"Assault in Santa Cruz"

[budman]

I am posting this for a friend.. he does not want to post it himself, but wanted to share the story to keep us all on our toes no matter where we are and in this case nothing to do with riding.

:smoking

"Assault in Santa Cruz"

Just last week, my high school buddy of 30 years an I were shocked into the reality that everywhere we hang out is not "nice" and "safe".

Jim and I gut mugged in downtown Santa Cruz on Wednesday night/ Thurs morning after the Robin Trower concert at the Catalyst. Omitting the details, which are fuzzy, we woke up in the hospital. I was all banged up, fat lip, chipped tooth, dizzy, big nose, swollen face.

Jim's eye got badly smacked, black and blue swollen shut. 17 Stitches. We're both OK, but a humbling experience.

The Santa Cruz Police did everything in their power to make this as painless as possible for us. Their behavior was absoutly professional.

Cops are my friends. Thanx dudes.

Just wanted to share this freaky experience that it doesn't always happen to the other guy.

And I sure didn't provoke anything. My first response is always RUN!!!

I will always be more suspicious of my surroundings, wherever I go. The ignorant bliss is over.

You guys be careful too.

[ckim34]

Sorry to hear about it. I know some guys in Santa Cruz PD and Santa Cruz S.O. and they are both great agencies

[silverbelt]

It is pretty much everywhere these days. Even at movie theatres, some folks are just at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up in the hospital. You see this every weekend at the Mercado Center here in Santa Clara. Ambulances and Police are always being called there, and I can't remember the last time being at that place without someone going to the hospital. The thing is, I did not see any provocation or stare downs, nothing.

Sorry this happened to you and I hope you and your friend heal up quick. But this is nothing new, in fact, it is getting worse. John said it best, its a sign of the times. Violence and physical assualts are just something we have to deal with. My only suggestion is to get into some martial arts or other self defense to keep in shape and your fighting skills sharp.

As a side note, do not rely on the cops. Last one I witnessed, the cops took 30 minutes despite alot of people calling 911 desperately trying to get the police to help. By the time the cops and paramedics got there, it was too late, the guy was unconscious and lost alot of blood and the perps were long gone.

Sorry for the long rant, but I wanted to share to this post by budman.

[Rel]

That's kinda a broad stroke to paint there, dontcha think.

I mean, you don't know what else was going on city at that time. LEO's are stretched to the limit with a multitude of calls. Sometimes we get calls, urgent calls, and it takes time to get there. The only time people want cops around is when they need them, and then it’s not quick enough.

I too am sorry that the two were accosted, however, blaming the cops for not being there in a timely manner seems unfair.

As a side note, do not rely on the cops. Last one I witnessed, the cops took 30 minutes despite alot of people calling 911 desperately trying to get the police to help. By the time the cops and paramedics got there, it was too late, the guy was unconscious and lost alot of blood and the perps were long gone..

[OldFatGuy]

That's kinda a broad stroke to paint there, dontcha think.

I mean, you don't know what else was going on city at that time. LEO's are stretched to the limit with a multitude of calls. Sometimes we get calls, urgent calls, and it takes time to get there. The only time people want cops around is when they need them, and then it’s not quick enough.

I too am sorry that the two were accosted, however, blaming the cops for not being there in a timely manner seems unfair.

I think (and I could be wrong) his point was that cops can't be expected to always be there, and I agree with that. That's why I wish it were easier (or even possible) to get a CCW permit in the Bay Area.

[T-1 Thunder]

We no longer go to "concerts" or "ballgames" for this reason.

If I am to attend a public gathering of sorts, it must be high-priced designated seating in a small group - not a freeforall like most "open" events.

Picture a concert at the Livermore winery, where you sit at a dinner table while Huey Lewis performs. High priced tickets, sure. But a whole different class of people.

Avoid big crowds, for they draw everyone, and someone could be the bad one you come across.

Times like this I'm glad I'm up here in smalltown Oregon, with a CCW...

[ckim34]

I think (and I could be wrong) his point was that cops can't be expected to always be there, and I agree with that. That's why I wish it were easier (or even possible) to get a CCW permit in the Bay Area.

Getting a CCW permit and then carrying a concealed firearm in many cases will cause another problem. There is a reason they are hard to get and most people who do get them are not qualified to use firearms in a high stress environment/situation.

Us cops are the first and last people, people want to see.

[OldFatGuy]

Getting a CCW permit and then carrying a concealed firearm in many cases will cause another problem. There is a reason they are hard to get and most people who do get them are not qualified to use firearms in a high stress environment/situation.

