Wrecked

[Slowzuki]

"My brother, my roommate, my friend, my neighbor, my dog, anyone but me" I see that so many people want to blame scratches and marred fairings and missing mirrors on some phantom crasher. We all crash, without exception every single motorcyclist on earth will at some point wreck, so why not fess up and share your experience and mishap with others and help them avoid the like, your pride aside. I read this unrelenting barrage of insults aimed at some dude posting a pic of himself and his buddy, going two up with some girls sans protective gear, on some nice day, proud of their bikes, but nothing, not a word about some dude letting his brother give his R1 a spin. Lets see, two up on a ZX10...pistols at dawn....my brother learning on my R1...aw shucks. No disrespect meant for dude that suffered a loss due to his brother, just an observation...er I mean my neighbors observation. It seems that it is always our penultimate wreck that is the most damaging...to our ego. As a people lets move on and grow.

[caponerd]

Originally posted by Slowzuki
[B We all crash, without exception every single motorcyclist on earth will at some point wreck, [/B]

I'd like to point out that I know several motorcyclists with 20+ years of experience each, who have never crashed.
I'm not one of them, (I'll be happy to share the lessons I learned from my crashes).
On the other hand, I haven't crashed a bike since 1977. That's 30 years without crashing.
This doesn't count falls while riding in the dirt, or a couple of "sidestand folded up" parking lot drops.
That's a pretty good record, and in case anyone wants to know, I do ride reasonably fast on twisty roads when I have a mind to.

Crashing is not inevitable. It probably takes a special kind of discipline to not ever crash, but there are riders who've managed to keep the rubber side down for their entire riding careers..

[Christieland]

Originally posted by caponerd
Crashing is not inevitable. It probably takes a special kind of discipline to not ever crash, but there are riders who've managed to keep the rubber side down for their entire riding careers..

Such an excellent point. I have a list of riders I personally know who have been riding 10+ years and have had the good judgment to avoid wrecks on the street and still have some fun on the road.

I'm also going to add a quote here that you posted in another thread here in the crash analysis forum:

Originally posted by caponerd
I am firmly convinced that no matter what anyone else says or thinks, 99.99% of motorcycle crashes are avoidable and entirely within the control of the motorcyclist to prevent.
Expanding your envelope of situational awareness is one thing. You can also learn to "read the minds" of car drivers. I often pick up very subtle signals that they're about to do something that will put me in danger. I don't just see the cars, I see the people driving them. It's amazing how much information you can take in in an instant with enough practice.

In that same thread, Enchanter, an MSF instructor for something like 15 years I think, agreed with you.

Yes, the original poster has a point about people pointing fingers, but on the other hand, if you take the time to write about your wreck on barf, you'll get some excellent advice and constructive criticism, but you'll probably also get some jerks making obnoxious points, or even making good points, just...obnoxiously. Ce la vie.

[afm199]

In forty years of riding I have had 30 plus crashes, about 28 of them were due to my lack of foresight and going too fast for conditions. One other someone hit me and the last one I am not really sure but it was on the race track and the front end tucked for some reason.

My point being (as Christie said) if you blame others you learn nothing and are doomed to repeat a cycle of fallure till you discover what it is in YOUR behavior that is causing problems.

[caponerd]

Originally posted by afm199
In forty years of riding I have had 30 plus crashes, about 28 of them were due to my lack of foresight and going too fast for conditions. One other someone hit me and the last one I am not really sure but it was on the race track and the front end tucked for some reason.

My point being (as Christie said) if you blame others you learn nothing and are doomed to repeat a cycle of fallure till you discover what it is in YOUR behavior that is causing problems.

AFM, whenever I discuss "crashes", I make it a point to be clear that I'm talking about crashing or going down while riding on public roads at normal traffic speed or higher.

Any time you're on a racetrack or riding in the dirt, you can expect to go down. That worn-out old "not a matter of if, but when" cliche does apply there. I also exclude parking lot drops, and very low-speed maneuver (like a u-turn in your driveway) drops. These happen to the best of us sometimes.

