**Bad decisions and Ill will**

[AFMBud]

Yes rules are rules and we all need to be responsible for our actions. However there are times when a little bending of the rules could have gone a long way not only to help a few racers get on the track but more importantly to show that the AFM really is the best race club in the country. Instead, we have a paddock full of disgusted racers and a general feeling that the club has got some real problems.

Two issues I'm aware of where a little help could have avoided the shit storm that followed. One involved Matt and Davey Sadowski and three other riders. They screwed up and didn't get their pre entry into the AFM. Did they blow it ? Yes. But what would it have said about our club if president,Kevin Smith, would have accommodated these guys and got them into the races. Even if they had to grid on the last row, at least they could have raced. One thing I've learned in dealing with people over the years is there are always options to be had to create a win/win outcome to any problem.

The second issue involved Ken Hill and the KFG rule. As I understand it, Ken asked president Smith to be allowed to start closer to the front of the grid in a particular race. To request this you must have a time sheet to support your request. Ken did not have a supporting time sheet but offered to show his lap times from his personal lap timer. Kevin turned down Ken's request based on the rules and to show that he will always be consistent with his decisions to all members. Admirable of Kevin ? Maybe. But was it the right call to make in this case. NO ! Ken has been a front runner in every class he's entered since I can remember. Ken has been an active member of the AFM and supporter for many years. Both he and his wife do great things for the club to keep it going strong. Ken didn't ask for pole position and a 10 second head start. He doesn't need a handicap. This was not an attempt to cheat. But by starting him further up on the grid with riders of similar times to Ken it certainly would have minimized the chances for a crash to occur with a slower rider while Ken made his way through the pack.

Should these riders be given special treatment because their last names are Sadowski or Hill ? Hell no. I would hope the same consideration be given to every rider no matter your status. Sure these exceptions are against the rule book and it certainly would have caused a bit more work for our great AFM entry staff. But so what ? Let's look at the big picture. Now we have a long time racer contemplating retirement from the AFM. I'm pissed off at that because me and a lot of other racers and spectators will be losing out on seeing one of our best racers put on a show for us one Sunday a month. Matt and Davey Sadowski and the three other pre entry delinquents wasted a lot of money only to be denied to race with the club that they are supporting. Lastly and not that important really, the AFM lost money from denied entry fees. It's entertainment. It's fun. It's not the arms race for Christ sake ! Bend a little Kevin. Show some goodwill ! Look at the big picture or ask another for an opinion before you make another snap decision that really makes the AFM look bad. Here is your chance to make a bad situation better. Do your best and people will admire you and our club.

Sincerely,

[purluv420]

I understand where you are coming from and to a point I fully understand but WE ALL know the rules!! How hard is it to pre-enter the race? To me that shows a leverl of disrespect that shoulod not be overlooked. In respect to Ken Hill he should have had his timer on and this would not have been an issue and trust me no matter how it comes off I highly respect Ken and could only dream to be of his caliber.

The KFG rule is a joke now that I really understand the way it works. I agree that there is undoubtfully favortism in the AFM but this is something we have to deal with for the better good of all involved. I am by no means a KFG but I had a mechanical issue in the first race and was not allowed to grid up where I belonged but was still able to end up where I belonged in Open Productionj. I don't see any real reason why Ken couldn't have done the same thing?

Why shouldn't Ken have to take the same chances as I just because he is "Ken Hill"? Sure he's gained the respect of his fellow racers and all the spectators but in reality we are all worth the same beans and should be. He should have gridded up and showed that he respected all the racers of the club the way we respect him?

The rules are the rules and that's just the way it is no matter if your name is Shawn Hardin or Ken Hill!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish that I could have started where I belong but I was subject to the rules just like Ken and everyone else and I had to do what I had to finish where I did. If I was able to finish where I did when gridded where I was I'm sure Ken could have Almost won the race but he deciced to stand on his morals which I resoect but it was his choice and the rules are the rules!!!!!!!!!

[ZXR400SP]

The KFG rule should allow a KFG a 4th row start any time of the year, any class except FP. Change classes, miss the beginning of the year, it shouldn't matter if your fast enough. A DB com sheet shouldn't be required if it's truly a KFG. Too often there are anomalies with the DB com system.

As far as pre entry issue I have to disagree with you on that one Bud. I believe ther were 92 pre entries for the 600P race, they do race 600's don't they? And there were 67 on the grid sheet so I don't see the club losing much on that one. Tell them to get a license from another club, reciprocity allows for same day signups.

[TWF]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
Tell them to get a license from another club, reciprocity allows for same day signups.
I believe only once,first time.
there is no excuse for not pre entering with afm policy of not charging you if you dont race.

[Holeshot]

Teh Sadowski boys knew better. Not to mention, who is Matt Sadowski? No offense meant, but pre registration has ALWAYS been that way. I dont' expect that to change anytime soon.

Now regarding the KFG issue, that was complete and utter bullshit. I knew Ken was running 42's because I was running 45's in practice and he was gapping me pretty good. Not to mention, the rule is "KNOWN FAST GUY" rule. Our #4 plate guy IS a known fast guy.

Oh let's not forget: THE VERY SAME THING HAPPENED TO STANTON AT BUTTONWILLOW. How many #1 plates does he have? Yet he's not a "known Fast guy"?

It's time to fix this now neutered rule.

Kevin, I like you man, but that was about the most fucked up decision you've made. I have no idea the thinking there except "everyone's equal" in tjhe AFM. Well that's just not true...if it was we wouldn't have winners and losers.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by purluv420
I understand where you are coming from and to a point I fully understand but WE ALL know the rules!! How hard is it to pre-enter the race? To me that shows a leverl of disrespect that shoulod not be overlooked. In respect to Ken Hill he should have had his timer on and this would not have been an issue and trust me no matter how it comes off I highly respect Ken and could only dream to be of his caliber.

Shawn--do you even know what happened to his timer???

It was lost whenst the Ducati he was riding stuck its throttle at 120MPH going into T6 on Friday--Ken Bailed off the bike--the bike ghost rode for 100 yards and the timer was lost.

Did Ken screw up by NOT getting a new one Sat---Yes--understandable as he had to drive up to Roseville, get the 750--and spend all day setting it up.

Now Ken has lap times that would have easily won FP well documented in AMA racing--so thats NOT an issue.

Kevin making decisions that reduces ALL of our saftey should NOT be tolerated--period.

Ken could have chose to start at the back of the grid --- and still won the 750 race---and still done very well in FP---BUT--he opted NOT to for safteys sake--not only his own but other riders--precisely WHY the KFG rule was instilled.

Thats called character.

Kevin could have easily granted a "clear and present" danger exception andlet Ken race--No one behind the 3rd row would care. In fact i would be willing to bet 90-95% of the racers would galdy agree to giving Ken the KFG standing--the other 5-10% just wanted a freebie.

Kevin is incapable of seeing the danger he induces with his quest for "fairness" or whatever he thinks it is--

What we need is someone that can make "on-the-spot" raceday decisions wisely--and it cant be a AFM politician. This will be part of my proposal this Wendsday.

Show up to the Board meeting Wendsay and watch the process.

[afm199]

I agree it was the shitty end of the stick for Ken. And who is supposed to decide which racers are not to be held to the rules? If a few "special" guys don't have to follow the rules, it is called "favoritism". Period.

Ken is a great guy and great racer, and Kevin did the right thing.

The point being, this is a club and the rules apply to the members, not to some of the members some of the time.

[ZXR400SP]

It may be the rule but it's a poor one that should be changed. It increases the odds of a crash on the first lap of the race when you grid that way. I haven't seen too many front runners say it's unfair, it's usually someone that's never seen the front of the grid and probably never will.

Give the people making up the grids some discretion. It may not always be the fairest way but it's not called the KNOWN fast guy rule because someone thought is was a cute name.

[joespeedfast]

Well, well; the more things change, the more they stay the same.:laughing
15 Yrs. ago, I realized that the AFM was run by non-racers, FOR non-racers.:barf While racing at both Willow Springs and at the now defunct Sears Point, it became crystal clear that "cool" people really do come from SoCal, and that anal twits come from the yay-area.:laughing

[AFMBud]

Alright lets keep this constructive. I started this thread as constructive criticism not a slam Kevin fest. I like the guy. He's not a jerk He's got a tuff job. Lets try to help him out a little. Give some positive suggestions or don't write in at all. Thanks.

[NoQuarter]

Originally posted by afm199
.. If a few "special" guys don't have to follow the rules, it is called "favoritism". Period.
...


You've clearly demonstrated a fair amount of wisdom in past points you've made in these forums. Where in life does "favoritism" not exist to some extent? Making judgment calls "outside the rules" is what separates us from robots, in a manner of speaking. No one wants a situation run entirely by exceptions and personal whims, but surely every set of rules has it's rational limits.

a truism coined by me (as far as i know):
You're understanding of the rules is best demonstrated by knowing when to break them.

