduct in the 35 odd "bad" contacts you have had to "suffer." :laughing

[Bronto]

I key word 'Motorcycles' on Craiglist in Rants & Raves. Usually some argument going on about lanesharring or the Troll who wishes MC riders death. But happened on a series of posts about pedestrian right of way.
In SF a women threatened anyone who impeded her pedestrian right of way. By profession she said she was a lawyer and a new mother with an infant. She said if anyone hit her or her child while she was crossing the street. She'd sue them to the hilt and have them criminally charged.
She ranted on how she crosses the street when she gets there, no waiting. It's up to drivers to stop cause her right of way as a pedestrian. Her husband is a jogger should not have to stop for cars in the road. Without breaking stride he runs across the road, light or not.
She rants on about close calls while she takes a walk with the stroller. How dare drivers not stop as soon ass they see them. Goes on she has this right and warning you now your going to get sued.
I couldn't believe what I was reading. It also explained allot. There are people who are so arrogant and misinformed. Theres a marble or two missing about the physical World. You don't go pushing your baby and yourself infront of moving cars.
There was many respondents. Basically saying - She, her baby and husband are Roadkill. It's just a matter of time.

I noticed WC PD are making extra efforts in not stopping on red signal light to make right turns. Through the grape vine that pedestrian violations are being watch more closely.

How this all fits, there are some pedestrians that really need a life lesson. They missed the childhood lesson to look both ways and cross when safe. To replace that I'll walk across when I feel like it, it's others have to stop.
Plus WC PD increased pedestrian enforcement. Their seeing allot of screw ups all day. Better safe then sorry, save a few people might mean getting in everyones face.

[JPM]

Originally posted by NorCalBusa
Uh-huh. I bet the REAL deal is you trying to figure out how to toe that thing up/down through the gears, wondering why it didn't slow down when you pulled that lever on the right side towards you...etc. And where was the heat control for the steering wheel?:mad

Yeah, I kept looking for the button to lower my windshield that day. :laughing

[JackTheTripper]

Ya, I have to say if you pulled over before you were lit up the you started the situation on a bad foot. The law states if you are signaled to pull over you must. Not if you think a LEO is going to pull over you should. It makes you look guilty and personally, though I'm not a LEO, if you did that to me I'd think you were trying to hide something like maybe a drugs or a body in the trunk. "Look officer. I'm a good guy. I pulled over even before you lit me up. Please don't look in the trunk."

[edmo]

File a written complaint.

[nvp]

That guy sounds like as ass. It seems some LEO's forget they are just dealing with people, people living their lives.

He very well could have had a better perspective on what was dangerous at that time than you (you said you had been drinking.) But that doesn't mean he couldn't have handled it much differently.

Like, "Hey guys, we don't want you to get hurt... please put the girl down and wait for the light. And have a good night."

N

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by edmo
File a written complaint.

Let's assume there is another side to the story. Again, not defending the officer in this instance, but let's just assume that some guy that had been drinking, who was with others that had been drinking, and they all appear, to the average (sober) person to be intoxicated and "horsing around" on the street in the dark at night, in the dark, in and around traffic.

So, let me exercise a bit of artistic license and propose the officer's perspective may (possibly) go something like this... not in this particular situation, but a similar situation, involving other parties and on another town:

------------------------
Officer: I was driving along in the business district the other night and you wouldn't believe what happened... well, maybe you would.

I was heading to cover on a stop and was driving near the bars and it was late. I saw this group walking along and this clown was stumbling along with another drunk chick and he's trying to carry this other drunk chick on his back. Anyhow, I come up to the intersection and stop at the flashing 4-way stop.

So, I'm stopped and a red Civic is approaching and stops. The 3 drunk peds come up and I'm waiting for them to proceed, but the people in the car are waiving at the peds, so I figure they are waiving at each other or playing grab ass or whatever. So anyhow, I had waited and the peds aren't going, so, I go.

Then just as I start to go, the guy carring the girl steps out into the crosswalk without even looking. I slam on the brakes and I'm like Hey (Jackass), maybe if you weren't carrying the girl, you would have seen that stepping off like that with me approaching was a hazard. I was most of the way across the intersection before he entered the crosswalk, so I had the right of way.