Then there's that one-percent (I'm exaggerating when I say 99.99%) of the times when shit just happens.
What we're doing is managing the risks.
I don't remember the numbers for sure, but there's something on the order of 1500 out of 100,000 motorcyclists who are killed every year. That's a comparatively large number, but when you remember that better than 50% of those deaths were speed and/or alchohol related, it becomes easy to double our odds of survival.
After that, all the skills that us old guys learned the hard way (and the MSF training does a pretty good job of introducing beginners to), will improve the odds to the point where we're probably in no more danger of being killed while riding than the average car driver is.
(come to that, if car drivers all had to develop the same habits as a good motorcyclist, traffic "accidents" would be a thing of the past!)

There have truthfully been times in recent years when I felt at far greater risk just walking across a busy street than I do riding my motorcycle. And the situational awareness skills developed from 38 years on two wheels served me as well there as they do while I'm riding.

[Ratters]

Originally posted by caponerd
AFM, whenever I discuss "crashes", I make it a point to be clear that I'm talking about crashing or going down while riding on public roads at normal traffic speed or higher.

Any time you're on a racetrack or riding in the dirt, you can expect to go down.

Hey, I don't ever expect to crash on the race track either. ;) :teeth

[ichbinnichtheir]

Originally posted by Slowzuki
"My brother, my roommate, my friend, my neighbor, my dog, anyone but me"

For me it is always the previous owner. "Got a good deal on the bike because of it..."

[Slowzuki]

"I also exclude parking lot drops, and very low-speed maneuver (like a u-turn in your driveway) drops. These happen to the best of us sometimes. "

Why exclude these instances? I am not trying to be a dick, but are we to assume that you have mastered the road to the point that you have removed all risk, but forgot to address some key issues like parking your bike and low speed maneuvering?

"Then there's that one-percent (I'm exaggerating when I say 99.99%) of the times when shit just happens. "

Why would you say this? Does shit not just happen to your friends that have 30 or more years riding.

"After that, all the skills that us old guys learned the hard way (and the MSF training does a pretty good job of introducing beginners to), will improve the odds to the point where we're probably in no more danger of being killed while riding than the average car driver is (come to that, if car drivers all had to develop the same habits as a good motorcyclist, traffic "accidents" would be a thing of the past!)"

So now it is not our faults at all, but rather the fault of people in cars. Trust me when I tell you that you are always at more danger of being killed ON a bike that IN a car. When it comes to bikes there are no fender benders.

"There have truthfully been times in recent years when I felt at far greater risk just walking across a busy street than I do riding my motorcycle. "

Perhaps you should get out while you are ahead. If you feel that riding your bike is safer than walking but you fall at low speeds then, damn.

[caponerd]

Originally posted by Slowzuki
"I also exclude parking lot drops, and very low-speed maneuver (like a u-turn in your driveway) drops. These happen to the best of us sometimes. "

Why exclude these instances? I am not trying to be a dick, but are we to assume that you have mastered the road to the point that you have removed all risk, but forgot to address some key issues like parking your bike and low speed maneuvering?

"Then there's that one-percent (I'm exaggerating when I say 99.99%) of the times when shit just happens. "

Why would you say this? Does shit not just happen to your friends that have 30 or more years riding.

"After that, all the skills that us old guys learned the hard way (and the MSF training does a pretty good job of introducing beginners to), will improve the odds to the point where we're probably in no more danger of being killed while riding than the average car driver is (come to that, if car drivers all had to develop the same habits as a good motorcyclist, traffic "accidents" would be a thing of the past!)"

So now it is not our faults at all, but rather the fault of people in cars. Trust me when I tell you that you are always at more danger of being killed ON a bike that IN a car. When it comes to bikes there are no fender benders.

"There have truthfully been times in recent years when I felt at far greater risk just walking across a busy street than I do riding my motorcycle. "

Perhaps you should get out while you are ahead. If you feel that riding your bike is safer than walking but you fall at low speeds then, damn.