[joespeedfast]

Sorry, but that was as truthful, concise and accurate as can be. :hand
Momma said, "stupid is as stupid does". I believe it, that settles it. :x

[ReptilianRage]

I don't understand why the thing with Ken happened at all. Given the KFG rule (which I hadn't heard about before, since I'm a racing n00b), he should have been gridded forward. We all know what Ken's capable of on the track, and demanding "official" timer results seems like a bureaucratic powerplay. Applying rules for the sake of rules is silly. We're here to have fun, not administrate ourselves into uselessness.

Ken's decision to not race when gridded in the back was understandable. He's done this enough times that he's not here to see how many people he can pass. He wants to compete, and to do that he quickly needs to get to the front. Getting to the front through a pack of riders such as myself could be dangerous. I personally applaud his decision.

I think many of us are upset that rules would get in the way of the spirit of the club. Sure, we need rules to avoid anarchy, but IMHO this was mismanaged.

[HRCrider]

Not sure of what happened, but I can get the picture. All I can say is all of you had a chance to vote for a new President. And a real good person wanted that posistion, named Mike Earnest. I myself am really thinking of not returning to the AFM. The last few years the club has really gone down hill with all the B.S rules and how the BORD dictates what goes on. Sad really sad.

[TWF]

fyi.I dont remember last time afm board had more KFG's than this year.

[Fozz]

Joe

Only one person on the board is NOT a racer and the current president is a former class champion. Ownership of "Sears Point" is now corporate with all the associated misery that entails, perhaps the millions of dollars of improvements have escaped your notice AND that we STILL RACE THERE!!!
WSMC is a fine organization BUT is privately owned (how many different tracks do they run? we have 3 with a 4th on the horizon)and is significantly LESS regulated by the racers than the AFM
AS with ANY job that involves many people and differing viewpoints 3% are likely to find some flaw and be unhappy about it no matter what. Feel free to stay in So Cal and race the multitude of clubs and tracks available to you there, and don't throw rocks at people and situations you obviously have no current knowledge of.

Originally posted by joespeedfast
Well, well; the more things change, the more they stay the same.:laughing
15 Yrs. ago, I realized that the AFM was run by non-racers, FOR non-racers.:barf While racing at both Willow Springs and at the now defunct Sears Point, it became crystal clear that "cool" people really do come from SoCal, and that anal twits come from the yay-area.:laughing

[afm199]

Originally posted by NoQuarter
You've clearly demonstrated a fair amount of wisdom in past points you've made in these forums. Where in life does "favoritism" not exist to some extent? Making judgment calls "outside the rules" is what separates us from robots, in a manner of speaking. No one wants a situation run entirely by exceptions and personal whims, but surely every set of rules has it's rational limits.

a truism coined by me (as far as i know):
You're understanding of the rules is best demonstrated by knowing when to break them.

So the rules apply to most people all of the time but special people part of the time. That's cool. Only no matter WHO is making the calls, they are going to piss off a bunch of people. This goes back to the KFG rule, if it is arbitrarily enforced (Paddy did a pretty good job) then those who do not get included are pissed and have every right to be. If it is strictly enforced then people get left out for various "technical" reasons like Ken's transponder.

The AFM is a corporation with corporate rules. If the board plays fast and loose with those rules, they basically are placing themselves in the position of showing favoritism to a "special" class.

And this is why it is hard to get good people to run for the board. There is no end of criticism, second guessing, accusations, sensationalism, and more drama and theatrics. I expect the upcoming meeting to be another drama queen special. I don't know whether to bring popcorn or stay home.

Running 250 Super in front of F40 was a very bad decision, I am sure that will be brought up at the meeting and discussed at length.

The Sadowskis had every chance to pre enter. Letting them BREAK the rules would be exactly what I called it, favoritism. And no there is no excuse for it. The average racer in the club deserves the same treatment as everyone else.

Ditto Ken Hill, though I can see this might be one of the cases where I (were I in the position) might waive the rules. But that is not my call, it is someone else's. They made the call based on the CORPORATE rules, and it is against the law to break the rules. The AFM is CA registered corporation, not a privately owned club. So basically you are asking a board member to break the law ( yes it is petty but it is also real) to allow a "special" person in.

Rather than bitch and complain about someone's behavior, how about proposing an amendment that allows a borad member to make the decisions on a case by case basis? Perhaps a " dire circumstance" rule.


I am always sorry to see emotional angry tirades against the board or someone on it. Why? Because it is childish behavior. If there is a problem, identify it, discuss it, and make changes.

What I see too often is angry accusations and fingerpointing against one particular individual or the board as whole with ZERO discussion and openmindedness about possible alternatives and ways to fix a problem.


Don't like the status quo? Make proposal for change not character assassinations.

This particular tirade is not aimed at anyone, rather at a pattern of behavior I see occuring regularly within the AFM.

[joespeedfast]

Actions speak LOUDER than words. Simple really, isn't it? :laughing

[FlatulentDan]

My thoughts on the "Day of" registrations:

we are a club and we do like to make money. registrations on the Day of an event are difficulty in organizing the day's event. So.. why don't we change the rules to allow for "day of" registration and just charge more $$$ for the inconvienice it causes to the club. Hell, charge double.. that way you'll only get he serious folks. and if you get more.. we pull in more money for future upgrades ( like the air fence )

I do agree with standing behind the rules regarless of what someone's name is, but I think it's silly not to take money from happily payng customers if there is room on the grid.

Regeistration closes x # of days before the event. You can register the day of for a $150 fee.

[Holeshot]

Ernie, there is no law broken by a corporation not following it's own rules. Favortism? Come on...it's a RACE club.

When the a former #1 plate AND a former #2 plate (current #4 plate) aren't put in for KFG, then something's seriously wrong and someone seriously screwed up.

They're "fast guys". a guy who gets 7th in an AMA Pro superbike race shouldn't have to "prove" his times. Paddy knows that, Kevin knows that. It's just bullshit all around. I like Kevin and I hate this to be on his head, cause it's NOT a small thing in the least. This is, in fact, a bigger issue.

There's no way to eliminate favortism in a race club. Some guys are just leaders of the pack. Why is it wrong to not recognize that? We all ask them how to take a line, setup a bike, holeshot a race etc. so then we can't recognize they deserve a KFG exception?

Bullshit at it's core

[afm199]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ernie, there is no law broken by a corporation not following it's own rules. Favortism? Come on...it's a RACE club.

When the a former #1 plate AND a former #2 plate (current #4 plate) aren't put in for KFG, then something's seriously wrong and someone seriously screwed up.

They're "fast guys". a guy who gets 7th in an AMA Pro superbike race shouldn't have to "prove" his times. Paddy knows that, Kevin knows that. It's just bullshit all around. I like Kevin and I hate this to be on his head, cause it's NOT a small thing in the least. This is, in fact, a bigger issue.

There's no way to eliminate favortism in a race club. Some guys are just leaders of the pack. Why is it wrong to not recognize that? We all ask them how to take a line, setup a bike, holeshot a race etc. so then we can't recognize they deserve a KFG exception?

Bullshit at it's core

Berto: Of course it is wrong for a corporation to not follow its rules. Rule: Salary for President is $100 a year. (example) President is instead paid $10,000 a year by CFO orders. CFO goes to prison for not following corporate policy. Right now the entire UC system is being examined for just this reason, lack of oversight by the Regents. Rule: Work starts at 8 AM. Nobody shows up and that is ok? I think not. Rule: Sexual harassment not allowed. Don't follow that and you will get pissed on by the state.

Sure I would like Ken to have raced, I said that. Instead of attacking Kevin or the board, find a way to make it possible. Kevin is following the rules. You want someone to follow the rules YOUR way, you have to run for office yourself.

It is NOT a race club, though we call it that. It is a corporation. Think of it like income tax. You may hate it, but you still pay it. As soon as the AFM is privately owned ( you have discussed this) organization, you can make any rules you want and enforce them.

Paddy does not want anything to do with the KFG rule for ONE reason. She did a great job making decisions for years, then started getting criticism from racers who felt left out. So she ended up getting yelled at for making decisions and does not want to be yelled at. I don't blame her.

As far as making exceptions for the leaders of the pack: If you can establish a policy that works, please do so. Cause right now it is a mess. Only make it clear. Otherwise the yelling, name calling and perceived favortism goes on. Of course Ken is a top rider ( and hard working valuable board member). Of course he deserves special treatment. Let's find a way to make the treatment possible instead of complaining about it.

And the Sadowski situation is an example. Should the youngster be allowed to post enter because he had a good qualifying time at Fontana and his dad was a top racer? Or not? If so, what are the guidelines? If there are none, then it is back to the old school. Paddy is tired of being criticized and I don't blame her. So WHO is going to make the decisions and get the criticism? Berto I am nominating you for entry Czar wednesday.

