Smoker gets pulled over in front of me

[DESMOnic]

Last week, I was waiting on the red light on the Saratoga/Stevens creek Intersection when the CHP in front of turned on his loud speaker and started talking to the driver who was in the front of him.

I could not really understand what he was saying as I had my helmet on and from all the bike noises, but it sounded like he was telling the driver to keep the hand with a cigarette inside the car.
Finally he said "I think we gonna have to talk about this" and as soon as the light turned green he turned his lights on and pulled him over.

Anyway, I am not a smoker but was still wondering if someone can get a ticket for keeping a hand with a cigarette outside the car?

[motorman4life]

I woulda just followed him and waited for the butt to hit the ground. :teeth Call me sneaky, but it never fails that they toss their butts on the street. I stop them and sure as shit, they have change in their ashtray! :finger

BTW, fair warning, I cite for the misdemeanor H&S violation as it carries a much stiffer fine and a minimum of 8 hours of community service! Boo-ya! Nothing like 8 hours of picking up trash on the freeway to put littering into perspective! :thumbup

CA H&S 13002. (a) Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor who throws or discharges any lighted or nonlighted cigarette, cigar, match, or any flaming or glowing substance, or any substance or thing which may cause a fire upon any highway, including any portion of the right-of-way of any highway, upon any sidewalk, or upon any public or private property. This subdivision does not restrict a private owner in the use of his or her own private property, unless the placing, depositing, or dumping of the waste matter on the property creates a public health and safety hazard, a public nuisance, or a fire hazard, as determined by a local health department, local fire department or fire district, or the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, in which case this section applies.

(b) Every person convicted of a violation of this section shall be
punished by a mandatory fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) upon a first conviction, by a mandatory fine of not less than five hundred dollars ($500) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) upon a second conviction, and by a mandatory fine of not less than seven hundred fifty dollars ($750) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) upon a third or subsequent conviction.

The court may, in addition to the fine imposed upon a conviction,
require as a condition of probation, in addition to any other condition, that any person convicted of a violation of this section pick up litter at a time and place within the jurisdiction of the court for not less than eight hours.

[goflynn]

I seem to remember that you are not allowed extend any object beyond the Width of your vehicle side mirrors. So no lumbar , steel pipes or for that matter arms. The fact that the person was doing this with a cigarette in their hand may have just aggravated the cop enough to pull them over. Not sure where I learned this , traffic school or a dream.

[goflynn]

Ooooh beaten to the post. motorman4life , so you cleared that up for me. I seem to remember the cop that told me my facts was wearing suspenders and pumps so it musta been a dream .

[altomista]

:applause to that LEO.

I hate it when people toss cigarette embers and whatnot out of their windows. I've been hit in the face with embers and it hurts almost as much as little pebbles hitting your face.

[Bronto]

Let me check .........
Yup this is California :D

It's a cult.

[NorCalBusa]

As a rule, smokers are the most obnoxious group around. They toss that shit out when they unwrap the box, when they light up, ashes when they smoke and the butts go when they are done. How many have seen a freakin ashtray emptied on the road while stopped at a red light? I have, many times. You have my permission to Taser 'em...for being a public nuisance.

I think police PA systems should be banned. Plugs, helmet or not- no one can understand SHIT they are saying! The LEO thinks people can though, so they get aggravated when their directions aren't followed...

[kiltwearinfool]

I'm all for an individual's right to kill themself slowly, but my empathy stops the moment they flick that butt. I've had too many ashes in my eyes to not care.

Thanks, MM4L.

[Noid]

I can't stand smoker who throw thier shit out the window, people who park in the handicap spaces, and people that tow in the wrong lanes.

I have been so temped to get out and pick up the cigerate butt and throw it back in to thier car.

[kiltwearinfool]

I usually swap it with a firecracker before tossing it back in.

[NorCalBusa]

I'm okay with folks towing in the "wrong" lane- as long as they are boogying with traffic and have control of the trailer and aren't whipping it around, barely able to keep it in their lane.

[JackTheTripper]

Originally posted by goflynn
I seem to remember that you are not allowed extend any object beyond the Width of your vehicle side mirrors. So no lumbar , steel pipes or for that matter arms. The fact that the person was doing this with a cigarette in their hand may have just aggravated the cop enough to pull them over. Not sure where I learned this , traffic school or a dream.