Nice bit of cherry picking there!
I'm talking about the kind of crash that can get us hurt or killed.
I've had four of those. I've had 5 or 6 of the kind I don't consider when talking about safe riding on the street.
Twice, my bmw with it's flakey sidestand rolled forward and fell over. Once I dropped my Aprilia because I was moving it from the offside, and the stand folded up.
I've fallen two or three times in the dirt. Ask anyone who rides in the dirt a lot. They'll tell you that's expected.
And where did I say it's the car's fault?
If you'd seen any of my many other posts on this subject, I've consistently said that even when it's legally the fault of the driver in a car/motorcycle collision, there is almost always something the motorcyclist could have done to prevent it.
The two times when I hit a car, I know that was the case.
In each of the four "real" crashes I've had, I figured out how I contributed to it, and never repeated the same mistake again.
That's the point of the MSF training. I just happened to learn that stuff the hard way, before the MSF existed.
I am still convinced that "it's not a matter of when but if" is a myth, and like I said, I know a few guys (admittedly a very, very small minority of motorcyclists) who are living proof that my hopefulness isn't in vain.
I think the people who need to give it up are the ones who are convinced that "it's not a matter of if but when".
After all if it's only "a matter of when" you crash the first time, it's only a "matter of when" you're going to crash again, and again...
Sooner or later your luck might run out and it will be a "matter of when" your crash kills you.

One last thing, allow me to quote your remark:
"So now it is not our faults at all, but rather the fault of people in cars. Trust me when I tell you that you are always at more danger of being killed ON a bike that IN a car. When it comes to bikes there are no fender benders."

You completely missed my point. Go re-read my statement about car drivers and msf type training.
Situational awareness among all drivers that we motorcyclists excersize would go a long way towards reducing the overall accident rate among all road users.
Exclucing rare equipment failures, all accidents happen because someone made a mistake.

[Holeshot]

Why is this a hard question to answer?

I've crashed many times on the track. I've never, not once, crashed on the street...in 12 years of riding.

[caponerd]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Why is this a hard question to answer?

I've crashed many times on the track. I've never, not once, crashed on the street...in 12 years of riding.

May I use that information for the survey that I've posted elsewhere in the crash analysis forum?
That's the sort of response I'm looking for there.

[Slowzuki]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Why is this a hard question to answer?

I've crashed many times on the track. I've never, not once, crashed on the street...in 12 years of riding.

It's not a hard question to answer, I am not able to discount what you claim, but that is the nature of discussion between individuals via the phone or internet discussing things in the past. We have never met and there is no means of proving you honest or dishonest.

But your claim is just that, a claim, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.” One thing is certain, the truth is what you care to share.

[Dove]

Originally posted by Slowzuki
It's not a hard question to answer, I am not able to discount what you claim, but that is the nature of discussion between individuals via the phone or internet discussing things in the past. We have never met and there is no means of proving you honest or dishonest.

But your claim is just that, a claim, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.” One thing is certain, the truth is what you care to share.

Lame. Holeshot owned you.

[caponerd]

Originally posted by Slowzuki
It's not a hard question to answer, I am not able to discount what you claim, but that is the nature of discussion between individuals via the phone or internet discussing things in the past. We have never met and there is no means of proving you honest or dishonest.

But your claim is just that, a claim, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.” One thing is certain, the truth is what you care to share.

Ok, to be fair; there are motorcycle racers who don't ride on the street. (not that this is the case here)
I see no reason why anyone would need to lie about their crash history.
Interestingly, I'm getting many, many responses to this survey on every forum I've posted it on (about 8 total), but haven't recieved any responses here, except for holeshot's comment, which may not have even been prompted by my survey.
I'm seriously trying to gather information one way or another to answer the question; is it inevitable that all motorcyclists are going to crash no matter how careful and competent they are?
As far as I know, no-one has ever tried to compile this information before.

[ANDS!]

But your claim is just that, a claim, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.” One thing is certain, the truth is what you care to share.

Not to fan flames, but doesn't this explain your assumption as well? You've absolutely nothing to back up this assertion that EVERYONE is going to be involved in a serious "crash" - nor do you qualify "crash" very well.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by caponerd
Ok, to be fair; there are motorcycle racers who don't ride on the street. (not that this is the case here)
I see no reason why anyone would need to lie about their crash history.
Interestingly, I'm getting many, many responses to this survey on every forum I've posted it on (about 8 total), but haven't recieved any responses here, except for holeshot's comment, which may not have even been prompted by my survey.
I'm seriously trying to gather information one way or another to answer the question; is it inevitable that all motorcyclists are going to crash no matter how careful and competent they are?
As far as I know, no-one has ever tried to compile this information before.

I'll fill out your survey in a bit, but...every motorcyclist will crash. It's inevitable. But, some will die of natural causes before they crash.

[Holeshot]

Caponerd, please use the information however you need. I don't believe every rider will crash eventually. I'm not one of those thinkers. It took racing for me to put a bike on the ground.

