Do you LEOs get paid to get in and out of uniform?

[masameet]

Apparently the San Leandro LEOs want to. And now have a federal judge saying, You get some.

San Francisco Chronicle
Judge gives San Leandro cops paid time to don, doff uniforms

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

A police uniform is not just a set of clothes, but an emblem of authority that conveys "special powers and deference in our society" - and that means the officer should be paid for the time needed to put it on and take it off, says a federal judge in San Francisco.

U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled in favor of police in San Leandro who sued for about a half-hour per day of paid "donning and doffing" time - either as part of their shifts or as premium pay.

The ruling "ensures that officers get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work," said Alison Berry Wilkinson, a lawyer for the officers.

But Kathy Mount, San Leandro's lawyer, said Patel left room for the city to argue that the process takes so little time that it shouldn't be compensated. Mount said the city would try to persuade the judge that putting on and taking off uniforms and mandatory protective gear takes only 10 minutes. San Leandro officers have estimated that they need 25 to 35 minutes a day.

Patel's ruling also conflicts with an earlier decision by another judge in the same courthouse. U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer ruled in August that police in Richmond did not have to be paid for time spent putting on and removing their uniforms, but might be entitled to compensation for time needed to attach safety equipment such as guns, holsters, handcuffs and helmets. He said police must be paid if they have to put on that equipment at the station.

Putting on and taking off a uniform is not "integral and indispensable" to police work, the standard established by the Supreme Court in compensation cases, Breyer said.

Source: SF Chronicle story (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/article?f=/c/a/2007/12/11/BAK4TRNU1.DTL).

[motorman4life]

This donning and doffing debate has gone on for years.

Here is the rub. If you had a job from 8 to 5, but your employer expected you to arrive early and have certain equipement signed out and checked, ready for service, before you showed up for a briefing.. that starts at 8 sharp. Say they also had a quartermaster or clerk or armorer (or all 3) show up on an adjusted shift that started 30 minutes before yours, so they could sign out the equipment to you. Then you had to sign for, inspect and secure the equipment as well as put on your uniform (which some agencies prevent you from wearing while off-duty) before you are actually on the clock.

I know it may seem petty, but it would not be an issue if their briefing was at 8:20. But, being told you are "late" for work when you roll in at 7:50.. well, that is where the conflict came from.

If I am expected to be at work 15 minutes early and have to wait in line to sign-in equipment 15 minutes after work. And, if my agency says I can be disciplined for wearing my uniform home, forcing me to get out of my uniform before I can leave, I'd like to be "on the clock" during the time I am essentially being forced to be at work before and after my shift briefings. I'm not talking about any time I CHOOSE to hang out in the locker room. Just the time I am being forced to be at work as a part of the job.

Those 30 minutes a day add up. On a 4-10 schedule, that is 2 hours a week.. about 100 hours a year.. or about 2 years of worktime added to a 30-year career.

[Traq]

I thought it was standard procedure for that time to be paid. It only makes sense, especially given the circumstances MM4L described above. They shouldn't be expected to be signing in and out equipment off the clock, and if the agency restricts wearing the uniform while off duty they shouldn't be required to change off the clock.

[NorCalBusa]

Wow, what agencies require no uniform off duty? That seems a weird rule, must be some history (ain't there always?). Does that mean a complete change of clothes (no windbreaker covering up)?

[RolnCode3]

I love it. "It takes so little time it shouldn't be compensated". She estimated it at 10 minutes.

If I left 10 minutes early every day, I can guarantee they'd care. Or if she had to sit at her desk for 10 minutes at the end of her shift, she'd care too.

We don't get paid for don/doff either.

[NorCalBusa]

And if she doesn't don/doff correctly- her boob shows (yawn). Don't get your vest on right (or some other emergency gear like, I dunno, maybe your GUN) and the consequences are dire.

[mnb]

Depending on the boob that's showing it might be much better than a yawn. Could be a downright :wow

[silverbelt]

Seems petty :2cents

Then again, I am not in a union.

[RolnCode3]

Seems petty :2cents

Then again, I am not in a union.
Union doesn't have anything to do with it, IMO.

