New or C Group track riders [Archive] - BARF

GhostRider

04-27-2007, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by katwoman
i want to know what "b group" means exactly. i've seen this alphabetic categorization of riding groups on various group ride threads, but i tried searching and i'm not really sure what the hell they mean -- slow, faster, fastest? newbie, experienced, veteran? what exactly?

my definitions of B-Group:

1) you've done a C-group before, and are your homies are teasing you for being such a pussy newb.... so you move up to b-group

2) your ego tells you to get out of the kiddie pool, but you're not fast enough to play with the "big boyz" .... more into b-group

3) you're sick of being all safe and cuddled, and want more crashed. chicks dig scars.... move into b-group.

.... and many more....

honestly:
C-Group is nice: everyone is curteous
B-Group: that'a for EGO's. all speed, no control
A-Group: the real deal. FAST & Control

so, my advice: GET OVER IT.
Stay in C-group until you are REALY READY!

try to be in B-Group as little as possible.
chances are some hotshot ricky racer overcooks a turn and takes you out from behind. MOST CRASHES HAPPEN IN B-GROUP.

A-group..... that's where you want to be.

i hate the attitude some have that "ugh, i already did 2 trackdays, i'm not a "novice" anymore.
yeah sure..... :-p

there is A LOT you can learn in c-group.

1) be smoooth
2) work on your line
and finaly
3) trail braking
4) and passing!!!

my rule was, when after 2 years and ~20 trackdays in C-group i started lapping the same people twice, i moved to B this year.

i cant wait to get out of this toll house and move up to A, where at least i know everyone else is "under control".

many, many of the self proclaimed "B-Group" riders i ride with this year should be sent back to C. they obviously are in over their head, have no concept of what they do.
Worst part, this years B-group has many "R1 racers" who WFO it in the straights and park the corners.
DUDES, get a twofiddy and back to kindergarden for you!

:deadhorse

squid vicious

04-27-2007, 12:51 PM

racerXgirl

04-27-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Outta Control
I am inquiring what do recently new riders, C Group, or nervous rider would like to know more of. What aspects of riding or area of needed improvements. I know there are a variety of possibilities but just want to see what are the top areas. Thanks in advance.

Back to the basics. Turn your head and look THROUGH the turn, smooth operation of their controls. Body positioning including having relaxed shoulders and elbows.

So many of these skills we take for granted when we ride the street. When a new track rider really uses those skills in a controlled environment, suddenly they're going faster than they've gone before is a less scary manner than they've done it before and hopefully they'll remember these basic skills when they get back to the street.

Once they have those things down, maybe then go into the three things that define a turn. Entrance, apex, exit. How to determine which turn is an early, late, mid apex turn.

Emphasis on little things like, the exit is where you get your drive, so don't charge the entrance and sacrifice your exit . . . take the slow turns slow and fast sections fast.

Then of course braking. How to go deeper into a turn before applying the brakes and perhaps a bit of trailbraking.

Z3n

04-27-2007, 01:41 PM

Ok, here's my question:

I've been riding for 3 years. Most of that has been aggressive, twisty type riding, although i've raked up a lot of commute miles as well (upwards of 70k miles in those 3 years). I've owned 4 motorcycles, ridden a crapload more, am comfortable dragging knee in most situations (Although am now attempting to learn how to get through a given corner without dragging a knee by dint of better body position), have been to 2 trackdays, and most importantly, have had excellent teachers, that have taught me the value of smoothness, not riding over your head, not riding like a retard, the books that are my bibles, that i can always learn more...

(I'm the rider in the red in my avy, on the SV. My line sucks, i'm aware. :laughing )

Right before i went out to the track last time, i blew the engine on my zx-6e, and ended up borrowing 2 friends bikes to trade out through the day. One was a ZX-6E with suspension upgrades, and the other was an SV650, bone stock except for an exhaust. I made it through 5 sessions before i started mentally lapsing on the track, to the point where i decided to stop entirely, as I was starting to begin to make stupid mistakes. I could head them off at the pass, but it wasn't comfortable, i didn't feel like i was in my zone anymore, so i stopped.

With all of that said: Should i be moving up to the B group? In my later sessions, when I was more comfortable on a bike that wasn't mine (sessions 3-5), suspension that wasn't quite right for me, i wasn't passed (except by control riders, obviously)...and i was passing some of the slower riders in the group upwards of 3-4 times each session. These were obviously the very new riders on the track, the guys going bolt upright through the corners. The more experienced riders i was passing once, or maybe twice, depending on when/where we started. I don't know if i'm quite comfortable with the idea of being passed on both sides, but i feel that i'm not allowing the other riders on the track the environment that they should be in when i'm coming around the outside of them in a corner upwards of 5-10 mph faster than they are going. Especially when it comes to the riders that are much more uncomfortable on the track.

