AFM Board Meeting - May 3rd - A few notes

[Ducky_Fresh]

I took a few notes at the board meeting last night and thought some of you would like to know what all was discussed. These are completely unofficial and the best I could make out this morning based on my chicken scratch.. :)

1. Synthetic Oil - We lost 55 minutes on race day due to full synth oil on the track in turn 9. They used the powder to clean it up, which got some of the oil, then torched the remaining oil.

Someone wrote a statement to the board about instating a rule for 2008 to make full synthetic oil illegal.

Then it was mentioned that some bikes "cannot" run anything but full synthetic.

2. Noise Limits (103 db) - Apparently 20-30 riders are thought to have exceeded the sound limit at Infineon Raceway. There are two monitoring stations. One in the AFM race control and one for Infineon's staff at a different location. The meter Infineon uses, is where the drag cars stage.

It was a concern to a lot of hte riders at the meeting that the sound meter and limitations may come in to play at the next event. Kevin agreed to check with Infineon and find out if there will be enforcement of the rule or what the consequence (if any) will be if a rider's bike exceeds the 103 limit.

3. Contingency - Apparently, Suzuki changed their contingency payout from Production last year to Superbike this year. That had a lot of people confused since Suzuki pushed hard to make it apply towards production so that the class would align with the suzuki cup at the GNF's.

Chris V.A. is going to try and get in contact with Suzuki and get them to apply it to production instead of superbike, since that's what the majority of riders had anticipated for the 2007 seasons payout.

The new single paper contingency form is getting a lot of fanfare.

4. Race Gridding & Waves - Jeff Gruetter brought up the topic of gridding since F2 was gridded before F40 and it hosed him up in turn 6 and some guy passed him as a result of it. The discussion was lengthy and presented a lot of good ideas.

The concern was mostly momentum based riding vs point and shoot riding styles being gridded together. Most agreed that this did make it a little more difficult to pass quickly and safely.

In the end, Ken Hill, the Head of the Safety Committee, will work with Kevin to provide an additional before the grids are finalized.

5. It was a topic of discussion to possibly find another location for the board meeting and possibly even change the day it is held on. The most considered region is Hayward/San Leandro in the East bay since it helps the board members from sacramento (3 of them), and also falls in between the two counties with the highest rider populations, Santa Clara County and Alameda County.

6. We're looking for someone to help with the AFM Website. This would mostly include maintenance and updates as they come. If anyone is interested, contact Kevin Smith.

7. Endurance Race - It was discussed to designate the last hour on the Friday before the endurance race to the endurance teams. During this time any of the riders on an endurance team would have the option of riding the designated bike.

This was slated for discussion later, as the dollars and cents of this possibility need to be worked out.



Notes:

Kevin S. stated that yes, he is in fact black and white when it comes to the rulebook.

Then someone reinforced his statement by saying "The rules are voted on by members of the Board."

Dave S. also commented something to the effect that the rules are fair for everyone, and although they may not be perfect, they are what we have. As long as everyone has to play by the same set of rules, then what is there to complain about?

--

A note about the Yoyodyne throttles made for ducati's, which have now failed 4 times, will be issued out to the rider populace.

--

Alex called someone a pussy. I forget who?

--

The pecan pie was good.

[FlatulentDan]

Good stuff, thanks for posting this up. sounds like it went better than I thought it might after all the on-line drama.


Did someone spank Alex?

[Ducky_Fresh]

Looks like we may have found a website person. Yay!

Thank me later Charles. :P

[afm199]

Thanks Everett, I wondered what Trackho was in such a fuss about.

[Jimbo 460]

If they still need someone, I would like to help with the website. What is Kevin's e-mail?

[Trackho]

Originally posted by Ducky_Fresh
I took a few notes at the board meeting last night and thought some of you would like to know what all was discussed. These are completely unofficial and the best I could make out this morning based on my chicken scratch.. :)

4. Race Gridding & Waves - Jeff Gruetter brought up the topic of gridding since F2 was gridded before F40 and it hosed him up in turn 6 and some guy passed him as a result of it. The discussion was lengthy and presented a lot of good ideas.



Ernie/Everett,
The motivation wasnt getting passed by another literbike--it was getting grazed by another litrebike that was traveling approx 50mph faster (normal top 6 F40 pace) thru the entance of T6. Me, JT and another guy were checking up for a slower 250 rider from the first wave--I started to go around the mess--got clipped--a nanosec sooner and it would have been hella-ugly. It was a really dangerous race due to the order of the 1st/2nd waves.

