where to get safety clips

[kneedragon2000]

or safety pins... whatever they are called.
Im tired of constantly re-safety wiring some parts on my bike and want to go to the pin/clip set up on some things. anyone tell me where to pick some up locally?
im on the peninsula

[jorbar1551]

home depot? Thats where i get my cotter pins

[kneedragon2000]

I have cotter pins...
but I thought you needed these...

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=242961&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1203557963

if not then I got a whole box of those cotter pins.

[afm199]

JC Whitney or Harbor Freight will sell you a big box. Remember you can not use them on most safety wire apps, including brake calipers. Use them oil filler cap, rear axle.

[kneedragon2000]

right
thats all I was thinking...
thanks for the heads up though

[675 Trip]

For AFM 2008,

Only 3 fluid retaining items can be pinned, The oil fill cap, the dipstick (if separate), and the radiator cap. All other items must be wired. Also, the Oil Filter must have a hose clamp on it.

2008 Rule book section 8.1.1. f) and m)


Rule book doesn't seem to be online yet, but if need be, I can retype it for you.

[kneedragon2000]

thanks
I havent received the rules yet. is the rear axle still ok to pin?
on that note... did you find it to be a pain in the ass to get your application notarized?

[Jello_Biafra]

Big pain in the ass. Had to take 10 minutes out of my lunch one day at work. :(

8.1.14 Suspension and Chassis
a) The rear axle nut must be safety wired or secured with a mechanical locking device. Axles or axle pinch bolts must be secured by safety wire or a mechanical locking device.

[eeeeek]

thanks
I havent received the rules yet. is the rear axle still ok to pin?
on that note... did you find it to be a pain in the ass to get your application notarized?

Small pain in the ass. I just stopped by a UPS store on my way home. Well worth it to never have to sign a in at the track again.

[Jello_Biafra]

+1 to the UPS store. Otherwise there's a bajillion mobile notaries that would probably charge more but would come to where you are.

[675 Trip]

thanks
I havent received the rules yet. is the rear axle still ok to pin?
on that note... did you find it to be a pain in the ass to get your application notarized?

I thought it was going to be a pain, then I looked up notary on the web and found about 12 on my route to the post office, called one, he said he'd be there, took all of 5 minutes. cost $10, I think its a statutory limit (they can charge other fees for travel, etc).

[675 Trip]

8.1.14 Suspension and Chassis
a) The rear axle nut must be safety wired or secured with a mechanical locking device. Axles or axle pinch bolts must be secured by safety wire or a mechanical locking device.

So does a safety clip (closing kind) attached to a secure wire that prevents it from turning count as a mechanical locking device?

[afm199]

Ask ed

[pr0phet00]

Per Ed, Cotter pins (the kind that came with the stock bike) or the 'R' cotter pins with the the lower saftey wired so it cannot slide back out. The old 'D' type hooking ones will not be allowed this year.:cool

[Mick-e]

Per Ed, Cotter pins (the kind that came with the stock bike) or the 'R' cotter pins with the the lower saftey wired so it cannot slide back out. The old 'D' type hooking ones will not be allowed this year.:cool


To answer the original question: A big hardware store will probably have them. I got mine from Center Hardware in SF. The small Ace stores did not have any.

And just to stir the pot, why are we getting rid of the safety pins? I've raced with two other org's this year, WERA, and WSMC, and nobody had a problem with my break caliper bolts secured with safety pins.

:teeth

[kneedragon2000]

For AFM 2008,

Only 3 fluid retaining items can be pinned, The oil fill cap, the dipstick (if separate), and the radiator cap. All other items must be wired. Also, the Oil Filter must have a hose clamp on it.

2008 Rule book section 8.1.1. f) and m)


Rule book doesn't seem to be online yet, but if need be, I can retype it for you.


since you offered...
what is the ruling on number plates on the front of the bike if it has a center air duct?
do you still have to have 2 #'s, one on each side?

[675 Trip]

8.2.1 Number Plates:

the wording for the front is basically the same as 2007, I have a 675 with a center duct and I ran one number on the front above the duct (onto the windscreen) and did not have a problem.

Tail numbers have changed. you can run side fairing, side tail or across the tail. yeah!

"a)... Side number plates must be located on each side of the front fairing (i.e. close to the engine) or on each side of the tail section.