[TWF]

Originally posted by afm199
Paddy is tired of being criticized and I don't blame her. So WHO is going to make the decisions and get the criticism? Berto I am nominating you for entry Czar wednesday.
she also does not like rule that would create more work for her and crew.
so,how you make good rule?
I also believe Ken was counting on KFG rule to apply for him without timer on bike.
I am sure if this was AMA weekend he would get replacement one or would not qualify.
KFG rule sucks and Ken should have replaced transmiter.

[Holeshot]

Ernie, the AFM is not a public corporation, it's a not for profit private org. There's a signifgant difference and the rules really apply simply for the not for profit status. It really relates to how the meetings are conducted and elections held. The rest isn't an issue FWIW.

Thanks to people who whined and were listened to, we're at this point. I'm hoping ken, Dave, Jeff, Mike, Rob etc don't help anyone with setup or riding. It'd serve the club well to not look up to, nor expect anything from our fast guys.

Guess what: there's a caste system in racing. It's why we ask faster guys how to ride a turn or to set a bike up. However, then we expect nothing from them in return, expect to be put on equal ground despite the fact that we're 5 seconds off their times and have no idea why the front tire chatters through the carousel...

I'll say it again: it's bullshit. Dave Stanton had the same isse at Buttonwillow. Simply because he didn't follow the rules. Whatever. Looks like all those improvements were for naught in the ol' AFM.

I'm going to propose a mid year rule change to clarify this. This change will be to go back to the old KFG rule. Paddy can make decisions based on times. She's been very good at that previously.

[scalvert]

I'm going strictly based on what has been said here which may or may not bear any relationship to reality. Ken's one of the more mature and stand up people around the AFM, I know this from experience so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That said, I can't really fault Kevin's decision to stick with the rules in either case. How many times on this very forum have I seen people whining about special treatment for certain racers? A lot. Every time an official exercises personal judgment on a race day they can count on a chorus of whining and nit picking. That sort of thing strongly encourages by the book rule following.

Do I think Ken Hill should be in the front 1/3 of any grid he chooses to join? Yes. Do I support rule changes to make that happen? Sure. Why don't we still have the rule that would have let Paddy make the obvious choice of putting Ken towards the front? Because of this same whining about favoritism.

The funny thing is that the biggest example I've seen of "special" treatment was a clear and distinct disdain for Chris Siglin on the part of certain race day officials as a result of the old Carmen/Siglin battles. IMHO Chris seriously got the short end of the stick specifically BECAUSE he is a fast/high profile rider.

I don't believe that the board or various officials are infallible and I do think strongly disagree with them on occasion. Case in point: gridding F II with big bike classes. Still, as a group we can't have it both ways. Publicly decrying every decision made by officials and simultaneously decrying those same officials sticking to written rules is silly.

[TWF]

Berto,stop talking like 3 year old.
what helping others have with KFG rule?
I dont race afm for this kind of reasons and dont like the way it is run but I am still there and will help anybody that wants my help.
am I suppose to hate you all if I dont like afm rules?

[scalvert]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Thanks to people who whined and were listened to, we're at this point. I'm hoping ken, Dave, Jeff, Mike, Rob etc don't help anyone with setup or riding. It'd serve the club well to not look up to, nor expect anything from our fast guys.

Guess what: there's a caste system in racing. It's why we ask faster guys how to ride a turn or to set a bike up. However, then we expect nothing from them in return, expect to be put on equal ground despite the fact that we're 5 seconds off their times and have no idea why the front tire chatters through the carousel...

Agreed. Racing is not egalitarian. There are fast guys, regular guys, and slow guys; nice guys and dicks; safe consistent competitors and out of control dive bombers; giving, thick skinned guys who work for the good of the club even when it means having to make unpopular decisions and wankers who sit on forums all day bitching about those decisions. Everybody makes their own status by what they say and do.

If you want to have leaders who make decisions based on what makes sense you can't turn into a bitch every time they disagree with you. There's no need to be herd following sheep, but it'd be nice if people spent more time in civil discussion about the merits of various decisions rather than rushing into the childish personal attacks, conspiracy theories, and simple whining that dominates our little world.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Rules allowing Kevin (or Barbara) & the "Entry Committee" to make these decisions that you all are discusssing are already there. It's a matter of how the written words are interpreted and whether Kevin/Barbara and the rest of the membership remember that they already exist.

1.0 AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY FOR MANAGEMENT OF RACE MEETS

1.1 CHAPTER: The overall responsibility for the proper conduct and management of race meets rests with the sponsoring AFM Chapter, regardless of the extent to, or means by which authority may be delegated to race meet officials.

1.2 RACE DIRECTOR: The Race Director shall be in overall charge at any race meet. .....

1.3 ENTRY COMMITTEE: The Entry Committee shall be responsible for processing all entires; ...

1.6 REFEREE: ...(5)Handling rider complaints and questions

APPEAL OF DECISIONS: This appeals process applies to raceday protests, disqualifications, etc.

I'd say that's enough right there to make whatever decision needs to be made.

[GPgofast]

My beleif is any organization should always look at what the INTENT of a given rule or procedure was. In this case, it was to ensure just no one would show up on a race weekend, claim KFG, get a fourth row grid position and race. We needed to have a way of defining what a KFG cutoff should be, so the rule was written this way.

I have ZERO doubt in my mind, unless Ken showed up in a wheel chair, that he easily exceeds the standard of the KFG (hell, maybe even if he showed up in a wheel chair, I would have to evaluate that situation individually!!!). When we as a club go to enforce ANY of our rules, the INTENT of the rule should ALWAYS be considered. If a 250 Production champion who earned his championship on an EX250 shows up and wants a KFG in a 1000, there should be some requirement of proof, but when a PERENIAL front runner in just about EVERY big bike class we run is held to the same standard as an unknown entity, in my opinion the process is broke and needs to be fixed. I hope Ken does NOT retire, he is an invaluable resource to the members of the club and we would all be harmed if it came to that. Just my .02 cents....GP

[afm199]

If anyone wants to create a protected class of riders in the club, great. Just define them, otherwise it goes right back to WHO IS A KFG?

Ken Hill? Obviously.

There are at least three riders in the club who think I am a KFG. :laughing :laughing
(For the record I am old and slow)

But if you want a class of protected riders, WHO ARE THEY? Everyone has an opinion. Just make a list so whoever makes the decision does not get second guessed every time. Right now it is just indignancy that a good rider could not ride. What if Eric Wood shows up on race day? Should he be allowed to ride and be gridded without pre entry? How about John Rock Page?
How far down the AMA roster do you go?

As it is now, you just want your friends to get treated specially. That's cool. Just make a list of your friends so we all know who gets special treatment.

[Holeshot]

Ernie, I'd think it's self explanatory that a top 10 FP guy is KFG. Even the one's we're not friends with.

This "special class" isn't due to anything but their skillset. Yes, we're treating the fastest guys in the club differently. Perish the thought that top 10 FP guys have better skills than us.

[afm199]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Ernie, I'd think it's self explanatory that a top 10 FP guy is KFG. Even the one's we're not friends with.

This "special class" isn't due to anything but their skillset. Yes, we're treating the fastest guys in the club differently. Perish the thought that top 10 FP guys have better skills than us.

Berto: I am not arguing with your premise that the top guys are excellent racers and valuable club members.

I am stating that if there is going to be a "preferred class" there has to be a clear understanding of who they are, otherwise the problem does not go away. Top ten FP riders are class? Great. That makes it possible to give that list to Paddy and say they get preferred gridding. It is sensible, it works and it takes away the guess work.

Serious! Preferred riders can not be chosen by hindsight. There has to be a clear guideline on race day...... Joe Smith is top ten FP rider, he gets gridded in third row in class he has not raced. That's cool and great.

No list, endless arguments.

[NoQuarter]

This thread has become fairly comical frankly. Sorry Ernie, your statements that the rulebook *has* to be followed because it's a corporation are wrong. The examples of breaking state or federal law are true, but that's not the case here. Even if it were a hundred percent true, as Wile pointed out, the rules allow for discretionary judgment by the powers that be.

The opinion that allowing any exceptions are going to piss off the majority of the club is also ill-founded. Sure, people will bitch and complain about any decision. People not even in the race Ken was trying to run in would probably bitch if they don't like him. But fact of the matter is, most people would have agreed it would've been a sensible decision to allow it.

There's a fine line between sensible governing and communist party style friends lists of special people (which no one but Ernie is calling for), but as Greg pointed out "letter of the law" rulings that blatantly ignore the spirit of the law do not serve the intent of the system.