Also, i recently bought a new motorcycle (CBR929). Should i be staying in the lower group in the trackdays for now, to gain familierity with the new motorcycle? I've got the CBR set up at a point where it feels comfortable to me, where i feel like i could really start pushing it on the track, but i'm wary of going to the B group before I'm good and ready. I don't want to be the noob on a literbike, running it up down the straights, and parking it in the corners like a jackass. :laughing

In this line, i've signed up for Reg Pridmore's CLASS at Streets of Willow, and figure that if they dump me into the A group after a few sessions i'll have my answer, and if they leave me in the B group i'll continue to hang out in the C group for a bit longer. Does this seem reasonable?

(I have no idea what my lap times are, and i don't really care. I'll go as fast as i feel comfortable, and i don't care what the timer says. There's time enough for that when i get my SV and attempt to break into racing)

And i really don't mean any of this to come off as arrogant, or anything like that. I want to make a decision that will benifit my riding and allow a pleasurable trackday experience for those around me.

racerXgirl

04-27-2007, 02:30 PM

Honest question . .. why do you want to move the B group? Your response will get a longer answer from me.

Outta Control

04-27-2007, 03:00 PM

hey racer how are you recovering :D

racerXgirl

04-27-2007, 03:11 PM

Hi Alvin! Not too bad! I was better a few days ago (wearing my own shoes and all! Oh and we got through our first weekend of RCP! Two more to go, wish us luck!), but today it really hurts again. I made an apt with my doctor to look at it :cry

Outta Control

04-27-2007, 03:21 PM

I know you and Squid are gonna make it. :thumbup

Z3n

04-27-2007, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by racerXgirl
Honest question . .. why do you want to move the B group? Your response will get a longer answer from me.

I would like to move up to the B group for the possibility of having better lines demonstrated. I feel that i really lack good understanding of line technique, and would like to see how different riders, especially faster riders with more comfort on a track, take different corners.

Recently, i got some advice from another rider pitted near me (on a beat to hell SV! :teeth ) who really opened up a corner for me and helped me gain a significant amount of comfort as well as speed...the idea of being able to watch a person on the track with that level of skill, and steal lines for at least a corner or 2, and then modify that and try new things based off of what i've seen, sounds awesome.

Also, I don't really enjoy being stuck behind slower riders due to the "outside passing only" rules, and i don't think that I'm doing any of them, or myself, any favors by passing them repeatedly throughout the course of the day. While i'm comfortable passing, i don't know how comfortable they are with me coming by, sometimes significantly faster, in a corner. I've never had a track marshall call me out on any of my passes though, although i'm wary of thinking that the lack of someone yelling at me is the same as them saying it's ok.

Furthermore, i'd like to get passed by someone, see how better riders do it, and see what i can learn from them. I've rarely gotten passed at the track, and I'd like to be passed by someone who's more at my skill level. I've felt like the most i've learned has been when I've caught up to people, or they've caught up to me, passed me, and then we've gone back and forth for a bit until i finally pick up enough from them to stick a pass again.

The reasons i don't want to move up to the B group are:

I don't know how comfortable i am with someone screaming up on the inside and then slamming the door on me. I don't know if i'm "fast enough", however you judge that. I'm not sure if i belong there, or if i'll just be holding up everyone. Basically, i don't want to be in the way, the noob on the literbike that everyone (including myself) has bitched about before, and often with good reason.

Looking at it here, i should probably stop sandbagging and just go for it. I'll either make it or i won't...either way, it'll be my first time at Streets, so i figure a couple of sessions in the slower group will be excellent for me, to build my reference points and figure out exactly how the track turns. Once i've got some of those in hand, i can work on other things.

racerXgirl

04-27-2007, 04:49 PM

Sounds like to me you want to get into the B group for the right reasons. You've done what you can in the C group and you're ready to move on.

Some of the points that I was going to make, you've already made them :thumbup

So get on out there and let us know how it felt :teeth

Z3n

04-27-2007, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by racerXgirl
Sounds like to me you want to get into the B group for the right reasons. You've done what you can in the C group and you're ready to move on.