The tail section number plate may instead be a single number that spans the width of the tail and faces the rear (AMA-Style)... "

other sections appear to be the same as 2007.

[kneedragon2000]

DAMMIT
ok, thanks for the info!

[Jello_Biafra]

And just to stir the pot, why are we getting rid of the safety pins? I've raced with two other org's this year, WERA, and WSMC, and nobody had a problem with my break caliper bolts secured with safety pins.

Why are you breaking caliper bolts? :confused

:D

I believe the issue is with people using clips that hang by 8 feet of wire instead of being tight and putting positive force on the fastener.

So with the tail number.. if I were looking down at my bike, facing the same direction at it, I could put a single number across the tail in that direction?

[675 Trip]

My understanding is it should read from the riders left shoulder to right shoulder.

So if you are wheelieing (sp?) away, it should read the correct way from behind you.

[Jello_Biafra]

That is *awesome*. My tail is much flatter on top than on the sides.

I wonder if you'd get shit for having your transponder in the middle of it?

[675 Trip]

That is *awesome*. My tail is much flatter on top than on the sides.

I wonder if you'd get shit for having your transponder in the middle of it?

Probably would obscure the number. (and cause a problem)

I am doing mine with the number about 1" off the back of the seat and the transponder at the very tail. Plenty of room that way. I guess you could reverse it , but it might get crowded and defeat the purpose.

[2shott]

I have cotter pins...
but I thought you needed these...

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=242961&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1203557963

if not then I got a whole box of those cotter pins.

What I don't understand with the rule change is that when dealing with the rear axle, for example, according to the rules having it safety wired is acceptable using, what .025 or .030" wire, but wiring correctly a "D" safety pin with double the thickness of safety wire is not acceptable. The whole purpose is to prevent the axle nut from backing out, and I don't see how it is safer with wire going through the split nut and drilled axle than a solid thicker piece that you would have using any "D" pin that I've seen....:ride:nerd

[eeeeek]

What I don't understand with the rule change is that when dealing with the rear axle, for example, according to the rules having it safety wired is acceptable using, what .025 or .030" wire, but wiring correctly a "D" safety pin with double the thickness of safety wire is not acceptable. The whole purpose is to prevent the axle nut from backing out, and I don't see how it is safer with wire going through the split nut and drilled axle than a solid thicker piece that you would have using any "D" pin that I've seen....:ride:nerd

I'm fairly certain that the rule was not changed for the rear axle.

[675 Trip]

Probably would obscure the number. (and cause a problem)

I am doing mine with the number about 1" off the back of the seat and the transponder at the very tail. Plenty of room that way. I guess you could reverse it , but it might get crowded and defeat the purpose.


Joe took a picture at the last track day where I stencilled my number to see how it would fit. Before anyone jumps on me, I know the coloring is not legal, I was just laying it out to see how it looked.

For what it is worth, The pictures of bikes with side fairing numbers, you couldn't read the numbers from the inside of the corner at all. The tail is much easier to read from the inside. Of course, the fairing numbers would be great to read from the outside. I can see it now, 2009 rules numbers on front, fairing, and tail :)

[675 Trip]

I'm fairly certain that the rule was not changed for the rear axle.

I don't think the rule needs to change for the interpretation of "what is safe/acceptable" to change and it did come up specifically during that rule discussion.

I will show Ed my setup on monday and get an educated (he's the decider, afterall) opinion on whether it will be legal this year.

[Jello_Biafra]

Joe took a picture at the last track day where I stencilled my number to see how it would fit. Before anyone jumps on me, I know the coloring is not legal, I was just laying it out to see how it looked.

For what it is worth, The pictures of bikes with side fairing numbers, you couldn't read the numbers from the inside of the corner at all. The tail is much easier to read from the inside. Of course, the fairing numbers would be great to read from the outside. I can see it now, 2009 rules numbers on front, fairing, and tail :)

Thank you. :thumbup

Is that the correct spacing and number size?

[675 Trip]

My numbers are bigger than required at 6"

The requirement is 5.5" tall, 1" stroke, .75" space between, no curly cues, or anything fancy. As long as they can read it clearly from 75ft, it's good.

I don't have my tail here to measure, but I believe that everything on there is to spec size wise. Remember that the background color numbers are what would actually be black, and the outlines are not legal.

[675 Trip]

I'm fairly certain that the rule was not changed for the rear axle.

