Thunderhill Walk Through by Michael Earnest

[MrCrash]

Michael just updated his original walk-through for a Thunderhill newsletter. He asked if I could post it for him here as well.

*****

This is a description of a FAST lap piloting a 185HP GSXR-1000 at Thunderhill Park by 23 year veteran motorcycle racer Michael Earnest of www.PacificTrackTime.com. Holding 30 events a year, PTT offers open track time, competition licensing, schools, and lots of fun. If you want to go fast on your motorcycle, Pacific Track Time is the group to ride with.

Thunderhill Raceway is located in Willows, CA, just an hour and a half north of Sacramento off of I-5. The track has over three miles of high speed sweeping turns, blind corners, doglegs and dramatic elevation changes that makes this challenging track very popular with motorcyclists. Thunderhill is a very safe track with plenty of runoff and 36' wide pavement offers exceptional grip. Thanks to Mike Solis of CityBike magazine for providing the exceptional photos.

NOW LET'S RIDE!!!

[MrCrash]

Turn 1

Coming up the front straight, shift at redline in every gear at 175 mph in 6th gear with the throttle pinned on my 185 HP 2007 Suzuki GSXR-1000 approaching T1. Move to the right side of the track to set up for T1, a wide 115 MPH left hand turn.

After braking hard and downshifting twice, square it off with a late apex, turn in and aim for the last part of the inside curb while rolling to positive throttle with your knee just skimming the curbing.

Open the throttle soon here because the exit of the turn is uphill leading onto a relatively long straight to T2. With the throttle wide open the bike will slide to the outside edge of the track. The front end becomes light and will headshake as you crest the hill into a wheelie as you stand the bike upright for maximum acceleration.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321028-img_0057__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 2

Over rev 4th gear as you come down into Turn 2, a fast, sweeping 180 degree left-hand turn. Brake hard, downshift to 3rd trail braking to the inside. Once you're off the brakes, aim to keep the bike within two feet of inside of track before completing the first 1/3rd of turn. Maintain positive throttle throughout the turn. Rolling to full throttle on the exit the rear tire will spin to finish off the corner. Hold 3rd gear wide open and use about 2/3rds of the track on the exit. Aim to left side of track for upcoming T3.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321043-img_0063__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 3

Set up for off-camber right hand Turn 3 about 1/3rd of the way from the left edge of the track. Brake hard, turn in aggressively using the flat cambered section before cutting across the off camber section entering T3. Aim roughly 5 feet from inside of T3, gradually turning in to bring knee over last bit of curbing on right, setting up for a late apex T4 while maintaining positive throttle control.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321048-img_0072__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 4

Turn in late with bike tight across curbing on left rolling on throttle aggressively spinning the rear tire to finish off the corner, standing the bike up for a brief wide open throttle drive up the steep hill approaching T5. Allow bike to drift under acceleration to very edge of track on right to set up for T5, Thunderhill's infamous Cyclone.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321049-img_0077__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 5

The Cyclone has a steep uphill approach with a sharp blind left dropping into a steep, downhill right (T5a). Wait until the last second before steering left and rolling to positive throttle, heading for the inside curb at the top the hill. Most of the turning is done before the crest using the additional traction. The bike is beginning to come upright over the hill and your body is ready to shift to the right for the T5-A downhill right turn. Since the exit of T5 is an elevator drop, bike will momentarily not have much grip until it settles.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321053-img_0082__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 5a

Turning to the right for T5A aiming approximately 4 feet from inside of track using positive throttle as you pass the G out at the bottom. When the suspension compresses as the bike G’s out use the added grip to turn in for a tighter exit. Roll throttle, spinning the rear to finish the corner with a brief full throttle blast as you look towards your T6 entry.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321057-img_0083__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 6

Brake hard on the approach to Turn 6. Turn aggressively pulling bike as tight as possible mid corner. Passing mid-corner, begin rolling the throttle to the stop, the rear tire will spin on the exit assisting in finishing the turn. Drifting to the right curbing as the bike stands upright, while power wheeling on the exit, grab a quick upshift. Your drive is important here for Turn 7, a high-speed left-hand kink. Grab another upshift before leaning the bike over for Turn 7, which is taken at full throttle.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321060-img_0090__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 7

The camber in Turn 7 is slightly negative, upsetting the chassis just slightly, and interferes with your sighting of the corner exit. The bike will shake, spin and slide, at over 140mph. Don’t back out of this aggressive section as it is imperative for a quick lap time.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321067-img_0093__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 8

Speed through Turn 8 is very important for a good lap time because it exits into an uphill straight. Set up on right, 1/2 inch inside of concrete patch. Brake hard, downshift, and late apex - aim for the second part of the inside curb with your inside knee over the curbing. Roll to full throttle early for a good drive up the hill towards Turn 9. Upshift as the bike wheelies up the hill and allow it to drift wide right.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321071-img_0097__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 9

Turn 9 is a 90-degree left that crests a blind hill with a large amount of positive camber at the entrance. Aggressively brake late on the right side of the track, bang a downshift and throw it in. Aim for the inside curb while rolling the throttle on. Do not turn too much to the left, only the amount necessary to stay on the track. The bike will wheelie as you crest the hill almost running off the right edge of the track. As you bring the bike upright at the crest, upshift early to allow the bike to settle and the front wheel will stay low. Use the momentum of the steep downhill for the wide open 150mph straight. Grab one more upshift, head toward the right side of the track to set up for Turn 10.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321074-img_0102__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 10

Brake hard, downshift twice, steer left aiming to strafe the inside curb. Grip is very good there with the exit opening up. Be smooth on the throttle, rolling to full throttle on the exit. The rear tire will spin and the bike will drift to the edge of the track. The straight between T10 and T11 may be short, but still important to be wide open.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321076-img_0112__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 11

The T11-T13 complex is a momentum section, carry lots of entry speed as all the quick turns will scrub off speed unless maintaining positive throttle. Setting up on the right edge of the track, brake hard, downshift once, square off, and aim for the second part of the inside curb as you keep the bike very tight. Use the positive camber on the inside, aiming to make the bike turn sharply. The bike will slide to the right on the exit as you finish T11 on the gas. Sliding to the exit curbing, you are immediately in T12, so prepare yourself for a quick body position swap.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321081-img_0114__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 12 / 13

For the best lap time, do your best to straighten out this section. Using a snapping transition, maintain the throttle into Turn 12 - a right hand kink in the T11-T12-T13 combination. Grab a quick upshift exiting T12 beginning a turn in that will put you tight at the center of T13. Roll to full throttle through Turn 13 as the bike stands up on the exit and will drift to the outside edge of the track while spinning.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321083-img_0118__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 14

Holding 5th gear down the back straight at well over 140mph, bring the bike to the left side of the track to set up for Turn 14, a slow, decreasing radius right. Brake hard after crossing under the bridge, three downshifts and wait for the rear tire to settle before trail braking to the inside of the turn. Roll the throttle to the stop, with a quick upshift on the exit allowing the bike to drift wide under acceleration.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321084-img_0123__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Turn 15

Drifting to the left side of the track, use a late apex and square off T15 with knee over the curbing as you exit the right-hander that leads onto the long front straight. The bike will slide under acceleration to the outside edge of the track on the exit. As the bike wheelies and slides, don’t let up even if the bike is on the curbing – it’s just more positive camber, use it ! Hold it wide open as the bike stands up, keeping your weight forward.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/213/893/3321087-img_0132__small_.jpg

[MrCrash]

Continue to upshift as you accelerate up the high-speed front straight heading for the Start/Finish line. Rip off a 150 mph victory wheelie as you wave to your fans.

BRING IT ON !!!!!

Michael Earnest AFM #26 / AMA #70
2007 GSXR-1000 185 HP
Best Lap Time 1:49.9
www.PacificTrackTime.com

[Ratters]

I will never ever have a lap like that as long as I live.

Almost makes me appreciate being the slow guy that I am. :teeth

[purluv420]

Famous last words from most besides Earnest and a few others.

