F40-ogp Retarded Gridding

[Trackho]

I want to prefece this post by saying that I appreciate/respect our AFM president: Having said that, I think he has a serious "blind spot" in his gridding "decisions".

Am I the only one that thought starting the F2 race in the wave before F40 was the most IDIOTIC decision Kevin Smith has made to date??--that race was pathetic and dangerous as fuck.

Now starting the 750s in front of the OGP might have been a sane plan--but all these slow-ass 600s trying to race "up a class" was fucking ridiculous as well.

As it appears that Kevin Smith either has complete disregard for our(my) saftey or is stupid--frankly--I am agast.

I will make a proposal to the board that the saftey comittee gets final approval on which waves start in front of which--and the chairman of the saftey committe is empowered to make "race day" adjustments as required.

Funny how this comes on the heals of another BAD decision; Namely, one of our most respected/fastest racers who easily qualifies under ANY KFG rule (as televised by AMA )didnt race because Kevin insisted he do something both dangerous and stupid.

Something has to give. We really need to fix the "easy stuff" before someone else dies in the AFM.

[ZXR400SP]

Sorry if my slow ass 600 got in your way, you passed me on the way into 7 and I said to myself at the apex, Gruetter, get the fack out of the way your slowing me down. Then you made the guy in front of me check up which made for a easy pass on the exit:laughing

[GPgofast]

I have to agree with Jeff on this one. I was using FII guys ALL race for berms(sorry if I offended anyone). I met my first FII guy on the FIRST lap and had my last encounter on the FINAL turn of the LAST lap. Lots of fun.

I only was passed by 3 or 4 Open GP guys in the 750 Prod race and that was actually cool...Martin Swarcz passed my on the outside of T1 and I thought I was on the rumble strip. WAY cool pass...

But I do agree with Jeff. FII was gridded behind us at BW, and MAYBE the FII leaders had a small problem, but I guarantee everyone, the rider on the 125 that Thomas Bolles was passing on the outside of T11 had a MAJOR pucker factor when I passed them BOTH on the INSIDE of T11. 125's, 750's and 1000's do NOT mix well together...

[lokisdog]

I'd agree as well, even with my very crappy start I was collecting 125's like crazy. I think maybe the AFM forgot that a ton of 125's also run in FII, and while the 250 guys aren't an issue the 125's are. Sears is too tight and compact a circuit to have bikes on track running 2:00 or worse a lap different in front of F40.


I'm sure they would have preferred not being used for target practice as well, I can imagine many of the passes I and others were doing, while we tried our best, just killed whatever drive or momentum that they had and really screwed them up as well.

Please fix this one guys.

Otherwise thanks for a great weekend... ;-)

[Trackho]

I will post a "toned down" version of this on the AFM website--please back me up you guys--lets fix thius BEFORE someone gets killed/Paralyzed--Thanks

[RacerRob]

I completely gave up trying to 'win' OGP as the traffic was just impossible. I was thinking today that I might adopt the Foster methodology. He only raced FP later in his career, after the OGP thing it makes you think.

[tracksidemoto]

I'd have to agree, what the fork was he thinking??? Let's grid the 125's and the open super bikes together and see what kind of carneige we can create.

As far as Ken not getting to use the KFG rule, once again what the FORK was he thinking??? Kevin must have zero common sence!!! If you have to think for even a second if Ken should be granted the KFG rule than you should be banned from the AFM paddoc.

I think Kevin Smith must be related to GEORGE W. BUSH. He seems to be lacking the same basic common sence and walks around with the same dumb look on his face. Sorry Kev but I will be looking forward to you leaving your position as pres.

On a more positive note, THANKS TO EVERYONE for the great weekend!!!

See ya all next month

Pat
AFM 110

[MSzwarc]

I don't think I have ever passed more people in a single race than in that OGP race. I passed in places I have never passed before, like outside of T1 :) among others. I would like to make a suggestion that when you get grids with similar speed bikes like OGP and 750s, let the smaller grid go first...it makes for less traffic for the leaders and less problems in general.

-Martin

[TWF]

there is easy fix for ogp,get them off the schedule :)

[HiggyB]

Originally posted by lokisdog
I'm sure they would have preferred not being used for target practice as well, I can imagine many of the passes I and others were doing, while we tried our best, just killed whatever drive or momentum that they had and really screwed them up as well.
As a newbie to FII (after spending time in 250SB) I'm a backmarker in my class and as such I had a lot of F40 folks passing me during that race (at times it was one at a time, in other cases I was sandwiched on both sides). I did my best to hold solid lines, I hope that worked out well enough*. All in all I never felt like danger was imminent but I feel that was due to some good effort from the F40 riders that passed me (even if those passes caused me to lose my drive a bit). A change here is well worth discussing as the/my experience may not be the same in the future...

