What is it with this attitude?

[NorCalBusa]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

[5MARY4]

Welcome to my world

[zombi]

go figure man, we live in a world where the crooks start at the top with the president and work on down. no responsibility among the "celebs" so you don't see it in real life either. SOP USA these days. probably nothing you can do about it except try to live as an example of what you wish it was like.

[antarius]

That's why I hardly post in the LEO section anymore, NorCalBusa. I get tired of having to explain to people that this is not the forum for 1) certain videos complaints or 2) that they should own up to their actions.

When I was 16 I got two speeding tickets, one for 92 and one for 88. I didn't fight them, it sucked. Why didn't I fight them? I was going 92 miles per hour on one of them and I was going 88 miles per hour on the other. It wasn't all that long ago that people owned up to their decisions - good and bad. It's just.... different.

I blame the Liberals. :roflmao:

[Happy Hornet]

I've earned all my tickets!
Last week I was stupid enough to get not 1 but 2 tickets for the paper plate because:
1. I forgot the plate was probably in the mailbox and
2. after I retrieved said plate I was too lazy to put it on.
It's on there now!

[silverbelt]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

Because there are so few cops out on the street in most cities, no secret traffic enforcement is not what it used to be and thats the first to get cut in times of budget crisis. Just look at Vallejo actaully thinking about BK. Unreal.

Secondly, to most it is a game of cat and mouse. The chances of actually getting caught are pretty slim and even if you are, what are the penalties? Obviously, not a deterrant.

At 4 corners on Sunday, a couple bike were pulled over and just at that moment, a patrol car was coming from the opposite direction to stop them from running. Didn't know if they intended to or not. The point being that enough riders run from them, that they coordiante traffic stops with another unit to make sure the riders can't run.

[Archimedes]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

Where you been livin'? :teeth

This is nothing new. My grandad was a moto cop in Harlem in the 30's and 40's and he would tell me stories that mirror the same shit you see today. Irresponsibility is not a new millenium phenomena.

[SirFonners]

i blame it on rap music
with there hoes and gold chains
and booties bouncin in all sorts of different directions :x

[T-1 Thunder]

That's why I hardly post in the LEO section anymore, NorCalBusa. I get tired of having to explain to people that this is not the forum for 1) certain videos complaints or 2) that they should own up to their actions.

When I was 16 I got two speeding tickets, one for 92 and one for 88. I didn't fight them, it sucked. Why didn't I fight them? I was going 92 miles per hour on one of them and I was going 88 miles per hour on the other. It wasn't all that long ago that people owned up to their decisions - good and bad. It's just.... different.

I blame the Liberals. :roflmao:

I blame parents that defend their kids when the kids are wrong.
My parents always nailed me anytime I got into trouble.
I saw other parents stick up for their stupid kids, and those guys are now in jail.

I've earned my tickets, and I did not fight them - I apologized to the cops and felt bad for taking their time up to deal with my stupid ass.

[OldFatGuy]

I guess I must be a complete dick, because I fight all my tickets, whether I'm guilty or not. I have plenty of time to spend in court and if there's a chance it will save me hundreds of dollars, I think it's worth it. And if some of you think you're better than I am because you choose not to exercise your right to a trial, I don't really care. :p

[DucatiHoney]

I guess I must be a complete dick, because I fight all my tickets, whether I'm guilty or not. I have plenty of time to spend in court and if there's a chance it will save me hundreds of dollars, I think it's worth it. And if some of you think you're better than I am because you choose not to exercise your right to a trial, I don't really care. :p

+1

I don't really see how paying a huge fine for going +9 mph over the speed limit betters humanity--just an example, I realize that there are worse infractions worthy of punishment. If I killed someone because of negligence, for example, sure, I'm a bit more amenable to dealing with the repercussions of that. If paying traffic fines is a citizen's duty or moral obligation as is being implied, then the right to fight the ticket wouldn't be an option. Btw, my last ticket issued in December was recently DISMISSED and not on some random technicality--I simply proved that I did nothing wrong. Glad I fought it, too. :thumbup

[SirFonners]

I guess I must be a complete dick, because I fight all my tickets, whether I'm guilty or not. I have plenty of time to spend in court and if there's a chance it will save me hundreds of dollars, I think it's worth it. And if some of you think you're better than I am because you choose not to exercise your right to a trial, I don't really care. :p

if you have so much time to spend in court
you would think that you have time to spend time on the road
so there would be no need to go fast anyways if there is no time issue
so to my calculations it would be cheaper to jsut go the speed limit
based on tickets and gas usage:nerd mmmmmmmmglaven

[Beauregard]

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught.