So anyhow, he gives me the stink eye and I'm like, Why don't you put her down before someone gets hurt! It's like these idiots are clueless and don't realize that even in a crosswalk, you can't step off when it is unsafe. I mean, it's not like I hadn't waited. I got there before the red car, but he was so drunk, he probably didn't even see me until I was right on top of them.

Anyhow, he sets girl down. Now, if I hadn't been responding to cover [insert name] on his traffic stop, I probably would have dealt with it. But, I just told the guy to watch out and put the girl down... so get this.. he files a written complaint. You believe it? Damn, now I wish I had stopped and cited them, probably could have hooked one or more of them for 647(f) to boot.

Anyhow, you can bet the next time I'm downtown at night, I'm not cutting any slack. Fuck these assholes.. Yuppie fuckers... I give him a mild verbal warning and he fucking complains. What a cheese dick. You know what, no more fucking warnings. Jesus, I try to be a nice guy and look what it gets me!"

--------------------------


And, people wonder why cops don't give more warnings... because you might as well hold people to the letter of the law. They think that because you didn't cite them, you must not have had cause to warn them. Well, I can tell you this; In most cases, if a cop stops what they are doing to give you a warning, they could have cited you. The fact that they didn't, is not cause to believe the stop or contact was unwaranted.

Yeah, go file a complaint. :applause

[edmo]

Originally posted by motorman4life
Anyhow, you can bet the next time I'm downtown at night, I'm not cutting any slack. Fuck these assholes.. Yuppie fuckers... I give him a mild verbal warning and he fucking complains. What a cheese dick. You know what, no more fucking warnings. Jesus, I try to be a nice guy and look what it gets me!"

Yeah, go file a complaint. :applause

You said it better than I ever could have.

[RolnCode3]

Wish I had mojo.

MM4L, you are always more articulate than I could be! Worthy of your own smilie!

:mm4l

[StuntrHuntr]

Originally posted by motorman4life
And, people wonder why cops don't give more warnings... :hail :hail :mm4l :hail :hail
Dude, you are my hero.
Where can I buy some Mojo?

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by motorman4life
Was that supposed to be an example of a BAD encounter or a GOOD encounter? If it was a bad encounter, then you left a lot of detail out. Or, do you consider it bad merely because you disagree with the reason for the stop? ..which wasn't even a stop, since you self-stopped and were subsequesntly contacted by the officer, who apparenly acted in a professional manner, since you neglected to mention any negative coments from the encounter. I missed the passers by part of it too.

BTW, just because you have passer's-by present that feel a contact or detention was unwaranted, does not mean it was not justified and lawful. Also, just becasue you have friends or by-standers that "side" with you does not mean an officer acted inappropriately.

I'll quit now, because I don't want to shater the illusion you have created to protect your ego as I know it makes you feel better to cast yourself as a "victim" of police misconduct in the 35 odd "bad" contacts you have had to "suffer." :laughing


If you recall, in your previous post you implied that I am not putting in my end of the effort to make police interactions go smoothly. If you reread my post you will see that I prefaced that situation by saying "to show the lengths I will go to in order to help the interaction go smoothly.... blah blah blah"

But since you ask, it was a bad encounter. After telling him why I had pulled over, this is how the next blurb went

LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me: I think its 55

LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me:............. I think its 55

LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me: ................. 55

LEO: And how fast were you going?

Me: faster than 55, but I'm not sure how much faster. I had my head up looking for oncoming traffic and at you

LEO: I think we both know what you had your head up.

So then, what exactly is there to be garnered by belittling john q public? Unnecessary unproffessional insults do exactly what to help LEO's with their job? It seems to me more like catering to one's ego than my explanation of events was...

The bottom line is that I cannot convince you that what I am saying is true. The only way that I would be able to do that would be to go back in time and bring you with me to show you exactly what happened. The fact that officers reconstruct events in their mind is part of their job. However it is also (as it is in this case) one of the reasons that many of my interactions with leo's dont go well.