Are you required to arrive early at your job? Are you compensated for it? Should you be?

Either pay for their time, or make the donning of equipment part of their current schedule (first 15 minutes of the day are for donning/retrieving equipment, followed by shift briefing).

That's the whole issue.

[motorman4life]

Seems petty :2cents

Then again, I am not in a union.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, in a 30 year career, it is equal to working 2 full years of overtime hours above your regualar 80 hour work week (1/2 hour a day x 4 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 30 years x 1.5 rate for OT). At an average pay rate of $40/hr., that's about $180,000 worth of pay. So, it's not 2 cents.

It might not be a big deal to you, but I have gotten reamed for being "late" when I was actually 10 minutes early for my shift. How would you like to be put on probation and risk losing your job for only being 10 minutes early to work everyday? If you are expected to be there to do work for your agency, even if it is prep work, it is duty time.

In some departments, you're on the clock for 20 minutes before briefing starts (or you get geared up after briefing) and in those agencies, you can fuel and turn in your equipement before debriefing. Those agencies don't have a donning and doffing issue. It is the places where officers are expected to be at work and doing business before their shift starts and after their shift ends.

[silverbelt]

Union doesn't have anything to do with it, IMO.

Are you required to arrive early at your job? Are you compensated for it? Should you be?

Either pay for their time, or make the donning of equipment part of their current schedule (first 15 minutes of the day are for donning/retrieving equipment, followed by shift briefing).

That's the whole issue.

With all due respect, in the non-union jobs, at least the ones that I've had, I sometimes have to work earlier than usual, or stay later than usual, be oncall, and/or attend m,eetings that fall outside my normal working hours that I am expected to be in the office. Granted, I do have some libertys with regard to flex time or comp days, but it does not fully compensate for the off hours I spend doing work related stuff.

Should that be compensated or not? I wish it was. But thats just the way things are.

Should officers be compensated for the time prior to their shift to get dressed in unifiorm and ready to go at the time shift starts? I don't necessarily think it should be. But thats my opinion on the matter.

It also appears that the courts have left the door open to some interpretation as well.

[silverbelt]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, in a 30 year career, it is equal to working 2 full years of overtime hours above your regualar 80 hour work week (1/2 hour a day x 4 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 30 years x 1.5 rate for OT). At an average pay rate of $40/hr., that's about $180,000 worth of pay. So, it's not 2 cents.

It might not be a big deal to you, but I have gotten reamed for being "late" when I was actually 10 minutes early for my shift. How would you like to be put on probation and risk losing your job for only being 10 minutes early to work everyday? If you are expected to be there to do work for your agency, even if it is prep work, it is duty time.

In some departments, you're on the clock for 20 minutes before briefing starts (or you get geared up after briefing) and in those agancies, you can fuel and turn in your equipement before debriefing. Those agencies don't have a donning and doffing issue. It is the places where officers are expected to be at work and doing business before their shift starts and after their shift ends.

All good points MM4L and Roln. Fundamentally, I don't disagree. From my perview, I just don't see it as big an issue.

I'll concede that I don't work in Law Enforcement and don't have to work within the guidelines you've mentioned.

[NorCalBusa]

Frankly, its' the perfect scenario (in the private sector) for some dweeb dishwasher to get $180k in back pay from a chain restaurant. The Labor Board wouldn't tolerate such a scheme and lay some serious hate on the employer for trying to get away with it. Trust me on this- I had waitresses working for me that refused to take a break during busy times (when the tips are rolling), then all it took was one to figure out she won the freaking lottery by later asking for all those un-taken breaks as a penalty for us as the employer.

In collective bargaining it should be a simple matter of defining the terms/expectation in the contract.

[Stormdragon]

If one gets away from the whole donning/doffing thing and just looks at the idea of 'on the clock once at the place of business', I think most people would agree that the donning/doffing was something that should be paid. Just as showing up at some place of work that requires a clean room outfit, would pay the worker for donning/doffing the clean room outfit.