I thought it was different depending on the side of the car.

i.e. right can't extend past the mirror, right can be no more than x (18???) inches past the mirror, or vice versa.

Can anyone confirm? Thanks.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by NorCalBusa
I think police PA systems should be banned. Plugs, helmet or not- no one can understand SHIT they are saying! The LEO thinks people can though, so they get aggravated when their directions aren't followed...

Apparently others disagree....

Originally posted by fundgh
I would have hoped the cops would get on their little loud speaker and say "Turn on you lights" They sat there at the intersection and watched me make the mistake. WTF! Why not just prevent the simple mistake rather than capitalizing on it. Sure they wanted to run my plates, check my sobriety, whatever. But they could instantly tell I was legit. No need to bust my balls.

The fact is, some PA's are better that others. Most drivers are in such a cocoon of safety, they have their own atmosphere and everyting... like little planets or moons. It is not surprising they don't hear horns, PA, sirens... you name it. But, if you have a vehicle with the window down, such as this case, the driver should be able to hear what is said. Granted, some PA's are scratchy or overmodulated. But, the PA is your best shot at getting anything resembling a warning.. if I have to stop you, you are going to get my full attention and I'm likely going to walk away with an autograph.

As you can see above, that guy was saying he felt the PA should have been used to warn him regarding his headlamps out. Instead, he got a ticket. You would rather get cited than have an officer tell you to turn on your headlamps? Well, apparently so.. you want the PA banned. Gotcha! :thumbup

I guess you can't please everyone. Next time a cop tells you to do something on a PA, flip him off and take the ticket like a man.

[Bronto]

You autta feel better to know cigarette butts are biodegradable.
Those pure of body hypocrites are guilty of their fair share of litter. More then their fair share of pollutants far worse then a leaf burning.
Righteous brainwashed cult fascist sheep. :finger

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/198/809/3062544-sywht.jpg

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by JackTheTripper
I thought it was different depending on the side of the car.

i.e. right can't extend past the mirror, right can be no more than x (18???) inches past the mirror, or vice versa.

Can anyone confirm? Thanks.
CVC 35111: No passenger vehicle shall be operated on any highway with any load carried thereon extending beyond the line of the fenders on its left side or more than six inches beyond the line of the fenders on its right side.

22111 CVC is another section that could be used. That would be "improper hand signal."
All required signals given by hand and arm shall be given from the left side of a vehicle in the following manner:

CVC 22111(a) Left turn--hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the vehicle.
(b) Right turn--hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the vehicle, except that a bicyclist may extend the right hand and arm horizontally to the right side of the bicycle.
(c) Stop or sudden decrease of speed signal--hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the vehicle.

If you are holding your arm up w/ the elbow on the window sill, it could resemble a right turn signal. If you were holding it out to straight, a left turn and hanging the arm down, signals slowing or stopping. If you happen to be smoking, it does not prevent your positioning to be mistaken for hand signals. If those signals are in conflict with your movements, then they are improper.
GO TO THIS SITE FOR HANDSIGNAL PICS (http://wzus.ask.com/r?t=p&d=up&s=iw&c=a&l=dir&o=10358&sv=0a300526&ip=188fea92&id=E4DD21B9B21958D7859E74EDD946EBB7&q=six+inches+beyond+the+fenders+on+the+right+side+ california&p=1&qs=1&ac=2&g=3491iHwzbXb8cm&en=te&io=0&ep=&eo=&b=alg&bc=&br=&tp=d&ec=10&pt=California%20Driver%20Handbook%20-%20Laws%20and%20Rules%20of%20the%20Road%20-%20Signaling%2C%20...&ex=&url=&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmv.ca.gov%2Fpubs%2Fhdbk%2Fpgs3 1thru32.htm)

Here is the pic from the CA driver's handbook for a stop signal... I added the smoke. :teeth

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/198/809/3062561-stop.gif

[RolnCode3]

Someone called to complain to my supervisor because I told him (over the PA) that if he ran another stop sign I would cite him (had better things to do).