Us cops are the first and last people, people want to see.

So how do you explain the lack of "other problems" in states where they are easy to obtain?

[USARMworker]

Picture a concert ... where you sit at a dinner table while Huey Lewis performs.

:laughing Sounds a little *too* safe to me, ya pansy. :twofinger

..

[Rel]

I understand. Perhaps it can be interperted both ways..... However, when one says "Don't rely on the cops" it's kinda a bold statement.


I think (and I could be wrong) his point was that cops can't be expected to always be there, and I agree with that. That's why I wish it were easier (or even possible) to get a CCW permit in the Bay Area.

[}Dragon{]

Getting a CCW permit and then carrying a concealed firearm in many cases will cause another problem. There is a reason they are hard to get and most people who do get them are not qualified to use firearms in a high stress environment/situation.

Us cops are the first and last people, people want to see.

Have you looked at the crime rate in Vermont, where any law abiding citizen with a valid d/l may carry? :wtf

[mlm]

Have you looked at the crime rate in Vermont, where any law abiding citizen with a valid d/l may carry? :wtf
I suppose you think it's a valid comparison between a Raiders game and a wine and cheese party. :laughing

[}Dragon{]

I suppose you think it's a valid comparison between a Raiders game and a wine and cheese party. :laughing

I'm sure there is enough whine and cheese at a Raider's game.:thumbup:teeth

[ckim34]

So how do you explain the lack of "other problems" in states where they are easy to obtain?

Look at the difference in population between California and a state like Vermont. We have a huge population, and the more people there are the more likely it is that there are going to be people who are going to commit crimes. Not saying its just a numbers game, but it has something to do with it.

[mlm]

I gladly accept restrictions on my own right to a CC permit in order to prevent a lot of morons out there from getting theirs. :)

For every "Armed Citizen" out there you'll find at least 5-10 armed idiots. :2cents

[caponerd]

I don't know about other states, but in Oregon, you have to take a course before you're allowed to apply for a concealed carry permit.

The course consists of a full day of training. About equivalent to the sort of introduction the MSF training gives you to the concepts of motorcycle safety.

I took it, and the first half of the day was classroom training consisting mainly of legal issues around carrying a firearm and using it in self-defense.
The second half of the day was range training. An introduction to best practices for self defense with a firearm. They also emphasised that frequent practice was essential to reach a point where you could successfully defend yourself in a high-stress situation.

After taking the class, I opted not to bother applying for a carry permit. There are a number of legal issues I didn't feel like dealing with considering the fact that in all my years on this planet, I've never once been in a situation where I felt I needed a gun (which includes a few sticky spots). I'm still entitled to defend myself in my own home, which is where I feel I'd need a firearm the most. (home invasion robberies are on the increase, even in Oregon)

One interesting fact about concealed carry permit holders is worth noting. The incidence of people who are legally licenced to carry a concealed firearm in Oregon commiting firearm related crimes or using their weapon improperly is statistically zero. (I think they said there had only been one case)

[T-1 Thunder]

:laughing Sounds a little *too* safe to me, ya pansy. :twofinger

..
"Pansy" and "Wuss" are both titles I can, at this point in my life - happily wear. I no longer need to prove anything to anyone. And Godforbid - if the call came someday, the monster within me would wake. Until then, it sleeps.

Look at the difference in population between California and a state like Vermont. We have a huge population, and the more people there are the more likely it is that there are going to be people who are going to commit crimes. Not saying its just a numbers game, but it has something to do with it.

Regardless of population, it's about the RATIO. As in, for every thousand people - how many murders? Check into it, and be surprised at the comparison of "progun" states vs. "antigun" ones.

I gladly accept restrictions on my own right to a CC permit in order to prevent a lot of morons out there from getting theirs. :)

For every "Armed Citizen" out there you'll find at least 5-10 armed idiots. :2cents

These people you call "morons" - please dig up some facts about how many CCW holders used their gun and later were charged with a crime for it.

After reflecting on that, take note of all the criminals that carry a gun everyday that perhaps deserve your LABEL a little bit more.



I completed my basic safety 'training' here in Oregon recently, and didn't really need it. As a matter of fact, I pointed out a couple things that the instructor liked. Every trooper I've spoken with about it(my CCW) is glad to hear it. Carrying my pistol will only make me a bigger "Pansy", trust me. Any punk can walk up to me and call me a pussy and I'll apologize and walk away. Nothing to prove anymore. That time of my life is behind me.