Due to the large volume of lies they are fed daily by citizens, it seems that leo's have to go with what they know to be true, and their gut. The problem occurs when the TRUTH that I am telling them conflicts with thier preconcieved notion of what happened. This particular problem has directly led to me being previously

* told "get on the fucking ground, I swear to god I will shoot you" at gun point by dublin pd

*forced to lay down in an oil puddle in a $100 outfit

*detained for 45 mintues in the back of a parked squad car with the window up during the summer

*accused by leo's of stealing and abandoning my own car

the list goes on

In response to an earlier comment of why I have had so many contacts with law enforcement

I have had my vehicles stolen/ broken into/ hit and run/ vandalized 14 times in my 7 years of driving experience. Some of these instances required more than one contact due to report updates, identity theft etc.

I have had 3 bicycles stolen

(all of the above mentioned vehicles/ bicycles were properly secured at the time of the incident)

I have been cited for riding a bicycle without a helmet while underage

I have been cited for violating park curfew

I have been contacted MULTIPLE times for simply playing basketball, football or just plain standing/walking around in a group. (typical pleasanton crime fighting)

I have been contacted for noise disturbances during the DAY (see above

I have been pulled over twice for speeding (once I pulled myself over, and no jackthetripper, I wasnt hiding anything, I was on my bike and the officer had a fairly direct line of sight to my location at all times.)

I have been pulled over once for driving a vehicle matching a description for some crime (see get on the fucking ground)

I have been pulled over for traveling below the speed limit through a light that had turned yellow.

I have been pulled over for making a right hand turn onto a street, then making three signaled lane changes to the left within the speed limit spending no less than five seconds in each lane.

I had two interviews with pleasanton PD after a friend of mine died while driving intoxicated. The officer trying to contact me left me 2 voice mails on my home phone while I was at work. First message

"(insert my name) this is detective (insert name). I need to speak with you regarding (insert deceased friends name).

next message

"(insert my name), this is detective (insert name). If you do not return my call (raises voice) I will come and find you.

MM4L, I'm not casting myself as a victim, I am explaining my reasoning for my opinion of leo's.... and explanation which you prompted by suggesting that I have issues and that I was basing my opinion on one occurance. I can understand why you feel the way that you do. Comaraderie between leo's is strong and it wouldn't make sense that an individual could truely have been on the short end of the stick so many times. It is logical that the common thread between all interactions regarding myself and leo's is ME, thusly leading to the logical conclusion that I am in someway insighting poor interaction. The fact that this line of thinking is logical doesn't make it true, only logical.

In regards to your rendition of the events that transpired this past friday, the group which I was a part of that evening was not walking with us, drunk or not. The only body language exchanged between myself and the driver of the civic was a pause, eye contact, and a wave to pass from the driver. The leo entered the intersection AFTER I had stepped off of the curb. I would have invited him to question us further, as it would have shown to me a genuine concern for the well being of my SO, and would have given him the chance to confirm that everything occuring was on the level. He did not take it "easy" on us because for chist's sake we were'nt doing anything wrong.

Edit: chick was not drunk, chick was not on my back, I am no more a clown than leo's are evil.

Why do I feel as though typing this reply was a waste of time?

[edmo]

I wasn't conceding my point. A lot of cops have anger (respect my authority!) issues as pointed out above. If you honestly feel that you're being mistreated, file a complaint. I don't think it's right for anyone to go around harassing good citizens.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Lazerus
But since you ask, it was a bad encounter. After telling him why I had pulled over, this is how the next blurb went...So, like I said, if it was bad, you left out a lot of details. Apparently I was right.. again.

So then, what exactly is there to be garnered by belittling john q public? Unnecessary unproffessional insults do
exactly what to help LEO's with their job? It seems to me more like catering to one's ego than my explanation of events was...If you take insult to everything, then everything will be an insult.

If I ask you what the speed limit is 3x, followed by asking you how fast you were going and the answer is going to be something above that... it is because I am trying to make a point. If you find that belittling, then that is on you. Some people get the point and move on. Some people are offended and hurt and carry that with them for years. You appear to be in the latter group. Why am I surprised?

I have had my vehicles stolen/ broken into/ hit and run/ vandalized 14 times in my 7 years of driving experience. Some of these instances required more than one contact due to report updates, identity theft etc. I have had 3 bicycles stolen.I would think someone that has been the victim of so much crime, would be more sympathetic to those out there trying to prevent crime. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking so?

In regards to your rendition of the events that transpired this past friday... I thought I had made it clear that I was exercising a bit of artistic license and proposing an officer's perspective in another situation involving other parties and in another town. Somehow that got past you.