Some of the points that I was going to make, you've already made them :thumbup

So get on out there and let us know how it felt :teeth

Heh, i'll be sure to do that after streets...although it's not technically a trackday. :teeth

redline

04-27-2007, 06:01 PM

Lots of great points already addressed.

If you're on the fence about signing up for "B" group track days, you might try Keigwins because they have a "B-" and a "B+" group. The B- allows inside & outside passing. The participants are usually faster and smoother than "C."

Another idea would be to take a novice track class/school to drill in some good habits and then go into "B"

Christieland

04-27-2007, 06:29 PM

Z3n, darling, start your own thread! This was a question from the possibly aptly named Outta Control about what newer, C group riders should do and think about to improve. :p

Outta Control, to answer your question, I will quote JnglstTICAL, my friend Calvin, and say "seat time, seat time, seat time." This is what he told me as I was getting my license and just starting out.

Also, target fixation is a killer in the beginning (and later on too actually). There is a good exercise in one of Keith Code's books that walks you through focusing your eyes on a fixed object in the room where you're reading, something on the wall maybe six to ten feet in front of you. Without removing your gaze from that point, you one by one focus on other points around that point, all around in your periphery. Being good at this enables you to continue looking through your turn to your exit while still being able to keep tabs on things like how close you might be to the rider in front of you, why there's a loose cow on the side of the road, et cetera. If you find yourself fixating on an improper object while going through a turn at speed, forcefully will yourself to look away and point your head in the direction you wish to go. Many times I've wondered whether or not I'd make it through a turn and I just kept looking as far through the turn as I could...and praying. I was probably barely leaned over, too, so at that point I knew it could physically be done, I just had to trust my bike and trust myself.

And speaking of group twisty rides, don't follow the person in front of you too closely. You'll start to follow his line and do what he does, and he may be an idiot. Keep yourself riding your own ride and practicing the things that people you trust have told you.

Find people you trust who you know are good riders, ride with them and ask them for feedback. People tell me it's harder for guys to do this than for girls, but whatever, put the ego down and just study this like you're in college and you actually care. Clearly you do since you posted a thread asking about it.

Good luck!

And Z3n, just get over your bad self and put your ass in B group. If you find it's affecting your lines or your mojo, go back to C. No big deal, usually. :)

Z3n

04-27-2007, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Christieland
Z3n, darling, start your own thread! This was a question from the possibly aptly named Outta Control about what newer, C group riders should do and think about to improve. :p

Outta Control, to answer your question, I will quote JnglstTICAL, my friend Calvin, and say "seat time, seat time, seat time." This is what he told me as I was getting my license and just starting out.

Also, target fixation is a killer in the beginning (and later on too actually). There is a good exercise in one of Keith Code's books that walks you through focusing your eyes on a fixed object in the room where you're reading, something on the wall maybe six to ten feet in front of you. Without removing your gaze from that point, you one by one focus on other points around that point, all around in your periphery. Being good at this enables you to continue looking through your turn to your exit while still being able to keep tabs on things like how close you might be to the rider in front of you, why there's a loose cow on the side of the road, et cetera. If you find yourself fixating on an improper object while going through a turn at speed, forcefully will yourself to look away and point your head in the direction you wish to go. Many times I've wondered whether or not I'd make it through a turn and I just kept looking as far through the turn as I could...and praying. I was probably barely leaned over, too, so at that point I knew it could physically be done, I just had to trust my bike and trust myself.

And speaking of group twisty rides, don't follow the person in front of you too closely. You'll start to follow his line and do what he does, and he may be an idiot. Keep yourself riding your own ride and practicing the things that people you trust have told you.

Find people you trust who you know are good riders, ride with them and ask them for feedback. People tell me it's harder for guys to do this than for girls, but whatever, put the ego down and just study this like you're in college and you actually care. Clearly you do since you posted a thread asking about it.

Good luck!

And Z3n, just get over your bad self and put your ass in B group. If you find it's affecting your lines or your mojo, go back to C. No big deal, usually. :)

I am a newer C group rider...unless you're saying "new" and "c group rider", in which case, i'm only 1 out of the 2. :laughing

I blew my engine 2 sessions into my first trackday, so i didn't get that much out of it...and the second was on other people's bikes,so i did my best to not beat the crap out of their motorcycles.