[T-1 Thunder]

One interesting fact about concealed carry permit holders is worth noting. The incidence of people who are legally licenced to carry a concealed firearm in Oregon commiting firearm related crimes or using their weapon improperly is statistically zero. (I think they said there had only been one case)

Bingo! "MLM" should look into some of those statistics on a national level as well. Quite an eye opener.

[mlm]

Regardless of population, it's about the RATIO....

Not really. You'll find the higest crime RATIOS are in urban areas.

My only points were two:
1) It SHOULD be hard to get a concealed carry permit.
2) The pro gun folks are just as guilty as the anti-gun folks at abusing statistics.

Carrying my pistol will only make me a bigger "Pansy", trust me. Any punk can walk up to me and call me a pussy and I'll apologize and walk away. Nothing to prove anymore. That time of my life is behind me.
It's actually not that easy. If you carry a gun, you no longer have to worry about just defending yourself, but also defending your weapon. Like it or not, confrontations are escalated.

BTW: I'm generally pro-gun, but what makes sense in rural areas doesn't necessarily make sense in the city.

[PorradaVFR]

If you choose NOT to exercise your right to protect yourself, why should that hve ANY impact on the freedom I have TO do so?

For all they get right here in CA, gun laws are absurd. Oakland and other areas are violent as he'll and the solution is to take gun away from law abiding citizens. Odd how criminals (those already show an inclination to BREAK laws) fail to follow gun laws...but citizens do and they pay the price.

[silverbelt]

I understand. Perhaps it can be interperted both ways..... However, when one says "Don't rely on the cops" it's kinda a bold statement.

Ask yourself Rel, what if it was an off-duty police officer? I think you of all people can appreciate just how long 30 minutes "really" is. You cannot deny that 911 response times for police are longer than they have ever been. Not the fault of the police most of the time, but it does give merit to not totally rely on the police altogether.

[mlm]

If you choose NOT to exercise your right to protect yourself, why should that hve ANY impact on the freedom I have TO do so?

For all they get right here in CA, gun laws are absurd. Oakland and other areas are violent as he'll and the solution is to take gun away from law abiding citizens. Odd how criminals (those already show an inclination to BREAK laws) fail to follow gun laws...but citizens do and they pay the price.
I think I am safer NOT carrying a gun in the Bay Area. No offense, but I also think I'm safer because it is difficult (and I realize nearly impossible) for other citizens to carry concealed weapons.

I may have an entirely different position (on the first part) if I lived somewhere else. Don't confuse my opinions with the anti-gun crowd because they are more complex than that, but don't expect me to agree with some of the bullshit the pro-gun crowd puts out either. I'm simply weighing the risk -vs reward of carrying a firearm, and having other people carry firearms. I don't buy the argument that more people with guns would act as a criminal deterrent.

Anyways, this is off topic and I've stated my case. I can respect both side of the argument. I think the key point of this thread should be situational awareness.

[T-1 Thunder]

I think the key point of this thread should be situational awareness.

100% agreed. Nothing, no gun or cop - can replace keeping on the alert and being aware of everything that takes place within sight or hearing.

Marine Corps General Order #2.

"2. To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert, and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing."

Uh-Rah!

[awgeezdawn]

This unfortunate event serves as a reminder to be aware of our surroundings whether we're on two wheels or two legs.

[Bikeless]

This is sad to hear.

Yeah, crime is everywhere.....I remember when 'Hayward' was a whole different place (back in the early 80's)

[ex911]

I wish there were more detail on the original assault so we can perhaps learn something from their hard-earned experience...

[T-1 Thunder]

I wish there were more detail on the original assault so we can perhaps learn something from their hard-earned experience...

Crap - I've been meaning to post that. I actually thought about that very thing as I went to bed last night. Right on for putting it up.

To the OP - please, if you can, give us any details. Anything that you may think is "daily normal" may be a hint. Without hearing exactly what took place prior - we have no way to know if there were any warning signs. For all we know - this could actually be one of the .0001% cases where a predator lurks in the bushes for an ambush on a random victim.

But from my experience - it never works that way. There was always something that led to it. Something, anything - that could have been the clue that sets off the fire alarm in your gut and tells you "Get the fuck outta here right now!" or an inclination that a person you're around has got the wrong vibe to them.

Ask any prison guard, they can almost sense it before it goes down.

[Evol-E]

I say we gather the BARF militia and head down to SC for some BARf justice.