Nowhere in your previous post did you mention that the LEO had entered the intersection AFTER you had stepped off of the curb. Or, did I miss it?

You wrote: "As I proceed into the intersection, the patrol car cuts infront of us and stops, leaving us in the crosswalk in the middle of the intersection."

How could the patrol car cut in front of you AS YOU PROCEED INTO THE INTERSECTION if you had entered/proceeded before the patrol car entered the intersection, passed through the intersection and was apparently exiting the intersection... unless he was on the same side of the street as you and you stepped into this path.. but then how did he cut you off? How did he block your path? How did he leave you stranded? Well, in any case... from your INITIAL description, it was clear you were saying he cut in front of you as you proceeded into the intersection. This means he had entered before you. Maybe you misspoke?

You say you would have invited him to question you all further, as it would have shown you a genuine concern for her well being.. but, you said you were giving him dirty looks and were also complying with his instructions. Once you put her down and she made no indication of being in distress, what further obligation do you see that he had to investigate further or escallate the contact to a detention? Besides, I would think with your batting average, you would want to avoid another strikeout! Are you saying here that you did not feel his concern was genuine enough and if he had been more convincing, then everything would have been okay and it would have been a "good" contact? Are you saying the officer is just a bad actor?

Why do I feel as though typing this reply was a waste of time? I don't know why you feel that way. Maybe you should examine those feelings further.
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dpa/lowres/dpan1038l.jpg

[Lazerus]

I do take insult to an officer implying that I have my head up my ass.
Yes, you "missed it"

You are also missing the point. I didnt originally post it as an example of a bad encounter, although it was. I originally posted it to illustrate the lengths I will go to in order to meet "halfway" with the officer, in reference to one of your previous posts.

you must have also missed in my original post that the leo was STOPPED on the opposite side of the street.

How did he get in front of us if he was stopped when I entered. Simply put, a car can move at a greater speed than a pedestrian, especially one whom is carrying someone. The road is 4 lanes wide with a center divide. Officer is in lane 2 of the traffic coming from the right side. A visual aid is badly needed here.

"Once you put her down and she made no indication of being in distress, what further obligation do you see that he had to investigate further or escallate the contact to a detention? "

I posted this in response to Dragon's take that he would stop us to check her welfare, and your "artistic recreation" wherein said officer let us off easy. I would guess that in a welfare check, at some point, the question "is she okay?" would have arrisen. It didn't. Do I think a detention was required? No. would it have shown me that he gave a rats ass about her welfare? probably. Would it have given him the opportunity to realize that his original contact was rude and ultimately not needed, definately. Instead it was more of a "High, im here to crash the party, although no illegal activities are taking place. Bye." I dont expect superhuman kindness, but just a touch of decency would be appreciated.

"I would think someone that has been the victim of so much crime, would be more sympathetic to those out there trying to prevent crime. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking so?"

If any of these had led to a single conviction, I just might have more sympathy. If a single print had EVER been pulled, again, I might have more sympathy.

In one case the dublin pd had my abandoned vehicle in custody for more than 4 hours. At the time of my arrival, 3 units were on scene. They had left the vehicle RUNNING and OVERHEATING (as a result of the abusive nature in which it had been driven) for the duration of the incident. I asked two leo's standing near the vehicle if any prints had been pulled. the answer I got

"they were probably wearing gloves"(I have gotten this response from EVERY and I mean EVERY leo that has taken a stolen/burgalarized/vandalized vehicle report from me)

They did, however explained to me that they had tossed the car for evidence, and found none....

However, a month later, as I was washing the vehicle, I found the mother f$%&$ing thieve's ID under my driver side floor mat!

I assume there is no evidence, therefore I check for none, therefore there is none. Way to fight that crime boys :teeth

There were many other negative interactions within this one incicdent, but in the interest of saving time, I will withhold them. Suffice it to say that this form of behavior and professionallism does not inspire sympathy.

The reason it is a waste of time to type

A: it is falling on deaf ears

B: it turned into a rant in an attempt to explain previous comments that had been misconstrued. I wanted to see if I was performing an act deserving of officer presence by a show of hands. some cast their vote, some knit picked my wording, one (mm4l) did both.