That's why I don't say anything over the PA. You get the ticket now.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by Bronto
You autta feel better to know cigarette butts are biodegradable.
Those pure of body hypocrites are guilty of their fair share of litter. More then their fair share of pollutants far worse then a leaf burning.
Righteous brainwashed cult fascist sheep.
Actually, I believe the filters are plastic based compressed fiber (cellulose acetate), not a natural fiber. I'm not tre-hugger, but the published estimates on decomposition puts them at 10 to 15 years. So, besides the fire danger and the litter, it is also leeching acetate into the ground water. Yummm..

I want to get bumperstickers made:
Hey Jerkoff, the world is not your ashtray!

[tran_man]

I think that 13002 H&S section is reserved for the a**hole who gives you lip and the 23111 VC section is reserved for the average smoker who doesn't know any better.

Just curious, when would you use the H&S section over that VC section? I just learned of that H&S section after reading this thread, please enlighten me. :hail

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by tran_man
I think that 13002 H&S section is reserved for the a**hole who gives you lip and the 23111 VC section is reserved for the average smoker who doesn't know any better.

Just curious, when would you use the H&S section over that VC section? I just learned of that H&S section after reading this thread, please enlighten me. :hail When they give lip.. or whenever it is clear they would benefit from 8+ hours of community service. ;)

For the record... I don't believe for a second that ANY smoker doesn't know any better. It's not a matter of knowing better, it's a matter of DOING better.

I have absolutely no sympathy. None. :finger

[ALANRIDER7]

Here's a big :finger to the assholes who dump their ashtrays out on the ground in supermarket parking lots.

Fucking idiots.

[Bronto]

After pinching off the burning paper end of the cigarette. Stepping on the ash to put it out. Then put the butt in a pant pocket.
Emptying out a car of trash, butts or anything else is just a litterer.

Somehow doesn't get the same uproar about people throwing out fast food or deli packaging or disposable diapers out the window.

New age prohibition by goody two shoes.:finger

[JPM]

Originally posted by Bronto
Somehow doesn't get the same uproar about people throwing out fast food or deli packaging or disposable diapers out the window.

New age prohibition by goody two shoes.:finger

Usually these things don't start fires. But when seen, they get the same attention. Cited one just last week.

[nakedape]

One of the reasons I dislike my paternal grandma is she dumped her over-full ashtray in the driveway at our house once when I was little and is was like WTF?

My dad quickly cleaned it up and probably didn't say anything. Same lady that never sent us cards when birthdays came around and is so cheap she moved to mexico and wonders why we don't trek down there to see her...NApe

[Bronto]

We have a few relatives same way. There's a degree of self centeredness that's really harms family relationships. Givers, takers and the self absorbed.

Sorta back on topic.

Heh yeah it's cigarettes now. But Donuts can't be far behind :x

Understand disgarded cigarette butts are litter and potential fire hazard.

I don't drink coffee, alcohol and can live without a cell phone. They should be illegal. :laughing

[trekuk]

Is this aggressiveness really about littering or smoking?

I certainly don't think the ecology/environmental argument is anything but a lame excuse, any serious look at how the average American pollutes in terms of waste, energy consumption etc. will quickly conclude that most people better shut the fuck up unless they are Amish. Picking on cigarette butts is fine, it's perfectly fine to dislike that, but covering it up in an environmental agenda does nothing but reveal a rather pedestrian intellect.

At least be fair about, as MM4L and JPM are, having stated that it's one of their pet peeves, clearly aware of that it has little if anything to do with safety or other traditional policing goals. Honestly I don't care much for it, since the motivation is personal and while a popular opinion, it certainly appears an irrelevant and misguided use of sparse policing resources. It does not help if the LEOs lashes on with the cites and deliberately if not maliciously selects the infractions that could shifts the violation close to DUI land in terms of sentencing (community service etc). I don't think I'm the only one who would expect the LEOs to do their enforcement and citation with primary regard to overall safety and interest of the general public, and potentially dishing out a little extra to those displaying a flagrant lack of basic courtesy and manners, not their personal pet peeves, regardless of what the VC warrants. The slope becomes very slippery if there are too many unpredictable pet-peeves harshly enforced on the LEO side. I want to stress very strongly that this paragraph is founded more on principle rather than practicality. I think it's wrong from a philosophical and principal point of view, but I am certainly not completely unwilling to accept such actions from a practical standpoint when done in moderation. However, as an example, giving someone a hefty fine and 8 hours community service for nothing more than letting a little ash fly out the window with no one at risk, is going far overboard, way beyond a personal irritation of smoking, and it will only serve to undermine the role of LE in the long run. Authority is far better when reinforced through trust and respect, not just standing on its own.