The F40 was totally lame because of the slower F2 traffic--but that was minor compared to the danger(s) created by the decision to put F2 in front of F40.

Wasnt any of the rider's fault--just an "management error"---thus the motion to correct it.

When I figure out how to post a video--I will do so and let everyone decide for themselves

[markermck]

As was mentioned last night, I can see that a lot of what happened in that race likely came as a direct result of being started so closely behind the F2 class. Barbara even said in the rider's meeting that she wouldnt be waiting long before starting subsequent waves, since the corner worker in T1 had to have time to get across the track to place the cones after the grid cleared, and before the first wave came back around.

Maybe next round the waves can be timed out just a bit farther apart, and that will help eliminate some of it, in addition to your suggestions.

[budman]

[i]

--

Alex called someone a pussy. I forget who?

--

The pecan pie was good. [/B]

:rofl :applause

Very important points..:p

:smoking

[Ducky_Fresh]

I felt it prudent to share... :)

[Kalvin00]

2. Noise Limits (103 db) - Apparently 20-30 riders are thought to have exceeded the sound limit at Infineon Raceway.

I would think the 2 smokers are the worst in this category?

[Ducky_Fresh]

My money for worst sound would probably be on the big twins and open inline 4's.

[afm199]

Nope, loudest bike is ALWAYS a ninja 500 with a clapped out D&D exhaust. There was one there and it hurt my ears.

[MackeyStingray]

Nope, loudest bike is ALWAYS a ninja 500IIRC isn't that pete's old bike?

[MAXX LEAN]

Originally posted by MackeyStingray
IIRC isn't that pete's old bike?


:shhh :laughing

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Ducky_Fresh
A note about the Yoyodyne throttles made for ducati's, which have now failed 4 times, will be issued out to the rider populace.


I thought I heard my conscience whispering in my ear this weekend to say "There's something wrong Coyote, don't race, don't race"

or maybe it was just Alex saying "you're a pussy."
;)

[joe]

Did Ken and Kevin arm wrestle and then apologize to each other?

[Ducky_Fresh]

If memory serves me right, Ken pretty much acknowledged that Kevin ultimately made the right decision with the clubs best interest in mind.

[afmotorsports]

Originally posted by Ducky_Fresh
Alex called someone a pussy. I forget who?

pssst... look in the mirror. :laughing :laughing ;)

That comment came during the discussion about the club's rules continuing to get more and more complicated in an attempt to appease the "pussies" that are constantly claiming "favoritism" and "preferrential treatment" and all that type of bs... and in reality it's a relatively small percentage of the population that goes through life with a "victim complex" and the more rules we create the more they find reasons to complain. Truth be told, we took a perfectly good "process" where Paddy and/or race control gridded the faster riders towards the front (since she KNEW who they are) and we created this monstrosity of a KFG rule in an attempt to placate the very small number of riders that claimed "favoritism" in the past. The AFM is slowly becoming an organization encumbered by a million rules and exceptions to rules because we're so afraid to exercise some discretion when the intent of the rules is clearly not met in some specific situations. Is it more important to ALWAYS stick to the rules even if the intent of the rules is clearly being ignored if we "stick to the rules"?? Some people thought yes, others thought no...

[GPgofast]

Originally posted by afmotorsports
pssst... look in the mirror. :laughing :laughing ;)

That comment came during the discussion about the club's rules continuing to get more and more complicated in an attempt to appease the "pussies" that are constantly claiming "favoritism" and "preferrential treatment" and all that type of bs... and in reality it's a relatively small percentage of the population that goes through life with a "victim complex" and the more rules we create the more they find reasons to complain. Truth be told, we took a perfectly good "process" where Paddy and/or race control gridded the faster riders towards the front (since she KNEW who they are) and we created this monstrosity of a KFG rule in an attempt to placate the very small number of riders that claimed "favoritism" in the past. The AFM is slowly becoming an organization encumbered by a million rules and exceptions to rules because we're so afraid to exercise some discretion when the intent of the rules is clearly not met in some specific situations. Is it more important to ALWAYS stick to the rules even if the intent of the rules is clearly being ignored if we "stick to the rules"?? Some people thought yes, others thought no...

Sounds like living in California...

[afm199]

I was fine with the old KFG rule and letting Paddy run it. One of the "PROBLEMS", IMHO, is contingency money. As soon as a rider thinks they have "lost" money by getting bumped back by a KFG they start to bitch.

And yes, if you have rules, they apply to everyone. I call BULLSHIT about the idea that there is a special group of riders who don't have to pay attention to the rules. Or maybe it's ok for some people to break laws but not others.