Additionally, qualifying insults by prefacing them as mythical doesn't make them any less insulting, regardless of what measures are gone to in attempt to justify them as fictional. It simply further proves my point that leo's feel that its perfectly acceptable for them to insult people, and that furthermore it does nothing to aid in resolving a situation.

Thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion, however contrary I may find it. I believe that the differences in our experiences involving law enforcement have, and will continue to prevent us from seeing eye to eye.

[Nozzle]

I have had a handful of encounters with the police, and they weren't pleasant either. Majority of them had a preconceived notion of what events took place, and their thoughts were blind to the actual facts.

I believe that's what a "sterotype" is, where they've seen too many of the same things... and when you "see" something similiar, you assume that's what happened again.

I understand why they happened though. Cops are very human, and they have feelings, emotions, and a vast knowledge-base of past events. However, I believe they also need to carry the strength to see each and every occurances objectively as they are the upholder of justice.

It's unreasonable to deny cops of human errors, but they also need to accept that fact and be more open.

My rants aside, from reading this whole thread, I think MM4L's posts/positions were too strong from the start. No disrespect to you or the police force whatsoever though. I actually was considering being one myself. :)

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Lazerus
I do take insult to an officer implying that I have my head up my ass.
Yes, you "missed it"

Implying.... if I say you have your head up your ass, that is either an insult or a fact. If you take an officer's statement such as, "Why don't you put her down before someone gets hurt?" as an insult, then frankly, the problem is with you. Same as the "Do you know what the speed limit is?" x3. It is a method to try to get people to think, that don't appear to be using good judgement. Pointing out one fact and driving it home... often (not always) gets a reaction similar to, "Doooohhh." or "Oh, I wasn't thinking!" Just becasue the response from you was the "stink eye" and putting her down, does not change the fact that THE OFFICER felt you were not using good judgement.

As for the dynamics of your contact and proximity to the police car... if you need a diagram to illustrate a point, then create one. I read what you wrote... that the patrol car had pulled in front of you and stopped AS YOU ENTERED the intersection. I'm not making this shit up. Go re-read your post! You had not entered, then you entered. Before you entered, he must have entered, because he had apparently stopped in your path AS YOU entered.. thereby blocking your path.

It is not worth trying to debate the facts if you are going to revise them as we go along. We won't see eye-to-eye because you insist on steretyping police officers and continue to demand they don't steretype you. That was the point of my initial post (below).

If you think the rest of the world is crazy.. maybe it is you that is the crazy one. You have 35 bad contacts out of 40... we all are to believe 5 contacts were good beacuse you bent over backwards and 35 were bad because the cops did not meet you 1/2 way.

Funny, I can have 40 to 80 citizen contacts in a day.. all good. In the rare instance that I have a bad contact, it is because the other guy is DETERMINED that they want it to go badly... and sure enough, they have about the same record as you.. mostly bad contacts with the police. Hmmm... do you think that is a coincidence?

The fact is, you apparently have a lifetime of hard times ahead of you.. it is a good thing you have a convienient scapegoat for your troubles. Yes, everytime you get in trouble with the law, have a bad experience with the cops or get screwed over, it is the fault of... (drumroll please) The Police. Like I said previously, you are determined to be a victim and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Congrats.

No doubt that as a bit too harsh for Nozzle... :wow

Originally posted by Nozzle
...I believe that's what a "sterotype" is, where they've seen too many of the same things... and when you "see" something similiar, you assume that's what happened again.

..I think MM4L's posts/positions were too strong from the start.
I love when people claim they are stereotyped by all police. I mean, you gotta see the irony in that, don't you?

For the record.. in the "start" this is what I wrote..
"Based upon your account, it s clear you had the right of way, carrying someone or not. CSO, romantic, etc.. have absolutely nothing to do with it.

If your opinion of all LEOs was tainted by the actions of that one officer, you have issues I am not equipped to address.

Should I judge all citizens on one bad contact with one idiot or asshole citizen? How about doctors? Should I judge all doctors based upon one bad interaction with one doctor, having a bad day?

Get real."

Do you feel that was "too strong" an opinion to express here in BARF? I thought I was being mild. It seems to me that I was making the same statement as you; against stereotyping. Did you miss that? Should I have been more sensitive? Maybe I could have said it in a way that was more emotionally ambiguious? Should I have been more supportive of his inner child? :angel

We're all adults here. Get a grip.

