April F40 Video

[Trackho]

This is a video of what instigated the drama about starting F2 in FRONT of F40--the unsafe stuff is me being grazed by another F40 rider whilst J, me and another being hung up behind a 250 going into T6 around lap 4 (?).

In general just a pathetic race due to the order of the waves

THanksto Simon for posting this on his website

April F40 Video (http://www.cheekydragonracing.com/new_page_1.htm)

[com3]

does this mean you're an icy hot stunna now? :twofinger

[TWF]

what is the problem.looks like everybody passed you safely on first lap :teeth

[Holeshot]

Wow. No wonder you're pissed. Bolles holeshotted!

I entirely fail to see the issue here. Traffic was worse in the Twins/ 750 prod race when we hit traffic...but we just dealt with it.

[afm199]

I hate to say it, but if you came upon a front runner with mech difficulties the situation would be exactly the same, and the standing rule is still pretty much that if you make sudden changes of direction you can expect unhappiness.

[Zerox]

I downloaded this expecting to see a melee and all I saw was a normal AFM race with normal AFM multi-wave traffic. :confused

[DirtyD]

Nice Video. And great sound too. It didn't look like the first wave was that much of a hindrance, but it may have looked differently to those that were actually in the race and not just sitting behind the computer screen. Thanks for posting the vid. I was happy to see a couple of wheelies late in the race. I was starting to think that you were riding an older ZX10 without a steering damper.:p

[NoQuarter]

from having recordered and posted a ton of onboard race vids, i'll say that what you see watching them is hardly representative of what you see and feel when actually riding. regardless of whether the video serves as good evidence for or against the argument, the notion of gridding F2 ahead of F40 is still a pretty bad one.

an Jeff, you shoulda dubbed in some impact noice for drama, it reallys adds to the oomph factor, here, dub the sound out of my getting clutch lever nearly torn off by Eslick last year at Fontana... :laughing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3761346693596059291&hl=en#0h6m00s

stupid slow ass lappers... oh wait, that was me. doh!

[Kurt]

holy speeding in the pits batman!!!

I saw you get balked into 6 and a fast pass by someone taking advantage, that's all.

I'm guessing that you F40 started before F2 you would have seen the same thing, just later in the race.

I didn't see the apocalypse.

[GESR1]

Great video Jeff.

The video may not have shown as much drama as we wold have liked; however, the concept of putting the 125's in front of the big bikes is somehting I'd like to avoid.
Jeff brings up a valid point.

As has already been discussed, the lines and closing speeds of the 2 strokes and the big bikes are an issue that requires some thought and conversation; thanks Jeff. Just because this may not have been a problem for all of us this particular race doesn't mean it won't be an issue down the road.

Jeff, you really need to stop letting Mr. Bolles get the hole shot. Somehow I could sense your thoughts through the video... :laughing

[Jimbo 460]

At least you only got grazed once. My first year racing, T-hill, Open GP started behind the 650's. I was being grazed, cut-off, and otherwise endangered starting at about 2 1/2 to 3 laps in. Then I got used to it...

[ZXR400SP]

For some reason it stops when it hits the buffer at the exit of T5 on the first lap. The only thing I can tell from the first five corners is at that Hagan's SV seems to have more power than the liter bike with the camera. ")

[com3]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
For some reason it stops when it hits the buffer at the exit of T5 on the first lap. The only thing I can tell from the first five corners is at that Hagan's SV seems to have more power than the liter bike with the camera. ")


right click the link and save the file before you view it.

[Robert R1]

good pass!

[ZXR400SP]

Well I was finally able to view the video and you sure are ranting about nothing. That was less traffic than I see in most of my races.

I assume your talking about the yellow bike about 6:40 into the video that you follow from T3 to the exit of T6, if so then I don't understand why you didn't pass him on the left or the right like ther other three, there certainly appears to be plenty of room. The others seem to get by just fine. And since you were following him for three corners your speed differential argument doesn't make much sense either. :teeth :teeth :teeth

[kevo]

Whew! Glad it wasn't me.

