In case it didn't catch your eye, 250 class is on the chopping block for Endurance

[675 Trip]

In this thread, starting with post #8, the discussions begin about eliminating the 250 class from the Endurance Race.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235449

If someone knows a better way to link to it, let me know.

Here is a better link http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3727754

The discussion on the AFM board is a smaller audience, so hopefully this can get hashed out before the next board meeting on March 12th.

The board meets at 7pm, the general meeting starts at 8pm and the board continues after the general meeting is done. I thought members were only welcome starting at 8pm, but from Alex's posts, it looks like we are welcome for the whole meeting.

The March meeting should address the new crash rule as well.

[afm199]

Well that ought to stir up a shit storm among four members! Who will then proceed to disrupt the meeting :laughing

[675 Trip]

Watch out ernie, according to my barf rating, I slap children and old men. :)

People complain that they don't know what's going on and how they have so much support for their position if they only had a chance to get that support together.

I think Alex's analysis that 27hp v. 120 was bad, but 27 v. 200 is ridiculous is spot on. I am not a fast racer and riding with "fast" 250s seems a lot more dangerous than the open GP bikes buzzing me at an even higher delta.

Berto, for one, said that he didn't run the endurance because running liters with 250s was too dangerous. It would be nice to get both sides hashed out here and on the AFM forum before the next meeting so we can bring the arguments that survive to the board.

Another way to look at it for 250 riders is that it gives them a chance to ride a different bike for a race.

A bunch of my friends who normally ride SV's did the endurance on a 600 and had a good time.

[duh_ave]

so how does eliminating the 250's make it safer? Meaning, there is no guarantee a 600 rider (for example) isn't going to be riding at 2 or 2+ minute lap times, making that rider just as much of an issue.
Some of the 250 guys are sub 2 minutes easily, so... lets define "safe" a little more eh?
If it's truly a safety fix, then impose a minimum lap time for the race and make each rider qualify that minimum time on the bike during friday practice (if they are racing "out of class").

I already sent this in to be on the next meeting agenda.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the clubs median lap time at Sears? I mean, wahts the fastest and whats the slowest and how does reflect in this?

[Jonny]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the clubs median lap time at Sears? I mean, wahts the fastest and whats the slowest and how does reflect in this?

of the published fastest race laps from the August 2007 Infinion round

n = 581

median = 1:50.74
Max = 2:16.05 (a 250 production rider)
Min = 1:39.62 (an FP rider)

but, these numbers are not what you need, its the endurance race lap times that should be looked at (and I don't have), since that was the argument for dropping the 250's from the endurance race

Dave, why is it I always have to set you straight on the numbers... :laughing

[675 Trip]

During the season, the 250 prod bikes were doing 2:00 to 2:10, but none of them ran the endurance.

In the 250 class, there were 3 125s (assuming a typo) and 1 450. they finished 23rd to 36th overall - in the 3rd quarter of all the entries.

I don't think those bikes are the ones that are the concern, as much as the 250 ninja's that didn't run.

[Holeshot]

Foreman, you rule man! Eric, thanks for broaching this subject. We tabled the issue so as to get input from Dave and Ken as well. The closing speeds on the 250's lap after lap is a distinct danger, especially considering this is the only time during the year that many literbikes and 250's will share the track at the same time. The safety issue, in my mind, comes from midpack liter/750/600 riders closing on 250's which they have little to no experience with.

Alex makes a great point that ALL the I4's have gotten signifigantly quicker and the 250's have not. The disparity is growing and making an icreased safety hazard.

[Gary J]

We tabled the issue so as to get input from Dave and Ken as well. The closing speeds on the 250's lap after lap is a distinct danger.
Posted this response on the 250P forum, but figured I'd post here too Berto, as some feedback for you to take into any AFM Board meetings, from someone with personal experience on both sides of the big/little big equation.

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I’ve done time on a Ninja 250 during race events, AFM practice events, and trackdays over the years. From those experiences I’ve had plenty of opportunity to formulate some real world impressions on the comfort and fit of being out on track on a 30HP, 300lb. bike. These are my impressions/feelings, FWIW.

Despite running lap times (1:57) in Saturday practice on the Ninja 250, that was 6 seconds under the minimum lap time (2:03) required to qualify for racing in the “F-40” class event at Infineon last year, at the end of the day after being out there on track in the race and getting buzzed by sea of big-bore machines ….. without being able to do anything but tuck in, hold my line, and hope for the best as they went by, left me with the decision to not enter this race again on the bike ….. for everyone’s benefit.