[RolnCode3]

http://www.pashnit.com/forum/images/smilies/group-hug2.gif

[Lazerus]

Since you have missed it not once, but TWICE now, allow me to assist you. Here comes the spoon! I'll even capitalize the insult to better help you.

"LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me: I think its 55

LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me:............. I think its 55

LEO: Whats the speed limit on this road?

Me: ................. 55

LEO: And how fast were you going?

Me: faster than 55, but I'm not sure how much faster. I had my head up looking for oncoming traffic and at you

LEO:I THINK WE BOTH KNOW WHAT YOU HAD YOUR HEAD UP."


Did you catch it now? surely you have, so here's your chance to downplay it!

And I invite you to, by quote, illustrate ONE point in which my story has been revised. The truth needs no revision in the telling officer.

[Nozzle]

Originally posted by motorman4life I love when people claim they are stereotyped by all police. I mean, you gotta see the irony in that, don't you?
I never claimed that I was stereotyped by all police. I said I had a handful of experiences, and majority of them were where I was clearly not at fault, but the cops had a preconceived notion of what took place and acted based on that. They could have been following protocol to the letter, but to a "victim", it sure seemed unfair and my words fell on deaf ears.
For the record.. in the "start" this is what I wrote..

Do you feel that was "too strong" an opinion to express here in BARF? I thought I was being mild. It seems to me that I was making the same statement as you; against stereotyping. Did you miss that? Should I have been more sensitive? Maybe I could have said it in a way that was more emotionally ambiguious? Should I have been more supportive of his inner child? :angel

We're all adults here. Get a grip. [/B]
I think the consistent problem for you is that you tend to generalize too much and post accordingly. As you claim, your post is probably mild for an online forum where anonymity usually gets better of common courtesy; maybe it's my own stereotype that I expect LEOs (and a moderator) to display extreme calm and fairness. :)

Sure, you agreed that Lazerus had the right of way, but you went out of your way to post about how if his opinions of LEOs are now different (without knowing what exactly happened), maybe you should think all civilians are assholes and move on.

THAT, was what I had in mind when I said you were too strong from the start. You could have easily said "Dang, why would you say your opinions of LEOs went down a rung?" or even just left it at If your opinion of all LEOs was tainted by the actions of that one officer, you have issues I am not equipped to address. even though I still think that was too strong.

All Lazerus was posting was about this single incident, and then a general statement about his state of mind based on a long history that he did not care to elaborate.

I understand from reading many of your posts that you are logical, provide very insightful information, post tons of great things, and somewhat sarcastic. :) Tons of people find it funny, and I do sometimes too. I was merely pointing out how this thread might have 'blown up' based on your comments that I personally thought was too strong. By all means though, keep up the good work.

As you said, we are all grown-ups here and hope you don't find offense to anything I said. :blush

[XM23]

Originally posted by motorman4life

I would think someone that has been the victim of so much crime, would be more sympathetic to those out there trying to prevent crime. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking so?
In my experience, cops rarely prevent crime. They seem to have two purposes: revenue generation, and taking useless reports that very rarely result in crimes being actually solved. Sometimes they get lucky, but not often.

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by XM23
In my experience, cops rarely prevent crime. They seem to have two purposes: revenue generation, and taking useless reports that very rarely result in crimes being actually solved. Sometimes they get lucky, but not often. You gotta' be kidding.

If you want to find out how much crime was prevented, give all the PDs, SO, and CHP the night off, for just one County. Publicize it. See what happens.

[Lazerus]

XM23 is talking about actions taken by LEO's and RolnCode3
is talking about the presence of law enforcement. Way different trains of thought.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
You gotta' be kidding.

If you want to find out how much crime was prevented, give all the PDs, SO, and CHP the night off, for just one County. Publicize it. See what happens.

Well, it wasn't a day off, but I bet it would look similar:

http://www.atwitsend.org/LA%20Riots.jpg

[XM23]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
You gotta' be kidding.

If you want to find out how much crime was prevented, give all the PDs, SO, and CHP the night off, for just one County. Publicize it. See what happens.
You're probably right... With today's pussified culture, the sheep would probably be easy prey for the wolves.

This wasn't always the case, however. There was a time when people accepted personal responsibility for their own protection instead of delegating it to a professional police force who even the Supreme Court says has no legal responsibility to protect anyone.