"The bike will slide under acceleration to the outside edge of the track on the exit."

:laughing

[trkdydumper]

how come my speedo never reads that high... can some one fix it?

[Hooli]

Just what I need. Text copied and saved, pics saved in my "I wanna be like Mike" folder. Thanks! :p

[R1P]

:cool Michael mentions downshifting to 3rd coming into T2; his next shift is an upshift after T6. Does he pull 3rd through this whole section? I would imagine his bike is geared lower to redline around 175mph but 3rd still seems too high for T3-T5. Also does he downshift coming into T8?

[2strokeYardSale]

The bike will slide to the right on the exit
Not if I can help it.

[ColinP]

shiiiit. everytime i slide my bike i gotta pit and change my underwear.

[Hoologan]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike

Best Lap Time 1:49.9


:wow holy....

[Paulo666]

Good info to learn from, very detailed...

[slickkitty]

Michael makes my panties wet...

[paroxysm]

HAHAHA I SOOOOOOOO read that wrong. I was like, WTF, that bastard is only 23? Shit the years have been hard on him :)

Anyway, fuck, 1:49.9? I couldn't ride my bike in a 3 mile straight line that fast! I really need to get out there next time a "The Fast Way Around T-Hill" school comes up.

[sparky80]

I would imagine that a big liter bike could easily do speeds in excess of 130 mph in third gear. My tracked R6 with lowered gearing can prolly do 110 in third so staying in third seems do-able. If that's the way Mike has it laid out, it's prolly a good starting point... for the fast guys.

I'd love to see a report done on a 600cc bike and to know when he shifts at. He'd still prolly mention that "the bike will slide to the exit of the turn" which seems crazy on a little 600. Too bad Thunderhill isn't on Tourist Trophy.... I might come close to his times on that game... but in real life... not even close.

[bafflebrain]

Good post. I'll try some of the tips next time I am back.

[glnn01]

Originally posted by sparky80
I would imagine that a big liter bike could easily do speeds in excess of 130 mph in third gear. My tracked R6 with lowered gearing can prolly do 110 in third so staying in third seems do-able. If that's the way Mike has it laid out, it's prolly a good starting point... for the fast guys.

I'd love to see a report done on a 600cc bike and to know when he shifts at. He'd still prolly mention that "the bike will slide to the exit of the turn" which seems crazy on a little 600. Too bad Thunderhill isn't on Tourist Trophy.... I might come close to his times on that game... but in real life... not even close.

I found this how-to Mike Earnest did on a 2003 R6:

http://www.unofficial-afm.com/t-hill.html

Apparently he was able to hit 140mph along that front straight.

[VillageIdiot]

Awesome.

How generous of Solis and Earnest to post this...:applause.


A couple of Bad Motor Scooters on bikes. Is there any wonder why I attend PTT? :D

[kxmike]

I like his line in Turn 8...."set up 1/2 inch inside of concrete patch".

Damn...I've been turning in 5/8 of an inch from the edge...:laughing .

Actually, I thought the fast guys were hitting the concrete before turning in...when I try it, it unsettles the bike....I like Michael's line better:cool .

[VillageIdiot]

Earnest and Solis have made me soo much better of a rider. I really cant thank them enough honestly.

They took me from street squid to a level where some of my peers are asking me for instruction, and trying to find the magic. I shit you not.

I have a real long way to go before a bad day doesn't completely crush me yet. My moto- confidence is real fragile but their helping me rebuild it.:angel

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by glnn01
I found this how-to Mike Earnest did on a 2003 R6:

http://www.unofficial-afm.com/t-hill.html

Apparently he was able to hit 140mph along that front straight.

Thanks for posting that - it's the original version of what Michael just re-did, and the same version that exists in the AFM programs at Thunderhill events.

The newer one is a bit more exciting!

Originally posted by R1P
:cool Michael mentions downshifting to 3rd coming into T2; his next shift is an upshift after T6. Does he pull 3rd through this whole section? I would imagine his bike is geared lower to redline around 175mph but 3rd still seems too high for T3-T5. Also does he downshift coming into T8?

I'm sure a 1000 could pull through that section if geared correctly. I'd probably have trouble loading the front end into 5 if I approached without a downshift. Of course, that's just me - Michael's at another level.

You'll be there on the 13th, right?

[Yody]

I have a really steeply geared low powered 600 and the shifting techniques he explains here worked perfect on my bike. I was hitting the revlimiter coming out of a lot of turns and was killing my drive. The upshift techniques worked wonders for me. It felt like I was getting a huge turbo boost by following these guidelines on shifting. I owe Mike Solis all the credit for it. I don't think it really matters 600 or 1000 even though at first glance you would think it does.

What a great write up. After attending numerous PTT trackdays(like all 6 lol) and attending the PTT school, reading writeups like this really makes you wish you could get some 1 on 1 with the dude. However IMO the next best thing is getting help from the other Mike (solis).

[MrCrash]

Michael just gave me a ring a minute ago. He sounded pretty stoked at how his write-up was being received, and wanted to elaborate on a few things as well.

- He actually does downshift into 8. I'm going to edit that after I finish up this post.

- His gearing allows him to carry 3rd all the way from 2 to 6, which lets him keep his rpms low. If he were to use a different gear with higher rpms, The rotation of the crank would make the bike harder to turn, and he wouldn't be able to get the bike through the section as quickly. It also allows him to pull out of corners without the spinning the wheel.

[Yody]

so if he downshifts for 8, does he upshift on the straight before 9 and then downshift again into 9?

Does ME know about the huge Barf turnout that will be going down on the 13th?

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ABN
Earnest and Solis have made me soo much better of a rider. I really cant thank them enough honestly.

They took me from street squid to a level where some of my peers are asking me for instruction, and trying to find the magic. I shit you not.


:x

I try and ask you but you keep feeding me that "Dude I'm so slow" line. :hand :rolleyes

Ya' sandbagger. :p

:twofinger

[VillageIdiot]

You never asked me. You just said "Oh look the fast guy" or whatever. :laughing

If you need help bro you know where to find me :)

[kyles here]

Originally posted by yody
so if he downshifts for 8, does he upshift on the straight before 9 and then downshift again into 9?

Does ME know about the huge Barf turnout that will be going down on the 13th?
i dunno how huge its really going to be, i think its just the same ppl whoring 50 pages:laughing

[CaliGuy2004]

Originally posted by kyles here
i dunno how huge its really going to be, i think its just the same ppl whoring 50 pages:laughing

Actually i think its gona be at least over 25 people.

[kyles here]

no way....

[fawndog]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike Michael just gave me a ring a minute ago. He sounded pretty stoked at how his write-up was being received, and wanted to elaborate on a few things as well.

- He actually does downshift into 8. I'm going to edit that after I finish up this post.

- His gearing allows him to carry 3rd all the way from 2 to 6, which lets him keep his rpms low. If he were to use a different gear with higher rpms, The rotation of the crank would make the bike harder to turn, and he wouldn't be able to get the bike through the section as quickly. It also allows him to pull out of corners without the spinning the wheel.

I knew I wasn't crazy, I'm learning from Earnest and I'm not even on a bike.

[Yody]

Originally posted by fawndog
I knew I wasn't crazy, I'm learning from Earnest and I'm not even on a bike.

Funny that he mentioned that, because of the few times I have ridden a liter bike, I noticed at speed it was much harder to initiate a turn, the bikes felt much more stable at higher speed but that is exactly what it "kinda" felt like. The rotational mass of the bigger stroke crank/more reciprocating weight/torque made the bike harder to lean/turn. I think this is another reason that 600's make easier to ride trackbikes. The higher revving lighter motors help to make the bike much more flickable...................I think :shhh :laughing

[Ratters]

Originally posted by yody
so if he downshifts for 8, does he upshift on the straight before 9 and then downshift again into 9?

Does ME know about the huge Barf turnout that will be going down on the 13th?