[summitdog]

It is hard to tell from the video but based on my observations of the pipe and the width of the tire the bike in question looks like a 4-stroke. Could it have been a slow F40 rider???

Scotty

[Trackho]

Originally posted by summitdog
It is hard to tell from the video but based on my observations of the pipe and the width of the tire the bike in question looks like a 4-stroke. Could it have been a slow F40 rider???

Scotty

Please tell me you kidding--ie NFW, if established in ther prevoius post it was in fact a 250 GP and confirmed by the video--now I AM scared

From original barf f40 post:

F40 Retarded Gridding (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201981)

"HiggyB
The Fat Chicken

As a newbie to FII (after spending time in 250SB) I'm a backmarker in my class and as such I had a lot of F40 folks passing me during that race (at times it was one at a time, in other cases I was sandwiched on both sides). I did my best to hold solid lines, I hope that worked out well enough*. All in all I never felt like danger was imminent but I feel that was due to some good effort from the F40 riders that passed me (even if those passes caused me to lose my drive a bit). A change here is well worth discussing as the/my experience may not be the same in the future...

GP and others: I take no offense from what's being said here, this isn't about ego it's about safety and y'all are raising a very fair points in my opinion.


*If anyone wants to berate me, offer me advice or criticisms then I'm all ears (#942, black/white/blue TZ250 - I've had my bike painted since the photo in my avatar ). I know I've got lots to learn and as such I'm open to the advice others might have to share to make me a better/safer rider out there"

[summitdog]

I am sure that your resolution is better than mine but it looks like a 600cc or maybe a 400cc bike. I know the bikes in the 400 class and I don't know anyone with the livery or color-scheme on their leathers.

The bike clealy has white plates though.

[HiggyB]

Originally posted by Trackho
Please tell me you kidding--ie NFW, if established in ther prevoius post it was in fact a 250 GP and confirmed by the video--now I AM scared

From original barf f40 post:

F40 Retarded Gridding (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201981)

"HiggyB
The Fat Chicken

As a newbie to FII ... "
Well Jeff, I'm here to burst your bubble a bit. In the original thread above I made the quoted post and Jeff asked if the situation sounded familiar and I thought it did as I did have a fair amount of F40 guys passing me and all. But I must say that at approximately 6:40 into the video you pass a bike that does not look like me. My bike is white with yellow plates, the back of my leathers is all blue and my helmet is red - none of which seems to match the bike in question (again, at that point in the vid). That having been said I tried watching the whole video, staring intently trying to find myself and couldn't (now my eyes are all tweaked out). I'm not sure what to tell you Jeff but after video review I just don't think that's me at 6:40 on the way in to T6...

[NoQuarter]

are all you guys on this thread total newbs at the intardweb or what?

the bike being passed at said point in said video is clearly # 380, Joe Rust of Pine Grove CA racing a '92 Honda 250.

www.garyratherphoto.com
www.unofficial-afm.com

'nuff said. :laughing :laughing :laughing

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/202/809/3135614-f40_thread.jpg

[kevo]

T-ho passed me at 6:09 on the straight. Couldn't be Higgy, as he finished after me. Joe finished ahead of me. And Dave's pic seals the deal.

[naked monkey]

Currently there are some pretty fast guys on big bikes in F40 but the rules allow almost any bike to be run in this class. There is no gaurantee that the F40 grid won't be full of you gray haired bastards on vintage bikes and Zumas at the next race. Then we'll have 250 guys complaining about the traffic.

[ianG]

Whether 2-strokes and open bikes should be gridded together aside, I saw nothing in this video to support the claim that it was a dangerous combination. Granted, video doesn't give an honest 'seat of the pants' perspective, but that was a pretty polite race if you ask me.

As far as #380 is concerned, he matched JT and Jeff's speed in T6 and was passed easily under power going up the drag strip.

I don't think this particular video provides any support as to why 2-strokes and open class bikes shouldn't be gridded together.