GP and others: I take no offense from what's being said here, this isn't about ego it's about safety and y'all are raising a very fair points in my opinion.


*If anyone wants to berate me, offer me advice or criticisms then I'm all ears (#942, black/white/blue TZ250 - I've had my bike painted since the photo in my avatar ;)). I know I've got lots to learn and as such I'm open to the advice others might have to share to make me a better/safer rider out there. :thumbup

[Jackdog]

Both races ogp and f40 felt like a endurance race to me, it wasn't about how fast you went but can you finish the race without t-boning someone. Like Martin said I have never passed so many riders in one race.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by HiggyB
As a newbie to FII (after spending time in 250SB) I'm a backmarker in my class and as such I had a lot of F40 folks passing me during that race (at times it was one at a time, in other cases I was sandwiched on both sides). I did my best to hold solid lines, I hope that worked out well enough*. All in all I never felt like danger was imminent but I feel that was due to some good effort from the F40 riders that passed me (even if those passes caused me to lose my drive a bit). A change here is well worth discussing as the/my experience may not be the same in the future...

GP and others: I take no offense from what's being said here, this isn't about ego it's about safety and y'all are raising a very fair points in my opinion.


*If anyone wants to berate me, offer me advice or criticisms then I'm all ears (#942, black/white/blue TZ250 - I've had my bike painted since the photo in my avatar ;)). I know I've got lots to learn and as such I'm open to the advice others might have to share to make me a better/safer rider out there. :thumbup

No berating at all

I am curious though--I came into T6 approx lap 3--and there you were-- I was prolly going 30-40MPH+ faster and had to check up-no biggie--I started to go around you on the outside and one of my competitors "grazed" me on the outside--he prolly had a 40-50mph delta on me--that was NUTs--if we would have hit a tad harder--all three of us would have gone down hard in one of the worst spots on the track--I am pretty sure I have it on video--I will check it tonight--any of this sound familair??

This had nothing to do with you or your riding--just an assinine decision made by "the management"

I ride a red Honda 1000RR (#704), the other guy Bouch rides a yellow/white GXR(#848) with a big skull and crossbones on his leathers

[ZXR400SP]

I too wondered about the gridding when I rolled up for the start, I knew I'd see the OGP leaders come by soon enough. I hope I didn't hold anyone up much, it seemed like I got passed in good spots, like the exit of 6 and entrance to 7. I know a held Mesa up a bit, sorry Rob, saw the wheel you showed me and ran it deep in 7 so you could come underneath without too much drama.

[HiggyB]

Originally posted by Trackho
any of this sound familair??
Yes, that does sound familiar but from my in-race POV it seemed close but not particularly dangerous. Now reading another POV it really does emphasize the point you're making here. Any video you have to post would be interesting to watch, please do share it if you can.


Edit: FYI, I posted a reply on the AFM forums as well...

[jtigert]

My question is what was Open Gp intended for? We have FP and Open Superbike, plus Open production for those trying not to go too far with their budget, so as Zoran stated do we need so many 1000 classes, you guys tell me, if there is validity to the class keep it.

[RacerRob]

No problem Craig,

Nobody here is saying you or the rest of the racers did anything wrong. From my experience I think all you guys rode with your heads screwed on tight. Some of the passes we put down on yous were well. tight. And it was all good from both sides. But what we are saying is it was really just too much, too much passing period. Maybe too much cluster passing .... or is that a group pass? The three of us would come up on something like SIX of you and that happened more than one in the race. Just too nuts for my comfort.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by jtigert
My question is what was Open Gp intended for? We have FP and Open Superbike, plus Open production for those trying not to go too far with their budget, so as Zoran stated do we need so many 1000 classes, you guys tell me, if there is validity to the class keep it.


Jeff

Not sure FP is a fair comparison. It has a time cutoff, so not everyone who runs Open GP can/should run FP, as it should be given FP is supposed to be the 'best of the best' and you guys wouldn't be able to do the kind of racing you did this weekend if you started getting caught up with backmarkers, esp. given the longer length of the FP race.

The 600 and 750 guys have Prod, SB and F1 to enable them to do 3 races. most of the other classes also have a provision to run 3 races in a day, I think the 1000 riders should have the same opportunity. More seat time and given it's club racing the more racing opportunties the better.

[MSzwarc]

Originally posted by RacerRob
No problem Craig,

Nobody here is saying you or the rest of the racers did anything wrong. From my experience I think all you guys rode with your heads screwed on tight. Some of the passes we put down on yous were well. tight. And it was all good from both sides. But what we are saying is it was really just too much, too much passing period. Maybe too much cluster passing .... or is that a group pass? The three of us would come up on something like SIX of you and that happened more than one in the race. Just too nuts for my comfort.