Case in point: the Korean shop owners in LA during the Rodney King riots after the cops cut and ran.

[JPM]

And there was a day that people also accepted personal responsibility for their own actions and respected other and the property of others. There is a reason why there are directions on shampoo and toothpaste. If there were no asshats or idiots in the world there would be no need for laws or the police; so lay the blame where it belongs.

[Var]

i'd say about 1 out of 3 encounters with LEO's goes well. Regardless if i get a ticket or not. Just 2 weeks ago a CHP pulled me over on 92 and gave me a fix-it ticket. it was great encounter. Other times i've been let go, and it was horrible. Cops are people, and most people are douchebags, and therefore most cops are douchebags.

[motorman4life]

Maybe I should set up a poll.
Would you rather come away from a traffic stop feeling good but with a ticket or feeling like shit, but with a warning?

You aren't the first person I've heard of that were stopped, got a warning and still thought the contact did not go well.

I've found, if I'm having a bad day and I happen to "go off" on someone, for whatever reason, I ordinarily DON'T give them a ticket. So essentially, they get an ass chewing and get sent on their way.

I would think most people would prefer that. Maybe I'm wrong. :confused

[silverbelt]

Originally posted by XM23
In my experience, cops rarely prevent crime. They seem to have two purposes: revenue generation, and taking useless reports that very rarely result in crimes being actually solved. Sometimes they get lucky, but not often.

:wtf

Dude, do you have any friends, relatives, etc who work in law enforcement? I can't believe your ignorance. Unreal.

[Var]

Originally posted by motorman4life
Maybe I should set up a poll.
Would you rather come away from a traffic stop feeling good but with a ticket or feeling like shit, but with a warning?

You aren't the first person I've heard of that were stopped, got a warning and still thought the contact did not go well.

I've found, if I'm having a bad day and I happen to "go off" on someone, for whatever reason, I ordinarily DON'T give them a ticket. So essentially, they get an ass chewing and get sent on their way.

I would think most people would prefer that. Maybe I'm wrong. :confused
no you're absolutely right . strictly speaking about professionalism though..1 out of 3.

[silverbelt]

MM4L, I've been chewed out by the cops by acting like a stupid squid, even after that, I still get ticketed sometimes. Traffic stops are not personal and I never view them as positive or negative. I look at it as a cop doing his job.

Now of course, I would much rather preferred to be stopped by you MM4L and get chewed off and then let off with a warning :laughing

[Nozzle]

Considering all bases, I would definitely prefer ending out with a warning and feeling like crap at the end of an ordeal than getting a ticket. Sure I'll most likely vent about the encounter to anyone who'd listen, but I'll still manage a thumbs-up and thank him/her for letting me off the hook.

On the other hand, I've gotten a ticket 100% of the times I've been pulled over (four out of four, with only two of them being my fault... and the legal system that totally screwed me over which I won't elaborate now), so I don't really know what it feels like to walk off with a warning.

Maybe if I was a hot girl, I'd have better luck... :)

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Var
no you're absolutely right . strictly speaking about professionalism though..1 out of 3.
So, while you consider it to be unprofessional for an officer to chew you out and give you a warning in lieu of a ticket, you would still prefer the warning, right?

Maybe if s/he chewed you out in such a way that it was still professional? I mean, I'm just trying to find a happy medium here. :teeth How about if it was a hawt female officer chewing you out, would that be acceptable? ;)

[XM23]

Originally posted by silverbelt
:wtf

Dude, do you have any friends, relatives, etc who work in law enforcement? I can't believe your ignorance. Unreal.
Nope, no friends or relative in law enforcement. I do, however, have quite a few friends and relatives who have been victims of crimes. And in none of these cases was a cop in a position to "prevent" the crime. They came later (sometimes hours later) to take a report. I can't remember any of these crimes ever being solved, either.

[RolnCode3]

Originally posted by XM23
Nope, no friends or relative in law enforcement. I do, however, have quite a few friends and relatives who have been victims of crimes. And in none of these cases was a cop in a position to "prevent" the crime. They came later (sometimes hours later) to take a report. I can't remember any of these crimes ever being solved, either.
I thought about what you had written before.

Most people think of the patrol officer and parking enforcement, especially when they start talking about revenue generation...