Throwing burning butts out without checking mirrors for traffic, especially bikes, or doing so in an area of fire hazard, is another thing altogether. In certain circumstances that surely warrants some action due to the obvious consequences to the general public far beyond litter and annoying certain individuals. I've gotten a few cigarette butts in my chest while riding, I can't understand why it did not occur to the offender to look in the mirror first. Unless exceptionally unlucky, no harm is done by the cigarette (only littering), much unlike some of the stuff that (almost) flies off the unsecured bed of certain pick-up trucks.

[motorman4life]

Originally posted by trekuk
Is this aggressiveness really about littering or smoking? I don't have a problem with smoking or smokers. I don't smoke but I don't begrudge those that do. I see littering as being a symptom of a much larger problem, an attitude and a serious lack of respect for the community.

No doubt, those that think littered butts do not cause fires frequently, would be quite surprised to find out the number of tragic fires caused by same. Even if the fire is relatively small and contained, it still requires a full code-3 response, causing additional risks to the community (besides the fire itself).

There are fires in the Altamont area of 580 and 5 every Summer. All of these start of the shouder with no one around... what do you think causes those fires? In 21 years, I've personally seen more fires started by butts than arson and fireworks combined. Believe it or not.

What kind of fucing asshole dumps an ashtray out on the street? Just the thought of it pisses me off.

As for use of resources.. well, guess what, not every officer is working on a homicide. Resources are distributed accross a wide spectrum of services and the LEOs out on the street are expected to take action on "the little things" between DUIs and bank robberies.

I don't know if you have heard of the "broken window approach" to policing but, it is a theory that if you let things like broken windows, stripped cars and graffitti go.. ignore it, you will see an overall rise in crime. If you take action on these relatively minor "quality of life" issues that aren't in-and-of-themselves a threat to life and limb, you will see an overall reduction in crime.. serious crimes; rape, murder, robbery. This concept has been proven again and again in numerous studies. It is all part of a cause-and-effect cycle that may fly in the face of logic, but it is a fact that if you clean up a neighborhood, it changes attitudes and behaviors.

Do you generally "feel" safer in a neighborhood that has graffitti, litter, broken glass, broken windows and stripped cars? Do you thnk people may act differently and show a different level of respect toward that community vs. a clean community with none of the above? Why do people throw a bottle down on the curb in a ghetto and not so much in an Danville or Hillsborough? :confused

[SpeedyCorky]

if i were rich i swear i'd give $10 to every officer that issued a ticket to anyone who dumped shit out of their car. i was driving along one day and seriously saw this guy dumping MASSIVE ammounts of crap out his window, a big empty bag of chips, cig buts, cig packs, dipers, you name it... i couldnt beleive what i was seeing as i looked on with disguest. at then end of it all, i couldnt really decide what was worse: dumping said shit out the window, or attempting to clean your car at 65mph :wow


:thumbup MM4L !

[wazzuFreddo]

nothing pisses me off more than getting hit by someones discarded butt while riding on the freeway.

[XM23]

I once had a burning cigarette thrown out of the car in front of me wedge under my wiper blade and melt it. Had to replace it.

Too bad cops can't charge these assholes with attempted arson instead of littering.

[Trogdor]

So is the H+S section a bookable misdemeanor? Or do you just cite without requiring booking.

And yeah, smokers as a whole tend to think their butts just aren't trash. That attitude just kills me. BTW, the VC section for throwing a cigarette out has no point on your license.

[Lorry]

Originally posted by RolnCode3
Someone called to complain to my supervisor because I told him (over the PA) that if he ran another stop sign I would cite him (had better things to do).