Right on the money... When you pass 3 guys at the entrance to a corner, and 2 more at the exit of the same corner you start wondering what the odds are of one of those guys deciding at the last minute to change their line... Everyone did a good job for most part holding their lines, which made the close passes clean, so we can be here at work today sufing BARF :teeth

-Martin

[dgrace]

Originally posted by jtigert
My question is what was Open Gp intended for?

All those Ducati Desmosedici's that Alex has deposits on!

dave

[TWF]

Originally posted by lokisdog
Jeff



The 600 and 750 guys have Prod, SB and F1 to enable them to do 3 races. most of the other classes also have a provision to run 3 races in a day, I think the 1000 riders should have the same opportunity. More seat time and given it's club racing the more racing opportunties the better.
only 750's and 1000's have 3 classes.all others have provision to run up or down(twins) class.

[MSzwarc]

Originally posted by TWF
only 750's and 1000's have 3 classes.all others have provision to run up or down(twins) class.

Zoran,

If you give me an opportunity to run down a class, I'm there :)

-Martin

[TWF]

did not mean to say all have provision,all others except 1000's in one way or other.
600 running F1 is class up since 750 run in to also.
sv's can run open twins.
twins can run down class.
750's can run up in open.....
meaning only 1000's have specific 3 classes only for them.and 750's since you can count F1 as their class.

[ZXR400SP]

I didn't have any problems with being the passee but they were in good spots for me, the only tight pass was going into 9, and it would have been fine if the guy in front of me hadn't checked up on the brakes. I was hoping I could go to school as you guys went by me cause I've got a new skill set to learn on the 600. Oh and I only saw three 600's listed in the 750 race.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by TWF
did not mean to say all have provision,all others except 1000's in one way or other.
600 running F1 is class up since 750 run in to also.
sv's can run open twins.
twins can run down class.
750's can run up in open.....
meaning only 1000's have specific 3 classes only for them.and 750's since you can count F1 as their class.

I think we're saying the same thing, as I wasn't worried about runing up/down.

My point is up or down or sideways, most everyone has the chance to race is at least three races on Sunday even if they're not able to make the FP cutoff or over 40 years old (can't forget F40, the other 'restricted class' and my favorite one to race in).

So as Martin said unless you want to let us run 1000's down a class then we need to keep OGP to let the 1000's have 3 races also.

[TWF]

yes,but some get way more than others.which is my point.
some classes should be cut out of schedule and rest put together in way you dont have 75 bikes in 2 classes racing at same time.
number of races that you actually race is small,rest is bowling.this stuff is afm specific,no other club has this issues,from practice to races.afm has biggest number of entries and worst rule book in world.

[Trackho]

When did running the slowest 600s in the 750 class (and in front of OGP) come into "vogue"???--That shit has to be like over--NOW

[kevo]

125s can race FIII & FII
2T-250s can race FII & FI

The passes I saw in FII were clean.

If you look at the results, there were 9 FII best times at 1:57 and higher. I finished the race behind Garry Bannister. That's 20! Even if the waves were reversed, a lot of the FII grid would have been deep in to the F40 grid.

It's a bad pairing of classes. The 500TW class was a better pair for FII.

[TWF]

Originally posted by kevo


It's a bad pairing of classes. The 500TW class was a better pair for FII.
problem is that entry numbers per class are not same every time and Kevin has to pair classes different not to go over 75.
than there are those that bitch all the time if they start as second wave even if it makes more sense so he has to alternate them.
california politics :)

[kevo]

Originally posted by TWF
problem is that entry numbers per class are not same every time and Kevin has to pair classes different not to go over 75.
than there are those that bitch all the time if they start as second wave even if it makes more sense so he has to alternate them.
california politics :)

It is a miracle that FII and FIII have not been paired. :laughing

But the schedule for races 2, 3, & 4 are all the same pairings. FII is the first wave in all three schedules. The results would be similar if the F40 were the first wave. Almost as many FII racers would be almost as deep in the F40 grid.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by TWF
yes,but some get way more than others.which is my point.


Some do get more than others, but the ones who get less than 2 races usually choose to race a bike that's not very popular for lack of a better term.


some classes should be cut out of schedule and rest put together in way you dont have 75 bikes in 2 classes racing at same time.


Agreed, but why choose Open GP? Why not Formula SIngles 500 Twins, Super DIno, 250 SB and/or 450 Prod? All had less than 7 entries at Sears this weekend...