J/K Sorry this happened Budman. I go down there a lot to visit family and will be much more carefull after hearing bout this.

I have been known to go downtown SC and tie a good one on.

[serazin]

Since this has turned into a "gun permit" discussion, I have to ask:

So a guy has his CW permit, had the big hog leg in the holster inside his jacket and a few guys come up at the entrance to a theater ,or on the street, or whatever and it looks like ol' Cw holder is gonna get beat on. What happens? Does our hero pull his smoke wagon and start blazing away on a crowed street? Or, does he use his little lead spitting friend to scare the bad ol' muggers away?

Now away from the city, and people, (wittinesses) yer dang right. Smoke 'em all. No one left to tell anything but your side of the story.

Down town..ain't gonna happen. Getting beaten and robbed is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying the lady across the street a new kid.

And if the gun comes out and isn't smoking chances are your just provided the guy who's beating you a new piece.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT anti-gun. I am very pro gun but I know the difference between the OK corral and real life.

[T-1 Thunder]

Since this has turned into a "gun permit" discussion, I have to ask:

So a guy has his CW permit, had the big hog leg in the holster inside his jacket and a few guys come up at the entrance to a theater ,or on the street, or whatever and it looks like ol' Cw holder is gonna get beat on. What happens? Does our hero pull his smoke wagon and start blazing away on a crowed street? Or, does he use his little lead spitting friend to scare the bad ol' muggers away?


You forgot option C: To run like hell and try to get away from those guys until you are cornered and have no choice and fear for your life.

Once you carry a gun, you must commit your ego to being a "pansy/wuss" for life. Gotta have a big dick and never wanna prove it again.


And if the gun comes out and isn't smoking chances are your just provided the guy who's beating you a new piece.


The badguy you stop should never see your gun. They should never see it coming. Your committment to stop them comes before you even reach for it.

[ian408]

budman, sorry to hear about your friends. Hopefully, they heal well and quickly.

[cbrf3]

I gladly accept restrictions on my own right to a CC permit in order to prevent a lot of morons out there from getting theirs. :)

For every "Armed Citizen" out there you'll find at least 5-10 armed idiots. :2cents

+1, definitely true, but on the other hand the non law abiding citizen will get a gun illegally if they want, and leave the law abiding citizens unarmed.. but i'm no expert, i do know as said before that most people will not be trained enough to be operating a firearm in a stressful life and death situation, and could potentially cause more problems..

[zombi]

>>>For every "Armed Citizen" out there you'll find at least 5-10 armed idiots.

and what? a hundred? a thousand? armed criminals...

[serazin]

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=242955&d=1203557485

T-1, ahem, ....... it goes in your hand the other way.. :laughing

[T-1 Thunder]

T-1, ahem, ....... it goes in your hand the other way.. :laughing

Shit! No wonder the bullets never hit the target, but instead go over my shoulder. :)

[kelvin8]

to protect themselve and their homes. I've always responded with this question, "Are you willing to kill another human being?"

The usual answer is, "well, you don't have to kill them, you can just wound them or scare them ..."

"No," I says, "if you don't kill them, that gun will be used against you."

"Oh."

BTW, assaults against tourists went up significantly in Florida (but down against locals) when that state passed concealed carry laws. Why? Because the criminals knew that anyone getting off an airplane wasn't armed.

What any of this has to do with riding motorcycles, I don't know. I'd rather ride than shoot, but they both have a zen like appeal to them (target shooting, that is). :ride

[kelvin8]

Oh yeah, I'd take a Sig over a Glock any day.

[T-1 Thunder]

BTW, assaults against tourists went up significantly in Florida (but down against locals) when that state passed concealed carry laws. Why? Because the criminals knew that anyone getting off an airplane wasn't armed.


That's not a sound tactic. I've traveled a lot. More than most people. Always brought my gun with me. Florida/Texas/Kansas/Idaho/LA/AL/GA/MO. As soon as I got my rental truck - I carry according to the local law, be it loaded on my hip, loaded on the seat, or in a locked container with ammo seperate.

[mlm]

BTW, assaults against tourists went up significantly in Florida (but down against locals) when that state passed concealed carry laws. Why? Because the criminals knew that anyone getting off an airplane wasn't armed.

BTW: That is a total bullshit analysis concocted by the pro-gun groups to justify carry permits. Try looking at the facts without the leading conclusion attached. http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/Archives/visitor_crime.asp

Tourists have ALWAYS been easy targets for crime. Personally I think that Florida's concealed carry laws have contributed to global warming. :x