That's why I don't say anything over the PA. You get the ticket now.

OMG, the guy must have been a complete tosser. You'd think he'd be relieved to get a warning rather than a ticket.

[}Dragon{]

Originally posted by motorman4life
There are fires in the Altamont area of 580 and 5 every Summer. All of these start of the shouder with no one around... what do you think causes those fires? In 21 years, I've personally seen more fires started by butts than arson and fireworks combined. Believe it or not.

There are a lot of causes other than just cigarette butts... The trains that wind thru the backside of the Altamont are the worse.

[Junkie]

Originally posted by motorman4life
CVC 35111: No passenger vehicle shall be operated on any highway with any load carried thereon extending beyond the line of the fenders on its left side or more than six inches beyond the line of the fenders on its right side.

22111 CVC is another section that could be used. That would be "improper hand signal."
All required signals given by hand and arm shall be given from the left side of a vehicle in the following manner:

CVC 22111(a) Left turn--hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the vehicle.
(b) Right turn--hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the vehicle, except that a bicyclist may extend the right hand and arm horizontally to the right side of the bicycle.
(c) Stop or sudden decrease of speed signal--hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the vehicle.

If you are holding your arm up w/ the elbow on the window sill, it could resemble a right turn signal. If you were holding it out to straight, a left turn and hanging the arm down, signals slowing or stopping. If you happen to be smoking, it does not prevent your positioning to be mistaken for hand signals. If those signals are in conflict with your movements, then they are improper.
GO TO THIS SITE FOR HANDSIGNAL PICS (http://wzus.ask.com/r?t=p&d=up&s=iw&c=a&l=dir&o=10358&sv=0a300526&ip=188fea92&id=E4DD21B9B21958D7859E74EDD946EBB7&q=six+inches+beyond+the+fenders+on+the+right+side+ california&p=1&qs=1&ac=2&g=3491iHwzbXb8cm&en=te&io=0&ep=&eo=&b=alg&bc=&br=&tp=d&ec=10&pt=California%20Driver%20Handbook%20-%20Laws%20and%20Rules%20of%20the%20Road%20-%20Signaling%2C%20...&ex=&url=&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmv.ca.gov%2Fpubs%2Fhdbk%2Fpgs3 1thru32.htm)

Here is the pic from the CA driver's handbook for a stop signal... I added the smoke. :teeth

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/198/809/3062561-stop.gif wow, so I'm at risk for a ticket if I drive along with my elbow out the window? I know I see the cops around here do it all the time, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a ticket risk. I understand that actually having my hand out the window is a different story.

[Bronto]

Seen drivers in new or extra pricey cars throwing bags and cups out. Guess they don't want trash cluttering up their car.
Seen car full of tiny boppers. Tossing every bit of fast food packaging out the window over a mile stretch in grid lock.
Roach Coach dumping gray water on freeway.
Class A motorhome with Texas plates dumping holding tanks in a parking lot.
Dumping yard waste and household appliances when no one is looking.
BARF Rider hit by disgarded Burrito (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159459&highlight=hit+by+burrito)

Just what I've seen, Those Smokers sure are busy.

[VTRweasel]

Originally posted by NorCalBusa
As a rule, smokers are the most obnoxious group around. They toss that shit out when they unwrap the box, when they light up, ashes when they smoke and the butts go when they are done. How many have seen a freakin ashtray emptied on the road while stopped at a red light? I have, many times. You have my permission to Taser 'em...for being a public nuisance.


Nice generalization, I smoke, I never litter my butts unregardless of where I am. When I go camping I even pick up other people butts (I know how that sounds :twofinger)

And I always pack out more trash then I've brought in.


Originally posted by wazzuFreddo
nothing pisses me off more than getting hit by someones discarded butt while riding on the freeway.


It's better then the beer can I got hit with on the freeway once :rolleyes

[JackTheTripper]

Well I missed you with the bottle, all I had left was the can.

[VTRweasel]

:laughing bitch :twofinger

[trekuk]

Originally posted by motorman4life
As for use of resources.. well, guess what, not every officer is working on a homicide. Resources are distributed accross a wide spectrum of services and the LEOs out on the street are expected to take action on "the little things" between DUIs and bank robberies.