I thought Outta control was asking what new C group riders were dealing with, considering he's been a coach for a long time...i figured he was doing research for his students. :laughing

Christieland

04-27-2007, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Z3n
I am a newer C group rider...unless you're saying "new" and "c group rider", in which case, i'm only 1 out of the 2. :laughing

I blew my engine 2 sessions into my first trackday, so i didn't get that much out of it...and the second was on other people's bikes,so i did my best to not beat the crap out of their motorcycles.

I thought Outta control was asking what new C group riders were dealing with, considering he's been a coach for a long time...i figured he was doing research for his students. :laughing
Oh, my bad. The way he worded his first post it confoozed me. Well, hopefully someone somewhere out there will find something useful in my post... :blush

Sorry to hear about your engine. Rock on at the CLASS school, and let us know how it is!

EbolaMonkey

04-27-2007, 09:11 PM

i think for me, the biggest thing I really want some tutelage in is proper body positioning throughout turns and other situations...

i understand the basic idea ... u want to move your weight along with your bike through a turn to minimize lean angles.. and its best to do this right before the turn in preparation..

but yea proper body positioning is a mystery to me... how far up or back should i be sitting... should i be supporting all my forward weight on my knees with my back straight? (this puts a lot of strain on my back hah)

sometimes i wonder if being 6'2 makes the motions a little more awkward for me...

Outta Control

04-27-2007, 09:45 PM

Christie no worries I am trying to determine what (in general) most students or C based riders would like to work on.

Z3n

04-28-2007, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by EbolaMonkey
i think for me, the biggest thing I really want some tutelage in is proper body positioning throughout turns and other situations...

i understand the basic idea ... u want to move your weight along with your bike through a turn to minimize lean angles.. and its best to do this right before the turn in preparation..

but yea proper body positioning is a mystery to me... how far up or back should i be sitting... should i be supporting all my forward weight on my knees with my back straight? (this puts a lot of strain on my back hah)

sometimes i wonder if being 6'2 makes the motions a little more awkward for me...

I used to sit upright, and slow the bike with my legs, until Doc Wong was nice enough to show me that if i bend my arms, i can come in at a much better angle for steering inputs, and rest on tank with my chest. Also, while it feels a little different, the bike seems to go through the turn with remarkably less lean angle for a given corner speed. Hanging off like this means i have to be going faster to drag a knee for a given amount of lean angle. In the end, though, you'll try a bunch of different styles and find what works best for you. There's many different styles, and it's more than possible to ride fast using all of them. Even at the higheset levels, you'll see that some riders hang off more or less than others. The difference in the style are more subtle there, but they're still present.

dubels

04-30-2007, 05:50 PM

throttle control, bodying positioning, racing lines (including safe outside passing techniques), brake markers, being comfortable on a race track without looking back, suspensions adjustments (how to read your tire).

Basicly what Z2 has to offer in its novice school. It also helps to read twist of the wrist II. I haven't finished it but from what I have read and Z2 school I have become 10x smoother and faster without even dragging my knee yet and started passing people on the outside during my second trackday. I suggest for every C group rider to try at least two-three session with the suspension setup that they use for the street that way they can leanr the track and get comfortable faster but once you get going suspension adjustments really allow you to fly.

NorCal Factory

05-07-2007, 04:16 PM

1.) As Yogi Berra would say... Don't try to go too fast, too fast

2.) If you are passing most of the people in your group and have makers for your braking, turn-in points and apexes and can hit them consistently while using 2/3 of the track - ask the track day provider to try the next group.

Most people agree that B groups seem to have more incidents and disparity of riding skill.

A lot of time the B- or C group allows for more consistent lap times - it's easier to get by them, then you have open track.

Ask for help from the instructors, read TOTW and other books and apply them. Work from a plan for each session - with notes.

Go to Keigwins novice school.

Espumoso

05-07-2007, 11:30 PM

Having done a single Z2 day in the novice school, on my next track day I'll be focusing on input controls (braking, downshifting, throttle control). I was pretty inconsistent in all three areas and it makes braking markers, entry points, etc much more difficult to use effectively; which would be tier 2 for me at this point.

Also in tier 1 are speed appropriate lines that allow safe outside passing by faster riders, or vice-versa if you're doing the passing.

Down the list for me are racing lines, body positioning--unless it is really bad, or you have a bike without much clearance.

Finally, and I don't think this was stressed enough (in the classroom) is all things *mental*. For new track riders there is a ton floating around in your head and it gets tiring.

My instructor at Z2 recommended skipping an afternoon session because she could tell my mind was fading.