However, on the other side, I've never successfully gotten that '15 minute break for every 4 hours worked' that's supposedly guaranteed by law, so as far as I'm concerned, you guys are on your own. Good luck. :twofinger

[T-1 Thunder]

If you work at IBM, you have to put a tie on before you go to work.
If you work at the corndog shop, you gotta have that little hat on first.
Even strippers have to put on pasteys and paint their nasty faces before going to work.

I think cops should be able to show up at 7:59AM, dressing in uniform without the vest, gun, or other equipment on. They can put that crap on during "company" time.

Just show up clean with your trousers nice and your shirt tucked in. Done.

[RolnCode3]

I think cops should be able to show up at 7:59AM, dressing in uniform without the vest, gun, or other equipment on. They can put that crap on during "company" time.
That was 1 of my 2 options.

But supervisors want you to be able to walk out the door at the drop of a hat if someone's calling for Code3 cover, shots are being fired, or whatever scenario you can think of.

[racercosmo]

When I started my job, we were paid yearly salary. The company was purchased, and the new owners didn't like paying us for the times we went home early, or weren't there. Now we're hourly, and getting overtime, and I average $6,000 over my yearly rate.
I guess they didn't realize that some of us are here 30 minutes before the official start of work, and some are here after we close. And the long weekends that happen a lot.
I get paid the minute I walk through the door at work, and I get paid until I walk out.

[nakedape]

Jesus Joseph and Mary! I'm allowed one hour of preparation time for 150 students. Salary be damned, suit up and stand at attention coppers. If you claim to accept so much responsibility and have such a dangerous job (tell it to farmers and all industrial workers) then your salary compensation should be enough. Teachers have far more accountability/set up/take down than the average cop; it's not even funny. Lower pay too, and we're teaching YOUR kids. I'm sorry you're priced out of your service area, but FD and PD run on shifts and allow the officers to live outside their service area, unlike other public servants who are required by law to be and stay there in the event of an emergency until it ends or lose their license.

Unarmed teachers are required to stay with the students until "all clear", and have ample supplies (water and power bars) to feed them, but not defend them. Recently, PD articles claimed cops were going to get $5K yearly to "dress". BS. Just get there 15 early and slap on the clothes. You should check your weapon on your own time, as it is a personal defense and duty weapon..

Jeez, these issues were non-issues just ten years ago...NApe

[RolnCode3]

Boooo. Hiss.

:Party

[nakedape]

What do you mean by "boo-hiss"? Clarify...NApe

[monstermonster]

Jesus Joseph and Mary! I'm allowed one hour of preparation time for 150 students. Salary be damned, suit up and stand at attention coppers. If you claim to accept so much responsibility and have such a dangerous job (tell it to farmers and all industrial workers) then your salary compensation should be enough. Teachers have far more accountability/set up/take down than the average cop; it's not even funny. Lower pay too, and we're teaching YOUR kids. I'm sorry you're priced out of your service area, but FD and PD run on shifts and allow the officers to live outside their service area, unlike other public servants who are required by law to be and stay there in the event of an emergency until it ends or lose their license.

Unarmed teachers are required to stay with the students until "all clear", and have ample supplies (water and power bars) to feed them, but not defend them. Recently, PD articles claimed cops were going to get $5K yearly to "dress". BS. Just get there 15 early and slap on the clothes. You should check your weapon on your own time, as it is a personal defense and duty weapon..

Jeez, these issues were non-issues just ten years ago...NApe

The rational response is that teachers and LEOs should be properly compensated, not that LEOs should suck it up because you have to. When I was teaching school, I never once said that another public servant shouldn't get what they deserve just because my job was hellaciously difficult.

This issue is a no-brainer for me. You have to wear your uniform? It takes time to put it on (more than just a minute or two)? It's integral to your job? Then you get paid for it. It's not a law enforcement issue. It's a "paying people for the work they do" issue. And to say, "you took the job knowing that you'd be making sacrifices" doesn't allow you to take advantage of someone's sacrifice and then refuse to pay then for time they are REQUIRED to put in.