I don't know if you have heard of the "broken window approach" to policing but, it is a theory that if you let things like broken windows, stripped cars and graffitti go.. ignore it, you will see an overall rise in crime.

Good informative reply as always!

I appreciate the broken window philosophy, and it's certainly clear that mere police presence and writing a ticket has ramifications beyond the specific offender at the time.

My main point was that LEOs are entrusted with significant latitude in their work, and that can be abused. For example, should you, again just an example, hate coffee with a passion, you could easily stalk any Starbucks and as soon someone takes a sip behind the wheel, you could throw the book on them hard. Most of us violate some part of the VC practically all the time when there are no cops around, and I'm sure a good portion only checks their mirror on special occasions, so with your experience and creativity your pen would probably run out of ink on your first cite if you wanted to. Name any pet peeve, and I'm sure there are infinite possibilities for a LEO who takes it upon himself to "correct" this problem "the hard way", probably well within the relevant codes and regulations most of the time as well. Except of course race, religion, sex, origin and the other official no-no's, any bias on that high-profile minefield better not be obvious. Smoking and littering from smoking appears to be on the opposite side of the scale, it's politically correct to openly detest. But if we condone the enforcement of which to be biased and driven by personal dislikes, we must also allow that for all other whims and random preferences, and that will not necessarily end up well. There are certainly been incidents where questionable (perceived as such at least) behavior by LEOs drives a wedge between them and the parts of the population, not completely unlike the broken window approach as a principle.

I would expect you to be fair, honest and unbiased when you stop me for speeding, and I would certainly accept no significant deviation from your norm if the offence was littering from smoking. Dig up the obscure VC/HS violations with harsher consequences because I'm acting like an ass or did something rather serious (or not at all), and certainly not because of your personal view on smoking. There are enough assholes out there, you LEOs please stay on the high road. ;) I did read your post, so the you-form here is simply to illustrate the point, not at all meant to discredit your stated position or pretend to represent even the slightest insight into how you perform your duties, MM4L.


That being said.. I do have a lengthy list of my own pet peeves that I would like see enforced forcefully and without mercy. :laughing

[czarb]

Originally posted by MM4L I don't know if you have heard of the "broken window approach" to policing but, it is a theory that if you let things like broken windows, stripped cars and graffitti go.. ignore it, you will see an overall rise in crime.

See attached article to see how bad San Francisco is becoming....http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/02/BAG04OVS8K1.DTL&hw=broken+glass&sn=006&sc=314

[DESMOnic]

Well, since SF PD is too busy to work on petty crimes, they should give more freedom to their citizens to defend their own property. So, when couple of assholes get shot for trying to steal your $100 radio, the message will be clear and the crime rate will go down.

Oh, we are talking about SF? Nevermind. :x





Originally posted by czarb
See attached article to see how bad San Francisco is becoming....http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/02/BAG04OVS8K1.DTL&hw=broken+glass&sn=006&sc=314

[mnb]

Gotta love it when you're riding along, shield up to get wind in your face and some cager flicks their ash out the window and you get a barely burning coal in your face...


NOT!

[Bronto]

In SF on Geary Blvd. Riding a Bicycle on the Sidewalk heading East. In Japantown noticed the small chunks of safety glass on sidewalk. It was from passenger window of a parked sedan. Next block I see two women standing near a car. They were obviously upset and animated. I see the car had it's passenger window broken.
I continue riding and notice two more cars with busted windows. Safety glass all over the place.
When I was nearing the built up area of the Business District on Geary. Rolling along downhill. Two guys hovering around a car ahead. As I passed they looked like panhandlers. I stopped at the next intersection and watched what they were up to.
They were looking around all the time and saw me watching. So I turned the corner to mostly out of site and watched again. Their still checking everyone on the sidewalk for hundreds feet around. They kept moving between standing by a wall and standing near the car. Did this several times. The area was busy with pedestrians everywhere. I left figuring they were the ones who are doing the break ins.
From what I hear you can break a safety glass window using a spring loaded center punch. These things are the size of a felt pen.
So two guys broke in four cars and working on their fifth. All in a mile of parked cars on one city street.