Hell, considering that this configuration was never actually raced on before by the AFM, the "cutoff time" to qualify for KFG had to simply be made up, correct? Was that process specifically spelled out in the rules? Or was a judgment call made according to the intent of the rule?

edit: fixed stupid italics things

[afm199]

Dave:

The way non profits work ( I ran one ) is fairly siimple. By laws govern director behavior. I can give myself a 300% raise and maybe get away with it, if not specifically prohibited, but what will happen is either the board will stop it, or sue me for negligent behavior ( not running the corp in a responsible way). Bottom line, you can do whatever you want and get thrown out or sued if it pisses off someone and can be called negligent. Which is why I no longer am a director, too much downside not enough upside.

That is the standard the board has to meet. Responsible behavior. That's why there has to be some guidelines. Not because it is a communist conspiracy, but because arbitrary favoritism CAN come back and bite you in the ass. Say I hire my GF as a secretary. Bingo.

I said several times I think Ken should have raced and I would have allowed him to, but second guessing someone's decision is BULLSHIT. They are doing what they think is best for the club.

What you are pushing for is an arbitrary rule.... Ken should have raced so either someone fucked up or the rules are wrong.

Ok. Change them. Come up with a plan that works, and codify it so it does not take a genius to figure out who a KFG is. What you are talking about, to me, is simply the same old stuff. KFG's should get preferential treatment ( which I don't care that much about one way or the other) and YOU are defining who a KFG is after the fact. You want special treatment for KFG's, then write a rule that depends on objective standards ( lap times, podiums, etc) not on subjective standards ( we all know so and so is a fast guy).

Why? Suppose a "KFG" is allowed to post enter and race based on AMA record. Suppose this KFG is so shit hot they don't need to attend the rider meeting. Suppose said KFG does not know T1 configuration and asspacks someone at 100 mph. Guess what. That opens a window for a peek at a negligent behavior lawsuit. Why? Because a director chose to allow a special circumstance and it was a mistake.

I am amused by the "communist party list of friends" crack. Given that I spent most of my life running my own business and vote Republican most of the time I have a hard time figuring it out.

If you want special treatment for certain people, then DEFINE THEM. Otherwise there are no standards. You might want John Rock Page to race and Berto might not. Who is right? Set some standards, right now you guys are shooting yourself in the foot.

But given that this is BARF and the same bitch and moan threads show up after every race, I should realize it is BARF and stop fueling the flames.

The AFM is a great organization and I love most of the members. The amount of generosity and giving is incredible. I blew a motor Sat and had someone offer me one. It's neat, I hope the club continues to thrive and prosper.

Dave I don't remember meeting you but I hope to. I may have met you five times already but I hardly remember what i had for breakfast. Thanks for the input and for wanting to improve the club. The members who want to improve it are the backbone, not the socal snipers. :laughing

[omegajeff]

:flag :flag :flag ERNIE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!! :flag :flag :flag

[NoQuarter]

Originally posted by afm199
...I am stating that if there is going to be a "preferred class" there has to be a clear understanding of who they are...

There already is precisely just that: someone who can ride within 3 seconds of the previous race winners best lap time during practice. It really couldn't be more specific than that.

The issue was in the proving of the above. The proof required as written in the rules is a time sheet from practice. Why? Because it's simple, black and white. But frankly, it's also extremely vulnerable to cheating. In this case, it's a well known fact Ken can run the appropriate times.

What of a counter example? Joe Smith from whoknowswhere shows up and claims KFG base on a timesheet. Would it not be prudent to at least verify that the timesheet was truly his? A witness or two to confirm the data? Unlike the AMA, the AFM does have the manpower to verify that each and every bike/rider is outfitted with the corresponding transmitter. But would such questioning not be outside the rules?

[christofu]

I think the current broken KFG rule should be discarded and we go back to a rule where KFG status is at Paddy's discretion.

The rule should also mandate that Creech must stand behind Paddy at all times and beat the shit out of anyone who is anything but the picture of politeness to Paddy on any topic.

Right now, much of the rule book is somewhat ambiguous and allows for interpretation in several different ways. It strikes me that whereas 99% people of reasonable people would interpret some of the rules one way, some race officials seemingly always take the 1% view.

[christofu]

Oh, Ernie, the by-laws of the corporation must be followed by law.

However, the contents of the rule book is not the by-laws (for example, the entire membership doesn't have to vote to amend the rulebook).

[afm199]

Originally posted by NoQuarter
There already is precisely just that: someone who can ride within 3 seconds of the previous race winners best lap time during practice. It really couldn't be more specific than that.

The issue was in the proving of the above. The proof required as written in the rules is a time sheet from practice. Why? Because it's simple, black and white. But frankly, it's also extremely vulnerable to cheating. In this case, it's a well known fact Ken can run the appropriate times.

What of a counter example? Joe Smith from whoknowswhere shows up and claims KFG base on a timesheet. Would it not be prudent to at least verify that the timesheet was truly his? A witness or two to confirm the data? Unlike the AMA, the AFM does have the manpower to verify that each and every bike/rider is outfitted with the corresponding transmitter. But would such questioning not be outside the rules?




:laughing The new KFG rules is not perfect. Ken should have been allowed to run. How often is this going to happen? New configuration, NO ONE had time sheets. After one race, no longer a problem. All this hot air about one race? Sheesh. I got caught in the same catch 22 Saturday.

[NoQuarter]

By and large I tend to agree with you Ernie. The main point, and reason for Communist Party reference, is that what you're calling for is a list of names. I disagree. There already is a list, it's defined by qualifications however, not names, so it varies. The point of contention as I pointed out last post is how those qualifications are determined.

No, I don't believe we've met, but I look forward to it.

[afm199]

Originally posted by NoQuarter
By and large I tend to agree with you Ernie. The main point, and reason for Communist Party reference, is that what you're calling for is a list of names. I disagree. There already is a list, it's defined by qualifications however, not names, so it varies. The point of contention as I pointed out last post is how those qualifications are determined.

No, I don't believe we've met, but I look forward to it.

I've been called far worse :laughing ( I actually was in jail in communist East Germany once for talking shit to a border official about stupid rules, they put me in a locked cell for a couple hours to cool me off)


I misunderstood your stand here. I think the current 3 second rule ( I was at the board meeting when it passed and thought is was a good compromise) is workable. I would hate to see a list, I just put it out there to discourage folks from wanting to change a rule that is just getting started.

I actually liked the old KFG by Paddy situation, but that seems to be over forever.

I'll stop by your pits next race and introduce myself.

Ernie

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by GPgofast
My beleif is any organization should always look at what the INTENT of a given rule or procedure was.

Yep, right on Greg and I believe that 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.6 & 1.7 were written and worded with the intent to give authority to handle anything not already specifically covered in the rulebook.


Originally posted by NoQuarter
There's a fine line between sensible governing and communist party style friends lists of special people (which no one but Ernie is calling for), but as Greg pointed out "letter of the law" rulings that blatantly ignore the spirit of the law do not serve the intent of the system.

Hell, considering that this configuration was never actually raced on before by the AFM, the "cutoff time" to qualify for KFG had to simply be made up, correct? Was that process specifically spelled out in the rules? Or was a judgment call made according to the intent of the rule?

Absolutely Dave.

Originally posted by afm199
...No list, endless arguments.
Originally posted by afm199
I said several times I think Ken should have raced and I would have allowed him to, but second guessing someone's decision is BULLSHIT. They are doing what they think is best for the club.... Ok. Change them. Come up with a plan that works, and codify it so it does not take a genius to figure out who a KFG is. mph.
Originally posted by afm199
...Everyone has an opinion. Just make a list so whoever makes the decision does not get second guessed every time.

Until any such rule is written or KFG rule is revised that could have all been handled with current rules and use what you've got to make a decision. And "no" I don't think it opens the club up to any more of a lawsuit. The example of an unfamiliar-to-the-club AMA rider causing a lawsuit for the club really doesn't hold much water with me. We all sign releases of liabilitiy (hold harmless). Anyone that is going to sue is going to sue. We can't write a rule after rule in fear of that.

I agree with some of what you're saying Ernie. In the meantime the decision made some call foul. It is a thankless job that WILL have people bitching no matter what is decided. The current rules do not specifically address the concerns but there were rules that would have allowed it to happen (for either Ken or Sadowski's) or in this case not happen. Many good ideas have been thrown out here on how each case could have been handled differently/better. We may like or not like the current decisions and there are things that could be done in the future to have caused a different outcome if enough felt strongly about it. As I went through the rulebook this morning I didn't see anything in there stating "racers shall not be found to be bitching on racer forums."

[Holeshot]

But wait, Ken had a micron on his bike that he informed Kevin he'd show him.

Kevin's response: "How do we know it's yours?" This to Ken Hill...a guy who's one of the most honest in our padock. That's just fucking insulting. So you can see that there was something personal on Kevin's end. As if Ken can't run a 45' on that 750 in practice. I had the worst weekend in some time and I ran 45's in practice.

Ernie, before you came back to racing we had a KFG rule that worked well and fine and wasn't distinctly defined. The AFM can go back to that rule. some things aren't absolute.