[Traq]

Jesus Joseph and Mary! I'm allowed one hour of preparation time for 150 students. Salary be damned, suit up and stand at attention coppers. If you claim to accept so much responsibility and have such a dangerous job (tell it to farmers and all industrial workers) then your salary compensation should be enough. Teachers have far more accountability/set up/take down than the average cop; it's not even funny. Lower pay too, and we're teaching YOUR kids. I'm sorry you're priced out of your service area, but FD and PD run on shifts and allow the officers to live outside their service area, unlike other public servants who are required by law to be and stay there in the event of an emergency until it ends or lose their license.

Unarmed teachers are required to stay with the students until "all clear", and have ample supplies (water and power bars) to feed them, but not defend them. Recently, PD articles claimed cops were going to get $5K yearly to "dress". BS. Just get there 15 early and slap on the clothes. You should check your weapon on your own time, as it is a personal defense and duty weapon..

Jeez, these issues were non-issues just ten years ago...NApe

:rolleyes

Teachers bitching about their salaries falls on deaf ears. You work 9 months out of the year.

I also like how you say you have an hour of prep time, which I assume is per day, and then are busting the balls of cops for wanting 30 minutes of paid time to prep for their job. :laughing

Of course teachers also have free periods throughout the day as well. Whoops, don't mention that! :shhh

[RolnCode3]

Boooo. Hiss.

:Party
I was joking around. Because you think the officers shouldn't be paid for their time. That's all.

[}Dragon{]

How about how many LEOs don't get a full meal period and the required two 15 minute breaks for an 8hr shift?

[Razel]

But, don't they get to eat doughnuts anytime they want?

[}Dragon{]

But, don't they get to eat doughnuts anytime they want?

Only when the lights and siren are on... It's an OSHA thing.:cool

[motorman4life]

I'm allowed one hour of preparation time for 150 students. Salary be damned, suit up and stand at attention coppers. If you claim to accept so much responsibility and have such a dangerous job... Teachers have far more accountability/set up/take down than the average cop; it's not even funny. Lower pay too, and we're teaching YOUR kids.

Unarmed teachers are required to stay with the students until "all clear", and have ample supplies (water and power bars) to feed them, but not defend them.
You are not unarmed by MY choice. What you earn is sad. Does that mean I should not get paid for my work?

How would you feel if you were expected to attend a meeting at the start of your work day in leiu of that 1 hour prep time and additionally, you were expected to be prepared ahead of the meeting and told you had to respond directly from the meeting to your classroom for the start of class? Essentially, you would have NO paid prep time. You (like me) would be expected to prepare prior to the meeting. What if then, you were expected to show up at the meeting with a published daily lesson plan and teaching equipment that had to be issued daily.. in 2 or 3 different locations on campus? Would that be okay?

Besides, according to others here.. if you're in a union, you can't bitch. Negotiate what you want and live with it. :laughing

I understand why teachers are opposed to standardized testing.. no one likes having their work being assessed objectively. I'd imagine if your work product was tested and judged in court on a daily basis or if you were issued a high-performance vehicle, 3 firearms and 4 less-lethal weapons to be responsible for all day.. then you might have a valid claim that you have "far more accountability."

[silverbelt]

Besides, according to others here.. if you're in a union, you can't bitch. Negotiate what you want and live with it. :laughing


:nerd Thats not what I said :laughing

Pros and cons to union vs non-union

[Var]

teachers vs officers don't make sense . apples to pineapples if you ask me.


leo's are paid on an HOURLY basis, therefore just like any other job that's paid on an HOURLY basis, they should be on the clock as soon as you show up until you leave.

our drummer is a high school teacher and he truly gets the short end of the stick. teachers have no free time. he works his ass of cause he cares and makes him a better teacher and makes his students' education more valuable and enjoyable. he gets paid salary depending on how many classes he teaches, some of which might outsource him from his high school to a community college. he can choose to put in minimal time at the end of the day but instead he usually busts ass and stays at school 12-16 hours most days.

2 different pay structures.

a different example. I used to work at a major restaurant chain and our managers were there for so many hours, their pay ended up being 10 bucks an hour(salary)

we waiters made more - about 16 an hour with tips.

[antarius]

People say it doesn't matter, it's only a couple of minutes, but think about it like this...

I normally start my shift at 6pm, in briefing, suited up and ready to work. I can't get there at 6pm and then get suited up and be in briefing at 6:15. That means I have to be at work in the course of my duties no later than 5:45.

