Turning from an upright position?

[DucatiHoney]

I've only had three bikes. The first two were/are a sporty/standard position. My most recent acquisition is a very aggressive position. I'm comfortable riding with clip-ons. I don't have back trouble. I like this position, even on the street and find I can hold it for several hours without discomfort. It maximizes my control. This makes me happy.

What I've noticed is that if I'm riding a bike that's strictly a standard position (like a stock Ducati Monster, for instance) I have trouble turning. I think this is less of an issue with the bike than it is with me. The riding position is possibly highlighting some flaw or weakness in my personal riding style.

Anyone else have this problem? Any recommendations or observations about what I might be doing wrong?

T.I.A.

[ntula]

i prefer kitty style, but

like the shoe that fits.. comfort

what do you mean by trouble turning? does it feel not very stable? the rake can make a difference as well in how the bike handles.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76



standards have more trail, so balancing the bike at lower speeds or on winding roads may feel generally sluggish and clumsy if you are used to a sport bike.

with the monster i notice that after i put on clip ons the bike was easier to handle at low speeds, but a little unbalanced at high speeds.. a steering damper would cure this.

when you get on the standard with your aggressive tendencies, experience, and expectations, it seems off and unbalanced?

experience the same when i got a monster from riding aggro rockets, got used to it, then when i put clip-ons it felt off again, when i put the adjustable rearsets on, it felt right again... i made it ultra aggressive... as far as comfort, i can do a few hours on it without breaks... because i am used to the postion.

i found the rearsets on the stock monsters did not make for a very responsive position. puts you in more of a dining positon...

so if i am reading this right, you got another bike, a standard, that feels awkward. maybe it is not you and you are expecting it to handle a certain way when the bike was simply not intended to be riden like that.

try riding a harley...

my :2cents

hope that helps.

[MrCrash]

Is your torso fairly vertical when you're riding a stock Monster? I'm wondering if the position of your torso puts you in an awkward position to countersteer effectively and efficiently.

I don't think it's a flaw or a weakness in your riding style, but rather an element of your riding style - preference and familiarity of the bar position. I couldn't turn Jamie Hacking's R1 to save myself, as his clipons are very straight when compared to most stock bars.

[ntula]

adjusting the pre-load made a big difference as well. not all monsters or others permit that.

[Baptistro]

May sound really simple, but make sure you've got your elbows bent and your weight off your hands. If this is a problem when you ride the monster, it will make a world of difference.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
What I've noticed is that if I'm riding a bike that's strictly a standard position (like a stock Ducati Monster, for instance) I have trouble turning. I think this is less of an issue with the bike than it is with me. The riding position is possibly highlighting some flaw or weakness in my personal riding style.
It would be more usual to hear someone say that a bike with clip-ons feels heavier steering than a standard. This makes me wonder what trouble you feel you are having with turning. Can you elaborate?

Some of the other suggestions so far are good ones, but it may be hard to target an answer until we hear more about the symptom.

[Sidewalk]

If you think a Monster is a standard, compare it to my Nighthawk :laughing

The more upright position does reduce your control. Changes the handling and the feel of the bike, the farther up you go the worse it is.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by tzrider
It would be more usual to hear someone say that a bike with clip-ons feels heavier steering than a standard. This makes me wonder what trouble you feel you are having with turning. Can you elaborate?

That's exactly where I stand, Andy. When I get my torso down and place myself in a better position to both countersteer and shift my weight, steering sportbikes with clip ons becomes much easier for me.

Originally posted by Sidewalk
The more upright position does reduce your control. Changes the handling and the feel of the bike, the farther up you go the worse it is.

Your front end feel, maybe. But your control? How would you explain how quickly the motard guys get around?

[ntula]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
That's exactly where I stand, Andy. When I get my torso down and place myself in a better position to both countersteer and shift my weight, steering sportbikes with clip ons becomes much easier for me.



Your front end feel, maybe. But your control? How would you explain how quickly the motard guys get around?

little rear wheels.

[Z3n]

Doc Wong mentioned this weekend that when he first started riding his Duc 748, he felt that the steering was impossibly hard. He found that this was as a result of the insane clipon position, but once his arms were positioned correctly (at a 90 degree angle to the axis of steering) the problem was eliminated.

Barring setup issues, it seems that the thing that needs to be done is make sure that your arms are in a good position for maximizing the effects of your arm movements on the steering of the bike. For a long time, as a result of the MSF saying to "Push down on the right bar to turn right", i always had a 45 degree angle on the bars, not realizing that i needed to have a 90 degree angle for the most efficient steering inputs. I've since changed my riding position, and it makes a dramatic difference in the amount of pressure i have to put on the bars to turn in (almost none).