Not changed per se, but definitely clarified which eliminates a lot of what passed last year.

I went over some of the wiring questions specifically with Ed with examples from my bike and his. I was very surprised to find that what he intended to have passed as rules were not what we discussed at the meeting.

I thought I could write between uploaded photos, but I guess not.

Photo 1 (with Yellow wire cover), NOT LEGAL - Neither the pin, nor the method are legal this year (they were allowed in 2007) -

Photo 5 is the same axle as Photo 1 with a LEGAL wiring job - Notice that the wire is taught even though it is small gauge and is holding/pulling in the direction that the nut would have to turn to loosen.

Photo 2 is a legal R pin but it is not complete because it is missing the safety wire.

Photo 3 shows all it takes to make the R pin legal - Just wire a loop around the open end at the kink. We used heavy gauge wire so it would show up in photos, but thin wire is perfectly ok.

Photo 4 shows the end product of a legal rear axle with an R pin.

-

Just to recap, only the last two photos are legal for AFM this year. Some of the safety pin style clips are very beefy and would be safe, but it would be very confusing to say such and such gauge is legal and smaller is not, so none of them are legal for the axle.

The safety pins ARE legal this year for the radiator cap, oil fill and dipstick, but only reluctantly because of the misunderstandings at the rules meeting. Ed would very much like to see the R pins with safety wire instead. or just safety wire.

[kneedragon2000]

awesome
thanks for the thorough info man

[omegajeff]

This seems completely retarded to me. What was the justification behind the change?

Not changed per se, but definitely clarified which eliminates a lot of what passed last year.

I went over some of the wiring questions specifically with Ed with examples from my bike and his. I was very surprised to find that what he intended to have passed as rules were not what we discussed at the meeting.

I thought I could write between uploaded photos, but I guess not.

Photo 1 (with Yellow wire cover), NOT LEGAL - Neither the pin, nor the method are legal this year (they were allowed in 2007) -

Photo 5 is the same axle as Photo 1 with a LEGAL wiring job - Notice that the wire is taught even though it is small gauge and is holding/pulling in the direction that the nut would have to turn to loosen.

Photo 2 is a legal R pin but it is not complete because it is missing the safety wire.

Photo 3 shows all it takes to make the R pin legal - Just wire a loop around the open end at the kink. We used heavy gauge wire so it would show up in photos, but thin wire is perfectly ok.

Photo 4 shows the end product of a legal rear axle with an R pin.

-

Just to recap, only the last two photos are legal for AFM this year. Some of the safety pin style clips are very beefy and would be safe, but it would be very confusing to say such and such gauge is legal and smaller is not, so none of them are legal for the axle.

The safety pins ARE legal this year for the radiator cap, oil fill and dipstick, but only reluctantly because of the misunderstandings at the rules meeting. Ed would very much like to see the R pins with safety wire instead. or just safety wire.

[675 Trip]

This seems completely retarded to me. What was the justification behind the change?

The justification is that it in the opinion of the head tech inspector, it should have been done long ago and due to confusion, wasn't enforced.

Last year there were apparently multiple incidents with missing hardware after races. Who knows if the hardware was there before the race.

Ed's way is 100% secure, so I think that is the point. I will bet that next year (2009) the safety pin style will not be legal for anything.

As an example of how the safety pins fail, see the attached photo of my oil drain plug when Ed and I were checking out my bike. Not sure how this point got stress put on it that way, but it definitely got yanked. Maybe I caught it on something loading and unloading. Actually, that is probably exactly what happened as my clearance on my ramp is pretty slight with my tail lowered and I now load the bike without the belly pan most of the time.

It is now safety wired which took all of about 15 seconds.

The loops on the R pins are very easy to put on and come off very easily with angle cutters.

[christofu]

Back in the days when I used to do tech inspection I saw many, many examples of bikes with clips on the caliper bolts (for example) that were completely useless because the retaining wire was so loose that the bolt would have no problem spinning if it really wanted to.

If you want to understand more about what CAN happen, I suggest you ride a single for a while. On a single, anything that isn't properly safety wired or locktited down WILL back out. Not might... will. Usually in about 30 seconds. Needless to say, wiring up my old single took a lot of safety wire but at least I was sure that nothing was coming off halfway around the track.