And as Dave mentioned, by-laws aren't competetion rules. The state could care less about our competition rules. This was a screwbe from the get go...

[afmotorsports]

We have waaaaaay too many friggin "RULES" in the AFM that get in the way of common sense. I'm starting to think we should just start taking an eraser to some of the crap that's in the rulebook. And why do we have so much "crap" in the rulebook?? Because a few whiners always look for excuses to whine. And in order to placate them, we come up with MORE rules to attempt to make it "fair"... which of course leads to even more whining from the "it's not fair" crowd. It's a vicious cycle. Who claims "no fair" and "preferential treatment"?? A bunch of little girls, that's who (no offense to little girls ;) ). A "known fast guy" is KNOWN to the AFM folks, from registration to scoring to race director, so if you're not yet "known" then you're not a KFG 'cause the damn "K" is missing! Get on the gas and quit your bitchin!

There should be NO KFG RULE!!! That's right, take it out of the damn rulebook! Paddy, the race director, EVERYBODY with half a brain (or even less) knows who the fast guys are. We didn't have a KFG rule in the past and we managed just fine without encumbering the registration folks with following a gazillion rules and exceptions to rules. Screw the 4th row bs - if a factory pro rider ever came to race with the AFM, he should get front row, pole position 'cause none of us will EVER catch him! It's common sense! But the rulebook tries to legislate common sense and we end up with the cluster&*ck that we have now.

As for Kevin, he is a "by the book" type of guy. That's sometimes good and sometimes it's not so good, but he is consistent and you have to give him credit for that. He is very big on the "integrity of the rulebook" and I agree with him to some extent. He generally has the rulebook to defend his decisions. Even when sections of the rulebook give him or the AFM the right/opportunity to exercise "discretion", he is unlikely to do so. That's just the way it is and some people like that and some don't. I'm probably at the other end of the spectrum. I'm more interested in the "intent" of the rule or the "common sense" aspect and that is sometimes in contradiction with the rulebook. I am far more likely to exercise discretion than Kevin ever will, but then again I'm not the club president and don't have the power to make those decisions at the track. Surely some of you are very happy about that... :laughing :laughing

The fallacy with the rulebook is the belief that more rules equals more membership satisfaction. That may be true to a point, but now we have so many rules that the bitchin is increasing simply because there's more stuff to find in the book that people can bitch about. If you have the RIGHT PEOPLE in positions with decision making powers, then discretionary powers are a good thing. The key is to have the RIGHT PEOPLE and that is up to the membership when we vote for board members. If you have the WRONG PEOPLE, then it's best to tie their hands with a strict rulebook that eliminates the possibility for bad discretionary decisions... and arguably then the membership made BAD DECISIONS electing these people and they are nothing more than "official rules readers" instead of true decision makers and leaders.

Without all the stupid KFG crap in the last few years, Ken would've been on the 4th row. No doubt in my mind that Paddy would've known better than to stick him on the last row! Of course there may have been a couple of "little girls" whining that they should also get a better grid spot if Ken got one, so then we end up with the oh-so-scary accusation of "preferential treatment" and "favoritism"... So faaaking WHAT!! Until we have qualifying by laptimes, the system is NEVER going to be perfectly equitable and while the AFM may not be aware of every single "KFG" situation, it's better to have MOST of them gridded further up on the grid than worrying about a few "whiney little girls" who didn't get moved up on the grid. Why do we have to give up common sense just so a few whiners don't cry "foul"??? People who go through life crying "no fair" will never change their tune no matter what you do... :hand

As far as the Sadowski kids, they ARE special because they're already doing well in the AMA and good results in the AFM could help further their career. Should they have registered ahead like everybody else? Of course. For many years I've been in favor of allowing late registration as long as there was a hefty administrative fee and your name was put at the bottom of the list. The 600 grid was already pretty full, so the kids may not have been able to race anyway if there wasn't room on the grid. But if there was a way to get on the list, I personally would've liked to see them race with the AFM.

It all comes down to the rulebook and how closely you follow every single detail, whether it truly applies common sense to every particular situation or not... And it also comes down to how much sleep you lose over the voices that cry "favoritism" and "preferential treatment".

[afm199]

[i]




Until any such rule is written or KFG rule is revised that could have all been handled with current rules and use what you've got to make a decision. And "no" I don't think it opens the club up to any more of a lawsuit. The example of an unfamiliar-to-the-club AMA rider causing a lawsuit for the club really doesn't hold much water with me. We all sign releases of liabilitiy (hold harmless). Anyone that is going to sue is going to sue. We can't write a rule after rule in fear of that.

I agree with some of what you're saying Ernie. In the meantime the decision made some call foul. It is a thankless job that WILL have people bitching no matter what is decided. The current rules do not specifically address the concerns but there were rules that would have allowed it to happen (for either Ken or Sadowski's) or in this case not happen. Many good ideas have been thrown out here on how each case could have been handled differently/better. We may like or not like the current decisions and there are things that could be done in the future to have caused a different outcome if enough felt strongly about it. As I went through the rulebook this morning I didn't see anything in there stating "racers shall not be found to be bitching on racer forums." [/B]

3.8 sec.4: Racers shall refrain from bitching on internet forums or a 20 minute timeout will be imposed.

The releases are really good, they have only been succesfully challenged once or twice. They do not, however, prevent lawsuits. Once a standard of criminal negligence has been met, they are meaningless. For instance if some racer tampers with a bike and causes a crash and is conveniently caught on video, that release will not stop a lawsuit and criminal complaint, nor should it.

From the perspective of the board, they have to maintain behavior that is negligence free.

Now I assume Kevin said "How do we know it is yours?" rhetorically, meaning that there is no outside witness. I doubt he intended to insult Ken. I had the same question asked of me when I showed a saturday practice timesheet at the gate on a Sunday, when I could not find my ticket. She said: "How do I know you did not give it to someone else." My initial reaction was: "I'm Ernie Montague, bitch." But a second of thought told me her phrasing was poor but her point was correct. I did not have a ticket. I might have had one, but no longer.

Should be an interesting board meeting :blush :blush

[afmotorsports]

Originally posted by afm199
"I'm Ernie Montague, bitch."

I read that with Dave Chappelle's tone from the famous line: "I'm Rick James, bitch!" :laughing :laughing :laughing You really need to put that line in your signature now... :teeth

[Robert R1]

The Ken Hill situation is comical. If Kevin can't distinguish between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, then he is not fit to enforce such.

[TWF]

Originally posted by afmotorsports


There should be NO KFG RULE!!! That's right, take it out of the damn rulebook!




that is what I said long time ago in another tread but than Katy jumped in bitching about work it would put on them.
here is one more time
"no kfg rule"
first race of season you should be grided by lap time from practice.after that by points.if no points you blend in by lap time.

you have to make it simple and dependent only on racer itself.if you open door for somebody else to decide who is grided where you will end up with bitching.

[TWF]

Originally posted by Robert R1
The Ken Hill situation is comical. If Kevin can't distinguish between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, then he is not fit to enforce such.
Kevin is not problem.problem is that he has choice to decide for Ken.either one he takes he is right.and as stated by Alex and as much I know Kevin he will take one by the book.some will like it some will not.
before jumping all over Kevin there are 2 more things ahead of it.stupid rule and Ken not getting replacement transmiter.
ps.if it was up to me Ken would be grided were he belongs.

[PantyBuncher]

to understand this, you need to know the history of the KFG rule.

this brief summary is my understanding.


1. in the beginning, there was a KFG rule, all was well, paddy handled things admirably, seemingly fairly, things were safer.

2. mike raab was racing. mike raab got on the board. mike raab was getting his ass kicked. he didn't like the possibility of 'someone' potentially showing up and taking 'his' contingency money. so, what to do ? remove the KFG rule altogether. and it was made so.

3. many individuals recognized that this complete lack of gridding sense created a safety problem. some tried to get the rule reinstated, in various forms, from a simple reinstatement of the previous rule(which was 'arbitrary' in the sense that paddy determined the KFG status), to a more complete and precise definition of KFG and its' applicability. after much time had passed, and much wrangling, a neutered version of the KFG rule was reinstated. the provisos being that the KFG status would be determined by the ability of said individual to meet the following qualifications:

a) rider has no points in class
note that the interpretation of this seems obvious, but it is not, and in fact was completely twisted by kevin smith. at race 1, previous year's points are used for gridding. ok. what about race 2 ? only the current year's points should have been used, but instead, somehow, the riders still didn't have zero points....even though they did in fact have zero points. hmmm...strange......yeah, if 'strange' means completely wrong. i brought this problem to kevin's attention after i found out that a fellow racer was denied KFG status, and ultimately was taken out at the race start in a class in which he had zero points, and was in fact, a KFG. kevin told me that he 'interpreted' it that way on purpose. to what purpose i have no idea, and why the actual rule wasn't in the rulebook is another question. this was not a case of 'interpreting' anything. it was in black and white....rider had zero points...yet was not given gridding preference.

b) the rider is a KFG, able to lap within 2 seconds of the leader's fastest time. as mentioned above, this is not a realistic expectation of a KFG.


so, we end up with a bad KFG rule, and the board pats itself on the back that they got something installed, even though it is crap. congrats guys.



some general comments:

1. i tried to post the history as i remember it all. but of course, i didn't take notes, so feel free to correct me as necessary.

