Cold tires?

[Zangief]

Hey folks, I've lurked on on this forum for a while but never posted before. I've been riding on and off (mostly on) for three years, my current ride is a very pretty '94 CBR 600 F2.

I crashed my CBR a couple months ago just after leaving my apt on the way to work, and was hoping to get some input from you all.

About a block from home, just after pulling out of the driveway, I rolled up to a stop sign to make a right. I was turning from a sidestreet onto a divided four lane rd (Orange st. onto Harrison St. northbound in Oakland). There were a few cars approaching from my left, about a half block away. It was one of those situations where it was a close judgement call, at least for me: I could have either turned immediately without dallying, or I could have just stopped and waited 30 seconds for the traffic to pass. I chose to roll through the stop (I was almost stopped, definitely under 5mph) and make my turn in front of the approaching traffic.

I countersteered hard and leaned the bike into the right hander, and hit the gas. Almost immediately, I felt the rear tire break free and start spinning. The rear end swung out wide and the bike leaned really far to the right. Next thing I know, the rear end hooks up, and the bike stands up and high sides.

I don't really remember what my control inputs were after the rear tire broke loose. My best guess is that, at the point where my tire was spinning and I was leaned hard right, facing diagonal with respect to the roadway, I chopped the throttle. This would explain why the rear hooked up again, and the rest is just physics. But as it always does, it happened really fast, and I guess I just reacted by reflex.

The car behind me had plenty of time to brake and stop behind me. I'm pretty sure I gave the guy a good show.

I had checked my tire pressure within a week of the crash, and my tires are only about 50% worn.

As far as conditions, there were a few things that were not ideal. The road was banked gently to the outside of my turn. It was a bit dusty. And I was turning over a crosswalk made from fabric-based lane lines and the fabric had started to peel off the road. However, I can't reasonaby say that any of these conditions were major factors in my crash. I had been riding through this corner at least a few times a week for several months.

I think the single biggest factor was that I hit the gas too hard. I had been riding the CBR for about six months and was starting to feel really confident with my countersteering and wrangling the bike through low speed turns. I think I just got ahead of myself.

Question 1: how much of an impact does tire temperature have in this kind of a sitation? The tires were dead cold, I had only ridden a block before I crashed. But I had always felt really confident in the tires. I don't do wheelies or nor do I ride very aggressively, but I've never done anything that had made the rear tire spin before. Plus this is not a liter bike, it's a 600cc.

Question 2: how does one train their reflexes to react properly to an incident like this? Obviously it would have been best to not lose control in the first place. But I think that a really skilled rider could have recovered after the rear tire started spinning: I should have stayed on the throttle long enough to let the bike straighten out and stand up more gently, instead of chopping the throttle and causing it to grab the road and high side. But it's not like I can go and practice this kind of maneuver very easily. At the same time, saying "I don't know what happened, it was all reflex" makes me paint myself as not really being in control of the situation. That's bullsh*t, if I'm going to ride a motorbike I need to be doing everything in my power to be in control of the situation and not make stupid excuses.

As always I was wearing my helmet, high-viz 1 piece aerostich, gloves and boots, so I didn't get scratched up at all. I was going so slow that I basically landed right next to the bike, too. But I put my left wrist out to break my fall when the bike flipped over to the left side, and broke my wrist. I definitely didn't put out my wrist intentionally, it was just another reflex, I guess. Another reflex that I would really like to learn to overcome, cause fingers and wrists are never going to break the fall of a 180lb rider thrown from a 450lb bike.

I also need to make a shout out to Hillary, the BMW rider I flagged down on Harrison who very graciously rode my bike the block or two back to my parking spot. My wrist was hurting way too much to work the clutch.

My wrist is healing and I got back on my bike yesterday for the first time in two months. Just want to make sure I learn everything possible from my errors in this incident. Any input appreciated.

[Z3n]

Answer 1:

Massive amounts. Depending, of course, on the tire compound. Dead cold tires suck.