Now let's say I have traffic court at 6pm. Now I have to be in uniform and at court by 6pm, which is an extra 30 minute ordeal. That means I need to be at work, in the course of my duties (dawning/doffing/traveling in a patrol car) no later than 5:15. Guess what? No overtime there, as I technically didn't "start my shift" until 6pm (when court started) which is no different than regular. However, I had to get into uniform and a patrol car nearly an hour prior. Why should I not be compensated for that?

I'm not saying we're not paid well and/or don't have great benefits. We do. I'm also not saying I should be paid for something I'm not doing. My concern is what's fair. I should be paid for work I do while I am, well, at work; And due to the fact that I cannot go to work without putting on my vest, gun belt, radio, checking my weapons, vehicle and being in sound condition in case my Captain or Sergeant decides to look me over, means I should be compensated.

To the teacher who said you have more responsibilities or whatever it was? You're way off base and frankly, as stated above, comparing apples to oranges. I do have one question for you though. Does your job require you to wear a bullet proof (er... resistant) vest and carry a gun? I'd say that's one hell of a lot of responsibility.... maybe you think otherwise?

[sychotic]

So, I guess all of us out there that have to wake up eary to SHIT SHOWER SHAVE AND DRIVE TO WORK should get paid for that too. There are many jobs you can roll out of bed 5 min before you start work show up and do your job and it doesn't matter. For this kind of job you wont be paid shit for. Then you have jobs with "more responsibility" and tasks you know you are going to have to do when you sign up for the job. DAMN, LEO's are making nearly 100k per year. All I know is I have no problem taking an extra 30 min to prepare my days attire to look and be the professional I am to make 60k per year.

[NorCalBusa]

My take is the uniform don/doff should be on one's own time- as its reasonable to ask employees to arrive for work "in uniform" and ready to start work (think McDonalds, Starbucks). Where it crosses the line is when the employer says uniforms can't be worn to/from- that's absolutely their call, but they then need to pay for the time to change clothes. Inspecting the car, requisite cussing the guy who didn't gas/clean it before you, briefing, checking out the toys- that's all WORK and in my view; and clearly paid time (as well as turning all that crap back in.

[wyoung8]

We used to get paid half hour line-up pay, which covers the 15 before and the 15 min after for don/duf. then about 5 years ago they just took it away. We are also in a suit over this. MM4L is absolutely correct. This is an issue of getting paid for time spent there. But alot of cops in larger depts do not want to wear their uniforms home. they may be meeting iend or family. stopping or gas, groceries, etc. Plus cops will break their meal breaks to respond to some emergency. Plus most depts that have won this suit are only giving back pay to the officers that were assigned to field duties only( ie not plaintclothes/ detectives)

[RcrBoy]

Well I'm going to throw another job type into the mix. Auto technicians.....

Back when I was starting out, we were required to be "clocked" out while cleaning our tools and work areas. I called BS because my tools and work area were clean when I started work at 8:00. so I should be paid to "reset" by cleaning up 15 minutes before my clock out time, or overtime if work runs late. I'm not union, don't like 'em, and I negotiate for myself.
Have not had any issues with it for 30 years :teeth

If policy dictates you cannot show up in uniform ready to go, then you should get paid to "setup" when you arrive because you're now on "their time"

It's sad in this day and age when crime is so much more aggressive and police pay has not changed much to reflect that. IMHO it is an unrespected and under paid job. I would not do it. So hat off to you guys for what you do, Thanks. :thumbup :mm4l :flag


:loco Mark :loco

[motorman4life]

So, I guess all of us out there that have to wake up eary to SHIT SHOWER SHAVE AND DRIVE TO WORK should get paid for that too. There are many jobs you can roll out of bed 5 min before you start work show up and do your job and it doesn't matter. For this kind of job you wont be paid shit for. Then you have jobs with "more responsibility" and tasks you know you are going to have to do when you sign up for the job. DAMN, LEO's are making nearly 100k per year. All I know is I have no problem taking an extra 30 min to prepare my days attire to look and be the professional I am to make 60k per year.