The President, Congress, Representatives, Judges, Media, Mayors, State Legislators, Governors, et al don't hold themselves accountable; WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I?

What a stupid fucking question.

You're right, you don't get it.

[krongsak]

Taking responsibility for your actions and bending over to laws only intently enforced to fill the cash register of the government as opposed to ensuring the common good are two very different things.

[PorradaVFR]

My ex GF is a teacher. She has called homes to inform parents about their kids acting inappropriately and the PARENTS have argued with her.

When I was a kid if a teacher or principal called home my ass was GRASS. Now? The parents second-guess teachers. Pathetic. The odds of a teacher having an axe to grind vs it being a kid acting like a moron are pretty clear.

As cliche as it sounds, I agree that it comes down to parents. Kids are learning a distorted worldview where EVERYONE wins and there are no consequences. Real life will hit them like a train.

[DucatiHoney]

says the guy with "Dissent is not disloyalty" in his sig... :twofinger (sorry, I love irony and this one was just too good to pass up! :))

[PorradaVFR]

says the guy with "Dissent is not disloyalty" in his sig... :twofinger (sorry, I love irony and this one was just too good to pass up! :))

:laughing

I was referring to my advocacy for public dissent of governmental policy being a sign of someone actively involved as a citizen.

As a parent, I'm ALL for complete and absolute repression of kids. :p
243080

[DucatiHoney]

I know what you mean in that sig--it's been the staple of my political existence during the last 7 years. :thumbup I just wanted to give you a hard time. :p

[wsmc831]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

Pride is a word that will eventually disappear from the english language at this rate....probably before all the oil is gone.

[plumber]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

This is just the way the world operates. It's been going on for thousands of years. People will say anything and do anything to get out of being punished. I seriously doubt you haven't pushed the envelope yourself.

[catgirldanni]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

wait???? reflective stuff to fool red light cameras, thats pretty creative LOL

People are dumb. I drive in the car pool lane and if I get pulled over I know its my fault and I pay the fine :D I know u guys hate me for it. I speed too and if I get caught I pay that fine too. U guys should love me I pay bonuses :D

[NorCalBusa]

And the crap on YouTube makes me sick. Somehow "getting over" and taking advantage of others, then celebrating having done so via a video- is simply wrong. But the crowds seem to love it- and life, and ones contributions to it, are all about popularity I guess.

[Hooli]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

Simple. Spring is coming.

[scalvert]

I'm surprised that I'm going to be the first person to point out that you are ranting about people "getting away" with violating the law while displaying an avatar that clearly depicts you in the process of committing a serious moving violation on what appears to be a public road. They can and do cite, tow, and suspend licenses for the unlawful act of riding a motorcycle on only one wheel.

That you choose not only to capture the moment in a photograph, but are choosing to use that image as a public representation of yourself as a rider, I can only gather that you yourself represent the sentiment you are so angry about. Or did I miss the thread where you explain that your avatar is intended as a warning to others about the dangers of violating the traffic laws?

Pot meet kettle.

[Razel]

He couldn't fit
"Closed Course. Professional Rider. Do not attempt to do this at home"
under his user name.








:teeth

[serazin]

Well I know this sort of behavior has been going on since long before I was born, BUT, my generation (the hippies) really screwed the pooch.

We turned on tuned in and dropped out and thought we were so cool for doing so. (like we could actually change the world by lying around in the park at the end of Height street and smoking dope.) Then we started having kids and tried to make them into hippies as well. Well heck, we fought discipline, didn't give any to our kids and they grew up even more worthless than we did. Then THEY started having kids and the kids were looking for sometime to follow rather than their worthless parents so along came all this glamorous "thug life" crap and guess what, now we have yet another generation that is worthless but this time they aren't just lame, they're dangerous. Absolutely no respect for anyone else or anything.

Now I know, NOT ALL kids are like this and not all people from my generation were totally screwed up but I lived it, and almost everyone I knew lived it too. It took me a long time to figure out how messed my values were. Some of us never got it and still blame everything that is wrong with life as some example as to how 'the man' is holding them down and it's not their fault.

Hell, people stick their finger in a fire and look for someone to sue because the fire didn't have a warning label on it.

[scalvert]

(Responding to Razel)

Heh, well, and to be fair I agree with most of what he's saying. But this forum is filled with posts from two kinds of people: 1) backwards cap wearing whiners wondering why the cops had to fuuuuck with them they were only doing niiinety, and 2) the High, Mighty, and Perfect. There's about as much reality here as in a bad performance of _Mid Summer Night's Dream_

[SirFonners]

I'm surprised that I'm going to be the first person to point out that you are ranting about people "getting away" with violating the law while displaying an avatar that clearly depicts you in the process of committing a serious moving violation on what appears to be a public road. They can and do cite, tow, and suspend licenses for the unlawful act of riding a motorcycle on only one wheel.