[PantyBuncher]

<<<3. Contingency - Apparently, Suzuki changed their contingency payout from Production last year to Superbike this year. That had a lot of people confused since Suzuki pushed hard to make it apply towards production so that the class would align with the suzuki cup at the GNF's.

Chris V.A. is going to try and get in contact with Suzuki and get them to apply it to production instead of superbike, since that's what the majority of riders had anticipated for the 2007 seasons payout. >>>



i have to disagree here. what are we really looking for in the afm ? good, fast, racing.....for money where possible. do you think open production really offers the best racing, the best riders ? i don't think so. if you want to know where the best riders are, it's obviously in FP and open superbike. now, if you are looking for a protected class in which some of the fast guys won't be elgible to run, then open prod is it. and, i don't really care what was 'anticipated', you check into that shit before the season starts.

now, you are saying 'put the money in my class'.....but what about those that are already apprised of the facts, and winning the money in open superbike ? you think they'll be thrilled with your proposal to switch the contingency mid year away from them ? then, force them to switch classes(to something they can not now win a championship in), bike setups, and start from the back of the grid ? do you need more of an advantage ? where did you get this 'the majority of riders anticipated open production' business ? did you survey the entire open class field ? or are you just pulling this from your ass ?

i think it's a stupid argument to try to tie in the suzuki GNF with the afm contingency. who is really even going to the GNF ? 1 or two guys at most ? look at it this way, where are the fastest guys racing ? FP. they will likely be running slicks. do you really want them to have to switch their setups to DOT's and buy another set of tires for one race in order to go beat berto ? or, run DOT's in FP and get beat ? uh, no. i think the switch to support open superbike with the contingency is the way to go for now and for the future. who in the afm really has a superbike anyway ? we're talking about running slicks(woo hoo, now i have a superbike), and most all of the fast guys already do this. and yeah, i'll send this off to the afm as well.

[TWF]

they always paid in production/ss unless club does not have that class(like 650twins).
suzuki is always late with their schedule and this year have new person in charge.most like they made mistake.
either way somebody should call them and verify if mistake or they changed plan.I believe this is exactly what Chris is doing.
keep it in production :)

[PantyBuncher]

could you explain why you believe it is best for the afm, and best for the riders to have the manufacturer's contingency paid in open production rather than open superbike ? to keep this simple, let's stipulate that we are considering the 2008 season.

[whatupgc]

I would have to agree with Andy that the Suzuki money was
desinated for Superbike so it should stay there. Although I also run Production on a spare bike I focused my efforts on 750SB. Ran brand new tires and the expensive gas. Where I was on practice tires and pump gas on my spare bike for the Proddy races. Everyone just assummed it would paid in Production.

[Holeshot]

Did anyone really think Suzuki was paying in SB class before (or even after) we went to Buttonwillow? Consdering Suzuki has an intent to pay the most SS/ production based classes based on the GNF, despite a club's proximity to where that is held, it was everyone's assumption I spoke with that Suzuki would pay production classes. They did the previous year based on keeping the bikes as aligned with AMA/ GNF as they could. We all know our SB classes allow more than FX in some cases.

My thinking is the same as Zoran and Martin's: that someone at Suzuki doesn't understand what SB classes are in the AFM and screwed the pooch. I mean seriously, we're two races in and they decide to switch the paying classes from the previous year? Siglin, Carlotta, me, Kim, (even Garry) weren't thinking that was going to happen. It's fucked for them to do so. So Suzuki was late to the party: no big deal. At least give fair warning when switching the contingency after two weekends for the 08' season.

I've got no problem with 2008 being SB classes. That's an advanced educated decision for riders. But changing the payout from 06', midway through 07' isn't just poor planning, it makes little sense.

[BohnJerntsen]

Originally posted by MackeyStingray
IIRC isn't that pete's old bike?

And was mine before Pete had it. It's basically been in the AFM since 1992.

[TWF]

Originally posted by PantyBuncher
could you explain why you believe it is best for the afm, and best for the riders to have the manufacturer's contingency paid in open production rather than open superbike ? to keep this simple, let's stipulate that we are considering the 2008 season.
because they do same all over the country.so if you go race wera west or wsmc or ? you still get paid in class you legal for(production).
paying sb class just makes people spend more money on bikes.in production bikes are closer in performance and let better man win money.