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by ianG


...As far as #380 is concerned, he matched JT and Jeff's speed in T6 and was passed easily under power going up the drag strip.

I don't think this particular video provides any support as to why 2-strokes and open class bikes shouldn't be gridded together.

Ian

I think there is one point you're missing. The conversation is mostly about closing speeds as well as lines differences.

Jeff's best lap was 1:47, Rust's 1:57. Rust wasn't matching Jeff as much as Jeff got held up, the rider who passes Jeff at a much higher rate on Jeff's right I think was Bouch, also running a best of 1:47 that race, so imagine if Jeff had decided to go around Rust to the right while Bouch was flying up behind them both.

Could Jeff had ridden differently so as to not get held up, that's for Jeff to say, but the speed differences are clearly demonstrated all over the video, and due to Sears having so many blind corners it is a bit more dangerous, more so with the slower 125's out ther in F2 as well as the faster 250's. In this particular instance the danger is more to Jeff and Bouch than to Rust if Jeff had decided to go around Rust to his right.

Maybe just an anomaly, maybe a larger issue.

[ianG]

I get the point, I just don't think it was argued very well. As far as closing speeds are concerned a 50mph difference is a stretch. The FII leader ran faster than the F40 leader. 10th place in both classes ran the same times. Last place in F40 was significantly slower than last place in FII.

Line differences might be a legitimate concern, but closing speeds are no different than if you started F40 in front and the FII leaders had to swim through F40 backmarkers.

Whether it was dangerous or not, the video doesn't provide any conclusive evidence, at least to me.

[Kurt]

it's fuckin' traffic, it happens every race?!? WTF?!?

I've passed someone going 20 seconds a lap slower than me, and I have been passed by someone going 20 seconds a lap faster than me!

Maybe we can have a race with just trackho on the grid, solo-style. Feed the laptime numbers back into the F40 data and insert him into the final results.

[ZXR400SP]

Originally posted by lokisdog
Ian

I think there is one point you're missing. The conversation is mostly about closing speeds as well as lines differences.

Jeff's best lap was 1:47, Rust's 1:57. Rust wasn't matching Jeff as much as Jeff got held up, the rider who passes Jeff at a much higher rate on Jeff's right I think was Bouch, also running a best of 1:47 that race, so imagine if Jeff had decided to go around Rust to the right while Bouch was flying up behind them both.



Better yet, imagine Jeff looking ahead and realizing that he we going to pass Rust and set up appropriately, as the three others in front of him did just before. Then Bouch wouldn't have to worry about Jeff swerving at the last minute into his path.

All classes have to deal with traffic, I've caught 250P riders from the wave in front before the end of the first lap of a race. All decent sized classes have both fast and slow riders in them. Deal with it, we have mixed grids, unless we drop practice and start racing both days we'll have them. And while it's a pain to have a slower class in front of you they too deserve to have open track at the beginning of a race once in awhile.

[markermck]

The pass in question happens (on my PC at least) at 6:50. The passer that nearly sideswipes Jeff is Bouch. The slower rider that Jeff is behind from about T4 through T6 does certainly appear to be Joe Rust as Dave suggested.

Yes Kurt, you're right, its just traffic when it comes down to it. I really think the main thing that made the traffic situation seem so pronounced this time was the unusually short delay between the 1st and 2nd waves due to the time required to set-up the T1 cones once the grid clears. We have been gridded in this order before, but I have never seen us catch so much traffic so quickly as we did this past event. Naturally, the sooner the 2nd wave catches the 1st wave, the closer the riders in the first wave will still be together normally, so the shorter delay between waves really did seem make it a bit extreme as compared to the norm.

I was never really that held up to speak of during that race, but it was pretty constant and you really had to stay on your toes far more than normal in order to manage the "competition" plus the "lappers" so to speak. The two seemed to converge at the same point quite frequently during that race. Plus if I'd have been nearly run into as I started to go around another rider, I may have felt a bit more strongly like Jeff does. The fact is though, from my own perspective, it was a very busy race and at times did feel more dangerous than normal.