[TWF]

Originally posted by lokisdog


Agreed, but why choose Open GP? Why not Formula SIngles 500 Twins, Super DIno, 250 SB and/or 450 Prod? All had less than 7 entries at Sears this weekend...
because it is subject right now.
I said many times all the ones you mentioned should be cut out and whole class structure redone.
once you come up with good structure that does not date back to day harley davidson started production you make sure all have 3 races to race.than you split them up to novice and experts to lower number of bikes on grid.
we are in to 2 day racing already,so next step would be to fix structure and schedule.
instead we are fixing one problem at time and not going forward because another problem comes out of it.
we need less racers or better rule book.

[TWF]

Originally posted by lokisdog

Agreed, but why choose Open GP? Why not Formula SIngles 500 Twins, Super DIno, 250 SB and/or 450 Prod? All had less than 7 entries at Sears this weekend...
btw.getting rid of smallest classes does nothing for schedule.you have to cut out class that will make room for other.out of big classes open gp and f40 are first on list.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by TWF
btw.getting rid of smallest classes does nothing for schedule.you have to cut out class that will make room for other.out of big classes open gp and f40 are first on list.

Actually if you cut out enough of the smaller classes the aggregated savings does buy you some room.

I don't know how many started, but here's the finishers from the results pages Mike put up:

Formula Single - 2
500 Twin - 7
Super Dino - 2
250 SB - 5
450 Prod - 7

That's 23 grid spots freed up there

And if you mess with F-40 you'll have a riot on your hands, have you looked at the size of the class lately? Very popular...

[ZXR400SP]

Originally posted by Trackho
When did running the slowest 600s in the 750 class (and in front of OGP) come into "vogue"???--That shit has to be like over--NOW

Since they changed the run up a class rule. Look at the results, there were three 600's on the grid for the 750 race, you caught two of them, the rest were 636's or 750's. Had the grids been reversed it would have been the same for the leaders of the 750 grid. There were 31 finishers in both classes, the top five from 750P were faster overall than the top 5 from the OGP class.

And looking at lap times I might have had a better finish in OGP than the 750 class, ie, my 21st place slow ass 600 750P time was faster than 21st place in OGP. Kinda shoots a big hole in the OGP gotta go first argument doesn't it?

[Wild Child]

Originally posted by kevo
125s can race FIII & FII
2T-250s can race FII & FI

The passes I saw in FII were clean.

If you look at the results, there were 9 FII best times at 1:57 and higher. I finished the race behind Garry Bannister. That's 20! Even if the waves were reversed, a lot of the FII grid would have been deep in to the F40 grid.

It's a bad pairing of classes. The 500TW class was a better pair for FII.

I agree. This was only my 4th race, and last year I would typically have the top 10 650 twins pass me by the end of the race. I was right behind Kevyn yesterday, before crashing out on lap 6. So, assuming I finished behind him, that would have been twice as many F40 guys that passed me compared to the 650 twins. Not only was I struggling with my own lines, but they were being taken from me by much better/faster riders and I was constantly being pushed around. I'm all for being paired with another class.

[TWF]

Originally posted by lokisdog
Actually if you cut out enough of the smaller classes the aggregated savings does buy you some room.

I don't know how many started, but here's the finishers from the results pages Mike put up:

Formula Single - 2
500 Twin - 7
Super Dino - 2
250 SB - 5
450 Prod - 7

That's 23 grid spots freed up there

And if you mess with F-40 you'll have a riot on your hands, have you looked at the size of the class lately? Very popular...
not realy.if they are all in same race you would gain time for another race.
if they are paired with class of 40 bike grid and fit with it you gain nothing.
you dont want to eliminate class because of low entries so easy.650 twins used to be same way and look at it now.not only full grid but it created another class,F4.
I would combine them in one class instead eliminate,like 450 prod,450sb and 500 twins.if you put all this bikes in same class you get new class without eliminating anything,and you dont have to mix them with other classes.
some classes do need to be eliminated,like dyno,vintage..
to do it right you need to restructure all classes.if not you end up with same problem in short time.same problem just different classes.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
And looking at lap times I might have had a better finish in OGP than the 750 class, ie, my 21st place slow ass 600 750P time was faster than 21st place in OGP. Kinda shoots a big hole in the OGP gotta go first argument doesn't it?