Best advice ever. Went out after resting the noodle and had the best laps of the day.

uraniaclio

05-20-2007, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by NorCal Factory

A lot of time the B- or C group allows for more consistent lap times - it's easier to get by them, then you have open track.

I found the exact opposite. My lap times varied by 12 seconds and T-Hill and 7 at Infineon. In B, I was within 3 seconds at Infineon and 3 seconds at T-Hill. A lot easier to run consistent laps without traffic for me. I'm a slow noob though. Good passing skills takes some time I think. Tough to work on fast lines when you're taking funky lines through majority of turns trying to pass. I got called out bad for bad lines last track day even though I was passing.

I think you can learn faster in C group. Running slower allows you to correct the bad things you're doing at a slower pace quicker.
But there is certain unpredictability you have to get used to and deal with. For sure B group allows u to go faster. But I also hear B group has the most bad crashes.

nickler

06-02-2007, 12:18 PM

I moved up to B group after I started passing the same people in a session. It has its pros and cons-- yes alot more egos there and you definitly have to watch out for a lot of 1ks parked in the corners but you can never get faster in the c group. If your riding around passing everyone in C group it is not fair to them because they are there to ride with the same paced people. Look PTT does an excelent job of weeding out the out of control guys and reminding them why they are there and I am sure the other trackday providers do the same. A great pro is getting behind that guy who is a little faster and watching his lines and braking points for awhile. You also get more comfortable being passed.

caponerd

06-02-2007, 03:21 PM

Z3n, don't the coaches invite you to join the B group when they think you're ready?

From what you're saying, it seems like you ought to be riding with the B group. (keeping in mind, I'm still a "c-group" rider myself)
Once I think I'm ready to move up, I plan to just ask one of the coaches if he/she thinks I'm ready for it. Have you talked to them about it?

Z3n

06-02-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by caponerd
Z3n, don't the coaches invite you to join the B group when they think you're ready?

From what you're saying, it seems like you ought to be riding with the B group. (keeping in mind, I'm still a "c-group" rider myself)
Once I think I'm ready to move up, I plan to just ask one of the coaches if he/she thinks I'm ready for it. Have you talked to them about it?

I haven't done an open trackday since then, i did however do the reg pridmore class. They moved me into the "A" group in the middle of my second session. (Reg Pridmore classes only have 2 groups) I'm going with the B group for sure on my next trackday though, it was simply a passing fest in the B group at the pridmore class.

I should note however, that there was a much wider assortment of bikes at the pridmore class then there would be at your typical trackday. Most of those people probably wouldn't have been on a track otherwise.

Out of all of the riders at the trackday, the only ones that were passing me were the track instructors and this one amazing kid on an Kawi Green SV650. I figure that most of the other people were running around my pace, maybe a little faster, maybe a little slower. There were few enough people in the A group (around 8-10) that most of us spread out pretty far and pretty much had the track to ourselves as we wanted. Also, there was a lot less ego clashing there...people were more interested in their pace, not the pace of those around them. It was actually a really good environment for working on my abilities and techniques rather than worrying about some jackass stuffing me. Also, it certainly didn't hurt to have Reg there to help out! :teeth

Var

06-06-2007, 03:46 PM

reading this thread helped me out a lot. I'm doing my first trackday on the 16th and i've signed up for C-group although everyone says i'll do fine in B-group. I'm glad i signed up for C now after reading this thread.

Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

afm199

06-06-2007, 05:13 PM

Ask instructor to ride with you and make an evaluation.

Reggie A group is like medium B group in other outfits.

Z3n

06-06-2007, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Var
Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

Nope. He's the rider in front, he has right of way, it's my job to execute the pass safely and considerately. The speed difference can be extreme, but if it is that extreme, you should be in the next group up. Also, you'll learn to ID the slower people by their bikes, and when you see them coming up you'll know to be careful, to make sure you're not closing too fast.

Also, vision lines, lane space, etc. is all entirely different on the track. It's really not that big a deal, you just have to get used to the idea of passing people. I had never done a midcorner pass before i got to the track. Also, you've got so much more LOS through the corners at the tracks that i've been through, you'd have to be really unaware to bash into someone midcorner. There's typically only a few riders out in your section if things are spaced out right, so you typically have a good idea of who's in front of you. Those behind you you shouldn't worry about. Just try not to push them off the track as they come around you ;) :laughing

Honestly, 90% of my passing was done in the straights anways. It's really easy to pass on the straights regardless of what bike you're running in the C group (anything but a 250, that is), because most of the people on literbikes aren't even full on the gas down the straights...and if you're decently skilled, you can pull enough corner speed that their HP advantage is almost non-existant. Also, most of them will roll off the gas super early so if you're willing to make and trust your braking markers, you'll have no problem passing there too.