Answer 2:

Dirt riding. Get out there, train good habits, rewire your survival reactions that cause things like chopping the throttle, etc. There's also the harder way, which is trying to rewire them on the street. Much easier to do it in the dirt.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Z3n
Answer 1:

Massive amounts. Depending, of course, on the tire compound. Dead cold tires suck.

I disagree. If we are going to pull out the 'cold tires' card, then we are going to have to acknowledge that after a block of riding, damn near every tire is going to be cold and provide poor traction (compared to its ability when 'warm'.

While it is possible that there was something on the road that added to the loss of traction, you simply used the wrong combination of throttle and lean angle. By your own admission:

Originally posted by Zangief
It was one of those situations where it was a close judgment call, at least for me: I could have either turned immediately without dallying, or I could have just stopped and waited 30 seconds for the traffic to pass. I chose to roll through the stop (I was almost stopped, definitely under 5mph) and make my turn in front of the approaching traffic.

I counter steered hard and leaned the bike into the right hander, and hit the gas.

As riders, we need should be smooth with our control input. This is important everywhere, but especially on the street where conditions change rapidly.

[GhostRider]

honestly, i do not worship the god of tire warmers... ;)

i would rather look into other factors:
- how old are your tires? anything over 18 months goes automatically in the bin for me)

- do you have "super hard" compound "touring tires". touring tires go on touring bikes, which dont lean. on any of my bikes, i only ride "high performance track tires". (Pilot Powers)

- how's your air pressure?? check, check, check again.

- was any dew/moisture on the road?

- THROTTLE CONTROL!



cold tires..... na, i realy dont think they have such a big impact. after all, this is caliFORNIA. (ok, little italian play with words here)


so, if i was you..... i'd chuck the tires and get new ones, just for peace of mind!

[Z3n]

Originally posted by Enchanter
I disagree. If we are going to pull out the 'cold tires' card, then we are going to have to acknowledge that after a block of riding, damn near every tire is going to be cold and provide poor traction (compared to its ability when 'warm'.

Sorry, i should have specified that better...some tires perform remarkably better when cold than others. In my experience, when cold, race H2's are downright squirrelly, but i don't have any similar issues with the Z6's on the CBR at the moment. In fact, one of the things that impressed me the most about the Z6's was the immediate amount of grip even in shitty conditions, for example, the cold night i test rode the bike. I hear it's something about the silica rich compound or something along those lines...increases water dispersion and cold tire performance. Of course, i was riding a different bike with the H2's, blah blah blah, so it may be apples/oranges i'm comparing.

You are right though, every set of tires will still be dead cold after a block. That wasn't what i was getting at. It's just that when some are still cold they provide some traction, whereas others provide little to no traction. The end thing here is: Cold tires suck. Don't push anything on them.

As riders, we need should be smooth with our control input. This is important everywhere, but especially on the street where conditions change rapidly.

Exactly. The smoothness is key.

[plambert]

I'm a newbie, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but why do tires have anything to do with it? If your bike has enough torque and you twist throttle hard enough in a lean, won't that naturally cause the back to break free? Isn't this what the SM guys are trying to do when they turn?

[Z3n]

Originally posted by plambert
I'm a newbie, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but why do tires have anything to do with it? If your bike has enough torque and you twist throttle hard enough in a lean, won't that naturally cause the back to break free? Isn't this what the SM guys are trying to do when they turn?

Because most of the time, you want to maintain traction. Given that your tires are what give you your traction points to spend as you see fit (lean angle, thrust, braking). It may naturally break the back end loose, but that's not something you really want happening. The SM guys have a variety of ways of breaking the back end loose....from engine braking to powering out.

[Zangief]

The tire pressure and wear are both OK, but the tires are pretty old. Dunno exactly how old, I bought the bike used last year and I can only assume they've been on there for some number of years. I don't even know what brand/model the tires are, I just make sure they've got air in them. I'll consider replacing them.