During AFM practice days last year I ran in “Group 2” on the Ninja 250, due to the lap times on the bike making it the proper fit. Again the comfort level of being out there on track with the throttle pinned, at 90’ish MPH up the front straight at T-Hill, with liter bikes coming up behind me, wasn’t a great feeling.

For safety’s sake, I adopted a personal policy of coming out of the last turn and then just staying to the far right, paralleling the hot pit wall, while running up the front straight. The idea being to put the bike out of the way of the faster accelerating/speed bikes; giving them clear track to “do their thing”, while I did “my thing” the best I could in a long straight, with 30’ish HP. Not an ideal situation, and not one I feel is really as safe for everyone as is desirable for club racing. Unfortunately in the case of practices with the AFM being strictly based upon “lap times”, there isn’t any other option to prevent this mismatch of “David and Goliath” being on track at the same time. The only other option being practices by bike size, but that would also present some serious disparities (safety concerns) on track too.

At regular trackdays, there’s normally a 3-Group format (A, B, C). Despite corner speeds in many turns on the Ninja 250 being up there with, or above, a large number of the bikes out on track in the “A” group, I’ve made it a point of not riding in that group when on the little bike. Riding in “B” group at the trackdays (where the lap times fit) ends up being a bit of a challenge on the 250 however, with the same big-bike high speed “buzzing” going on, and many corners where those same bikes end up becoming a moving obstacle to maintaining the life’s blood of the Ninja 250 for a fun/fast lap ….. being corner speed. That’s just the way it is at a trackday, where we (250 riders) just have to recognize the disparities, accept it, and ride accordingly to keep it safe for everyone.

From the other side of the fence, I’ve run the AFM 4-Hour every time it’s been offered since 1992. I’ve been mounted atop 400cc to 1000cc machines during those races, with many years racing the event on liter bikes. I remember the closing speeds that I experienced when coming up on the limited number of 250P machines out on track during those races. Though it was something that I safely dealt with in every case, I must say that each crossing of paths at a 50-60MPH+ speed delta was an event that got my “special attention flag” flying high. Catching the same little 250 machines every 5 or 6 laps during the race, and passing them again at high speed differentials, five or six times during a single one-hour stint on the bike alone, made these precarious passing events far from a rare event.

Based on all of these firsthand, on-track, experiences, from both sides, my opinion (FWIW) is that the AFM Board’s decision to remove the 250 bikes from the 4-Hour is ultimately in everyone’s best interest (safety). I say this despite being a passionate lover of riding/racing these little 250cc machines.

[duh_ave]

of the published fastest race laps from the August 2007 Infinion round

n = 581

median = 1:50.74
Max = 2:16.05 (a 250 production rider)
Min = 1:39.62 (an FP rider)

but, these numbers are not what you need, its the endurance race lap times that should be looked at (and I don't have), since that was the argument for dropping the 250's from the endurance race

Dave, why is it I always have to set you straight on the numbers... :laughing


Thanks Mom! :twofinger

so flow the proper info then or I'll roost you bad on Sunday. :teeth:Party

[TWF]

Alex makes a great point that ALL the I4's have gotten signifigantly quicker and the 250's have not. The disparity is growing and making an icreased safety hazard.
fyi.
slowest 250 class bike was 1:55
slowest 450 class bike was 1:55
slowest 600 class bike was 2:00
slowest 750 class bike was 1:48
slowest open class bike was 1:51

I think open class should be removed from race.disparity in corner speed is just to much.
when you are on 1000 anything else on track is slow,in straight line.:laughing

[TWF]

btw.as mentioned there was not one single 250P bike in race,none :)

[Holeshot]

Gary, thanks a ton for that. I know, all jest's aside, the 250's being out there isn't something that passes the test of reasonableness, IMO of course. Your exprience brings some heavy weight as far as I'm concerned.

Zoran, good. Then this won't be an issue that affects anyone.

[Corey11c]

There were 3 Honda RS 125's entered in the endurance race in the 250 class. They were doing (about) 1:46 to 1:50 lap times.

[TWF]

Zoran, good. Then this won't be an issue that affects anyone.
wrong.it affects everybody riding smaller bike than sv.
what does not affect anybody is leaving classes as they are.except few of you hot shots on big bikes whining about them.
I have been doing endurance racing longer than you been racing,never had problem with smaller bikes.it is not sprint race,you have plenty time to get around them.