I have to shit, shower and shave on my time, thanks.
Again, for those that are not paying attention, this issue came up as a result of 2 things.
1) people getting written up and reprimanded for showing up for work only 15 or 20 minutes early (prior to their paid shift) and it not being enough time to get their required equipment prepared for the briefing (meeting) start. The feeling was that the work they were doing (fueling vehicles, inspecting and signing for equipment, etc..) was not personal work, but job related and should be paid time. Keep in mind, if they were to get injured or cause an injury during that time, it would be a work-related accident or injury.
2) people being written up for wearing their uniform while off-duty, in violation of the department orders that required they get dressed at work and disrobe at work. At MY current department I can get dressed at home and roll in. No biggie, I do that on my time. But, if I were prevented from doing that, it would be a similar situation to the "cleanroom" employees or people that have to get into a costume for their job.. it is work related.

As for those in the "private sector" that feel all of this is silly because no one pays them unless they are turning a wrench or actively performing work, I say, these activities (inspecting equipment, fueling vehicles, signing out weapons) are work. As such, the time I am expected to be there to do that work should be paid.

[Bronto]

LEOs get paid to get in and out of uniform?

I don't know about getting paid, but the Tips are good :D

[McBride61]

This is pretty simple to me. If you have to be READY at 8am sharp then you need to be there at 7:59 ready to WORK. motorman4life has a great point, there are on the job duties that need to taken care of before he/other co-workers are READY so they should be paid. I'd fight for that too

So at my job if I were to come in at 8am then I'm there at 7:59am THEN turn on my computer.

[Nick]

LEOs get paid to get in and out of uniform?

I don't know about getting paid, but the Tips are good :D


<rimshot>

[5MARY4]

My previous agency fought and WON this very suit. The city was ordered to pay Officers 15 min OVERTIME for every day they worked,, dating back five years. Let's just say the checks were significant. It started off simple enough. We just asked the city to stop the practice. They refused. We asked again,, nicely. Again they refused. We threatened. They refused. We sued. They lost,,,, ALOT.

Do the math,, Officer making $40 per hr,, 10 hr day,,working about 200 days per year,, .25 hrs OT per day at time and a half,, for FIVE YEARS back pay. X that by about 70 Officers. They shoulda listened.

[silversvs]

Whadya buy?

[5MARY4]

I was an FNG when this happened,, I didn't get much $$ outta the deal,, but I didn't have to show up 30 min early for the rest of my "sentence" there.

You going to Vegas????????????????

[ateamer]

I can change into my uniform in about four or five minutes, so dressing isn't a big deal. I don't load my car or set up my equipment on my own time, though.

[Aluisious]

They're required to be somewhere and required to do something related to work.

They should get paid.

Duh?

[sugarmonkey]

teachers vs officers don't make sense . apples to pineapples if you ask me.


leo's are paid on an HOURLY basis, therefore just like any other job that's paid on an HOURLY basis, they should be on the clock as soon as you show up until you leave.

our drummer is a high school teacher and he truly gets the short end of the stick. teachers have no free time. he works his ass of cause he cares and makes him a better teacher and makes his students' education more valuable and enjoyable. he gets paid salary depending on how many classes he teaches, some of which might outsource him from his high school to a community college. he can choose to put in minimal time at the end of the day but instead he usually busts ass and stays at school 12-16 hours most days.

2 different pay structures.

a different example. I used to work at a major restaurant chain and our managers were there for so many hours, their pay ended up being 10 bucks an hour(salary)

we waiters made more - about 16 an hour with tips.

I'd have to agree here. In California you are either classified as exempt or non-exempt. If you are exempt you get paid 40 hours a week no matter what. If you have to work more than 40 hours a week then you still only get paid 40 hours. If you work less than 40 hours you still get paid for 40 hours.

If you are non-exempt you get paid for every momnet you are at work. If you work more than 40-hours you get paid for working more than 40 hours. If you work less than 40 hours you only get paid the hours you work. Sounds like Cops fall into the non-exempt catergory and they should be paid for their time from the second they get to work to get work done.

If my employer had me classied as non-exempt and told me to get to work early to satisfy a need of theirs, I would ask that they pay for my time.