But what they don't think of (and those of us in LE do) are assignments such as:

Robbery Detectives
Homicide Detectives
Sex Assault Units
SWAT
Air details (helos/planes)
K9 officers
School Resource Officers

There's no such thing as a 'pre-crime' unit, so except for the "we caught bag guy so he can't commit more crimes", there's no way to stop a crime before it happens. Depending on what crime your friends were victims of, there is (unfortunately) a time where we have to be realistic...

Most big cities can't respond to every crime that's reported. Not enough officers...too many higher priority crimes. If you're robbed at gunpoint, there's about a 100% chance you'll get an officer. You get punched, it might take a little longer... Property crimes...well, those can now be submitted online in some jurisdictions.

That's realism.

[XM23]

Originally posted by RolnCode3

There's no such thing as a 'pre-crime' unit, so except for the "we caught bag guy so he can't commit more crimes",
This is the key. We don't put the scumbags away long enough to keep them out of circulation long enough to make a difference and not long enough to act as an effective deterrent.

The Three Strikes and You're Out law was a good start--now we need Three Strikes and You're Dead. Nothing does a better job of keeping a criminal off the streets than snuffing them. Never happen in California, though--too many bleeding hearts.

[nakedape]

XM23, you are one angry fellow. I've been both beaten by cops for being a tool, and saved by them (later in life) for keeping my cool.

You're "dead" wrong about "snuffing them". Most hardened, violent criminals don't give a shit about death; it behooves them to go out like that. Didn't you read the thread about the LBPD?

I've been pulled a few times and ticketed about half the time. On a bike, if you have the M1 endorsement and aren't acting the fool/tool, many cops who ride will give you a pass. The likelihood of this diminishes according to your resistance to, or contempt for, their lawful authority.

When you get zen about the whole, "oh shit, I'm getting pulled over", the situation AUTOMATICALLY de-escalates, in your favor. Just pretend it's your favorite uncle reminding you not to kill yourself before Easter brunch.

If you want to deter crime get out there and make a difference, be it CYA, volunteering, or god forbid, teaching little ones (AKA, "shorties").

All of my students who are "registered" gang members seem to have, in general, caring parents who are hard working, but don't have the time to keep the kid in line. It's not like if you can't beat 'em join 'em, more like, if you care so fucking much, be proactive and do something about it.

I speak from experience too. Been hosed by local PD, been saved by local sheriff, been schooled by my SRO. You just have to go with the flow, you know?..NApe

[brichter]

Originally posted by XM23
This is the key. We don't put the scumbags away long enough to keep them out of circulation long enough to make a difference and not long enough to act as an effective deterrent.


And exactly how is this the fault of LEOs? Blame your bleeding-heart politicians who are more interested in criminal's rights than in victim's rights.

[motorman4life]

^^^^ +1 ^^^^
:thumbup



We put them away and the judges/lawmakers let them out. How is that our fault? :wow

[Var]

Originally posted by motorman4life
So, while you consider it to be unprofessional for an officer to chew you out and give you a warning in lieu of a ticket, you would still prefer the warning, right?

Maybe if s/he chewed you out in such a way that it was still professional? I mean, I'm just trying to find a happy medium here. :teeth How about if it was a hawt female officer chewing you out, would that be acceptable? ;)

foster city has a new recruit. 21 yr old super fine little hottie. she pulled me over in a car with expired reg and tried to chew me out. but she was so goddamn hot that I couldn't help flirting with her and since she was a rookie she couldn't really help but smile and respond in a friendly manner. I think the 3 of us in the car rose to the occasion.


I know its hard to find a happy medium but it seems like 1 out of 3 LEO's have figured it out. MM4L it's not fair arguing with u cause u have most stuff figured out and if most LEO's showed half the intelligence that u have it would be all good

[motorman4life]

.... gotcha!

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/198/439/3071007-post.jpg.jpg

[XM23]

Originally posted by motorman4life

We put them away and the judges/lawmakers let them out. How is that our fault? :wow
If you go back and read my post you'll see I said "we" don't put them away long enough. "We" as in society. I never said anything about LEOs not putting them away.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by motorman4life
.... gotcha!

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/198/439/3071007-post.jpg.jpg


well well well, look who made a large contribution to the community!:thumbup