On a related note, I certainly suggest that people ask about safety wiring. I've seen lots of safety wiring jobs that had so much slack that it was, again, pointless. The idea is that the wire exert positive force against the object to be retained such that object cannot rotate in the "undo" direction (usually counterclockwise). That means that the safety wire needs to be tight, and preferably attached to the bolt head/whatever on the side that will stop the bolt rotating counterclockwise. In many cases, that means it's worthwhile to drill bolts for wiring ON TWO OPPOSITE SIDES so that whenever you replace th bolt you always have a good chance of it ending up with a hole you can use to properly retain it.

[Tazman]

Well said!!! Thank you.:thumbup

Back in the days when I used to do tech inspection I saw many, many examples of bikes with clips on the caliper bolts (for example) that were completely useless because the retaining wire was so loose that the bolt would have no problem spinning if it really wanted to.

If you want to understand more about what CAN happen, I suggest you ride a single for a while. On a single, anything that isn't properly safety wired or locktited down WILL back out. Not might... will. Usually in about 30 seconds. Needless to say, wiring up my old single took a lot of safety wire but at least I was sure that nothing was coming off halfway around the track.

On a related note, I certainly suggest that people ask about safety wiring. I've seen lots of safety wiring jobs that had so much slack that it was, again, pointless. The idea is that the wire exert positive force against the object to be retained such that object cannot rotate in the "undo" direction (usually counterclockwise). That means that the safety wire needs to be tight, and preferably attached to the bolt head/whatever on the side that will stop the bolt rotating counterclockwise. In many cases, that means it's worthwhile to drill bolts for wiring ON TWO OPPOSITE SIDES so that whenever you replace th bolt you always have a good chance of it ending up with a hole you can use to properly retain it.

[afm199]

Anybody who raced thirty years ago knows what safety wiring is for. To keep shit from falling off. My old Norton would vibrate stuff loose in six laps. Vik's post about singles is right on.



The safety wired R clip on the rear axle is PERFECT. It won't come off. Safety wire holding an axle nut is worthless.

[Tazman]

Vik's post about singles is right on.

Ummm he's Chris, I'm Ed, and You're Ernie. Forget the med's this morning??:rofl

[christofu]

Much to my surprise I discovered this morning that people perhaps don't exactly understand the point of safety wiring. I was "informed" via email this morning after my post above that I'm completely wrong and that the purpose of safety wire is merely to keep the bolt with the motorcycle in case the bolt backs out, and therefore, safety wire doesn't need to be tight. In fact, "it's better to have lots of slack so you can undo the bolt without having to remove the safety wire".

Needless to say, once I woke up from passing out I laughed quite a lot.

Sorry, but that's the wrong answer.

The purpose of safety wiring is to stop bolts, caps, drain plugs, etc from even thinking about coming out. If you safety-wire something and you can even imagine a situation where the bolt might still come out then you need to go back and do it again.

Removing a bolt/cap/plug that has been wired properly requires by definition snipping and removing the wire first.

Signed,

Vik. Umm.. Chris. Umm.. who am I again?

[Tazman]

Much to my surprise I discovered this morning that people perhaps don't exactly understand the point of safety wiring. I was "informed" via email this morning after my post above that I'm completely wrong and that the purpose of safety wire is merely to keep the bolt with the motorcycle in case the bolt backs out, and therefore, safety wire doesn't need to be tight. In fact, "it's better to have lots of slack so you can undo the bolt without having to remove the safety wire".


Vik. Umm.. Chris. Umm.. who am I again?

:wow :rofl:wow

Chris I would love to see that e-mail. Can you snip the senders address and name and forward the rest to me? I need a good laugh.

I'll tell you who you are soon as you tell me who I am. :loco

[eeeeek]

Much to my surprise I discovered this morning that people perhaps don't exactly understand the point of safety wiring. I was "informed" via email this morning after my post above that I'm completely wrong and that the purpose of safety wire is merely to keep the bolt with the motorcycle in case the bolt backs out, and therefore, safety wire doesn't need to be tight. In fact, "it's better to have lots of slack so you can undo the bolt without having to remove the safety wire".

Someone actually sent you that?

[afm199]

Ummm he's Chris, I'm Ed, and You're Ernie. Forget the med's this morning??:rofl

Uhh, WTF I shoulda known he said single. :thumbup Who's Ed? :twofinger

[675 Trip]

Someone actually sent you that?

And people wonder why we NEED to have these discussions.