Oh sweet, another thread to postwhore about this day. :D

[zx6roxy]

Awesome writeup Mike & Mike:p

[kyles here]

holy shit! i just went through all 3 threads and theres gonna be 28 confirmed barfers there!

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ABN
If you need help bro you know where to find me :)

Behind me? :confused

:p

[Ratters]

Originally posted by Hooli
Behind me? :confused

:p

:laughing

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Hooli
Behind me? :confused

:p Only when I'm about to lap you ;) again :p

Ride with PTT more often and you wont have that problem :)

[Shadybee]

Thanks for the great writeup, I'll be there on the 13th and you can bet that I'll be trying to imitate Michael's' lines.
1:49? not even in my dreams, but I'd be stoked with a 2:15. :teeth
Thanks for the post!!!!! :applause

[Bikerx260]

Originally posted by slickkitty
Michael makes my panties wet...

You should have seen him in his 'mullet' days!

[Jakemate]

Originally posted by Shadybee
Thanks for the great writeup, I'll be there on the 13th and you can bet that I'll be trying to imitate Michael's' lines.
1:49? not even in my dreams, but I'd be stoked with a 2:15. :teeth
Thanks for the post!!!!! :applause

If you get the chance, sign up for PTT's next fast way around T-Hill. It will take big chunks off your lap time.

From what M.E. told me, it is going to be even better than the last one. It sounds like they are going to have much more support and feedback.

The last school was off the hook. It helped me a LOT.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Jakemate
If you get the chance, sign up for PTT's next fast way around T-Hill. It will take big chunks off your lap time.

From what M.E. told me, it is going to be even better than the last one. It sounds like they are going to have much more support and feedback.

The last school was off the hook. It helped me a LOT. X50000000000000000 Jake. :cool

[Shadybee]

Thanks for the advice Jake, I'd love to sign up for one of those days. This Monday will be my second trackday (both at T-hill). The first one was spent trying to overcome that nervous, excited, "oh my God I'm on a track" feeling.
I spent most of the day in C group, and it wasn't until I bumped up to B for the last few sessions that I was finally able to follow some faster riders and get an idea of the best lines to take. I think I managed a 2:22, which is by no means fast, but I was happy with it.
This walk through was very helpful in gaining some insight into corners that had me stumped; Transition from T2 into 3, and the best line through 14 and 15. I can't imagine how helpful a school would be. It would probably be like night and day for me.
I'll definitely look into it.

[R1P]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
You'll be there on the 13th, right? You betcha; there's going to be a crew of 10+ barfers that I ride with going.

I just got back from the Red Shift Laguna trackday; it was amazing. The instructors there helped me out on my first day there by talking thru the track like Mike did, but without the Earnest flair. I posted a 1:39.86, which I'm told is a decent time. I couldn't have come up to speed so quickly without their tutelage. I can't wait to put Mike’s tricks to the test on Mon. :teeth

[Yody]

There is a CLASS school coming up at T-hill in October that I was thinking about going to, however I WOULD GO TO ANOTHER PTT SCHOOL in a heartbeat in the fall over those guys.

So who else would love to do a winter/fall PTT FAST WAY AROUND THE TRACK SCHOOL?? Last one was great but I'd bet the second will much more refined, sign me up now.:leghump :leghump

[Jakemate]

Originally posted by yody
There is a CLASS school coming up at T-hill in October that I was thinking about going to, however I WOULD GO TO ANOTHER PTT SCHOOL in a heartbeat in the fall over those guys.

So who else would love to do a winter/fall PTT FAST WAY AROUND THE TRACK SCHOOL?? Last one was great but I'd bet the second will much more refined, sign me up now.:leghump :leghump

Depends on how shoulder #2 holds up. I was planning on having it done in Nov.

[Yody]

Originally posted by Jakemate
Depends on how shoulder #2 holds up. I was planning on having it done in Nov.

:kicknuts NOT enthusiasm I was looking for :twofinger

[Ratters]

If they do it again I'll sign up with ya yody. ;)

I'm thinking about doing pridmore's school too. Just won't know till I go back to work if I can get the days off. Hope it won't be sold out by then.

[Hooli]

Originally posted by ABN
Only when I'm about to lap you ;) again :p



*jumps up and down and points at computer screen*

SEE? SEE? I TOLD YOU HE WAS FAST! LIES, ALL LIES I SAY!

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Hooli
*jumps up and down and points at computer screen*

SEE? SEE? I TOLD YOU HE WAS FAST! LIES, ALL LIES I SAY! I think people around these parts base fast on lap times.

I'm not trying to burn lap times, I'm trying to "master" my surroundings ergo I'm not fast. I can't train my muscle memory if all I'm doing is trying to go "as fast as I can".

I believe you gain speed through a disciplined approach of things. Not just trying to "do okay". I'm looking to hit the same marks every time in the section I'm choosing to focus on.

So "fast" nah bro, I'm training, I dont get enough track time to waste it.

You only need two things to be fast.

1. Track time
2. Tires.

Someone with an overabundance of that two above will be fast. It's all a matter of learning though.

Does one want to learn the hard way? (it fucking hurts trust me :))

Or does one one to learn the easy way? (The program is there why fuck with it?).

Me I cant afford to crash or waste track time. So I choose to make the most of it. Which means I intentionally lay off the throttle everywhere else and only focus on what I've chosen to focus on. Lap times are just lap times. It doesn't tell me if I'm doing it right.

In short according to mosts definition I am not fast.

But thats why I typically dont look to my peers for help. Why? I can go 10 feet and ask a pro. Seems a bit silly to me. :)

Anyone with patience and experience can assist new riders on the track even you Jeff have experience that could help a new rider right? But once someone advances past that they need a different level of training and advice.

Learning things the right way from the start I think is key. I dont like crashing I'm trying to minimize how much I do it :laughing

Here's an example, because most folks are eager to help they can be presumptious, where as if I'm only working with a select group they KNOW where I am at and where I need to work and can provide me the direction neccessary to achieve my goals. Not just throw out facts and figures based on what "THEY" *think* I need to hear. It's what it is.

"Sometimes in order to go fast sometimes you have to slow down" Michael Earnest.

Jeff if I didnt believe in the program you can bet I would go elsewhere and not focus on days with them or promote them. I have the luxury of saying what I mean and think honestly in the MC world. Seems most do not.

[Yody]

Originally posted by ABN
:blah :blah ............sandbagger........:blah :blah :blah

:laughing

[clutchslip]

Originally posted by CityBikeMike
Continue to upshift as you accelerate up the high-speed front straight heading for the Start/Finish line. Rip off a 150 mph victory wheelie as you wave to your fans.

BRING IT ON !!!!!


Okay ABN and friends. You need to have Mr. E. do one of his 150 mph wheelies down the drag-strip for you AND drop-it into one at a buck+.
How many gears do you shift, Michael? 3 or 4?
Don't try this at home, kids. :laughing

[VillageIdiot]

Shit brother I had Eanest blow past me one wheel up on the left and Call on the right both giving thumbs up while I had the throttle pinned on my little 58 hp monster.

Couple of studs I tell you. :laughing

[Ratters]

Originally posted by ABN


Me I cant afford to crash or waste track time. So I choose to make the most of it. Which means I intentionally lay off the throttle everywhere else and only focus on what I've chosen to focus on. Lap times are just lap times. It doesn't tell me if I'm doing it right.


Aren't lap times the ultimate measure of doing it right? :twofinger Plus there are many different thoughts on how to do it right. Michael's is much different than say Pridmore's, but they're both fucking fast.