So your logic is that the stupid slow traffic that the OGP bikes had to go thru had nothing to do with the aggregate slower times than the 750s that had NONE----youre just plain funny

[Trackho]

Originally posted by TWF
once you come up with good structure that does not date back to day harley davidson started production you make sure all have 3 races to race

arent SV650s just Harleys for girls anyway--ban em :p :p

Kurt grew a set and got on an R6

replace them with:

F40--Heavyweight
F40--Everything else--they can even be the 2nd wave

Problem Solved

[TWF]

Originally posted by Trackho
arent SV650s just Harleys for girls anyway--ban em :p :p


interestingly all weekend alone you turned only one lap that was barely faster than sv times.would that make you grandma :laughing

[Trackho]

Originally posted by TWF
interestingly all weekend alone you turned only one lap that was barely faster than sv times.would that make you grandma :laughing

Dont tell that to your boy Kurt cuz it will hurt him ALOT more than me--see FP:laughing :laughing :laughing

for your reference: In America the little numbers are better than the big ones, looks like Kurts replacement is slower than I thought--lame try--your Bullshit is pretty thick but weak ass--

RACE RESULTS FOR 650 TWINS
1 1 111 27 . HAGAN, JEFF OAKLAND 1 S04 650 01:46.739 5 Lap 5
2 2 728 27 . TULCHINSKY, AARON BAY POINT 1 S99 650 01:46.324 5 00:02.444
3 3 162 27 . AVANSINO, JAY FERNLEY 1 S07 650 01:47.103 5 00:04.992
4 4 208 27 . SEWELL, DAN SPARKS 1 S02 650 01:46.974 5 00:08.557
5 5 73 27 . CIVIELLO, DAVID ALAMEDA 1 S06 650 01:47.597 5 00:09.960


RACE RESULTS FOR FORMULA PACIFIC

16 16 704 39 . GRUETTER, JEFF LOS GATOS 1 H04 1000 01:45.877 9 01:20.755
17 17 7 39 . SPENCER, KURT RENO 1 Y06 600 01:47.152 9 01:22.304

[TWF]

he is actually doing pretty good for new bike,within 1 tenth of your time.
what is your excuse?:)

[TWF]

Originally posted by Trackho

TULCHINSKY, AARON BAY POINT 1 S99 650 01:46.324


RACE RESULTS FOR FORMULA PACIFIC

GRUETTER, JEFF LOS GATOS 1 H04 1000 01:45.877

you only got 100hp on him :)

[ZXR400SP]

Originally posted by Trackho
So your logic is that the stupid slow traffic that the OGP bikes had to go thru had nothing to do with the aggregate slower times than the 750s that had NONE----youre just plain funny

Sometimes I even make myself laugh though you do pretty good too. :laughing

No, my logic is that if you put OGP first, the 750's will have to deal with that same stupid slow traffic only they will be a 1000cc's of stupid slow traffic instead of 750. Yes the top three or four in OGP might go a bit faster with clear track but not so much that they deserve to be gridded first all the time if gridded together.

I have to assume that you had clear track in the open superbike race, correct? You went slightly faster in the OGP race and it appears you were pretty much by yourself with no one pulling you along either. You're just faster in traffic than with a tow is that it?
OGP GRUETTER, JEFF H04 1000 01:47.136 slower than the top 4 girlie bikes. :teeth :teeth :teeth

[jtigert]

Originally posted by TWF

to do it right you need to restructure all classes.if not you end up with same problem in short time.same problem just different classes.

I think the club needs to listen to Zoran on this one. We have too many people to please with all these small classes, and trying to squeeze them into a wave of any of the larger groups is always going to cause issues. We can take the daily schedule path of other org's, or a system that incorporates a structure based on our plan, but either way it's obvious we need to change something.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by TWF
you only got 100hp on him :)

My bike has 147 HP (I'll show you the dyno)--so your "wonder SVs" have 47HP--Wow thats pretty impressive shit--keep diggin:laughing :laughing :laughing :laughing

[AFM#719]

Originally posted by jtigert
I think the club needs to listen to Zoran on this one. We have too many people to please with all these small classes, and trying to squeeze them into a wave of any of the larger groups is always going to cause issues. We can take the daily schedule path of other org's, or a system that incorporates a structure based on our plan, but either way it's obvious we need to change something.

:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

[TWF]

Originally posted by Trackho
My bike has 147 HP (I'll show you the dyno)--so your "wonder SVs" have 47HP--Wow thats pretty impressive shit--keep diggin:laughing :laughing :laughing :laughing
any way you want to look at it you ride like old lady :laughing

[Holeshot]

With Tiggy on this one.

As far as putting OGP ahead of 750 prod, it's easier to pass a 750 on the straights than it is passing an OGP guy on a 750. We have to do it on corner entry alot of times.