[Baptistro]

Originally posted by Z3n
Doc Wong mentioned this weekend that when he first started riding his Duc 748, he felt that the steering was impossibly hard. He found that this was as a result of the insane clipon position, but once his arms were positioned correctly (at a 90 degree angle to the axis of steering) the problem was eliminated.

Barring setup issues, it seems that the thing that needs to be done is make sure that your arms are in a good position for maximizing the effects of your arm movements on the steering of the bike. For a long time, as a result of the MSF saying to "Push down on the right bar to turn right", i always had a 45 degree angle on the bars, not realizing that i needed to have a 90 degree angle for the most efficient steering inputs. I've since changed my riding position, and it makes a dramatic difference in the amount of pressure i have to put on the bars to turn in (almost none).

I specifically coach pushing "forward" on the bar

[Z3n]

Originally posted by Baptistro
I specifically coach pushing "forward" on the bar

Seriously, i think i just got shafted taking the MSF in san diego...:laughing

Either that, or i'm just remembering everything wrong...:laughing

Probably both...:x

Either way, i got it sorted out now. :laughing

[tzrider]

Originally posted by Baptistro
I specifically coach pushing "forward" on the bar
This is exactly right. When the bars are lower than the rider's shoulders, there is a natural tendency to press partly down and partly forward on the bars. As others have pointed out, the bars don't turn down, they turn forward.

So, if your arm is at a 45 degree angle to the ground and you're pressing on the bar with 10 pounds of force, 5 of those pounds is turning the bars and the other 5 are just wearing you out. If you slouch a bit so that you line your effort up with the plane the bars are on, turning may take half of the effort you needed before.

But without knowing more from the OP, I couldn't say if this has anything to do with her trouble. From what I remember of the Monster, the bars are higher than clip-ons, but they are also farther back. This could allow the rider to sit so upright that even though the bars are higher, the arms still tend to press down and forward.

[ntula]

Originally posted by Sidewalk
If you think a Monster is a standard, compare it to my Nighthawk :laughing

The more upright position does reduce your control. Changes the handling and the feel of the bike, the farther up you go the worse it is.

the futher up (upright), the less weight on the front, shock more extended, more trail, harder handling at low speeds.. more aggressive, more weight, less trail, easier to handle at low speeds, less stability at higher speeds..

setting the suspension for your weight will help and the pre load for psoition and changings and 'diving'.

[DucatiHoney]

Sorry for the absence, folks. My notification isn't working for this thread for some reason... :confused I'll address some questions to clarify here.

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
Is your torso fairly vertical when you're riding a stock Monster? I'm wondering if the position of your torso puts you in an awkward position to countersteer effectively and efficiently.


I'm totally upright on the Monster in question. It's like I'm sitting in a chair very prim and proper-like.

Originally posted by Baptistro
May sound really simple, but make sure you've got your elbows bent and your weight off your hands. If this is a problem when you ride the monster, it will make a world of difference.

The was the first thing I thought also. I've always been pretty good about not weighting the bars, however, and feel that I've only improved in this respect. I'm very conscious of it on this particular bike when I ride it.

[Baptistro]

At what speeds are you having trouble?

If your arms are as bent as in your avatar picture, they're not bent enough.

[tzrider]

If you're still there, what trouble are you having turning?

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by tzrider
It would be more usual to hear someone say that a bike with clip-ons feels heavier steering than a standard. This makes me wonder what trouble you feel you are having with turning. Can you elaborate?

You would think that the wider bars in an easy-to-access position would make for better steering. It just doesn't for me. I have a hard time getting my weight where I want it to make the bike turn. I use my body a lot to steer the bike and don't rely on countersteering very much at all generally. I feel like I'm kind of locked into a very upright position on a stock Monster and the turning doesn't happen readily.

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
How would you explain how quickly the motard guys get around?

That's what I'm thinking. These guys can make those bikes move. The position isn't problematic for them.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
You would think that the wider bars in an easy-to-access position would make for better steering. It just doesn't for me. I have a hard time getting my weight where I want it to make the bike turn. I use my body a lot to steer the bike and don't rely on countersteering very much at all generally. I feel like I'm kind of locked into a very upright position on a stock Monster and the turning doesn't happen readily.
If you put more focus on countersteering, you will have a much easier time turning your bike. This would be true on anything, but a Monster is about as easy to countersteer as it gets, being fairly light and having wide bars.

To go along with that, keep your inside elbow low to ensure you go with the bike as it leans over.