I think you are taking this way too seriously. Are you planning on racing eventually, or are you out there for fun? For me it's all just pure fun, along with the challenge of doing something well that if you screw up could really hurt, which adds to the fun. Hell, if I just wanted to go fast around turns I'd drive ten minutes to discovery kingdom and hop on a coaster. ;) But Jason, we all know you're a fast guy, and we just love to call you a bagger. It adds to our fun. :p

I think you just need to get your confidence back buddy. I'm gonna bring you my Lee Parks Total Control book on Monday. He has a whole chapter on it I think you'll find helpful. :thumbup

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by Ratters
Aren't lap times the ultimate measure of doing it right? :twofinger Plus there are many different thoughts on how to do it right. Michael's is much different than say Pridmore's, but they're both fucking fast.

I think you are taking this way too seriously. Are you planning on racing eventually, or are you out there for fun? For me it's all just pure fun, along with the challenge of doing something well that if you screw up could really hurt, which adds to the fun. Hell, if I just wanted to go fast around turns I'd drive ten minutes to discovery kingdom and hop on a coaster. ;) But Jason, we all know you're a fast guy, and we just love to call you a bagger. It adds to our fun. :p

I think you just need to get your confidence back buddy. I'm gonna bring you my Lee Parks Total Control book on Monday. He has a whole chapter on it I think you'll find helpful. :thumbup No racing is bad :laughing. I have enough obligations currently that racing is not an option. When I do have enough free time racing is still not an option.

But I go to the track to in this order.

1.Have Fun :)
2.To improve myself. (track riding is zen like to me. all the bad goes away)
3. To continue to have marked progress and learn. :)

[Oz]

Originally posted by ABN

But thats why I typically dont look to my peers for help. Why? I can go 10 feet and ask a pro. Seems a bit silly to me. :)

Anyone with patience and experience can assist new riders on the track even you Jeff have experience that could help a new rider right? But once someone advances past that they need a different level of training and advice.

Learning things the right way from the start I think is key. I dont like crashing I'm trying to minimize how much I do it :laughing

Here's an example, because most folks are eager to help they can be presumptious, where as if I'm only working with a select group they KNOW where I am at and where I need to work and can provide me the direction neccessary to achieve my goals. Not just throw out facts and figures based on what "THEY" *think* I need to hear. It's what it is.

"Sometimes in order to go fast sometimes you have to slow down" Michael Earnest.



ABN,

I find it interesting how you think that only "pro's" can help you.
Or that certain people that you ride with are the only ones that know what you are doing wrong and know what to tell you.

How do you know this if you've never tried anything else?

When I first started riding on the track, one of the things that helped me the most was trying to get as many different perspectives on my riding. I would ride with as many instructors or friends with more experience as I could. Each one had a different way of looking at things and I used what worked the best for me.
It just seems like you've closed your self off to anyone else helping you.

Just an opinion and you know what they say about those....

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by BigOz
ABN,

I find it interesting how you think that only "pro's" can help you.
Or that certain people that you ride with are the only ones that know what you are doing wrong and know what to tell you.

How do you know this if you've never tried anything else?

When I first started riding on the track, one of the things that helped me the most was trying to get as many different perspectives on my riding. I would ride with as many instructors or friends with more experience as I could. Each one had a different way of looking at things and I used what worked the best for me.
It just seems like you've closed your self off to anyone else helping you.

Just an opinion and you know what they say about those.... Oh I dont disagree with you.

If I seem closed off I'm not. What I am though is comfortable with the program I'm currently working off of. I am completley comfortable with those I'm working with. More over the same people I've ridden with on the street ride with ptt. So yes my peers do give me feedback. But it's those I trust and know. But still if I'm there with friends, and there is an instructor ten feet from me I could.

A.)Listen to my friends, who may be running about the same pace, or less, or slightly faster.

Or

B.)Walk over grab an instructor, and get help.

As a matter of fact my regimented approach to riding comes from one of your instructors who mind you wasn't an instructor with you at the time. Now currently working with PTT they've hammered home alot of the same principles that were laid in the groundwork of my riding, and built upon that foundation.


Seems to me the best bang for the buck is to grab an instructor. But hey what do I know?

I do intend to ride with Z2 when time and money allows it. My understanding is you guys are good at what you do. Besides I like and respect Pete. Although I heard that guy Berto is a fag :p j/k. I rode with Kweigwins and I really enjoyed it:) But again I have my choice where I can spend my cash so I do and will continue to do so. When I do I plan to do write up thank the appropriate people and it will be an honest write up given from my perspective.

No different than I've done for anyone or anything else. It's part of my MO.:)

What I am is focused I imagine that could be interpeted as "not fun" to me it's extremely fun :)

But I assure you if I didn't passionatley believe what I wrote, I just wouldn't write it.

The folks I mention are those I have loyalties to for improving me mostly as a rider sometimes as a person. I'm obligated by honor to thank them as often and as much as possible.

"loyalty prized above all else".

[Oz]

Fairenough....

But I'm not saying any of this so you come and do a Z2 trackday.
Just try and get as much input from different people.
If that means going to different trackday organizers then so be it.
Try them all...

Keigwins
Z2
STAR
CLASS
Code
Ect...

Good Luck on your track improvements and have a good time:thumbup

I wish there was a weekend day at Thill with PTT. I'd like to come out and ride. Michael is an awesome guy for sure!

[sparky80]

Oh, this has become a fun subject as of late and even better since I know three of you personally (ABN, Ratters, and BigOz).

I've heard Oz rave about Z2 and their instruction but their schedule doesn't coincide with mine too well so I've yet to do a trackday with them. PTT and K@TT are great though Michael's people are a bit more "showmanship" type of riding with Corey being the lead clown in the circus.

Pesonally, I like EMA. It's an open format and you can run as long as your body, tires and fuel will let ya. There are obviously fast guys and some terribly slow guys but its a good mix and people leave ya alone.

Jason, ya gotta lighten up a bit bro. ULTIMATELY, lap times are the indicator of how good you are. They say that John Hopkins has one of the best forms in all of motorsports, but that hasn't won him anything in the MotoGP realms. Ben Spies somewhat overexaggerated form with his elbows going everywhere doesnt seem "right" but his style has done him wonders.

I just go out there and ride and get pointers from anybody that's faster than me. Granted, there might be guys that are slower than me on a less potent bike, but I generally tend to ignore what they say... though it might be the wrong approach.

Eight trackdays later and NO formal instruction and I'm still having a blast. When I get to the point where my lap times aren't going down then I'll seek "professional" help... till then I'll just have a blast and hang out with some great peeps.

[VillageIdiot]

:laughing, James I hear you. I understand what lap times are, and what they do bro. But my objective isn't to burn them. My current times on the SV are "aigghht". But hell I've yet to actually "try" and go fast on it. All I've been doin is working on stuff. :) I guess this is the key for lap times with me. It only matters if your times would put you up front in a race. Because if you have mid-pack times than they are irrelevant, and you're preforming mediocre. So in short :laughing, I hear people running their mouth's about their laptimes all day, yet in the end. Not all of them are telling the truth :).

So let's say that theoretically I'm running a 215 on an sv while I'm only truely letting loose the throttle for the section I'm working on, and taking the rest of the track easy.

Does that mean that I'm capable of only running 215's?

Or the other side of the coin is let's say I put in a hot lap of 209's. Does this mean I'm running 209's?

I say the 215's are MORE true than the 209's because they are more consistently on the rider's timer.

I say a lap timer for a rider of my caliber (which isn't much) is more of a tool, than it is dogma or gospel. It helps me to judge what progress I'm making where.

So yes i agree, with you, and no I dont agree with you. When it comes down to instruction I eat that shit alive, anything and all I can learn I'm voracious for.

But like you said it's kind of hard to take advice from those you're eating alive no? Or even those that are giving their all but still can barely stay in front. :)

I think honestly it does come down to having fun. Although to an outsider I imagine it sounds like "work". It's just my way of approaching riding.

[Hooli]

Originally posted by clutchslip
Okay ABN and friends. You need to have Mr. E. do one of his 150 mph wheelies down the drag-strip for you AND drop-it into one at a buck+.


Yes.

I saw him doing that at the last Keigwin trackday. :(

[clutchslip]

Originally posted by Hooli
Yes.