As for the suggesting that Jeff run a solo race, let's go one further and just use our practice laps times to determine where each of us placed in each practice group and call it a day. ;)

[Zerox]

Originally posted by Kurt
Maybe we can have a race with just trackho on the grid, solo-style. Feed the laptime numbers back into the F40 data and insert him into the final results.

Who is going to clean up the Wheat Thins I just shot-gunned onto my keyboard whilst laughing?

[lokisdog]

Originally posted by ZXR400SP
Better yet, imagine Jeff looking ahead and realizing that he we going to pass Rust and set up appropriately, as the three others in front of him did just before. Then Bouch wouldn't have to worry about Jeff swerving at the last minute into his path.

Yes, he might have done it differently, that's for sure. Maybe he could have even tried the banzai cut across the track move whoever was in front of Jeff pulled coming out of turn 4 to get around Rust before Jeff and Rust go into the Carousel. Take a good look at that one and tell me that looked safe. Not exactly what I'd call "set up appropriately"...

All classes have to deal with traffic, I've caught 250P riders from the wave in front before the end of the first lap of a race. All decent sized classes have both fast and slow riders in them. Deal with it, we have mixed grids, unless we drop practice and start racing both days we'll have them. And while it's a pain to have a slower class in front of you they too deserve to have open track at the beginning of a race once in awhile.

Tue enough everyone has to deal with traffic. You can choose to 'deal with it', we're trying to fix it. Two-days of racing, change the gridding order, whatever, I'm open for suggestions. Maybe not the best methods/delivery used by Jeff but at least it's an attempt to make improvements.

IIRC this is your first year on the 750, run the year on the 750 and then let's chat again in Sept...

[ZXR400SP]

Originally posted by lokisdog
Yes, he might have done it differently, that's for sure. Maybe he could have even tried the banzai cut across the track move whoever was in front of Jeff pulled coming out of turn 4 to get around Rust before Jeff and Rust go into the Carousel. Take a good look at that one and tell me that looked safe. Not exactly what I'd call "set up appropriately"...

It wasn't pretty but I wouldn't say it was dangerous either. There was obviously room on either side of Joe to make a pass. I have been on track alot with Joe, he doesn't weave and is very predictable. That being said I would have thought at least one of the three behind him going into T3 should have passed him down the hill before T4 with their liter bike Hp. The only one making good passes was Bouch, he passed Gruetter, Rust and at least one other in the carousel on that pass.



[i]True enough everyone has to deal with traffic. You can choose to 'deal with it', we're trying to fix it. Two-days of racing, change the gridding order, whatever, I'm open for suggestions. Maybe not the best methods/delivery used by Jeff but at least it's an attempt to make improvements. [/B]

I agree it would be nice to change some things but this started with the sky is falling and it really wasn't. I really have had worse traffic in most of the 450P races. No, I'm not used to liter bike speeds, but it's a helluva lot easier to pass someone with that kind of power than the other way around.

I'm all for two days of racing but I don't believe the majority will give up more practice time. Gridding multiple waves is always a balance issue. Gridding F40 in front of FII all the time, (if the two continue to be gridded together), isn't fair to the leaders of FII who are often as fast or faster than the leaders of F40, and then have to make their way past slow liter bikes that outrun them in the straights and park it in the corners. As long as we have large grids and lots of classes there will have to be compromises. I think in general kevin does a good job balancing the gridding.



[i]IIRC this is your first year on the 750, run the year on the 750 and then let's chat again in Sept... [/B]

Yes, my first year on a stupid slow 600, (it's only got 45 more Hp than my 400), running it in the 750 class for fun. 750P really isn't much faster than the 600 class and it isn't as large or competitive a grid. I'll probably do F40 next time too.

I'll only be making select appearances while I finish remodeling my house. But I don't think I'll change my opinion much. This is my fifth year of racing and I've never had lots of Hp to help me pass people, I've used braking and corner speed, which is how I made all of my passes on the 750's in 750P.