The reason I'm asking about this is because I don't feel like I hit the throttle any harder than I have hit it at other times in the past. It's an obvious thing to say, but I didn't think I was hitting it hard enough to make the tire break free. It was, in fact, quite a surprise. So, while I take full accountability for f&(king up, I was wondering if the cold tires could have played some role in the bike behaving in an unexpected way.

[silverbelt]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss cold tires as a contributing factor.

More times than I can count, I've seen riders dump their bikes coming down 84 towards woodside after "chiilin" at STP for 30 minutes.

There are a couple corners at the top that you need to take slow and not lean the bike over too far on cold tires.

Alot of riders don't understand just how quickly tires get cold if stationary for even a short period of time.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by Zangief
The tire pressure and wear are both OK, but the tires are pretty old. Dunno exactly how old, I bought the bike used last year and I can only assume they've been on there for some number of years. I don't even know what brand/model the tires are, I just make sure they've got air in them. I'll consider replacing them.

The reason I'm asking about this is because I don't feel like I hit the throttle any harder than I have hit it at other times in the past. It's an obvious thing to say, but I didn't think I was hitting it hard enough to make the tire break free. It was, in fact, quite a surprise. So, while I take full accountability for f&(king up, I was wondering if the cold tires could have played some role in the bike behaving in an unexpected way.

Yes, they did. Learn to read the numbers on the sidewalls of the tires, i can't recall exactly what they layout is, but there should be a small place on the side of the tire with 4 numbers in it...i believe it's weeks/year produced. If they're more than 5 years old, replace them.

The only thing i wanted to be sure on there was that you were aware you did something that caused the accident, be it too much throttle, too little throttle after too much throttle, etc. etc. The important thing is to learn from the accident.

Cold tires is a def. contributing factor...as with auto accidents, it's always a combination of events. Little too much throttle, + cold tires not gripping well, + old tires, + crappy road conditions...any one of those not occuring could have prevented the accident. As long as you're learning from it, even if it's something as basic as "don't get on the gas too hard on cold tires" it's worthwhile.

[Enchanter]

Saying cold tires contributed to this crash is oversimplification.

Zangief, please understand that I'm not trying to single you out, or pick on you....

As riders we need to lower our risks by riding within 3 limits. We need to ride within three limits. We must ride within our limits, we must ride within the limits of the motorcycle, and we must ride within the limits of the environment. Only then are we able to lower the risks. In this circumstance, all three limits were exceeded at once.

The lessons that I take away from your experience is this:

Do not take unnecessary chances. Don't ride in a manner that could be looked at (even in retrospect) as a "close judgment call". Life is more valuable than the "30 seconds" you saved.

Don't be over confidant in my abilities.

Six months is not enough time to become one with a motorcycle.

In high risk environments, err on the side of caution rather than relying on the comfort misread as 'skill'.

In my opinion, the temperature of the tires played less than 1/1000th of a percent in the cause of the crash you experienced. Thousands of riders all over the globe seem able to ride crash free without expending thoughts on tire temperature.

If someone is riding on the street, in a manner that tire temperature is a primary factor is whether they crash or not, they are riding too close to the limits listed above.

[JPM]

I have to say that over throttle was probably the cause of this; cold tires do not really come into play at city street speeds. If cold tires cause you to go down I would be falling all over the place. How often to you see a police motor sitting on the side of the road for ½ and hour then have to take off? I have gone from the bike sitting all night and jumping on and going code 3 scraping the pegs in the turns with no problems.

Learn from your errors and practice. Learn smooth acceleration and when not to over torque it especially when there are questionable surfaces (Possible sand, ect).