When I first put on safety wire, somebody told me the point was sort of like painting bolts as you assembled a bike to mark those that you had torqued correctly.

With the propensity for using forearm torque wrenches and stretched bolts, proper, effective, safety wire is all the more important.

Ed,

Is the safety wire on my rear axle nut sufficient in your opinion? I use a torque wrench on it, so I am confident it won't come loose, but as an example, should something else be recommended?

Also, are there different methods that are acceptable that I can try to get photos of?

[eeeeek]

And people wonder why we NEED to have these discussions.

When I first put on safety wire, somebody told me the point was sort of like painting bolts as you assembled a bike to mark those that you had torqued correctly.

That's partially true. If I don't have somethjing safety wired, I assume it isn't torqued, for example. I got into the habit of wiring immediately after torquing down bolts. That's just a bonus, though, and not the primary intent of safety wiring.

As a side note, The AMA doesn't require nearly as much safety wiring as the AFM. Not good, not bad, just an observation.

[Tazman]

That's partially true. If I don't have somethjing safety wired, I assume it isn't torqued, for example. I got into the habit of wiring immediately after torquing down bolts. That's just a bonus, though, and not the primary intent of safety wiring.

As a side note, The AMA doesn't require nearly as much safety wiring as the AFM. Not good, not bad, just an observation.

True they don't require alot of items to be wired but if you look at any of the factory teams bikes they are all immactulately wired, items that are required as well as items that are not.

[christofu]

I'll tell you who you are soon as you tell me who I am. :loco

I'm the good looking one. The other one has too much hair on his head (but not nearly as much as he used to) and also talks with a funny accent (just like the rest of you)

[Seesm]

safty wire does not have to be at the point of breaking you just want it pulling from the side that will tight not allow it to loosen... Never had a problem with any safty wire job I have done and they are super tight just tight enough the bolt can't loosen.. I never used the clips cuz I could not find them... So I always safty wire... It makes a huge difference and once your good with it.. only seconds to do it... at each area your working with...

[bikerdr]

Does the gauge of the safety wire matter? I'm looking at a website that has .02, .028, and .032. I looked in the AFM rule book and didn't see anything about safety wire gauge...

<-- noob

[2shott]

Does the gauge of the safety wire matter? I'm looking at a website that has .02, .028, and .032. I looked in the AFM rule book and didn't see anything about safety wire gauge...

<-- noob

There is no rule book spec as of yet. The thinner the wire, the easier it breaks when you are twisting it up, esp. with safety wire pliers. Even if you don't break it you can feel the heat from the tension and friction. the thicker tends to be stronger, but the .020" definitely "looks" the best....

[bikerdr]

Alrighty, I'll go in the middle and do the .028. Thanks for the input!

:Port

[KimDN]

Here's a trick to making safety wiring quicker/easier; drill more than one hole through the bolt. For radial calipers, this will make it easier to thread the wire though.

Another thing I do is to use a slightly bigger drill bit (lots of people seem to use 1/16"). The hole is a little easier to thread wire through, and the drill bit won't break nearly as easy. I'll use a 3/32 most times--the bonus is, your bike is lighter afterwards :)

[2shott]

Here's a trick to making safety wiring quicker/easier; drill more than one hole through the bolt. For radial calipers, this will make it easier to thread the wire though.

Another thing I do is to use a slightly bigger drill bit (lots of people seem to use 1/16"). The hole is a little easier to thread wire through, and the drill bit won't break nearly as easy. I'll use a 3/32 most times--the bonus is, your bike is lighter afterwards :)

Also, If you have an entire bike to do you might want to invest in either a vice or a small drill press, as you will break less drill bits that way. I have always gotten craftsman drill bits from Sears, and take them back when they break or get dull; they're under the same warranty program as their hand tools...

If you're truly in a bind and don't have enough time you could also use a safety wire washer- the idea behind it is you take out the bolt in question, put on this as a washer, fold up the tabs securing the head of the bolt, and safety wire the longer tab which is pre-drilled. Again, I would not recommend this for an entire bike to be used for a whole season- more for a case where you're stuck, no power outlets, batt dead, drill bits are broken, techs closing in a few minutes, and It'll do to get you out on track....:cool

[bikerdr]

I have always gotten craftsman drill bits from Sears, and take them back when they break or get dull; they're under the same warranty program as their hand tools...


That is a mighty fine piece of advice!!!