I saw him doing that at the last Keigwin trackday. :(

Hmmm...Reminds me of what I said about trackdays in my big thread: You just never know who will show up. :laughing

I think BigOz is trying to re-enforce something that has been said before: Listen to different folks, you might pick something up. The best basketball coaches aren't always the best players.

I wish all the good riders would stop helping everyone. I am too old and scared and the only thing I have is instinct and knowledge. Now, I don't have that advantage. Boo-hooo00 :cry

Oh btw, Mr. Earnest and Mr. Solis, it's a very good description for going fast around T-hill. I can't use it, 'cause I ain't that brave. But I am sure others can utilize it.

[antarius]

Originally posted by R1P
:cool Michael mentions downshifting to 3rd coming into T2; his next shift is an upshift after T6. Does he pull 3rd through this whole section? I would imagine his bike is geared lower to redline around 175mph but 3rd still seems too high for T3-T5. Also does he downshift coming into T8?

I ride a 750 (a ton slower than Michael rides his 1000 I might add) and I'm in the very top of 3rd through 2, then I am in the meat of 3rd gear through turn 3. I reach the top of 3rd gear as I approach turn 4, and exit turn 4. I have, once, pulled a gear on the way up to 5, but most of the time I stay in 3rd from 2 to 5a, switching up on the exit of 5a or exit of 6, depending on what I'm trying to do.

So yes, 3rd gear from turn 2 to the exit of turn 5a / 6, is fine.

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by antarius
I ride a 750 (a ton slower than Michael rides his 1000 I might add) and I'm in the very top of 3rd through 2, then I am in the meat of 3rd gear through turn 3. I reach the top of 3rd gear as I approach turn 4, and exit turn 4. I have, once, pulled a gear on the way up to 5, but most of the time I stay in 3rd from 2 to 5a, switching up on the exit of 5a or exit of 6, depending on what I'm trying to do.

So yes, 3rd gear from turn 2 to the exit of turn 5a / 6, is fine.

Interesting. On that same 750, I would downshift twice to 4th on the approach to 1, holding that to the top of 5. Downshift once to 3rd on the approach to 5, carrying that to the exit of 6.

[R1P]

Originally posted by antarius
I ride a 750 (a ton slower than Michael rides his 1000 I might add) and I'm in the very top of 3rd through 2, then I am in the meat of 3rd gear through turn 3. I reach the top of 3rd gear as I approach turn 4, and exit turn 4. I have, once, pulled a gear on the way up to 5, but most of the time I stay in 3rd from 2 to 5a, switching up on the exit of 5a or exit of 6, depending on what I'm trying to do.

So yes, 3rd gear from turn 2 to the exit of turn 5a / 6, is fine. Come to think of it pulling 3rd through that section makes sense. I originally learned Thill 6 trackdays ago on a 02 R1 and now have three days on my 1098. Between learning the track and the bikes I lost track of my gear selections. I actually pull 4th in T2, downshift to 3rd coming into T3, and up-shift again for T6. 4th gear is a bit high for T2 and T6, but I find it easier to control the throttle and maintain momentum.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by clutchslip
Hmmm...Reminds me of what I said about trackdays in my big thread: You just never know who will show up. :laughing

I think BigOz is trying to re-enforce something that has been said before: Listen to different folks, you might pick something up. The best basketball coaches aren't always the best players.

I wish all the good riders would stop helping everyone. I am too old and scared and the only thing I have is instinct and knowledge. Now, I don't have that advantage. Boo-hooo00 :cry

Oh btw, Mr. Earnest and Mr. Solis, it's a very good description for going fast around T-hill. I can't use it, 'cause I ain't that brave. But I am sure others can utilize it. So with alot of reflection, and a little stubborness I put alot of thought into this.

Maybe it's whats already been said to me but I couldn't see it because of the way it was proposed. But I'll take heed.

thanks,

[R1P]

On the recent 8/13 PTT trackday I posted my best lap-time ever, dropping 5 seconds off my previous mark. I thanked Michael Earnest for my progress; it was due in large part to this Thunderhill Walk Through. He offered to give me a tow for the last session. He borrowed a 600RR that he had never ridden before. The first couple of laps, at a 2:05 pace, he would point down at points of interest on the track. Then we started to really get on it, passing guys right and left (literally) carving it up; he looked back coming onto the straights to check my lines and give me a thumbs-up. We did a 2:01.8, with him riding a foreign bike; he truly is a phenomenal rider and following him was one of the highlights of my day. I offer a special thanks to Michael Earnest for imparting his knowledge and for the invigorating tow. :thumbup

[norcalzx10r]

Sweet write up. Now if I could only get 185hp from my zx7r:teeth

[R1P]

Someone should sticky this thread. :nerd

[R1P]

Just a few tidbits I gleaned during my tow from M.E. that have lowered my lap-times:

T1: The start-finish line (just past the end of the hot-pit wall) is the throttle shutoff point for the front straight.

T3: There's a box painted on the entry (look for it on your warm-up lap). Pass through this box having already started turn-in and cut across the off-cambered section of the entry.

T5: Turn in early going into the cyclone; most of the turning should be done before the candy stripe on the inside. This allows for a better drive down the hill and a better entry line for T5b.

T7: Come off T6 in third, grab fourth, and short-shift fifth going into T7; turn in late (at the very end of the straight between T6 and T7). Hold the throttle wide open and apex T7 late putting you on an angular line across the track toward the concrete patch at the entry to T8. This all depends on your gearing and how low you can let your sack hang; I suggest that the full throttle bit be approached gradually with caution, but this line is smoother and flows if done correctly; the speed that can be carried though this section is amazing.

T11: Turn in early and apex late (similar to T5a); exit far to the left and late apex T12 and T13. A bit of corner speed is sacrificed in T11, but this gives a straighter line through T12 and T13, allowing a much better drive onto the T13-T14 straight.

One more general observation; Michael is a point and shoot rider. In general, he enters and exits on the inside of corners, stands the bike upright a quickly as possible, and connects them with relatively straight lines. This minimizes the time he has the bike leaned over maximizing full throttle time and braking efficiency. This works best on liter bikes.

Thanks again to Micheal Earnest for the tow and insights. :thumbup

[JakesKTM]

Awesomus thread...:thumbup I'm a noob. This helps immensely for RP's and brake/throttle markers......

Some of these turns, like T-1, I won't even have to brake much for since the bike is pegged at 120 mph down the straight. I just don't have the balls to go 115 through that turn :wow yet.......:x

[Yody]

Just a few tidbits I gleaned during my tow from M.E. that have lowered my lap-times:

T1: The start-finish line (just past the end of the hot-pit wall) is the throttle shutoff point for the front straight.

T3: There's a box painted on the entry (look for it on your warm-up lap). Pass through this box having already started turn-in and cut across the off-cambered section of the entry.

T5: Turn in early going into the cyclone; most of the turning should be done before the candy stripe on the inside. This allows for a better drive down the hill and a better entry line for T5b.

T7: Come off T6 in third, grab fourth, and short-shift fifth going into T7; turn in late (at the very end of the straight between T6 and T7). Hold the throttle wide open and apex T7 late putting you on an angular line across the track toward the concrete patch at the entry to T8. This all depends on your gearing and how low you can let your sack hang; I suggest that the full throttle bit be approached gradually with caution, but this line is smoother and flows if done correctly; the speed that can be carried though this section is amazing.

T11: Turn in early and apex late (similar to T5a); exit far to the left and late apex T12 and T13. A bit of corner speed is sacrificed in T11, but this gives a straighter line through T12 and T13, allowing a much better drive onto the T13-T14 straight.

One more general observation; Michael is a point and shoot rider. In general, he enters and exits on the inside of corners, stands the bike upright a quickly as possible, and connects them with relatively straight lines. This minimizes the time he has the bike leaned over maximizing full throttle time and braking efficiency. This works best on liter bikes.

Thanks again to Micheal Earnest for the tow and insights. :thumbup

Spend more time at max lean angle but less time leaned over.