Start out in the C group. You've never been on the track before, right? It helps to have some idea of where you're going before you get blown off your bike over and over. In my opinion, as long as you can find a good place to run on your own (get out early or hotpit to wait for a clear spot on the track), C group is ideal for building comfort, lines, etc. on the track. You don't have to worry about someone stuffing you or anything,, it's pretty laid back, and if you feel that you should be moved up, talk to an instructor and they'll help you figure out where you should be. I probably would have been ok in the B- group on my 2nd trackday, but i chose to stick with the C group for my comfort and probably learned more that way. My next trackday, though, i'm going to move to the B group. It's time, i think.

Ernie, thanks for the heads up...good to know i'll be ok in the B group at my next trackday.

uraniaclio

06-06-2007, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Var
reading this thread helped me out a lot. I'm doing my first trackday on the 16th and i've signed up for C-group although everyone says i'll do fine in B-group. I'm glad i signed up for C now after reading this thread.

Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

Var,
It's better to start off low and move up. First track days can be overwhelming with nerves and anxiety so last thing you want is to feel pressured to "go" from the first lap. Most are real good about moving riders up. All you have to do is ask.

You can drag knee being the backmarker in C. You should focus on clean lines and smooth riding. It will be a blast.

EDIT: I've ridden like 9 days in C and I finally moved up when some friends started giving me a hard time jokingly. I was planning on riding the entire season in C to be honest with you. I enjoyed riding C longer than your average rider because it seemed to slow the track down mentally for me. My ego can take double digit track days riding C. :)

Var

06-06-2007, 08:24 PM

i don't care if i'm the slowest guy out there. i just don't want to be a danger to anyone, or anyone to be a danger to me, and not have to slow down every few corners, or not have someone else slow down for me every few corners..that's why after all there are 3 separate groups. I don't see it as an ego thing so much as a practical decision. But i've also heard B riders can range from anyone going balls out running a 2:20 to people just riding calm 2:10's . I'll hang out in C group for as long as i feel is necessary.
I'm not gonna push it, but i'm not gonna take it slow just for the sake of it. I'll ride my own pace and see how it goes.

uraniaclio

06-06-2007, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Var
i don't care if i'm the slowest guy out there. i just don't want to be a danger to anyone, or anyone to be a danger to me, and not have to slow down every few corners, or not have someone else slow down for me every few corners..that's why after all there are 3 separate groups. I don't see it as an ego thing so much as a practical decision. But i've also heard B riders can range from anyone going balls out running a 2:20 to people just riding calm 2:10's . I'll hang out in C group for as long as i feel is necessary.
I'm not gonna push it, but i'm not gonna take it slow just for the sake of it. I'll ride my own pace and see how it goes.

Just try C and if you feel like you're not getting anything out of it, then ask an instructor or the grid manager. B can run the entire gamut. Some B riders should be in C and some could be in A. Passing can get a bit aggressive in B and B tends to have the most crashes. I've found it to be more aggressive but more predictable than C. C can get a little unpredictable at times with riders steering out wide and braking where there's no need to but you learn to anticipate and deal with it. That being said, being the slow guy is more fun than being the fast guy. The track is more open. :p

Var

06-18-2007, 04:25 PM

just thought it would be relevant to post here after my first trackday.

my impressions of c group

at first everyone pretty much starts off really slow. some people pick up the pace, and some don't. the track is no place to cruise, and there were a few people literally cruising that could have got the same experience on skyline going the speed limit.don't mean to bash anyone though . most of C group including myself vastly improved throughout the day. after all I guess that's why c group is there.
it's my own fault for not moving up to B until the last session of the day.

the difference between b and c was night and day.

c is like being on woodside rd on a weekend. u may catch a couple corners by yourself, but surely there are slower people ahead, and when u pass them there are tons more ahead. I didn't realize how much focus I was losing until I went to B

b group was cool. after I did my warm up lap I was able to pass 3 people and nobody passed me, so I was probably going the average B pace. the track felt like it was my own. It actually felt like a track instead of woodside rd.

my advice is if ur passing more than 2-3 people on every lap in C, u should go to B and have a taste. PTT was okay about group jumping and actually encouraged ppl to step up into faster groups. if B then seems too fast then tell the track coordinator ur not comfy and wanna step down. there's no pleasure being king of the hill in group C. go to B and follow faster riders and see what they're doing different. then the same up to A group eventually .