[PantyBuncher]

alright mr #164A,

so, you're buying me a production bike and DOT's so that i can compete in open production ? you're right, that will cost me less money than paying for another bike myself.

you cannot remove the money from the equation. you think tigert's motor is cheap ? i still lapped his ass this weekend on my superstock bike with slicks.

if you're looking to have the best rider win the money, doesn't it make sense to have the money in the class with the best riders rather than gerrymandering the issue ? the money in open production means more money spent by the rider on two bikes, or lack of competitiveness in FP.

the obvious problem is that the afm gathered very little data, and were proceeding to try to make a mid-season change. anyway, i'm pretty much done with this subject. the afm has my thoughts on the issue, and will do whatever they wish.

[Holeshot]

Well AC, it's not like people don't run FX bikes in production...so they can run SB's in production as much as they like, so long as they aren't protested.

I feel the AFM should tear down the top 3 of ALL money classes.

[TWF]

Originally posted by PantyBuncher
alright mr #164A,

if you're looking to have the best rider win the money, doesn't it make sense to have the money in the class with the best riders rather than gerrymandering the issue ? the money in open production means more money spent by the rider on two bikes, or lack of competitiveness in FP.

no.best riders will be where money is.
and istead running superbike in prod they will run prod bike in sb.few will buy second bike.
most will keep bikes close to stock and general population will spend less money on building bikes.
that we can bring rules as they should be,real production all across classes.not what we have now in 250,500,450 and 650 classes.instead of production and superbike we have superbike and formula.

[Nucking Futs]

Originally posted by afm199
Nope, loudest bike is ALWAYS a ninja 500

Wait till you hear Fong's open pipe 600 ( if he'll race AFM). Some Moto GP bikes were quiter.

[KimDN]

BUT.....Anyone could have found out which classes Suzuki was paying in before the first green flag at BW was dropped. I did. At BW before the first race, I asked Chris V.A. about the Suzuki $ plan. He told me he had been in touch with Suzuki and that they would in fact be paying in SB, not prod. Did anyone else bother to ask the guy IN CHARGE OF AFM CONTINGENCY??? I again confirmed it at Sears Point.

So the info was there, all you had to do was ask.

FWIW, I finished virtually the same in both prod and SB classes. for purely selfish reasons, I wish that Suzuki would be paying in Prod, since some of the tough guys aren't racing in that class (Parriot, Bell, O'Sully)

Like Maaatin says, it is up to Suzuki. For 2008, I personally think SB should have the payouts. Mostly because it will have the best racers going for it; Zoran says the best racers will go where the money is--tain't true. Other than the Freak of Nature Stanton, which Prod racers were on the FP Podium last year (on their prod bike)?

[TWF]

Originally posted by KimDN


Like Maaatin says, it is up to Suzuki. For 2008, I personally think SB should have the payouts. Mostly because it will have the best racers going for it; Zoran says the best racers will go where the money is--tain't true. Other than the Freak of Nature Stanton, which Prod racers were on the FP Podium last year (on their prod bike)?
this group of some that raced in production my not be best in your view but I think they are close :laughing
Stanton
Tigert
Hill
Siglin
Randolph
Sarros
Szwarc
Fong......

[Holeshot]

...Combs, Nakashima...

[PantyBuncher]

oddly enough, i'm not going to bother arguing this issue, and even more oddly, it seems that gary J has summerized some good reasons to put, whoops, i mean keep, the payout in SB. so i'll just paste gary's comments here without his permission, and let zoran continue to tell us how it was.


--------------------------------------------------------------

Though I'm not in the mix of things at this moment, having seen the pro's and con's of the contingency offerings to either "Superbike" classes (as it used to be for many years), or to "Production" classes (as it changed to a short number of years back) ..... I am in agreement with Andy that "SuperBike" is the better choice of target class for major manufacture contingency programs (like Suzuki's). This, of course, is assuming that contingency payout is not going to be offered for both divisions, but instead will be offered in a "one or the other" fashion.

>From what I've seen in year's past; by paying in the "Superbike" class, it encouraged the fastest-of-the-fast guys to migrate towards running the top-tier classes for their bike displacements. They would run in FP, and in the "SuperBike" class version for their bikes, and be able to run the same tires (slicks) and bike setups for those tires, in all their races.

This allowed for some seriously good racing for everyone in the "SuperBike" ranks, kept the tire costs a bit more reasonable, and made for a win-win situation for the overall AFM racer contingent. This win-win coming in the form of providing a slightly less competitive environment ("Production" class) for the 2nd tier "fast" guys to compete .... where they had an honest shot at a podium spot, and/or championship.

>From past life experience of competing in the Open Production, and 750 Production ranks, I witnessed the win-win benefits that this "Superbike" targeted major manufacture contingency policy provided for the racers.