[DucatiHoney]

Originally posted by Z3n
Barring setup issues, it seems that the thing that needs to be done is make sure that your arms are in a good position for maximizing the effects of your arm movements on the steering of the bike. For a long time, as a result of the MSF saying to "Push down on the right bar to turn right", i always had a 45 degree angle on the bars, not realizing that i needed to have a 90 degree angle for the most efficient steering inputs. I've since changed my riding position, and it makes a dramatic difference in the amount of pressure i have to put on the bars to turn in (almost none).

This is the second time in less than a month that someone has mentioned that importance of arm position. Funny that I've never heard it brought up before this. I'll need to check out the bike. I have very narrow shoulders--I'm a small person in general. This could be an issue.

Originally posted by Baptistro
At what speeds are you having trouble?

If your arms are as bent as in your avatar picture, they're not bent enough.

That avatar isn't me. ;) That's a 5-foot-nuthin gal that I looked up online that rides Ducatis. She was my inspiration. I don't know her, but if I ever run across her again I'll pass it along. :)

So I need to have my arms pretty bent in order to turn well, even on an upright bike? Never thought of that either. I'll check it out. I know on my other bikes, my arms are kind of at their "power point" in terms of being bent--not too stretched, not too bent. Most bikes I'm comfortable on have this position.

Hrm....we might be onto something here. Maybe it's in the arms.

[tzrider]

Originally posted by DucatiHoney
So I need to have my arms pretty bent in order to turn well, even on an upright bike? Never thought of that either. I'll check it out.
Arm position is important for being able to countersteer efficiently. To make the most of the effort you put into pressing the inside bar, you need to press the bar in the direction it actually turns; forward. Take hold of the grips and put yourself into a position where your forearms are parallel to the ground -- do whatever it takes to achieve that. Once you do, you'll almost certainly find that your elbows are bent. This is a good starting point for a workable position from which to steer.

[ntula]

you have the same wide bars as me and you know what i did the second week i had mine on, thank you again. i had the problem with the bike when i put those on. it felt great at low speeds leaning over feeling all bad hanging down, but with the stock rears, that was not really comfortable. at high speeds it made the bike feel unstable when i leaned on it, but fine in the upright position. with the stock bars/set up the bike was more balanced in all positions.

i also moved mine in a little and put on the rearsets that were made to go with the bars, also made my rizoma. by adjusting them, i found the position that puts my elbows at an angle that was most optimal as well as comfortable, it feels natural and the bike an extension of my body. how do i say it.. i do not have to think, pull in, push out, counter steer.. etc, because the bike is so comfortable, it becomes autonomous with me.. imo, motards are the same way. if you have to force your body into a postition to have better control, how can that really make you control the bike better.

the guys on the motards, those bikes are balanced perfectly for the prime hooigan postition. the bike was engineered for that riding position. imo, when you put the clip ons on, you altered the bike and the way it was set up to be riden from the factory, in that chain waving hooligan position. the monster is a little different from a standard in that it has a pretty aggressive rake like a sport bike, so if you put clip ons on it, you may find you need a damper just like you need on the 748's.. 996/8.... etc.

imo, you should have your suspension checked and try a steering damper. if you are riding 'prim and proper' because the bike puts you int that, i just don't think your hand placement and steering technique are the main factor.

[Baptistro]

Originally posted by tzrider
Take hold of the grips and put yourself into a position where your forearms are parallel to the ground -- do whatever it takes to achieve that. Once you do, you'll almost certainly find that your elbows are bent. This is a good starting point for a workable position from which to steer.

That's basically what I was getting at :thumbup

[squid vicious]

a steering damper is not supposed to cure an "unstable at speed" bike. that is a chasis/suspension set up issue if you're wobbling through a turn. A damper is only for keeping the bars from wacking back and forth due to a bump or from the front tire slightly off line when you bring it back down to the pavement under hard acceleration. It's not a good idea to rely on it to cure improper geometry/sag/damping.

DH, your monster has wider bars than a sport bike, and on a smaller/narrower person that can become an issue as it has a tendancy to straighten your arms. Plus sitting upright brings your shoulders farther from the triple, once again straightening your arms. You can't "pull" a motorcycle over onto it's side. Whether you realize it or not, you're countersteering every motorcycle you ride and straighter arms make for less efficient countersteering.

[racerXgirl]

I'm the same way on my Monster. it's totally a night and day difference between that and the R6. I'm looking into getting lower bars on that thing and will be happy to keep you posted on how it improves/makes worse my riding position.

The thing that I like about the R6 the most is that because my weight is forward, I can better use my knees and my chest to balance myself and keep myself up thus putting less weight on the clipons. I don't have to use my arms to stabilize myself.