I didn't realize that he early apexed 11, how do you early turn-in but late apex? I've seen Cory Call super super late apex T11 at the PTT school, I also really late apex that turn(avatar) but am interested in hearing more about this technique, thanks!

Oh BTW, I think I understand T5, the faster I was getting the less late of an apex I was taking, and was more like "snaking" through the turn instead of squaring it off heavily like I used too(late apex everywhere). Although this led up to holding the front brake a tad too long and you know the rest.

[R1P]

Spend more time at max lean angle but less time leaned over.

I didn't realize that he early apexed 11, how do you early turn-in but late apex? I've seen Cory Call super super late apex T11 at the PTT school, I also really late apex that turn(avatar) but am interested in hearing more about this technique, thanks!

Oh BTW, I think I understand T5, the faster I was getting the less late of an apex I was taking, and was more like "snaking" through the turn instead of squaring it off heavily like I used too(late apex everywhere). Although this led up to holding the front brake a tad too long and you know the rest.Yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it. When he talks about spinning and drifting off the corners he has come off full lean early and he's relatively upright with a relatively straight line allowing him to maintain control.

That's my mistake, I guess if you turned-in to T11 early you'd apex early. The point I was trying to get across is similar to your Cory Call observation, enter at the far right and get most of turning done (square it off) on the entry giving you a really late and relatively upright apex to the far left on exit. I think of this as turning-in early.

T5 is similar to T11. It sounds like you've been doing right by squaring it off early. I've had the same snaking tendency lately cause I've been carrying more speed; I've had a few moments there too. I've noticed that there are a couple of small bumps at the crest that can upset the front end. That's another reason to be coming off of full lean early, just before the crest.

BTW are you doing Thill on Mon?

[Yody]

Yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it. When he talks about spinning and drifting off the corners he has come off full lean early and he's relatively upright with a relatively straight line allowing him to maintain control.

That's my mistake, I guess if you turned-in to T11 early you'd apex early. The point I was trying to get across is similar to your Cory Call observation, enter at the far right and get most of turning done (square it off) on the entry giving you a really late and relatively upright apex to the far left on exit. I think of this as turning-in early.

T5 is similar to T11. It sounds like you've been doing right by squaring it off early. I've had the same snaking tendency lately cause I've been carrying more speed; I've had a few moments there too. I've noticed that there are a couple of small bumps at the crest that can upset the front end. That's another reason to be coming off of full lean early, just before the crest.

BTW are you doing Thill on Mon?

No I'm all done for this year. I hope to make a clean slate next spring and work on some things. Kinda realized that I'd like to take a little more time taking it easy rather than pushing the envelope all the time.

[Hooli]

No I'm all done for this year. I hope to make a clean slate next spring and work on some things. Kinda realized that I'd like to take a little more time taking it easy rather than pushing the envelope all the time.

+100

[afm199]

As always, these lines work better for bikes with big HP, you won't see 400 racers taking super wide line on some of these corners, or 250 proddy racers. Also start finish shutoff marker depends on the speed of your bike.

[Yody]

As always, these lines work better for bikes with big HP, you won't see 400 racers taking super wide line on some of these corners, or 250 proddy racers. Also start finish shutoff marker depends on the speed of your bike.


Totally true, however on my F4I which are known to put out about 90hp I use these lines with good results. I did the PTT school and found out that I was using really similar lines(not claiming that I have them perfected or anything) what it did for me was help me consciously take advantage of these lines. I was doing them but not realizing how what or why. I learned that to take advantage of late apexing you have to be getting on the gas early and hard, otherwise all you are doing is swooping around. They seem to work for my underpowered bike just fine. I do realize you were mentioning 250/400's which of course are less powerfull than my bike so I see what you are saying. I used to think turning in early was a sin, but after watching various 250 riders (and videos) I realized how turning in early can still work, its not bad, just different, gotta keep the momentum going.

Also I totally agree with you on reference points on throttle roll-off. On my bike if I really am trying to jam, I have to hold the throttle PAST the start/finish line before T1, and after the bridge before T14, of course if you tried that on a G1K you would probably fly your ass right off the track :laughing.

[afm199]

Vody ( :laughing) There are a lot of bikes out there with 45-75 hp that don't need those lines cause they don't go fast enough. (As Jason Pridmore put it, if the track was 300 yards wide, would you go all the way to the outside to make a turn? OF course not.

I am not saying Michael does not know what he is doing, the opposite. He has helped me out. I am just pointing out that wide lines are not for every bike or person.

[Yody]

:laughing

I agree, waiting to turn in late can kill some momentum, and lowered power bikes probably can't take advantage of a late line, from what I have seen they need the momentum and corner speed to get a good drive off of the turn, rather than horsepower. Arcing through the turn rather than straightening it out helps them keep up momentum and take advantage of whatever power they have........sound about right?

[Holeshot]

Just a few tidbits I gleaned during my tow from M.E. that have lowered my lap-times:

T1: The start-finish line (just past the end of the hot-pit wall) is the throttle shutoff point for the front straight.

Or further, depending on bike speed/ skill.


T5: Turn in early going into the cyclone; most of the turning should be done before the candy stripe on the inside. This allows for a better drive down the hill and a better entry line for T5b.

No early apex in T5. Get ALL braking done before turning. No trail braking.




T11: Turn in early and apex late (similar to T5a); exit far to the left and late apex T12 and T13. A bit of corner speed is sacrificed in T11, but this gives a straighter line through T12 and T13, allowing a much better drive onto the T13-T14 straight.

No early turn in/ apex in T11. Get all braking done before turn in. No trail braking.

[afm199]

:laughing

I agree, waiting to turn in late can kill some momentum, and lowered power bikes probably can't take advantage of a late line, from what I have seen they need the momentum and corner speed to get a good drive off of the turn, rather than horsepower. Arcing through the turn rather than straightening it out helps them keep up momentum and take advantage of whatever power they have........sound about right?



On a fast lap (SV) I won't touch the brakes in T1 at Thill unless there is a tailwind. Just downshift twice and turn in. So there is somewhat more of an arc, though it still is really important to pick the bike up and get on the gas as early as possible.

[Yody]

Or further, depending on bike speed/ skill.



No early apex in T5. Get ALL braking done before turning. No trail braking.





No early turn in/ apex in T11. Get all braking done before turn in. No trail braking.

I understand the part about not using the brake in T5, because I just learned this the hardway last trackday...whoops, but from what I've felt that is because the pavement drops off, like T3 however how does this apply in T11? I feel T11 is one of my stronger points on that track, my natural style of going wide, deep, late, and steering fast, apexing late has helped me greatly in 11 to setup for 12/13, but to be honest I "lightly" trail into 11, I mean pretty damn light but there is still a drag on the front to make sure I can reach my apex(end of candy cane) since I turn in so late sometimes I need the front brake to drag my bike onto its line and reach my intended apex. I'm interested to know why I shouldn't use the front brake at all because I'd like to not crash there. Thanks!

[norcal]

Here is Mike's fast lap at T-Hill on his '03 R6. Something to read what his lines are like on a smaller hp bike than the big bike he rides now.

Enjoy it, use it, live it and go fast with it.

http://www.unofficial-afm.com/t-hill.html

[Chris510]

I understand the part about not using the brake in T5, because I just learned this the hardway last trackday...whoops, but from what I've felt that is because the pavement drops off, like T3 however how does this apply in T11? I feel T11 is one of my stronger points on that track, my natural style of going wide, deep, late, and steering fast, apexing late has helped me greatly in 11 to setup for 12/13, but to be honest I "lightly" trail into 11, I mean pretty damn light but there is still a drag on the front to make sure I can reach my apex(end of candy cane) since I turn in so late sometimes I need the front brake to drag my bike onto its line and reach my intended apex. I'm interested to know why I shouldn't use the front brake at all because I'd like to not crash there. Thanks!