Slowzuki, I'm not sure why you'd question anyone's integrity here. What's the use in telling tall tales when admitting crashing on the track yet not crashing on the street? I've never once had a bike hit the ground outside the track. Not to mention, I'm not exactly unknown around here. People know my integrity. The truth is what I tell you here. What a weak response to question credibility, as if I make money or friends off such an answer.

[caponerd]

Thanks holeshot and Z3n.

I appreciate the information.

I've gotten a ton of responses at advrider.com and britbike.com.

I'm hearing from quite a few motorcyclists with 20 + years of experience who have never crashed, and even a few who tell me that they've never crashed by any definition of the word "crash".
I'm also hearing from very many long-term motorcyclists who have only crashed once or twice, and a vast majority of those claim that the last time they crashed was within the first 10 years of thier riding careers.

I'm going to give the survey a few days to play out, then compile the information I get, and see what sort of graphs and charts come out of it.

I'd be grateful to anyone else here who responds to my survey.

[Z3n]

Originally posted by caponerd
Thanks holeshot and Z3n.

I appreciate the information.

I've gotten a ton of responses at advrider.com and britbike.com.

I'm hearing from quite a few motorcyclists with 20 + years of experience who have never crashed, and even a few who tell me that they've never crashed by any definition of the word "crash".
I'm also hearing from very many long-term motorcyclists who have only crashed once or twice, and a vast majority of those claim that the last time they crashed was within the first 10 years of thier riding careers.

I'm going to give the survey a few days to play out, then compile the information I get, and see what sort of graphs and charts come out of it.

I'd be grateful to anyone else here who responds to my survey.

Cool! I'll be looking forward to the results :)

[Slowzuki]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Slowzuki, I'm not sure why you'd question anyone's integrity here. What's the use in telling tall tales when admitting crashing on the track yet not crashing on the street? I've never once had a bike hit the ground outside the track. Not to mention, I'm not exactly unknown around here. People know my integrity. The truth is what I tell you here. What a weak response to question credibility, as if I make money or friends off such an answer.

I appologize if you thought that I was questioning your integrity specifically, I assure you that is not the case. What I was attempting to convey was that the nature of this particular setting is that there is no way to be certain about the accuracy of what is being posted. To answer your question, the use in telling tall tales is that crashing seems to be a rather embarassing thing. I have heard so many tales about how a bike got scratched, dropped etc. I hope this makes what I was posted more clear.

[Flimsy Slowham]

The net-net:

1) Slowzuki, an immature rookie who's defensive about his post (which I will say started out well); can't even read some of the best advice I've seen given on ANY forum by Caponerd and take from it all the good that was intended.

2) Caponerd, who by his list of bikes alone (never mind his testimony as to how long he's been riding), clearly a seasoned, thoughtful and AWARE rider, who's simply trying to share that wealth of experience.

The result: Another rookie misses an opportunity to grow and learn. Hey--see ya on 9! (not!)

(sigh)

[Holeshot]

Slowzuik, you are correct, that online surveys can be questionable at best. However, most anonomous surveys should yeild the most honest results I"d wager...

[Slowzuki]

Originally posted by Atomic Spew
The net-net:

1) Slowzuki, an immature rookie who's defensive about his post (which I will say started out well); can't even read some of the best advice I've seen given on ANY forum by Caponerd and take from it all the good that was intended.

2) Caponerd, who by his list of bikes alone (never mind his testimony as to how long he's been riding), clearly a seasoned, thoughtful and AWARE rider, who's simply trying to share that wealth of experience.

The result: Another rookie misses an opportunity to grow and learn. Hey--see ya on 9! (not!)

(sigh)

Playboy-
I appologize if you got confused. But it will be my pleasure to clarify. See, defending your opinion is not the same as getting defensive. I hope that clears things up.

However you bring up a rather interesting point that I wish to devote some time to. (No offense to Caponerd here) If I understand you correctly , ones knowledge and the validity of there opinion increases in relation to there possessions? And I am immature. So that would go something like this in a debate. "Look I hear what you are saying, but I have more bikes than you do so, huh, I'm right."
Rest assured that I will not miss the opportunity to grow and learn from this little gem you have shared here.
Oh, and you ride on Highway 9. And that means what? Is highway 9 the yardstick to measure all riders by. Is there some minimum talent requirement on that particular road?