[ntula]

Originally posted by squid vicious
a steering damper is not supposed to cure an "unstable at speed" bike. that is a chasis/suspension set up issue if you're wobbling through a turn. A damper is only for keeping the bars from wacking back and forth due to a bump or from the front tire slightly off line when you bring it back down to the pavement under hard acceleration. It's not a good idea to rely on it to cure improper geometry/sag/damping.

DH, your monster has wider bars than a sport bike, and on a smaller/narrower person that can become an issue as it has a tendancy to straighten your arms. Plus sitting upright brings your shoulders farther from the triple, once again straightening your arms. You can't "pull" a motorcycle over onto it's side. Whether you realize it or not, you're countersteering every motorcycle you ride and straighter arms make for less efficient countersteering.

so true, one should set the bike up first before adding things like dampers.

i had to move my bars in for that reason, the tendency to straighen the arms.

i found a place you can get metric 22mm bars to fit, you can get an 11 or 9 inch bars instead of the approx 13 inch ones that come with the rizoma clip ons.

[Baptistro]

Speed is an issue too.

***opening can of worms***

Motorcycle turning is almost always initiated by a countersteering input to initially lean in the direction of intended travel

however, at (very) low speeds, and in other situations that do not warrant discussion here, you perform the turn (often preceded by a countersteering input to initiate lean) by turning the bars, and the wheel in the direction you want to go.

Having your arms locked (for demonstrative purposes) in either situation prevents you from exerting proper inputs to the bars bars to initiate and complete a turn. Not only are you putting downward pressure on the bars, but the opposite arm is in effect preventing you from turning the bars. If your arms were locked, at an approximate 45 degree angle to the perpendicular, an input to the right bar would be offset by the resistance from the left locked arm. If you got the bars to turn/move in that situation it would be from either shoulder, back, waist or hip rotation. why would anyone want less direct input to the bars?

So, are you having problems at low speed, high speed, or both?

[Z3n]

Originally posted by Baptistro
Speed is an issue too.

***opening can of worms***

Motorcycle turning is almost always initiated by a countersteering input to initially lean in the direction of intended travel

however, at (very) low speeds, and in other situations that do not warrant discussion here, you perform the turn (often preceded by a countersteering input to initiate lean) by turning the bars, and the wheel in the direction you want to go.

Having your arms locked (for demonstrative purposes) in either situation prevents you from exerting proper inputs to the bars bars to initiate and complete a turn. Not only are you putting downward pressure on the bars, but the opposite arm is in effect preventing you from turning the bars. If your arms were locked, at an approximate 45 degree angle to the perpendicular, an input to the right bar would be offset by the resistance from the left locked arm. If you got the bars to turn/move in that situation it would be from either shoulder, back, waist or hip rotation. why would anyone want less direct input to the bars?

So, are you having problems at low speed, high speed, or both?

Lee Park's Total Control has a bit on this, and advises only giving steering input with the inside arm, as the outside arm tends to resist inputs unconciously. I've found that this technique works very well for riders who have issues with the bike standing up and running wide midcorner or problems with the steering being too heavy.

I also find that i don't need any more force than i exert with proper body position and inside bar movements. The track can be an exception, but even there, a good shove at the right angle on the inside bar with the correct weighting causes the bike to flop over on it's side pretty damn fast.

[ntula]

Originally posted by Baptistro
Speed is an issue too.

***opening can of worms***

So, are you having problems at low speed, high speed, or both?


mmm worms..


i think heather's issue is more with the way her bike is set up, with the clip ons and position, and when that is changed, in regards to technique, form will follow function.

[Chillax719]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
I couldn't turn Jamie Hacking's R1 to save myself, as his clipons are very straight when compared to most stock bars.

Does this mean that the straighter your clip-ons are positioned the harder it is to turn?

Im asking cause I had recently spread my clip-ons outward for a comfortable commute to work. Then this would explain why I have to push the bike more for extra lean angle. Is this correct, or is it just me?

[Baptistro]

Originally posted by Chillax719
Does this mean that the straighter your clip-ons are positioned the harder it is to turn?

Im asking cause I had recently spread my clip-ons outward for a comfortable commute to work. Then this would explain why I have to push the bike more for extra lean angle. Is this correct, or is it just me?

I don't think so.

If you had said:

"Does this mean that the straighter your clip-ons are positioned the harder it is to turn while maintaining the same body position?"

I might agree.

True some bikes will turn more or less than others based on the geometry of the bike, wheelbase, rake, trail, damping of steering, lock to lock rotation, etc.

Bar location or type, should not affect turning in and of itself, as long as it does not prevent turning of the bars. As long as you can achieve the same front wheel position, you can turn the same amount on that particular bike. Adjusting your body, hand and arm position to allow you proper operation of the controls as set up is the key.