That you choose not only to capture the moment in a photograph, but are choosing to use that image as a public representation of yourself as a rider, I can only gather that you yourself represent the sentiment you are so angry about. Or did I miss the thread where you explain that your avatar is intended as a warning to others about the dangers of violating the traffic laws?

Pot meet kettle.

since when did mad skillz become illegal?:cool

throw me in federal prison:teeth

[5MARY4]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????

[plumber]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????


:rofl

Happy hour must have started early tonight.....:thumbup

[scalvert]

Eh, none actually. I'd be all for it and that's part of why I was throwing it in NorCalBusa's face. Driving is dangerous, riding even more so, and the costs of collisions on society are huge. If everybody, all the time operated their vehicles within the confines of the law it's hard to argue there would not be fewer incidents.

I mean, the motorcycle industry would collapse because riding the back roads at speeds intended for unskilled drivers handling 7 axle trucks is so boring to not be worth doing, but I don't ride twisties anymore anyway. All the jobs affected are Japanese, Italian, and German anyway.

Question for you though 5MARY4, do you obey all the traffic laws all the time while on duty and off? We're talking 55 mph starting at Candlestick Point on NB 101, 55 when towing a trailer down 5 when the flow of traffic is 90, coming to a full and complete stop at stop signs at 3am on deserted roads in the middle of nowhere, avoiding routes where traffic signals are known to not pick up bikes, and waiting 10-15 minutes before running a stuck red on a deserted road at 3am (and happily paying the fine if an officer drives up just as you do it and doesn't believe your story), 25 the full length of Skaggs, never going WFO in the power band of that BMW 1200RTP listed in your sig (because there is no place on a public road where that kinda of acceleration is not exhibition of speed), etc, etc?

If you don't I'll take your comment as purely hypothetical.

[NorCalBusa]

Should I have gotten a ticket, I would of paid it. Would you like me to trot on down and fess up? Methinks the Judge would 5150 my ass :Party

(And since when does one need a pure soul to throw rocks at glass houses? I didn't get the memo.)

I'm surprised that I'm going to be the first person to point out that you are ranting about people "getting away" with violating the law while displaying an avatar that clearly depicts you in the process of committing a serious moving violation on what appears to be a public road. They can and do cite, tow, and suspend licenses for the unlawful act of riding a motorcycle on only one wheel.

That you choose not only to capture the moment in a photograph, but are choosing to use that image as a public representation of yourself as a rider, I can only gather that you yourself represent the sentiment you are so angry about. Or did I miss the thread where you explain that your avatar is intended as a warning to others about the dangers of violating the traffic laws?

Pot meet kettle.

[NorCalBusa]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????

Are you kidding? You'd be writing ass-packing 11-82's until you got carpal-tunnel if people, ya know, "stopped" at red lights and shit. WTF are you thinking?:shocker

[Psychochik]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????


None what so ever !! The thing is this, people are in too much of a hurry anymore to care about the stop sign they rolled through or the red light they just ran or the illegal driving on the shoulder. All for what ? A few seconds ?

Pshaw, as much as I would love to see people chill the fuck out on the road, its just not gonna happen. There isnt enough of a penalty for people to care too much. :x

[Archimedes]

You know what the first sign that you're getting old is? When you sit around and bitch about how bad kids are these days... :twofinger

[aztec929]

Are you kidding? You'd be writing ass-packing 11-82's until you got carpal-tunnel if people, ya know, "stopped" at red lights and shit. WTF are you thinking?:shocker

If everyone came to a complete stop at stop signs and the people behind them weren't 21703'ing or 22350ing,(obeying ALL traffic laws) there would not be an 11-82.

[ryanisgone]

When you watched old western movies, or read a book with a bad guy you actually liked, or find in said movie/book/comic/radio show a hero who has a rough edge, a dissident voice, a little bit of vice don't you root for them.

What is so fucking great about motorcycles is that we ignored the evolution of the cart to wagon to car to SUV and made the cowboy on the horse, the outlaw on the run, the man with wind in his hair awesome, we personify peoples modern ideas of them...and we keep doing it by going faster, making it lighter, pushing the limits and dying in the process.

Or to put it in another way, either be a Steve McQueen on your bike and use it or don't buy it in the first place. Or at least stay out of my way.

And oh yeah, fight your tickets, use your rights or don't bitch when they go away. And ideas of a perfect little utopia where everyone follows the law makes me feel suicidal.

My rant is over. Go in peace.

[motorman4life]

I was just going to :Popcorn on this one.. but, I wanted to add a few comments on this particular topic.