2. some players in the drama which have really screwed things up over the years.

2.1 mike raab, for acting in his own personal interest instead of the interests of the club by forcing the removal of the KFG in the first place. then in later years, suggested a 'compromise' where the KFG rule would be defined by 'running in practice within 2 seconds of the race winner'. of course, we're talking mainly about the ability of the KFG applicant to run, in practice, at the first race of the year, within 2 seconds of the race leader, at the last race of the year. i was at this rules meeting, and suggested this was a problem, and that mike himself could not meet the cutoff. i believe this was later modified to 3 seconds. (then, this rule had other things tacked on it, like zero points in class(still counting points from previous season, even after first round), etc)

2.2 greg creech....one of the slowest racers in the club, who has no real understanding of a large grid and the subsequent traffic and safety issues. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.

2.3 kevin smith...another one of the slowest racers in the club, who has no real understanding of a large grid and the subsequent traffic and safety issues. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.

2.4 wayne montoya....not a racer. time to be voted off the board. simply doesn't understand what's really happening on track. when this guy was racing, 4 rows was a huge grid, so it's inconceivable that there is even a problem. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.


3. rules are rules, but the board claims to have ultimate authority to adjust anything they wish, for specific exceptions, or for mid-season changes. many of you won't believe this, so if you need an example, one doesn't have to look very far. the rulebook stated riders had to be 16 to race. the board said that was more of a guideline than a 'real' rule, and they could grant exceptions whenever they desired. (after my rule change request, and after re-explaining to each of them exactly what was in my rule change they finally put the actual rule in the rule book. imagine that. the actual information in the rulebook.) so, if you are wondering about post-entry, then the board does in fact have the authority to authorize anything they wish. i don't have a specific case in mind, but i'm positive that post entries have been allowed on a case by case basis in the past. i'm not commenting on this particular case, but just that it has been done. why aren't post entries allowed ? for some reason, it is believed that it is too hard on the entry system. well, how about fixing the system and raising the cost of the post entries so as to cover this added hassle ?


4. the club membership is to blame. elect incompetent staff to the board, and you get shitty results. simple. it's even worse than you might think, because of the way the rules committee is composed. the club had a shot at a competent LEADER with mike earnest, and turned down that opportunity. i doubt the club will get another shot at mike, but hopefully there are other competent individuals who could LEAD the club. we currently don't have a LEADER, we have a classic paper pusher with a bit of power trip. and don't give me statements about 'class champion' until you can say competitive class champion.


5. as to kevin calling ken hill a liar in a case where the obviousness of the truth is apparant....well, that doesn't seem very wise, certainly not the type of thing i'd expect of a leader.

6. as to the comparison between kevin and george bush....that does seem accurate. but also, consider the jackassess who voted for george bush and kevin smith to be a part of the problem as well.


to the board and the membership.....fix the problems. remove the incompetent and flawed from the rulebook and the board.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by christofu
I think the current broken KFG rule should be discarded and we go back to a rule where KFG status is at Paddy's discretion.

The rule should also mandate that Creech must stand behind Paddy at all times and beat the shit out of anyone who is anything but the picture of politeness to Paddy on any topic.


AMEN!!

discretion is the problem though, the club seems to hate the idea of 'discretion', 'cause it might lead to 'abuse of power'. Whatever, it's a friggin club.

Now we have neutered rules with overcomplicated criteria, why? to take 'discretion' out of the equation.

Now we are down to Boolean math, you meet the criteria (which is spelled out) you pass, you don't, you are out. Sadowski's failed, so did Ken, Kevin did the right thing, but he didn't have a choice under the current rules.

is Ken a KFG? fuck yes, should he have been granted KFG status? fuck yes, under the current rules? hell no. I respect Ken as a rider and a person, but it was his decision to sit this one out to make a statement. Hopefully his statement will be loud enough to FIX THE FRIGGIN RULE, NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER!

BTW, I have 2 top 10 plates, and I started on the 12+th rows at buttonwillow, I may suck on a 600, but I think I should qualify as a KFG. Stanton is a pretty quick guy (tongue in cheek), and ken is pretty quick too... Hello?!? the rule is broke.

[OldCat]

Two words;
COMMON SENSE.

[Trackho]

Originally posted by afm199
"I'm Ernie Montague's bitch."
Should be an interesting board meeting :blush :blush

I will be at the board meeting with at least one proposal in hand.

FYI--Ken could have had an emergency board meeting at the race(look in the rule book)--disturbing as many board memebers as possible--I bet he would have gotten a majority vote-- to get the resolution he wanted. BUT he chose NOT to be a drama-queen and interrupt everyones weekend because Smith was being an ass.

I have put in a proposal that we have ONE person make these decisions on race day--hopefully with saftey as the primary concern--cant be Kevin or another "politician--maybe Barbara or if a racer, one of the fastest that understands the dangers--should be an interesting meeting

I cant agree with Alex hearding the all the "little whiney bitches off the nearest cliff"--I really wonder how many have ever received a "close pass" by Ken--its pretty close--very controlled and polite but close none-the-less--me thinks that most of the whiners would shit themselves--deparately hoping they get some "freebie advantage"--

Bwhhaa ---- I like Kevin and respect him--but I have NO desire to be "Kevin Smith's Bitch"--- but sure felt that way in F40/OGP--I was OK as long as I was doing the ass packing--but once close the the receiving end--wasnt so much fun anymore. I'll post the vid tonight as some as I figure out how. Maybe in the future wave 2 gets sprayed in vasoline at the start:laughing :laughing :laughing :laughing

[TWF]

let me pull out broken record one more time.
both of this issues,Ken and Sadowski are not as big problem in its self as they are resoult of one bigger problem.class structure,rule book and schedule.that is where all starts.
it was same 10 years ago and it is same now.overpopulated,full grids,wait lists,kfg's,no post entries,....
many things changed in 10 years but same problems are still there.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by TWF
Kevin is not problem.problem is that he has choice to decide for Ken.either one he takes he is right.and as stated by Alex and as much I know Kevin he will take one by the book.some will like it some will not.
before jumping all over Kevin there are 2 more things ahead of it.stupid rule and Ken not getting replacement transmiter.
ps.if it was up to me Ken would be grided were he belongs.

The rules are what they are. But in this scenario, the call was for Kevin to make. Unless he's been hiding under a rock, in the spirit of competition, it was clear that Ken should've been allowed to start higher up.

[TWF]

and he did make call.not what some of us like but there are those that do like(see Andy's post).
which way is it right way?

[Gary J]

Originally posted by PantyBuncher
this brief summary is my understanding
Brief? Andy, I'd say you hit a home run from the school of GaryJ's notoriously long-reading posts with this one! :applause

But seriously, despite some of the pokes at specific individuals that some may not applaud you for in your posting, the historical accounts of the KFG rule rise-and-fall over the last few years is quite accurate. Your bringing it forward for all interested AFM members (on BARF) to be aware of, was good.

Being outside at the moment anyways, I'll only comment that I hope that Ken's denial for KFG gridding at last weekend's race event (as unbeliveable as that was to hear! - sorry about that Ken), may ultimately serve as a "positive", in potentially generating the needed spark to stimulate the AFM (Board's) willingness to revisit the KFG policy, and potentially return to an approach that serves "the intent" of the rule (safety and rational gridding decision-making).

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by Trackho
I really wonder how many have ever received a "close pass" by Ken--its pretty close--very controlled and polite but close none-the-less--

Ken Hill passed me in practice on Saturday.

It was extremely close, fast, clean and business is business. I didn't think it was hairball at all. The guy knows how to haul the mail.

[TWF]

Originally posted by Gary J
from the school of GaryJ's :applause

But seriously, despite some of the pokes at specific individuals that some may not applaud you for

:teeth :teeth

[Holeshot]

Huh. Well go figure. As it turns out, it wouldn't have mattered. Suzuki mother fucked all of us. Thanks Suzuki.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by TWF
and he did make call.not what some of us like but there are those that do like(see Andy's post).
which way is it right way?

Poorly setup rules exist often and no one notices them until the rule needs to be applied. Kevin should have recognized the issue with the current rule when facing the Ken Hill situation. From here he should have made the proper decision and then bring up the issue with the existing rule at the next meeting and vote for a change.

As a President he needs to be a bit more than a robot who'll simply follow the book. That's just not good use of judgement anyway you cut it.