[675 Trip]

There were 3 Honda RS 125's entered in the endurance race in the 250 class. They were doing (about) 1:46 to 1:50 lap times.


Holeshot,

It seems like something should be considered to allow the 125s to run even if they don't get a trophy apiece. Maybe there should be a max of one trophy for every 2 or 3 bikes in a class. so less than 4 or 6 bikes = 1st only, less than 6 or 9, 1st, 2nd, etc. seems silly for every entrant in a class to get a trophy. this isn't AYSO, right? seems like it should be more than 2 entries per trophy.

[afmotorsports]

A few people suggested that instead of dropping 250s, we should drop liter bikes if we're really advocating "safety" - I'm guessing that would fly like a lead balloon, but that's some of the feedback I received... Just more proof there's no way to please everybody. :teeth

[Holeshot]

wrong.it affects everybody riding smaller bike than sv.
what does not affect anybody is leaving classes as they are.except few of you hot shots on big bikes whining about them.
I have been doing endurance racing longer than you been racing,never had problem with smaller bikes.it is not sprint race,you have plenty time to get around them.

And bikes have gotten faster, minus the smaller bikes Zoran. Besides, we're only talking about the 250's being left out of the race mix. To say we killed a 500's chances is shear crap. People ride 01' GSX-R1000's out there. If your bike isn't competetive and you wish to win, pick one that is.

[TWF]

you are talking about 250P and I am talking about 250 class.2 different things.
I do have competitive bike,but not any more after you guys bump it in class up.
instead picking bigger bike I will simply not race that race.

[675 Trip]

Berto and Alex,

This discussion came from the other thread. (part of why I originally just linked over to the F4 thread. I sort of wanted this to be an announcement, but it needs to be bumped to keep it in view so I guess that it is necessary to have discussion here too.

Do one of you want to side with keeping the 2 strokes in the endurance?

QUOTES -

<<<<ElaineO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

thanks Holeshot

Eric, i don't really want to create a fuss to get a couple of bikes into the endurance race if everyone else doesn't want them. (i was asking about 125 and 250 gp bikes.)
i trust the board to make a prudent decision thank you though!
__________________
afm #494

<<<<From 675 Trip (Eric) (Me) in response to a discussion with ElaineO>>>>>>>>>>>>

cool,

The board always wants to make prudent decisions, but they are often operating in a vacuum because people think the board knows what the membership is interested in. Part of what I do is try to get the membership to talk about what they want the board to know so that if it is apparent that the board hasn't considered the position, I can bring it up.

I have to confess that I am not particularly versed in the lines and speeds of the 125 two strokes, but if they are similar to the SV650 or EX500 or a 450 for that matter, then it seems like it would be logical to include them instead of excluding them.

Let me know if you change your mind and want it brought up from the peanut gallery at the meeting.
__________________
Eric Snyder - AFM Communications Liaison

<<<<<<<<<<<<<From Jay Pilster>>>>>>>>>>>

Please bring that up at the meeting!! I think 125 and 250 2-Strokes can be fast enough to play. At least as fast as those nutty SVs... well, except the ones Zoran builds...
__________________
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Jay Pilster
AFM # 420

"instigating the instigators..."

[duh_ave]

A few people suggested that instead of dropping 250s, we should drop liter bikes if we're really advocating "safety" - I'm guessing that would fly like a lead balloon, but that's some of the feedback I received... Just more proof there's no way to please everybody. :teeth


Interesting suggestion!
I'm not for it particularly, but if one thinks on it, pretty much all the changes deemed in the interest of safety, which effect the entire club, are due to needs of the newer, faster liter bikes, which, I don't believe, area majority of the club.

How's that for a long sentence? :Party

[Holeshot]

Liter bikes through 600's...there's not a huge difference in lap times.

[TWF]

Liter bikes through 600's...there's not a huge difference in lap times.
I thought difference in speed was problem,not lap times.most teams were in mid to high 40's regardless of size of bike.
in fact only one bike was outside of 115%.
450's and 600's were slowest bikes on track(along with one motard).
there is reason endurance lap times are slower than usual.to avoid mistakes and courtesy to others on track.it is not about who have fastest lap.those that push in every corner on every lap don"t finish race.