[Zangief]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Yeah, I know that the real cause of this crash was me. In fact, when people have asked me what happened, well... first I say "I was just riding down the street and all of a sudden this HUUUUUUUUUGE squirrel jumped into the road." Then I tell them that, actually, that's crap, and that I crashed cause I made a mistake. It does seem like a real challenge, though, to learn the limits of myself, my bike OR my environment while riding on the street. There's not a whole lot of room for errors in that environment, and when something goes wrong, it goes wrong FAST.

[nweaver]

One other thing, was the rear tire on pavement marking? That stuff is realy low friction compared to asphault.

[wsmc831]

something on the pavement.

I rode an F2 for 9 years and 'cold tire' thing doesn't hold water at all. F2 motors don't have enough torque to worry about that stuff unless you were reving the hell out of it. Only 2 times in 9 years, 42k miles and 3 years racing did I get the rear tire spinning like that, and it had nothing to do with cold tires, and they're not exactly warm on a march morning at 8 am in the desert.

cold tires is just the answer everyone comes up with when they can't figure out what really happened, course, some people still think tire makers still use mold realease so it takes a while for people's understanding of things to change.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by wsmc831
something on the pavement.

I rode an F2 for 9 years and 'cold tire' thing doesn't hold water at all. F2 motors don't have enough torque to worry about that stuff unless you were reving the hell out of it. Only 2 times in 9 years, 42k miles and 3 years racing did I get the rear tire spinning like that, and it had nothing to do with cold tires, and they're not exactly warm on a march morning at 8 am in the desert.

cold tires is just the answer everyone comes up with when they can't figure out what really happened, course, some people still think tire makers still use mold realease so it takes a while for people's understanding of things to change.

I'd have to say it depends on how hard you get on gas while leaned over. As a newer rider, it's very easy to have harsh inputs that can upset the chassis more than a more experienced rider would in a similar situation.

For example, getting hard on the brakes, and then tipping it in and smacking the throttle open to get away from the car coming seems that it could easily cause the back end to step out. I haven't had any incidents with back end drift, but i've certainly pushed the front on cold tires, or perhaps the OP's tires that are so old they're basically toast from sitting...

[wsmc831]

I would look at tire pressure before thinking cold tires. And, as a 22 year old on my first sportbike, I was far from experienced and never managed any 'cold tire' slides. F2's are set up so well to ride fast easily I just have to think it was something else, especially since street tires are even better cold than race tires, and they have an amazing amount of grip, even cold.

but, we'll probably never know exactly what happened in this case, and props to the OP for realizing that no matter what it was, it's still the rider that has to judge conditions.

oh, and my slides were in rain on paint and oil on the rear tire, other than that, they had more grip than all but the best can explore.

anyway, cheers :-)

[Z3n]

Originally posted by wsmc831
I would look at tire pressure before thinking cold tires. And, as a 22 year old on my first sportbike, I was far from experienced and never managed any 'cold tire' slides. F2's are set up so well to ride fast easily I just have to think it was something else, especially since street tires are even better cold than race tires, and they have an amazing amount of grip, even cold.

but, we'll probably never know exactly what happened in this case, and props to the OP for realizing that no matter what it was, it's still the rider that has to judge conditions.

oh, and my slides were in rain on paint and oil on the rear tire, other than that, they had more grip than all but the best can explore.

anyway, cheers :-)

I've only ridden one F2, and not for an extended period of time, but it was on utterly crap tires, so perhaps i'm biased. :laughing

Tire pressure is another point that's def worth checking out...as well as crap on the road. I've just had too many slides on cold tires to count cold tires out. I've been lucky enough to save the vast majority of them.