[TWF]

I agree.
do you want to change the way afm is run?

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Poorly setup rules exist often and no one notices them until the rule needs to be applied. Kevin should have recognized the issue with the current rule when facing the Ken Hill situation. From here he should have made the proper decision and then bring up the issue with the existing rule at the next meeting and vote for a change.

As a President he needs to be a bit more than a robot who'll simply follow the book. That's just not good use of judgement anyway you cut it.

Are you f-ing kidding me? Not only should Kevin have forseen, but he should have anticipated Ken riding friday, crashing, losing his transmitted, showing up with a new bike saturday and riding it without a replacement transmitter and still try to gain KFG exception by using his personal laptimer?!?

Damn you Kevin, you should have seen this comming and fixed the rule before it effected him!

Bullshit, this is the root of the problem, the rule has evolved from something that worked to the shit it is today, as pantybuncher outlines to the 'T'. It need to stop evolving and go back to to when common sense prevailed.

this is lame to tie the presidents hands then beat him for not using them.

[afm199]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Poorly setup rules exist often and no one notices them until the rule needs to be applied. Kevin should have recognized the issue with the current rule when facing the Ken Hill situation. From here he should have made the proper decision and then bring up the issue with the existing rule at the next meeting and vote for a change.

As a President he needs to be a bit more than a robot who'll simply follow the book. That's just not good use of judgement anyway you cut it.


The proper decision? In your opinion. In his opinion he made the proper decision.

Rather than bad mouthing him and keeping this issue constantly on the horizon, how about suggestions for a solution.

Ken got caught in a LOOPHOLE that resulted from the change to the AMA T1 and lack of lap times for the new configuration. A one time occurence. Let's not make into a cause celebre with motions for the President to resign because he had the gall to follow the rules.

My suggestion for a solution? Now that a race has been run there are lap times for the new configuration. Let's give the new KFG rule a chance rather than proposing to change the fucking thing every time a problem arises or the board meets. Pardon my language.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Kurt
Are you f-ing kidding me? Not only should Kevin have forseen, but he should have anticipated Ken riding friday, crashing, losing his transmitted, showing up with a new bike saturday and riding it without a replacement transmitter and still try to gain KFG exception by using his personal laptimer?!?

Damn you Kevin, you should have seen this comming and fixed the rule before it effected him!

Bullshit, this is the root of the problem, the rule has evolved from something that worked to the shit it is today, as pantybuncher outlines to the 'T'. It need to stop evolving and go back to to when common sense prevailed.

this is lame to tie the presidents hands then beat him for not using them.

So the president of the AFM should not use any judgement when he's confronted with an existing rule that's "bullshit" as you stated?

If Kevin felt like it was right thing to do, then that's great but if he felt that the rule is wrong but still enforced it because he wanted to do things "by the book" then I have issue with that.

[Kurt]

that's the issue, We as a club do not want the BORD to make judgment calls, when they are made there is a ton of whining about 'favoritism', 'hidden agendas', etc. Hence the KFG bastardization, hence the crash rule abortion over the past 3 years, hence the uproar about the lose definition of 'dangerous riding' in the rulebook.

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by Kurt
that's the issue, We as a club do not want the BORD to make judgment calls, when they are made there is a ton of whining about 'favoritism', 'hidden agendas', etc. Hence the KFG bastardization, hence the crash rule abortion over the past 3 years, hence the uproar about the lose definition of 'dangerous riding' in the rulebook.

Kurt,

Covering every loophole and special case incident is going to be next to impossible so when atypical situations occur, judgement calls must be made. Now the memebership just needs to make sure they have someone in place who'll do good on judgement calls.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Robert R1
Kurt,

Covering every loophole and special case incident is going to be next to impossible so when atypical situations occur, judgement calls must be made. Now the memebership just needs to make sure they have someone in place who'll do good on judgement calls.

We are on the same page there, I believe they should be making judgment calls, but they have been beaten down when they did. These overcomplicated rules will never work, period.

Give the KFG horseshit back to Paddy to deal with behind closed doors, she knows her shit. Put Creech on guard if necessary. :)

give the BORD the final call on who is a nut-job and who has had bad luck on the crashes.

As for bending late entries, well, that rule has been the same since '02 when I started, I think the guys that screwed up should swallow the pill on that one.

If the BORD does a bad job, vote ‘em out.

[creech]

Funny, back when I was on the board, we had a very talented supermoto racer show up to Thunderhill unaware that he had to preregister. I talked to Patty who said it was just a matter of getting board approval. I talked to the board members on sight and lo and behold, the guy got on the grid. It's important to note that this was thunderhill where entries had not been turned away for filling up.

Were the grids full at Infineon?





Boy, i don't miss this shit.. :)

[Ducky_Fresh]

Andy Carmen, you're the man for telling it how it is!!!

Granted, in all fairness, I don't think Kevin is "one of the slowest racers in the club".

Now that guy who was doing 2:22's in clubman..

[COFFEE]

What happened to:
7) The "special gridding exception" for known fast racers will be only available on or after the third race weekend.

[TWF]

Originally posted by COFFEE
What happened to:
7) The "special gridding exception" for known fast racers will be only available on or after the third race weekend.
you can't read rules by one sentence.
you have to go back and fore through pages,from rule to board duties to apendix a to z.
than you draw your own conclusion what rule is talking about and act as desired.
good luck getting it right :teeth

[AFM#719]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Huh. Well go figure. As it turns out, it wouldn't have mattered. Suzuki mother fucked all of us. Thanks Suzuki.

OK... Spill.

[AFMBud]

My take on pre-entrey and a couple of possible options goes like this: They screwed up. So why not show some goodwill and help these riders (no matter who they are) get a chance to race. We all lay out some pretty serious cash and drive hundreds of miles just to get to the damn event. Don't make a bad situation worse by sending club members home mad, only to tell their potential AFM racer buddies that the AFM sucks. This is an opportunity for the club to show some heart and shine. If it will make you feel better, charge them a " $50. Brain Fart Fee". Make them wear a pink hat that says "DUMB ASS" on it. But lighten up and let them race. It's not as if there were 25 riders trying to barge in. It was 5 guys. And I would bet there are fewer than that, if any, on the other race weekends. Currently, the punishment is overkill for the crime. The club is in serious need of some good P.R. for a change.

[duh_ave]

Bud,
Grapevine has it that they were shown "goodwill" at b-willow where purportedly (sp?), the same thing happened.

We have a month to do pre entries, and it is easy to confirm. This one's on them.

[Boris]

Originally posted by afmotorsports
I read that with Dave Chappelle's tone from the famous line: "I'm Rick James, bitch!" :laughing :laughing :laughing You really need to put that line in your signature now... :teeth

Ernie's cool new shirt ... ;)

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/202/067/3119147-ernie_s_new_shirt.jpg

[Chris510]

I know I'm getting old, but in almost 40 years of racing, I can not recall a promoter or organization that would not accept post entrys.

What a good way to loose money !!

Below I have posted a copy of the AHRMA rules that apply to this thread. Check them for yourselves
( http://ahrma.org/rulebook/index.htm )

3.6 ROADRACE PROCEDURES
a) In pre-entry events, a minimum deadline will be established before the event, normally 14 days. Grid positions will be based on points earned by a rider in that class. The class champion will be awarded the pole position for the entire season he or she carries the No. 1 plate. (This gridding and number privilege does not carry over into other classes.) Riders who are post-entered will be gridded at the rear of the grid, or at the Race Director’s discretion.


Race fees. All events except those highlighted below: Pre-entry, first class $70; each additional class $60. Post-entry, first class $100; each additional class $60. NOTE: Each day of racing is a separate event with a separate fee schedule. DAYTONA: Vintage and Vintage Superbike, pre-entry $85 for first class, each additional class $75. Post-entry: $120 for first class, $75 each additional class. Sound of Singles, Battle of Twins, Sound of Thunder, pre-entry $110 for first class, $100 each additional class. Post-entry: $145 for first class, $100 each additional class. MID-OHIO & BARBER: Pre-entry, first class $85; each additional class $75. Post-entry, first class $125; each additional class $75. No refund of Mid-Ohio or Barber entry fee or credit toward future event after pre-entry deadline. No post-entry at Mid-Ohio.


With this kind of pricing there is great incentive to pre-enter, especially if your running multiple classes.
With me running my own buisness sometimes I don't know until the day I have to travel whether or not I can even go. Without post entry I am usually screwed ( such as last weekend). Post entry makes it possible for me to race more often.

If you notice in the Procedures the last statement made, "or at the Race Director’s discretion". This is all that is needed in the rule book, not a seperate KFG rule.