In closing. Be advised, I am well aware that some of you feel obligated to defend your friends, based solely on that friendship, and clearly not on the strength of their post. I will allow this to go on, but know this, it realy upsets me and I have finally had enough of this Tom-Foolery. That is all, good day.

[Slowzuki]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Slowzuik, you are correct, that online surveys can be questionable at best. However, most anonomous surveys should yeild the most honest results I"d wager...

I agree. Anonymity most certainly yields the most honest, if not accurate results. I say accurate because sometimes, through no fault of their own, people recall things that happen in a high stress situation (crash, fight, shootout) inaccurately.

[Flimsy Slowham]

:laughing

Oh Slowzuki, I never got confused. Clearly, you were being defensive, but thanks anyway for making my point for me.

Maybe there's a debate forum that would be better suited for you and your Sophomoric quotes from Macbeth (wtf?). I'm not going to lay out my argument for why I said what I said about Caponerd--funny, I knew by your previous posts that you'd take issue with my statements if I didn't spell them o-u-t for you. No, they need no explanation; any reasonoble person understands what I was saying.

Tell you what, I'll just admit that you have schooled me with your histrionic argument that, "without exception every single motorcyclist on earth will at some point wreck" if it means this post can be locked away for good...

As to my comments about hwy 9, no I don't ride hwy 9--it's NOOB city. So please, feel free to work on your riding (and writing) chops out there...

"In closing, be advised: I am well aware that some people ride as poorly as the arguments they make, but I shall allow this to go on as long as they continue to identify themselves with their Icon gear!"

ps (no, I'm not done yet), This makes ZERO sense: "I agree. Anonymity most certainly yields the most honest, if not accurate results. I say accurate because sometimes, through no fault of their own, people recall things that happen in a high stress situation (crash, fight, shootout) inaccurately." What the hell does remaining anonymous have to do with giving an accurate recounting of an accident, if by YOUR logic people recall things inaccurately that were high stress? Anonymity often does result in honesty. But identity known or not, if their recall is inaccurate because of the high stress incident, it's inaccurate. Period.

[Slowzuki]

Originally posted by Atomic Spew
:laughing

Oh Slowzuki, I never got confused. Clearly, you were being defensive, but thanks anyway for making my point for me.

Maybe there's a debate forum that would be better suited for you and your Sophomoric quotes from Macbeth (wtf?). I'm not going to lay out my argument for why I said what I said about Caponerd--funny, I knew by your previous posts that you'd take issue with my statements if I didn't spell them o-u-t for you. No, they need no explanation; any reasonoble person understands what I was saying.

Tell you what, I'll just admit that you have schooled me with your histrionic argument that, "without exception every single motorcyclist on earth will at some point wreck" if it means this post can be locked away for good...

As to my comments about hwy 9, no I don't ride hwy 9--it's NOOB city. So please, feel free to work on your riding (and writing) chops out there...

"In closing, be advised: I am well aware that some people ride as poorly as the arguments they make, but I shall allow this to go on as long as they continue to identify themselves with their Icon gear!"

ps (no, I'm not done yet), This makes ZERO sense: "I agree. Anonymity most certainly yields the most honest, if not accurate results. I say accurate because sometimes, through no fault of their own, people recall things that happen in a high stress situation (crash, fight, shootout) inaccurately." What the hell does remaining anonymous have to do with giving an accurate recounting of an accident, if by YOUR logic people recall things inaccurately that were high stress? Anonymity often does result in honesty. But identity known or not, if their recall is inaccurate because of the high stress incident, it's inaccurate. Period.

Testy, testy, I dare say, are you getting defensive? If they need no explaining then why are you explaining them? I never intended to school anyone about anything, I was just sharing my opinion. As far as riding as poorly as they argue, homie you have got to be joking. I have never seen you ride so I can not comment, but your presume to know how I ride? Come on, that is just down right ugly and it hurts my feelings. I hope you are happy. If you can’t say something nice and all.
Oh, I get it, you are confused once again. That is precisely what I said. An honest mistake is not dishonest. Honestly making a mistake is not deception, it may be inaccurate but none the less honest.

Just so it has been said, this is very far off subject.
(exhale)

[Enchanter]

Atomic Spew & Slowzuki,

The Crash Analysis is NOT the place for your bickering. I don't care who started it, knock it off.

Enchanter