[afm199]

Yep, damn girlie bikes

RACE RESULTS FOR FORMULA II, FORMULA 40
AMERICAN FEDERATION OF MOTORCYCLES
04/28/07 - 04/29/07
At: Infineon Raceway, Length: 2.52 miles
Elapsed time: 00:13:02
Best time: 01:45.622, on lap 2 by . HANFORD, JEFFRY L.
Margin of victory: 00:17.059
Printed on Sunday, April 29 19:47 2007
Results provided by KLB Kronos and dBcom RaceTime
Chief of T&S: Paddy Shopher
Signed:
Date:
Page 1
OA CL Veh# Class Name City and State Yr Veh Make Disp. Best Time Laps Interval
9 1 224 24 . STUART, SPENCER FAIRFAX 1 Y06 600 01:46.060 6 00:31.976
11 2 111 24 . HAGAN, JEFF OAKLAND 1 S04 650 01:46.721 6 00:37.020
14 3 77 24 . THOMPSON, MIKE DUBLIN 1 S06 1000 01:47.333 6 00:41.952
17 4 37 24 . ANDERSON, BUD SAN RAMON 1 S07 1000 01:47.974 6 00:47.258
18 5 848 24 . BOUCH, WILLIAM P. HOLLISTER 1 S05 1000 01:47.564 6 00:47.509
23 6 704 24 . GRUETTER, JEFF LOS GATOS 1 H04 1000 01:47.789 6 00:52.752

[Trackho]

Originally posted by Holeshot
With Tiggy on this one.

As far as putting OGP ahead of 750 prod, it's easier to pass a 750 on the straights than it is passing an OGP guy on a 750. We have to do it on corner entry alot of times.

Berto I dont think anyone has an issue with the 750 guys--the OGP guys have been here before its a none issue--the problem arises with all the slower 600s racing up a class, I dont think Joy Higa rides a 750

I have this race on video--Ill bring it to the board meeting

Zoran--whatever

[ZXR400SP]

Jeff, You keep bringing up "All the slower 600s" in your argument, but there were only three in the 750P race, you caught two of them. One was me and I know I wasn't in the way because you passed me on the way into 7 and then I had to get back on the brakes because cause you were in the way. If I hadn't known you were in the OGP class I would have went right back by on the inside of you before the exit. And you bring up Joy Higa but she wasn't poking along dead last, in fact she finished 23rd ahead of 8 other 750's or 636's.

You may not have liked the traffic but it wasn't a bunch of 600's getting in your way. It was 750's.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
Jeff, You keep bringing up "All the slower 600s" in your argument, but there were only three in the 750P race, you caught two of them. One was me and I know I wasn't in the way because you passed me on the way into 7 and then I had to get back on the brakes because cause you were in the way. If I hadn't known you were in the OGP class I would have went right back by on the inside of you before the exit. And you bring up Joy Higa but she wasn't poking along dead last, in fact she finished 23rd ahead of 8 other 750's or 636's.

You may not have liked the traffic but it wasn't a bunch of 600's getting in your way. It was 750's.

Interesting--I'll check the video-Did the 750 class triple in size??Tons of yellow plates---I believe you if you say its so---I wasnt trying to pick on Joy in any way shape or form--her leathers are just very recognizable and I know she rides a 600--Ill post the vid tonight so we can all see the same thing

[ZXR400SP]

I'm just using the data on the PDF results, it shows 4 600's, Carlotta, & Spencer who you never saw, and me and Joy.

Except for the leader of OGP getting slowed down a bit by traffic, the times from both grids have very similar lap times top to bottom.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Trackho
Dont tell that to your boy Kurt cuz it will hurt him ALOT more than me--see FP:laughing :laughing :laughing

for your reference: In America the little numbers are better than the big ones, looks like Kurts replacement is slower than I thought--lame try--your Bullshit is pretty thick but weak ass--


come on trackho, show me a little love..

600 Prod.
14 14 7 42 . SPENCER, KURT RENO 1 Y06 600 01:45.989

Still need a lot of work though.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
I'm just using the data on the PDF results, it shows 4 600's, Carlotta, & Spencer who you never saw, and me and Joy.

Except for the leader of OGP getting slowed down a bit by traffic, the times from both grids have very similar lap times top to bottom.

This is correct, although you can't point to the laptimes, the OGP guys would have been going faster if they hadn't had to pick their way through the 750's...

So here's some semi-normalized data from the PDF's (yes I'm bored at work...):

First, remember the Sears race was a 7 lap race, not the usual 8. If it were 8 laps it would be worse.

There were 31 finishers in OGP and also 31 in 750 P. (coincidence? I think not... :cool )

Martin Szwarc, the winner of OGP, as well as Carman and Mesa who took 2nd and 3rd, caught and passed (22) 750P racers. This means they had to deal with 77% of the 750 Prod grid on their way to the checkered. They still managed to do 1:42's doing this.

Martin finished 33.9 seconds behind the 750P winner Scott Wilson.