Z3n

06-18-2007, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Var
just thought it would be relevant to post here after my first trackday.

my impressions of c group

at first everyone pretty much starts off really slow. some people pick up the pace, and some don't. the track is no place to cruise, and there were a few people literally cruising that could have got the same experience on skyline going the speed limit.don't mean to bash anyone though . most of C group including myself vastly improved throughout the day. after all I guess that's why c group is there.
it's my own fault for not moving up to B until the last session of the day.

the difference between b and c was night and day.

c is like being on woodside rd on a weekend. u may catch a couple corners by yourself, but surely there are slower people ahead, and when u pass them there are tons more ahead. I didn't realize how much focus I was losing until I went to B

b group was cool. after I did my warm up lap I was able to pass 3 people and nobody passed me, so I was probably going the average B pace. the track felt like it was my own. It actually felt like a track instead of woodside rd.

my advice is if ur passing more than 2-3 people on every lap in C, u should go to B and have a taste. PTT was okay about group jumping and actually encouraged ppl to step up into faster groups. if B then seems too fast then tell the track coordinator ur not comfy and wanna step down. there's no pleasure being king of the hill in group C. go to B and follow faster riders and see what they're doing different. then the same up to A group eventually .

Cool, glad to hear you had a good time! :cool

Grunz

06-19-2007, 02:25 PM

One of the things thats on my mind is what hard braking and downshifting will be like from a fast long straight into a tight turn - say like into turn 14 at thill which is going to be my first trackday soon.

The other thing is being leaned over for a long time at high speed - like turn 2 at thill.

Despite the two items above i'm not sure what speeds will be like in C group - will it feel fast or will it feel not so fast since I've been pushing it on the street in less than ideal track like visibility situations. Donno.

Finally, I'm curious if i'll be able to fry up some eggs on the asphalt at thill on July 21.

:laughing

Var

06-20-2007, 12:19 PM

grunz..turn 14 is technically a hard braking zone, but not for c-group guys like you and I. You'll be braking before the bridge in the morning, then likely at or after later on, or on another day. I would worry about 11 more. You come out of 10 and you almost immediately have to get on the brakes into 11, and it's a lower speed turn than what it looks like. Lots of people go off track on 11. There were times i came out of 10, straightened up and kinda forgot how hard i had to brake..didn't go offtrack, but one second later and i would have.

uraniaclio

06-20-2007, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Grunz
One of the things thats on my mind is what hard braking and downshifting will be like from a fast long straight into a tight turn - say like into turn 14 at thill which is going to be my first trackday soon.

The other thing is being leaned over for a long time at high speed - like turn 2 at thill.

Despite the two items above i'm not sure what speeds will be like in C group - will it feel fast or will it feel not so fast since I've been pushing it on the street in less than ideal track like visibility situations. Donno.

Finally, I'm curious if i'll be able to fry up some eggs on the asphalt at thill on July 21.

:laughing

Grunz,
Have your suspension set up by Dave Moss and keep an eye on the zip tie if u have stock forks. Bottoming out might be an issue if you're not smooth on the front brake and overbrake (it's a problem for me now even though I have pretty stiff stock springs).

Grunz

06-20-2007, 03:26 PM

Thanks guys.

I've just had my suspension set up by Dave - he did a great job nad the bike feels a lot better for faster riding.

PazzoSteve

07-07-2007, 09:30 AM

Z3n,

I am a little in front of you with track day experience I think, even though you are probably are faster than me and certainly got the body postion advantage...and thanks again for your comments.

I have run a total of 4 track days and all of it in C group. I am going to run B at Infineon in August with Z2 and I am comfortable with it for the following reasons, some of which you have mentioned:

1) Generally I can carry more corner speed than most but not all C group riders.

2) I also pass a reasonable number on the straightaways.

3) Generally I can also brake later going into turns. A lot of the less experienced liter bike riders really approach turns slowly.

I continue to struggle with passing in or around corners and short straightaways in C in part because a lot of the riders are so unpredictable. A huge advantage to B group is that most all riders will hold a consistent line and in general are faster. In fact at Willow Springs I was doing open laps and there was a school going on and they were following the leader working on the correct line. In turn 2 which is a right hand sweeper I took an outside line (per the rules...) and began to move past the group when one of the riders decided to pop out of the line right into my line. I had to grab a ton of brake and managed to avoid him.