If you've angled your clipons further out for comfort, you will probably have to lower and lengthen your body position to be able to properly steer the motorcycle.

I'll see if I can work up some diagrams to demonstrate.

[racerXgirl]

Originally posted by Chillax719
Does this mean that the straighter your clip-ons are positioned the harder it is to turn?

Im asking cause I had recently spread my clip-ons outward for a comfortable commute to work. Then this would explain why I have to push the bike more for extra lean angle. Is this correct, or is it just me?

Each person is comfortable in a different way. Being a little shorter, when the handle bars are higher and away from me, it just about makes me straight arm a bike. The R6, because the clipons are towards me, it allows me to relax and bend my elbows better.

All bikes are different so each person is going to ride them differently. I just happen to be more comfortable on a sportier type bike.

[Chillax719]

Originally posted by Baptistro
I don't think so.


If you've angled your clipons further out for comfort, you will probably have to lower and lengthen your body position to be able to properly steer the motorcycle.



Ok, this explains why im having to work a bit harder in turns since I've adjusted the bars. I didn't really understand what it did overall, except that it was easier on my wrists aftr long periods. I'll play around with positions and see if I can find a compromise.

Thanks Bap, those diagrams should help me out!

[Chillax719]

Originally posted by racerXgirl
The R6, because the clipons are towards me, it allows me to relax and bend my elbows better.


Did you adjust them or left them stock? How many degrees are they angled if 0 is parralel to the triple?

[ntula]

Originally posted by racerXgirl
Each person is comfortable in a different way. Being a little shorter, when the handle bars are higher and away from me, it just about makes me straight arm a bike. The R6, because the clipons are towards me, it allows me to relax and bend my elbows better.

All bikes are different so each person is going to ride them differently. I just happen to be more comfortable on a sportier type bike.

target function of the vehicle makes a big diff too. i found the monster to be such a multi purpose general moto, i only expect it to perform in that sense of doing everything well, but nothing extremely specialized... you can do a lot of things on it you cannot do on a dedicated sport bike. it is a perfect bike for sf, being urban, hilly, and rough roads, and coastal cal with it's twisty backroads and sophisticated culture. at the same time you cannot really expect it to excell in the areas a sport bike does.
in regards to the topic and monsters, i found the monster not the best vehicle for high speed period and high speed turns and required more effort than a sport bike for that. the frame also twists a little when you lean hard and power out.

i had to set the monster up to fit me, my zx, i did not.

[EbolaMonkey]

may be a dead issue, but i just wanted to point out that body-steering doesn't turn a bike.. countersteering does... its just that if u do flick your body to the side, the steering will move and countersteer a little bit but yar... not nearly as effective as just pushing on the bars...

[DucatiHoney]

There are definitely two camps on that one, but I've managed to make a bike turn using one, the other and even both techniques. I think both methods have their merits and sometimes one works better than another for the conditions. I've tried both ways of steering on this bike. I'm not an expert at either, but one doesn't seem to work a whole lot better than the other for me.

[racerXgirl]

Originally posted by Chillax719
Did you adjust them or left them stock? How many degrees are they angled if 0 is parralel to the triple?

Honestly I don't know. The R6 is a race bike I purchased from a friend of mine. The way that they're angled, my guess would be about 45 degrees or so from the triple?

[Chillax719]

Originally posted by racerXgirl
Honestly I don't know. The R6 is a race bike I purchased from a friend of mine. The way that they're angled, my guess would be about 45 degrees or so from the triple?

Cool! Ill try that out and use it as a baseline to play around from, since I've screwed with mine that it's so straight and don't even know where begin. Thanks!

[Dion Rides]

Use the handlebars!!!

I prefer handlebars - especially big, wide, with a limited set-back, I have Ricky Charmichael bars on all of my bikes.

If you're used to turning a bike with clip-ons, standard seating and handlbars are definetely weird. I actually can't turn a sportbike as tight as I can a standard/motard/dual sport.

[Flipside]

I could be off base but your track bike has way narower tires than your monster.I use to not like how my M900 handelled until I switch to 160's,from 180's & raise my rear ride height.

[ntula]

Originally posted by racerXgirl
Honestly I don't know. The R6 is a race bike I purchased from a friend of mine. The way that they're angled, my guess would be about 45 degrees or so from the triple?

45 degrees, no wonder you crashed it.

most are at about 7 - 22 degrees stock and most aftermarket are at about 10 - 22 degrees.

http://www.reverserotatingrotors.com/mythbuster.html`

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_0310_motorcycle_riding_position/