29 of the 31 OGP finishers caught and passed at least one 750 Prod racer, that's 93%.

BTW Jeff passed 11 of the 750 Prod riders total, 2 were on 600's.

Compare this to BW, a full 6 lap race on a 3 mile course, so ~ 18 miles covered as opposed to ~ 16 miles at Sears, where OGP went in front of 750P

29 finishers in OGP, 39 in 750 Prod

The 750P front runners had to pass 13 OGP guys on their way, that's only 44% of the field.

Also only 13 of the 39 750P riders caught and passed an OGP rider, that means only 33% of the first wave (OGP) got caught by the second wave (750P) as opposed to 93% of the first wave (750P) getting caught by the second wave (OGP) at Sears.

Martin also won OGP at BW, he finished a full second ahead of Siglin the 750P winner.

Sears is a tighter track so theoretically it removes some of the HP advantage the 1000's have over the 750's, and BW is a more open track that rewards HP, so we should see the 750's having a hard time catching the 1000's at BW.

But to see that many 1000's catch 750's at Sears, seems to point to an issue to me.

I don't know if the amount of time between waves was the same or different, but I would assume no more than a 5 second or so difference, so I don't think that's the reason.

So, looks to me from this data that at least at Sears, 750P should always be gridded behind OGP.

[Holeshot]

That may seem so Eric, but try passing 1000's on a 750. I got that joy in Open Production and it ain't so fun...

HP always makes it easier to pass a slower bike with less skill. Give a guy less skill and more HP and he'll think he's racing you for position. I've been in the spot where OGP guys have severly fucked me out of a 2nd place. Just ask Garry....

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by Holeshot
That may seem so Eric, but try passing 1000's on a 750. I got that joy in Open Production and it ain't so fun...

HP always makes it easier to pass a slower bike with less skill. Give a guy less skill and more HP and he'll think he's racing you for position. I've been in the spot where OGP guys have severly fucked me out of a 2nd place. Just ask Garry....

Don't disagree, but there's not as many places at Sears where the HP makes that big a difference, esp. with the new T1, and you have to admit when you look at the percentages it's a pretty big difference to BW.

Of course in May we go in front of you guys, so if the 750P leaders make it through 70% or more of the OGP grid then the data is meaningless. But if they can't make it through even 50% like at BW then I think I'm onto something.

We'll need to see, gotta love that whole scientific method thing...:teeth

[Trackho]

Originally posted by Kurt
come on trackho, show me a little love..

600 Prod.
14 14 7 42 . SPENCER, KURT RENO 1 Y06 600 01:45.989

Still need a lot of work though.

Kurt--You were riding really well, the only place that you struggled was between 2 and 3A--I thougtht that I would kill you on the drive out of 3A--but you cranked thru there--I almopst started crying--All Good--and

Yes--I still luv u:laughing :laughing :laughing

Just trying to defend myself against the evil Zoran:p that thinks ridng a literbike around Infineon is the equivalent of "stealing candy from a baby"--he should try riding 150HP round Infineon and see what happens.

If he says he is too old, he is full of shit--Im 46

[TWF]

Originally posted by Trackho


Just trying to defend myself against the evil Zoran:p that thinks ridng a literbike around Infineon is the equivalent of "stealing candy from a baby"--he should try riding 150HP round Infineon and see what happens.

If he says he is too old, he is full of shit--Im 46
evil is 15-20hp away from you and older than you :laughing

[markermck]

Holeshot said:
...but try passing 1000's on a 750. I got that joy in Open Production and it ain't so fun...

---------------

Better yet, try passing them on a 600... I get that joy constantly in F40.

Trackho was particularly hard to pass. And dammmit, he got back around me when I ran off the track exiting the Carousel. Damn those high HP bikes. ;)

I must say, I like your idea for F40 though Jeff: F40 Heavyweight, and F40 Everything else. Heck, I might finally have a chance at an AFM trophy in such a case.

Incidentally, that's what WERA has done starting this year. F40 Hvy, F40 Mid, and F40 Light as separate classes, all running on same grid. Except they call it "Senior Superbike". Wow, how old does that sound?

[TWF]

Originally posted by markermck


Incidentally, that's what WERA has done starting this year. F40 Hvy, F40 Mid, and F40 Light as separate classes, all running on same grid. Except they call it "Senior Superbike". Wow, how old does that sound?
my goal is to win one of those races in my life :)
I guess I need to get me 1000cc.like Berto said,they are bitch to get around.

[OldCat]

winner this week in F40 was on a 600 IIRC.

[lokisdog]

So I posted this to the AFM site since I think Kevin only looks there, in response to a post he made about the difference in lines between the 2-strokes and 4-strokes and how the F-II guys complained the big bikes are hard to pass.