How many times this year did you drop it in 11?:laughing Thats the point he is making.

[ILOAD2]

150mph from 9 to 10?

I'm not buying it...

Does M.E have on board telemetry that can be posted?. It would be great to see His throttle/gear/speed in real time.

[norcal]

You want real time...just ask Mike to take you for a ride around the track.

He is WFO or Full on the Brakes...

Ask Ryan...he got to see it close up.

[norcal]

Ryan checking the lines Mike takes

[R1P]

Ok guys, I wasn't trying to describe Mike's ideal line and braking point for every rider and bike on the planet. I was just passing on some tidbits that he showed me and observations of his riding when he gave me a tow. I chose the corners I did because they are areas I have seen improvement due to Mike's input and because I've noticed that other riders might benefit from M. E.'s knowledge in these areas of the track.

As far as T5 and T11, the point I was trying to make, apparently without success, is that it's best to late apex them (I may not have worded my descriptions correctly, which I pointed out to Yody). How you do it I'll leave up to you. BTW Holeshot, I never mentioned trail braking, but since you did, I've had no problems trail braking either corner. I believe trail braking any particular corner is a matter of personal preference, skill, and riding style (just like backing it in).

[Yody]

How many times this year did you drop it in 11?:laughing Thats the point he is making.
I haven't "dropped" it once there, I have tucked the front due to riding in too close quarters with another rider. He took the early turn in and killed his corner speed. I went wide and went for the late apex. I ended up tapping his back tire and down went the front. All my fault, but it wasn't due to trailbraking.

[34robert]

Doesn't M.E. have a section in the Thunderhill paper about his lines?

[Holeshot]

Yody, I don't trail into T11 because the corner has considerable postive camber, loading the front up all on it's own...I don't want to overload the front while steering. Also, while trail braking is essential in some turns, it doesn't allow the front to actually steer and roll through the corner. Getting off the brakes in certain turns has made me considerably quicker this year alone. T11 would be one of those corners.

R1P, everyone has their own style, but as I said above, there's a time and a place for trail braking. Getting off the lever has helped me lose a whole second if not more, this season. Feel free to trail brake both T5 and T11, but as you get quicker, it's going to catch up with you. There's only so much load we can put on a front tire from steering to braking. I prefer to use up my CF with steering in those turns...considering I HAVE to get the bike steered at some point. Braking while steering quickly seem to have a habbit for sending me to the ground...

[Yody]

Yody, I don't trail into T11 because the corner has considerable postive camber, loading the front up all on it's own...I don't want to overload the front while steering. Also, while trail braking is essential in some turns, it doesn't allow the front to actually steer and roll through the corner. Getting off the brakes in certain turns has made me considerably quicker this year alone. T11 would be one of those corners.

R1P, everyone has their own style, but as I said above, there's a time and a place for trail braking. Getting off the lever has helped me lose a whole second if not more, this season. Feel free to trail brake both T5 and T11, but as you get quicker, it's going to catch up with you. There's only so much load we can put on a front tire from steering to braking. I prefer to use up my CF with steering in those turns...considering I HAVE to get the bike steered at some point. Braking while steering quickly seem to have a habbit for sending me to the ground...

Just a huge guess, but I'll assume your corner speed through this turn is very slow compared to your drive though 12/13?

[alphaq]

Continue to upshift as you accelerate up the high-speed front straight heading for the Start/Finish line. Rip off a 150 mph victory wheelie as you wave to your fans.

BRING IT ON !!!!!

Michael Earnest AFM #26 / AMA #70
2007 GSXR-1000 185 HP
Best Lap Time 1:49.9
www.PacificTrackTime.com



hey Mike! you think if I apply this to my 250 I'll be rippin' 1:49's? :p

[ILOAD2]

Yody, I don't trail into T11 because the corner has considerable postive camber, loading the front up all on it's own...I don't want to overload the front while steering. Also, while trail braking is essential in some turns, it doesn't allow the front to actually steer and roll through the corner. Getting off the brakes in certain turns has made me considerably quicker this year alone. T11 would be one of those corners.

R1P, everyone has their own style, but as I said above, there's a time and a place for trail braking. Getting off the lever has helped me lose a whole second if not more, this season. Feel free to trail brake both T5 and T11, but as you get quicker, it's going to catch up with you. There's only so much load we can put on a front tire from steering to braking. I prefer to use up my CF with steering in those turns...considering I HAVE to get the bike steered at some point. Braking while steering quickly seem to have a habbit for sending me to the ground...

As for T14?..

Off throttle under bridge right? Brakes- down ONE (1) gear on the liter bike.

Now-
Do you personally turn in at brake marker 1 -shooting for the first part of the curb,but end up catching the last 1/3 of it ?

OR

do you hold your turn in just a little late and turn in over the left hand corner of that square black patch?

Trail braking up through to a little after tip in?

Signed,

Inquiring Lager in Santa Cruz.

[R1P]

As for T14?..

Throttle off at bridge downshift twice to second (on my 1098); this depends on your drive out of T13, I'm doing 135-140 at the bridge. I don't use the black patch as a marker but the late entry and apex part sounds right. As far as trail braking, I only do it if needed; there have been times when I haven't got I hauled down and had to trail brake real deep. Drive off T14, short shift on the straight and square off the entry of T 15 for a late apex and superior drive onto the front straight. :nerd

[Holeshot]

Yuri,

on my 600 I'm braking just after the bridge, and downshifting twice at that point. It'd be the same on the liter bike. I aim to get a good drive off of T15 and have learned a neat little trick this season to do so better. If you rush the center part, or the entry of that corner, the bike tends to push out and and you're not able to get back to the throttle soon enough. I'm hard on the throttle almost right at the end of the pit road entrance and the bike is done steering for a run down the straight away.

I've found that not worrying about the tight apex to the entrance to T14 has helped me to get off T15 better. I found something in T7 at Sears due to this as well....it's helped me lose some decent time. I don't aim for a massive drive off of T14, and rather focus on getting the bike turned, sacrificing straightaway speed here for an earlier drive. It's helped a lot. I got into the high 54's the last time there, and I'm wagering this is part of the reason.

YMMV.

[Yody]

Yuri,

on my 600 I'm braking just after the bridge, and downshifting twice at that point. It'd be the same on the liter bike. I aim to get a good drive off of T15 and have learned a neat little trick this season to do so better. If you rush the center part, or the entry of that corner, the bike tends to push out and and you're not able to get back to the throttle soon enough. I'm hard on the throttle almost right at the end of the pit road entrance and the bike is done steering for a run down the straight away.

I've found that not worrying about the tight apex to the entrance to T14 has helped me to get off T15 better. I found something in T7 at Sears due to this as well....it's helped me lose some decent time. I don't aim for a massive drive off of T14, and rather focus on getting the bike turned, sacrificing straightaway speed here for an earlier drive. It's helped a lot. I got into the high 54's the last time there, and I'm wagering this is part of the reason.

YMMV.

(trying to understand what you are saying)

So when you say don't worry about a tight apex, you mean you don't worry about coming to the candy cane on 14? That not going wide out of 14 is the most important part because it makes it hard to setup for 15 becuase the bikes trying to push wide. And as well you kill corner speed on the entry (meaning going a little slower down the straight) to make sure that you get setup for 15 which setups you up for a great drive down the straight. Correct?

[DaveToo]

This is just so far above my riding level as to be about 80% useless. Entertaining, awe-inspiring, but just hard to fathom. :)

[R1P]

bump for MS and ME

[Jello_Biafra]

I'm gonna start reading this every night until the 24th, as well as printing a track map and writing in notes and gear selections. I'm gonna do 1:50's right out of the box dammit. :p

[R1P]

Settle down there cowboy. :teeth

[Toe]

this thread is awesome...should help me shave off a few seconds :cool

[Var]

I tried to apply these techniques on the track but it's hard to carry my laptop and ride at the same time.