I gladly volunteer to stand with Patty at every sign up session to help with conflict intervention.:teeth :teeth :teeth

[TWF]

Chris,
afm has one of best entry deal in world.
you pre enter and dont get charged until after the race.if you dont line up on grid you dont get charged.it does not get better than that.
new to afm,like guys showing from another club for first time can still post enter.after first race they have rule book and should know procedure.
all other clubs will take your money you run or not.some will give you cary over for next race if you call on time.
if afm has post entry half of racers would wait to enter at track.what you think schedule would look like when you have 2 hours to put it together?there are wait lists the way it is.
if races are light like B-willow I believe they will let you post enter.
there is fix for it,see one of my posts for reason of all problems.
there is no excuse for not pre entering,even when you are 99% sure you will not make it.

[NSR250SP]

AFM Entries showed 7 of the 13 grids from Sunday having wait lists.

Classes that has wait lists:
Open Twin/Open Production
F4/250 SB
F40/F2
Open GP/750 Prod
600 Prod
600 SB
F1

If they were trying to enter any of those classes, the issue may have been there was no room to put these racers on the grid.

[afm199]

That must be a mistake, that would mean Sadowski could not have raced anyway and this thread would be half a waste of time. :laughing

[NSR250SP]

Again, I am only posting the information that is sent to me from the registration team. I get a spreadsheet that includes each class, how many entries per class, how many entries per grid, how many wait listed riders per grid, etc.. This info came directly from that spreadsheet.

[afm199]

My comment was tongue in cheek, I am sure those figures are correct. :)

[ALANRIDER7]

Originally posted by afm199
My comment was tongue in between cheeks, I am sure those figures are correct. :)

Fixed.

:laughing

[Chris510]

Originally posted by TWF
Chris,
afm has one of best entry deal in world.
you pre enter and dont get charged until after the race.if you dont line up on grid you dont get charged.it does not get better than that.
new to afm,like guys showing from another club for first time can still post enter.after first race they have rule book and should know procedure.
all other clubs will take your money you run or not.some will give you cary over for next race if you call on time.
if afm has post entry half of racers would wait to enter at track.what you think schedule would look like when you have 2 hours to put it together?there are wait lists the way it is.
if races are light like B-willow I believe they will let you post enter.
there is fix for it,see one of my posts for reason of all problems.
there is no excuse for not pre entering,even when you are 99% sure you will not make it.


Zoran, I agree 100% about the best entry deal.
I had this payment procedure explained to me by Bud Anderson on Friday when he found out I hadn't pre entered. Now that I know, I will not miss a race again because I didn't pre-enter.

I disagree with you about post entry. I don't really think most of the guys would wait especially if there is a stiff financial penalty involved. I understand the grids are full ( this is a good problem) but there is always someplace for a person to race. It might not be their first choice but there is usually someplace (class) that they could race in. I am not talking about someone that has come from another club or a first timer, they are accomodated already. I am speaking of the general membership, if a member forgets or has a huge brain fart they are not accomodated. Brain fade tends to go away when $250 in sign ups turns into $500.

[TWF]

I would like to see post entry but it is hard with afm.if there was post entry I would probably enter race here or there when I feel like.
I raced whole season with wera last year and some races with wsmc and not once did I pre enter,post entered all of them.

[markermck]

And you spent more to post-enter those races than you would have to pre-enter them too.

[raabit]

Originally posted by PantyBuncher
to understand this, you need to know the history of the KFG rule.

this brief summary is my understanding.


1. in the beginning, there was a KFG rule, all was well, paddy handled things admirably, seemingly fairly, things were safer.

2. mike raab was racing. mike raab got on the board. mike raab was getting his ass kicked. he didn't like the possibility of 'someone' potentially showing up and taking 'his' contingency money. so, what to do ? remove the KFG rule altogether. and it was made so.

3. many individuals recognized that this complete lack of gridding sense created a safety problem. some tried to get the rule reinstated, in various forms, from a simple reinstatement of the previous rule(which was 'arbitrary' in the sense that paddy determined the KFG status), to a more complete and precise definition of KFG and its' applicability. after much time had passed, and much wrangling, a neutered version of the KFG rule was reinstated. the provisos being that the KFG status would be determined by the ability of said individual to meet the following qualifications:

a) rider has no points in class
note that the interpretation of this seems obvious, but it is not, and in fact was completely twisted by kevin smith. at race 1, previous year's points are used for gridding. ok. what about race 2 ? only the current year's points should have been used, but instead, somehow, the riders still didn't have zero points....even though they did in fact have zero points. hmmm...strange......yeah, if 'strange' means completely wrong. i brought this problem to kevin's attention after i found out that a fellow racer was denied KFG status, and ultimately was taken out at the race start in a class in which he had zero points, and was in fact, a KFG. kevin told me that he 'interpreted' it that way on purpose. to what purpose i have no idea, and why the actual rule wasn't in the rulebook is another question. this was not a case of 'interpreting' anything. it was in black and white....rider had zero points...yet was not given gridding preference.

b) the rider is a KFG, able to lap within 2 seconds of the leader's fastest time. as mentioned above, this is not a realistic expectation of a KFG.


so, we end up with a bad KFG rule, and the board pats itself on the back that they got something installed, even though it is crap. congrats guys.



some general comments:

1. i tried to post the history as i remember it all. but of course, i didn't take notes, so feel free to correct me as necessary.

2. some players in the drama which have really screwed things up over the years.

2.1 mike raab, for acting in his own personal interest instead of the interests of the club by forcing the removal of the KFG in the first place. then in later years, suggested a 'compromise' where the KFG rule would be defined by 'running in practice within 2 seconds of the race winner'. of course, we're talking mainly about the ability of the KFG applicant to run, in practice, at the first race of the year, within 2 seconds of the race leader, at the last race of the year. i was at this rules meeting, and suggested this was a problem, and that mike himself could not meet the cutoff. i believe this was later modified to 3 seconds. (then, this rule had other things tacked on it, like zero points in class(still counting points from previous season, even after first round), etc)

2.2 greg creech....one of the slowest racers in the club, who has no real understanding of a large grid and the subsequent traffic and safety issues. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.

2.3 kevin smith...another one of the slowest racers in the club, who has no real understanding of a large grid and the subsequent traffic and safety issues. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.

2.4 wayne montoya....not a racer. time to be voted off the board. simply doesn't understand what's really happening on track. when this guy was racing, 4 rows was a huge grid, so it's inconceivable that there is even a problem. voted against most good versions of the KFG rule.


3. rules are rules, but the board claims to have ultimate authority to adjust anything they wish, for specific exceptions, or for mid-season changes. many of you won't believe this, so if you need an example, one doesn't have to look very far. the rulebook stated riders had to be 16 to race. the board said that was more of a guideline than a 'real' rule, and they could grant exceptions whenever they desired. (after my rule change request, and after re-explaining to each of them exactly what was in my rule change they finally put the actual rule in the rule book. imagine that. the actual information in the rulebook.) so, if you are wondering about post-entry, then the board does in fact have the authority to authorize anything they wish. i don't have a specific case in mind, but i'm positive that post entries have been allowed on a case by case basis in the past. i'm not commenting on this particular case, but just that it has been done. why aren't post entries allowed ? for some reason, it is believed that it is too hard on the entry system. well, how about fixing the system and raising the cost of the post entries so as to cover this added hassle ?


4. the club membership is to blame. elect incompetent staff to the board, and you get shitty results. simple. it's even worse than you might think, because of the way the rules committee is composed. the club had a shot at a competent LEADER with mike earnest, and turned down that opportunity. i doubt the club will get another shot at mike, but hopefully there are other competent individuals who could LEAD the club. we currently don't have a LEADER, we have a classic paper pusher with a bit of power trip. and don't give me statements about 'class champion' until you can say competitive class champion.


5. as to kevin calling ken hill a liar in a case where the obviousness of the truth is apparant....well, that doesn't seem very wise, certainly not the type of thing i'd expect of a leader.

6. as to the comparison between kevin and george bush....that does seem accurate. but also, consider the jackassess who voted for george bush and kevin smith to be a part of the problem as well.


to the board and the membership.....fix the problems. remove the incompetent and flawed from the rulebook and the board.

Andy,

Some much needed clairification...

At the time mentioned I was the acting Vice President of the AFM. As such I did not have a valid vote regarding rules changes. I could only provide input based on my own personal feelings and those of other racers that had talked to me. That being said, I also never collected contingency purse money from any race other than FP. My motivation regading contigency was from other racers, yourself included, that complained about one-off AMA entrants getting 4th row placement and taking away "your" contingency money.

Also at this time I was currently AFM # 4 and was hardly getting my "ass" kicked. Once again, no motivation there.

After serving on the board for 4 years one thing became perfectly clear though....there was always someone ready to complain and bitch about all the decesions made by the board, but when given the chance to themselves step-up and run for a postion they would ultimatly fade to black. ( Look in the mirror ).

The KFG rule is a joke and has always been so. Remove and move forward.

Mike Raab
AFM # 27

P.S. This kind of behavior will remove you from all margarita activities when I make my triumphant return!