The other thing to be aware of is braking at the limits on cold tires, as it's very easy to overbrake in a panic situation. If you expect them to brake like they're warm, you're often in for a suprise, especially when combined with any sort of evasive anything. (Obviously, you shouldn't be braking and swerving at the same time, but things get muddled when you're in a panic situation)

[spddrcr]

im not posting this to upset anyone or try to start a flame war but i truly believe cold tires and gravel are an urban myth. dont get me wrong, sure if theres a foot of gravel on the road you have a good chance of going down but most times people say they crashed or layed down a bike due to cold tire or gravel its usually because they were either going to fast for the conditions or attempting to do something they shouldnt be doing. a couple years ago a bunch of people had an accident out by the karting place in fairfield when they left there at the end of an event at night. so out of the 60 or so people that showed up that night for the bike night 5 or 6 people went down. those people went to their respective forums and complained about crashing their bikes due to the gravel being on the road. well i saw 3 of the accidents and me and a couple other people were telling people to slow down due to the gravel but the three i saw go down decided that they should either:
A: Gun it to the stop sign and look cool
or
B: try some squidley move such as burnouts or wheelies.
again im not saying the original poster did any of the above, but ive been riding half my life, (im 33) an di have never once slipped or even swerved in gravel and never had an incident on cold tires.
just something to think about.

[Holeshot]

Zangeif, actually Plambert's dead on here: you added lean angle and lots of throttle at the same time, being on the smallest part of the tire. Yes, a warm tire will spin there as well.

It wasn't the cold tires, it was adding lean angle and too much throttle at the same time.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by spddrcr
im not posting this to upset anyone or try to start a flame war but i truly believe cold tires and gravel are an urban myth. dont get me wrong, sure if theres a foot of gravel on the road you have a good chance of going down but most times people say they crashed or layed down a bike due to cold tire or gravel its usually because they were either going to fast for the conditions or attempting to do something they shouldnt be doing. a couple years ago a bunch of people had an accident out by the karting place in fairfield when they left there at the end of an event at night. so out of the 60 or so people that showed up that night for the bike night 5 or 6 people went down. those people went to their respective forums and complained about crashing their bikes due to the gravel being on the road. well i saw 3 of the accidents and me and a couple other people were telling people to slow down due to the gravel but the three i saw go down decided that they should either:
A: Gun it to the stop sign and look cool
or
B: try some squidley move such as burnouts or wheelies.
again im not saying the original poster did any of the above, but ive been riding half my life, (im 33) an di have never once slipped or even swerved in gravel and never had an incident on cold tires.
just something to think about.

I've done my fair share of slides on gravel. This however, has as much to do with my riding style and speed i choose to ride as anything else. Yesterday i was riding Mt. Hamilton with a friend of mine, and i had the front end slide about a foot on some dirt/gravel/what have you in the road...now, i'm comfortable with the idea of the bike sliding around when it does, i didn't do anything stupid as a result of it sliding (chopping the throttle, grabbing the brakes) and the bike slid, regained traction, and that was it. I was probably going about 5-10mph over the speed limit.

I think that the core of the issue is that some of the people who choose to ride faster on the roads don't understand the mechanics of the bike sliding, and the correct way to respond to it. I know that when i started riding, i caused a highside because i got the rear tire spinning coming out of a corner and then chopped the throttle.

I think rider inexperience or ignorance has more to do with the majority of crashes than anything else...after all, you see good riders/racers regularly save things that seem "unsavable".

Not pointing figures here, just my thoughts :)

[Zangief]

My bike's got Dunlop D208s that are about 5 years old judging by the date code. That's not why I crashed, but I'm going to get new tires soon regardless.

[Phinneas Flatbo]

I'll bet he was on the rear brake.

[Enchanter]

Originally posted by Phinneas Flatbo
I'll bet he was on the rear brake.
I don't think that was the case. Here is a quote from the original post:
Originally posted by Zangief

I countersteered hard and leaned the bike into the right hander, and hit the gas. Almost immediately, I felt the rear tire break free and start spinning. The rear end swung out wide and the bike leaned really far to the right. Next thing I know, the rear end hooks up, and the bike stands up and high sides.

[Zangief]

Um, no. I wasn't braking at all when I lost control, I was accelerating from a stop into a right-hander.

[slydrite]

1) was Hillary hawt?

2) can you post a pic of Hillary?