[Yody]

this thread is awesome...should help me shave off a few seconds :cool

As Michael Ernest says, best way to shave seconds at Thill is to go really fast down the straights

[Holeshot]

....and use a Mach3 on your nutz and shaft.

[Toe]

As Michael Ernest says, best way to shave seconds at Thill is to go really fast down the straights

DONE! well...im working on it :laughing

....and use a Mach3 on your nutz and shaft.

:hand...my nuts are like eggshells

Im looking to get sub 2:10's this year, ill do whatever it takes :|

[Holeshot]

It takes going to a Zoom Zoom day and following me around Thomas!

[Toe]

It takes going to a Zoom Zoom day and following me around Thomas!

:laughing
If I can keep up :thumbup

[Holeshot]

You'll be fine!

[Yody]

Im looking to get sub 2:10's this year, ill do whatever it takes :|

I've seen you ride, 2:10's shouldn't be a problem for you.

Tell me something though; will you have more fun running under 2:10's?

What if I told you that you could run 2:05's by the end of the year but you'd crash twice getting there, would that be included in "whatever it takes"?

[HOTRODHAIRY]

I've seen you ride, 2:10's shouldn't be a problem for you.

Tell me something though; will you have more fun running under 2:10's?

What if I told you that you could run 2:05's by the end of the year but you'd crash twice getting there, would that be included in "whatever it takes"?

That would be two track tests of the Tilt suit at least:laughing.The question is do you want to run 2:10's comfortably or on your abilities edge?I like running around 2:10-12 and having fun.I'm not racing and I like feeling in control of my bike.If I get down to 2:05's that would be great.But if not,I don't really care.Trackdays are for fun.I can't wait to hit T-hill in August with new pavement.Two days in a row:Party.

[Toe]

I've seen you ride, 2:10's shouldn't be a problem for you.

Tell me something though; will you have more fun running under 2:10's?

What if I told you that you could run 2:05's by the end of the year but you'd crash twice getting there, would that be included in "whatever it takes"?

I dont believe that you need to crash to learn, that makes no sense...But would I have more fun? well, its not so much about the fun factor between 2:10's and 2:15's, its the feeling of accomplishment and gratification of reaching my goals.

my "whatever it takes" mentality is more of mental game I play with myself, forcing myself to try new lines and whatnot.

That would be two track tests of the Tilt suit at least:laughing.The question is do you want to run 2:10's comfortably or on your abilities edge?I like running around 2:10-12 and having fun.I'm not racing and I like feeling in control of my bike.If I get down to 2:05's that would be great.But if not,I don't really care.Trackdays are for fun.I can't wait to hit T-hill in August with new pavement.Two days in a row:Party.

when I did my best of a 2:13, I didnt once feel out of control or sketchy and I could tell where I could go faster and brake later. I want to progress as much as possible while still having fun. Im not expecting to drop 2 or 3 seconds every trackday...it just wont happen, but I want to know that each time I go out there, Im getting smoother and faster, otherwise, whats the point.

[Yody]

Thats why I said you will be able to run 2:10's consistently, because I believe you possess the skills.

That in itself was not my point. My point was making your only goal a "lap time" and doing "whatever it takes" to achieve that goal. This is only my opinion and I'm not necessarily saying its the only way, however I believe that you need to keep trackdays about fun. I don't want to preach(although you know I could :teeth) but the only people I know who "need" to lower their laptimes are people racing AFM or some other organization. Getting faster and faster is of course ultimately one of the goals. But ask yourself this question. If there was some magical curse on you that said you would never get faster than 2:10 would you still do trackdays? Or would you just say screw it? I know questioning like that could be debatable and I'm probably putting too much on it and being all anal etc but would you still ride if you had to accept the fact that you weren't going to get any faster? What other things would you find enjoyable about being on the track? I ask you these things because at one point you'll likely either stop getting faster and plateau, or crash trying to get faster. OR take your time, enjoy just riding on the track and get faster gradually as it comes. Are you trying to be a overnight wonder or do you plan on doing track riding for the next 10 years? If its the latter then I suggest you might come up with some kind of "long term goal" which does not involve a laptime. It won't always be this exciting dropping 3-5 seconds each few days out.

It just scares me as somebody who has gone down that road to see someone else about to cast off on that adventure. Just because I did things a certain way obviously doesn't mean you will. But I think its a common pattern and is easily recognizable. If anything just take the chance to reflect on what I'm saying. If its not for you that's okay but first give yourself the chance to maybe understand where I'm coming from. Its not meant to be an attack of any kind. Just some insight :thumbup

If anything you should take Holeshot up on his offer. The one thing you do have going for you is your network of friends. You have some really good riders that are willing to help you. You're in good hands

[Ratters]

Aw, come on Cody, what could go wrong just focusing on trying to get faster?









:teeth

[Toe]

Thats why I said you will be able to run 2:10's consistently, because I believe you possess the skills.

That in itself was not my point. My point was making your only goal a "lap time" and doing "whatever it takes" to achieve that goal. This is only my opinion and I'm not necessarily saying its the only way, however I believe that you need to keep trackdays about fun. I don't want to preach(although you know I could :teeth) but the only people I know who "need" to lower their laptimes are people racing AFM or some other organization. Getting faster and faster is of course ultimately one of the goals. But ask yourself this question. If there was some magical curse on you that said you would never get faster than 2:10 would you still do trackdays? Or would you just say screw it? I know questioning like that could be debatable and I'm probably putting too much on it and being all anal etc but would you still ride if you had to accept the fact that you weren't going to get any faster? What other things would you find enjoyable about being on the track? I ask you these things because at one point you'll likely either stop getting faster and plateau, or crash trying to get faster. OR take your time, enjoy just riding on the track and get faster gradually as it comes. Are you trying to be a overnight wonder or do you plan on doing track riding for the next 10 years? If its the latter then I suggest you might come up with some kind of "long term goal" which does not involve a laptime. It won't always be this exciting dropping 3-5 seconds each few days out.

It just scares me as somebody who has gone down that road to see someone else about to cast off on that adventure. Just because I did things a certain way obviously doesn't mean you will. But I think its a common pattern and is easily recognizable. If anything just take the chance to reflect on what I'm saying. If its not for you that's okay but first give yourself the chance to maybe understand where I'm coming from. Its not meant to be an attack of any kind. Just some insight :thumbup

If anything you should take Holeshot up on his offer. The one thing you do have going for you is your network of friends. You have some really good riders that are willing to help you. You're in good hands


Cody I totally understand what you mean.
track days for me aren't just about lap times, its not my only focus, yet I use it at a tool for improvement, lets me know my brake markers, body positioning, and lines can all be improved.

I plan on riding track as long as I can, one day id like to sign up for NRS and get my feet wet in the AFM. I know its a long road ahead and im bound to face thousands of bumps in the road, but I must keep myself motivated.

I wont say I wont ever do this or that, because who knows, but im not going to limit myself by saying "I can't do it"

This adventure will be a long one :thumbup

[Yody]

By how many trackdays you're doing now, I don't see why you wouldn't be ready to sign up for the NRS by the end of the summer :thumbup and you know who you're going to go through to do it right :teeth

[Toe]

By how many trackdays you're doing now, I don't see why you wouldn't be ready to sign up for the NRS by the end of the summer :thumbup and you know who you're going to go through to do it right :teeth

Zoom Zoom :teeth :banana

[Seesm]

I think Michaels crew does GREAT job and have personally helped me from my 2nd day EVER on a street bike to know... I want to try a few of these I have not tried yet (Michaels ideas)

[Evol-E]

Great write-up. Next weekend will be my first time out there so this really helps. I will be on the same bike but with much slower results.

[Paytheon]

I was there on the 26th of May. I wish I had read this thread prior to going. THill is a blast!!!

[Daredevil]

Great write-up. Next weekend will be my first time out there so this really helps. I will be on the same bike but with much slower results.


dude!

you said you couldn't make the 12th? oh wait, work huh

too bad, im there tues wed and thurs. wish i could make it out there with you :)