I think that's the major issue, that you have big bikes and small bikes that while they might be capable of running similar times, do it using very dissimilar lines and methods that place them in danger of running into each other. The 2-strokes have a hard time passing us 4-strokes and vice versa. It's dangerous for both groups, more so I think for the 125's. My 600lbs of combined rider and bike 1000 against 250lbs combined of combined 125 rider colliding is an ugly thought, more for the 125 rider than me, and the ‘swoopy’ lines the 2-stroke guys have to run to go fast are always going to make it an issue when they are on the track mingled with those of us who don’t run those kinds of lines.

There were 28 finishers in FII, Spencer Stuart blew through 20 of them on his way to the win in F-40, that's 71% of F-II he passed. Hagan did something similar.

As far as suggestions for improvement, here you go. The numbers in () are how many bikes finished in that class this last weekend so as to give some representative sizing data:

1) Move S-Dino (2) and F-Singles (2) to Saturday; run them with LW Clubman (25) and Vintage (1). Total grid ~ 30

2) Run F2 (28) with 500TW (7) and 250Prod (13), probably in that order - Total grid ~48

3) Run 250 SB (5) with 450SB (16) and F3 (10), also in that order- Total grid ~ 31

4) F-IV gets its own grid; it's big enough to deserve one, as does F-40, both increasingly popular classes with wait lists this last weekend.

This way bikes that are reasonably the same speed but more importantly run very similar lines are with each other.

Maybe a problem with this I don't see, if so please point it out.

I’ll try to go to the meeting, maybe this will come up… ;-)

[markermck]

You do recall correctly.

And he finished about 39th or so in the Daytona 200 too IIRC. Not bad for an old ugly guy... ;)

[420]

Good Work Eric.

I would change your #3 to put F3 in front though. If any of the fast foolios show up we run the same times as the F4 leaders. So there may be some issues. Though I know some 250SB peeps are damn quick.

Also is there any 250P riders that race F2 or are they just not competitive?

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by 420
Good Work Eric.

I would change your #3 to put F3 in front though. If any of the fast foolios show up we run the same times as the F4 leaders. So there may be some issues. Though I know some 250SB peeps are damn quick.

Also is there any 250P riders that race F2 or are they just not competitive?

I went to the meeting last night, showed this to a couple of folks. It has some possibilities but also issues.

Charles pointed out on the AFM board that 500 twins is a second class for the 250 prod group. This would remove the option to run a second class for them, so it defintely needs some work.

The time differentials I'm not as worried about since no matter how you slice it there will be time differentials. My point here, and granted this lineup may not be the right one, is to get like-sized and more importantly bikes that run the same types of lines together. While there is certainly a speed diff between a 250 SB front runner and a 250 P backmarker, they both tend to run 'swoopy' momentum based lines, so I would think they can intermix easier.

The data I see and several years of being gridded with 125 and 250 2-strokes while running a 750 or a 1000 myself at all the various tracks tell me not to worry about speed and laptime differences as much as riding style differences, since I think that's where most of the danger is IMO. All my near-misses in those races tended to be when my point-and-shoot lines were going to intersect with a 125 riders curvy momentum lines at corner entry.

I would think the 2-strokers might tend to agree but not sure.

Anyway, putting this out there as a starting point only to get folks to think differently.

[420]

Just like everything in this convoluted business the answer is: "it depends".
On a 125, if I am lapping traffic I prefer to come up to bikes that I have a clear and known difference. E.G. I can easily pass a slightly-slower 600 on the brakes or mid-corner. Likewise on a 600, I know I can get the 125s on the straight easily.

If I come up on a slightly slower 250SB bike that has strong braking and cornerspeed abilities, it is more difficult to find the opening.

That said I would rather run with similiar machines, because if a 600 is 2-3 sec a lap slower than a 125 it is hard to pass and make it stick without playing dirty. Against a more similiar bike the times are closer, say 1-2 sec, so at least you can keep some momentum.

If that makes any sense....

The bottom line is I agree Eric.... :D

[lokisdog]

yep, makes sense to me, thanks

[4xfore]

Way back in the day, when we (BORD) didn't have a "safety committee" to refer to, we only put 65 bikes on Sears Point, and allowed 75 bikes at Thunderhill and Buttonwillow. Maybe someone should revisit that thinking. Now you can start racing to fax machine to enter races like CCS.

[gpconcepts]

I still don't see why we can't run F40 on Saturday. F40 is a club optional class while F2 is not. So why not run the club optional class on Saturday. From the posting I have seen on the AFM site, many of the F40 riders would support the Saturday race. Then we could actually let the GP bike have their own race for a change.