Another good thing thing, IMHO, is knowing your lap times. I have tracked my mean time as well as the fastest lap (which generally is the lap where I am not impedded by slower riders) and then discuss those with an on track instructor and used that as at least one gauge to determine if I can keep up in B. That said, when I am working on BP or other skills, I don't care at all about lap times.

Finally, as far as lines are concerned, I have have become more comfortable with it by:

1) Tagging an instructor and asking him to show me the line for a few laps.

2) The very best thing I did was at Willow Springs with Cal-Trackxperience where at lunch Todd (Owner) loaded a bunch of us up in a pickup truck and we drove the track and sighted the entry, apex and exits. When I went out for my first afternoon session I went up a gear at every location on the track. If I took a turn in 3rd, I was not going in 4th etc... This was HUGE but rarely practical.

3) Late apex'ing seems to work a lot of the time.

4) The schools really help.

Good Luck!

Steve

nweaver

07-11-2007, 11:42 AM

A strong second on Keigwin's B- group.

I'm a SLOW track rider, 2:37 at sears and proud of it :teeth, which is slow in the B- group (there were only perhaps one, maby two people slower).

The B- group is reasonably fast (a few people were turning ~2:10s or so before moving to the B+) but very polite (there was a guy with his young daugher on the back of his GSX-R, very cute,).

There were only about 3-4 passes of me the whole day got me in the "geez, you don't need to bother passing so close" thought, and only one where I needed to alter my line at all and I was not taking a very good line through that turn anyway.

B+ (or normal B) is often a massive crashfest, and it was somewhat on monday.

B- was not, there were a couple but the big one of those (which black-flagged the track for a few minutes) was a mechanical, not a rider error.

At the same time, there were only one (that I know of) rider who didn't really belong as it was his first trackday. But he got a lot better after I talked to him at lunch and gave him the whole "don't look back EVER, its NOT YOUR PROBLEM" lecture.

So I strongly second that B- is a good place to learn to go significantly faster than a C-group, but without having the massive egos of the normal B group crashfest.

Z3n

07-12-2007, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by nweaver
So I strongly second that B- is a good place to learn to go significantly faster than a C-group, but without having the massive egos of the normal B group crashfest.

This is what concerns me about moving into the B group at a track. I'm not out there to race someone, I'm out there to work on my abilities and have a good time. If i wanted some dude stuffing me in a corner, i'd go racing, and i will. But i don't want to deal with some fuckwit trying to emulate the hayden/vermeulen on me, and promptly taking me out. I have no idea what my laptimes are...:laughing

PazzoSteve

07-12-2007, 03:04 PM

Guys,

Good discussion.

My first track day was at Infineon on a cold march morning in 'C' group. The most crashes of the day award went to "b" group. The main cause was, yes, hot shot 'b' go fast attitude combined with not warming up their tires. Lost 3-4 riders in the first or second session. Totals for the day...1 crash in A, 1 in C, 8 in B.

My next track day was at Button Willow in 'C' group. Hot shots from a club from the central valley combined with 5-6 riders that were very slowwwwwwww. It was a mess. On this particular day, 1 crash in B and several in C.

The bottom line is, IMHO, that you probably trade one set of problems for another between B and C. It also depends on who the track provider is. I have not run with Keigwins as yet but I have heard good things about them. Also the track makes a big difference. Wide track...Good track.

PS

nweaver

07-12-2007, 05:46 PM

Pazzo: Which provider? I'd be concerned about a provider who would let the hotshots in the C group rather than putting them into B group.

Z3n: Then DEFINATLY Keigwin's B- is for you. You got the speed and faster riders, almost all EXPERIENCED riders, but it is generally the low-ego riders.

The couple who were obviously sandbagging into B- were obviously instructing their SOs and generally following said SOs and their pace, or dragging their kid around on the back of the bike.

PazzoSteve

07-12-2007, 06:54 PM

I don't want to point to the provider because they don't control the quality of the rider to any real degree. They are running a business for the most part and I have seem the quality of the event turn on the quality of riders and the number of riders. More riders, worse experience. Of course the implication of that is, smaller rider groups and the $$$ increase substantially.

The other reason I don't want to point to a provider is because the overall best experience I had was the most expensive day to day, the least crowded and was the one where I came the nearest to crashing when someone popped out in front of me.

Really my main point is that C is no picnic at all and has its own set of issues causing me to really want to get up to B. I know there are going to be issues in B, just different ones.

I am sure A is going to be perfect! :laughing

PS