FWIW, my vote would be for continuing the "Superbike" based contingency program that Suzuki as returned to for 2007.

[Ducky_Fresh]

I say split the amount between the two classes. Keep them both as competitive as possible.. :)

[TWF]

you asked so I told you how it was :)
also where I think it should be.and where rest of country has it.however that is just my opinion.
here is question.if this few best guys move to race 500 twins should contingency move with them?

[KimDN]

Originally posted by Holeshot
...Combs, Nakashima...

bhawahwahahaha. Next thing you know you'll be adding Berto and Crawll to that list...

[CTS488]

I'm going to disagree with Andy, Kim, and others on this one. AS far as suzuki is concerned the money should always be in a production type class. Why you ask??? Because the whole point behind the contingency is for suzuki cup points. You earn cup points as the year goes on ,only on suzuki paying weekends. Those points go towards the Suzuki Cup finals at the GNF in Atlanta in Oct. for gridding purposes The Suzuki Cup Final races are held under production rules. I don't care about any other manufacture and where they pay, thats up to them, but as far Suzuki it needs to be in production. Every other club in the country that pays suzuki contingency puts the money in production classes.

I understand that the superbike class should have the fastest racers in the those classes but the production classes offer a lot of excitment as well.

Kim, thats great that you asked Chris V.A., If he knew what classes were getting paid how come he didn't anounce it then. A lot of people just went off the facts from last year which was that Suzuki paid in production. If suzuki didn't release their schedule till last week how would we have known to ask Chris either, i would think he be wiliing to give some kind of heads up before the season started like, "hey afm suzuki riders, suzuki is thinking about changing the classes so keep that in mind!!" that never happened.

You were smarter than most on that one, those pinapples must be real brain food!!!! ;)


Chris

[KimDN]

Oh, I eat way more than pineapples ;)
I'm not sure that Chris VA has been totally "in tune" with what Suzuki has been paying over the years. He probably didn't think anything of it, when Suzuki said they'd be paying in the SB classes.
American Suzuki has a new contingency person; they may have just looked at the last several years and saw that $ was mostly paid in Superbike, except for 05/06. I'm just guessing but that is one scenario.
I know that I told several people that it was my understanding that Suz. was paying in SB, and I know that pretty much no one believed me. Heck, I didn't even believe me; but I didn't want to take any chances, so I signed up for both prod and SB. The fast guys like Siggy, Wooldy, Combsy, Carlotty, etc, could all have easily done the SB races too, if going to the Cup Finals is the goal.
When it comes down to it, I'd be pissed too if I got zero Suzuki dollars when I was expecting to get 1500. Siggy and Wilson are the ones who really lose out (although I think Wilson doesn't care as much as Chris); IMO they are the only ones who have something to be upset about. Moneyshot doesn't need the $, hell most serious AFM racers can live without it.

[CTS488]

Exactly Kim, don't get me wrong, if suzuki wants to put the money in SB then fine with me i'll run my supersport bike against any superbike, hell i run it against the guys in FP and do alright there too. Heck i'm in front of andy a lot of the times!!! ;) (Don't get your panties in a bunch andy!)

I'm saying that it would make sense to leave it in prody if not give everyone a heads up on this stuff. 2 months after the season has started is not acceptable especially if they're going to be changing the class. I"m sure the money means the same to me as it does anyone else their riding, but being out 2,000 bucks is hard to shake off and not worry about.

Chris

[afmotorsports]

A little history on Suzuki contingency:

I have spoken to the former Suzuki contingency guy (Morgan Broadhead) for several years and he ALWAYS gave me $hit for the AFM with the stupid "stock exhaust" rule for the Production classes, so when we finally changed that rule two years ago I called him up and he immediately changed the Suzuki contingency to Production. He always told me that Suzuki wanted to pay in the supersport-type classes, not superbike. The Suzuki Cup program is supposed to help up-and-coming racers go around the country to collect Suzuki Cup money and help them get to the pro level.

I have no idea who the new guy is that replaced Morgan, but it's quite bizarre for them to intentionally put the money back in the superbike classes. I'm not sure what the "fix" is at this point because either way somebody will get pi$$ed off and feel "cheated" out of contingency money. We can all debate where WE THINK they should put the contingency money, but as far as I know it was always their intent to support the supersport/production classes.

[slickkitty]

Originally posted by Holeshot
Well AC, it's not like people don't run FX bikes in production...so they can run SB's in production as much as they like, so long as they aren't protested.

I feel the AFM should tear down the top 3 of ALL money classes.

Bingo... we have a winner!!!