We, as a society, have really lowered the bar as to what is acceptable. It seems the "it's only wrong if you get caught" mentality has somehow morphed into, "I may choose to do wrong, but you better PROVE that I should have known it was wrong, then prove that I did it, then give me a warning before I can be held accountable."

I am a big believer in karma. I am also a big believer in doing the right thing.. because it is the right thing to do, even if is is not the easiest thing or the most convenient thing. I am also a believer in taking responsibility for one's actions and not looking to blame others for our bad decisions.

I believe too many people don't consider others. In that I mean, they don't consider that THEY may not be the only people that may end up suffering the consequences of their bad choices, bad acts and mistakes. It is just not fair to expect others to take up your slack or pay any penalty for your mistakes or conscious choices that result in a grevious outcome. That goes for stunters, street racers, even people that remove or modify the required mirrors, lights or reflectors on their vehicles. Across the board, you should consider how your choices may effect others and if you make a bad choice, you should expect to be held accountable for it.

If I have learned one thing in 20+ years of law enforcement, it is that everyone somehow justifies their actions. It does not matter if we are talking about someone the chooses to jaywalk, drive without insurance or shoplift a candybar to a cat burglar, an armed robber or a child molester. They all have ONE thing in common.. they have SOMEHOW convinced themselves that it is OKAY to do it.

It's not okay. People can justify genocide in their mind or in their public policy, that does not make rape okay. People can justify cheating on their taxes, that does not make driving on a suspended license okay.

What I'm saying is, everyone wants to hold their neighbor, their enemy, their friend, their family, themselves.. to a different standard. Well, there is not a different standard. It's not okay for one person to "bend" the law and get a walk when another gets fines or jailed for the same thing. That does not mean (to me) that we sould NOT hold ANYONE accountable for bending or breaking the rules just because EVERYONE is not caught every time and everyone that is caught is not given the same pentalty.

Too many people see injustice and use that to justify doing the wrong thing. "He got away with it, so I should be able to do it!" "She did something worse and got a pass.. so I shouldn't be held accountable since my infraction was considerably lesser."

I don't suppose we will ever see things get better. As time goes on, things seem to be getting worse. As movies, TV shows novels and video games embellish and glorify violence, criminal conduct and even just disrespectful and shocking behavior toward others, I see things only getting worse. As long as that is what sells, it will continue to be produced and each generation will need to amp it up to get the same "rush" or shock value.

Back in the 60's "Let's spend the night together" was a song that really pushed the envelope. That is very tame compared to the songs, videos and other media that is considered PG or even G rated, today.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a book burner. I don't blame the people that produce the garbage. I blame parents for being lazy in their duty to instill proper values and morals and expect the government to parent their kids so they can take the easy way out and try to be their kid's friend. I blame schools that punish kids for defending themselves and teach kids that they are owed "warnings" before they can be held accountable. I blame our courts, that consider the rights of criminals over victims and the privacy of patients over the safety of caregivers and first responders. I blame the high divorce rate and parents that use their kids as pawns to get back at their ex or play "Disney Dad" and try to make up for their shortcomings and neglectful parenting by spoiling their kids and making them little brats that grow up to be big brats. I could go on and on, but I'll wrap this up.

[SilverSliver]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????

I know this was a rhetorical musing, but, since I'm bored, I'll respond. The only way that EVERYONE would ever obey "the traffic laws" is if they were stripped of all free will and completely cowed into blind obeisance to the state. Allow me to explain.

I would say that most people break traffic laws, not out of any outright desire to "break the law", but because they feel the law imposes a ridiculous restriction upon them, and so should not apply. A man driving a modern sports car 20 over the limit does so not to "break the law", but because he is confident that he can safely do so - driving the speed limit would just be ridiculous. A woman might "roll through" a stop sign when she feels she can see in all directions, not because she doesn't want to "stop", per se, but because she feels it silly to do so when she can clearly see that it is safe to proceed. The examples continue...

The job of the police is to inform the man that he's not Andretti, and that an 85 Cutlass Supreme is not "a modern sports car." It's also their job to inform the woman that her SUV has blind spots the size of Texas, and she clearly didn't see the school bus that almost t-boned her.

From an absolute perspective, it would have been "better" for both the man and the woman to simply obey the law in the first place. From the individual perspective, it would not have been - for them to have done so, they would have had to accept that "the law knows best", even though they judged the law to be improper (or inapplicable) in their situation.

In conclusion, I'd rather live in a society of reasonably well-meaning law breakers (properly restrained by the constabulary) than one consisting of mindless drones. Sorry for the novel, but, like I said, I'm bored atm. :)

[ryanisgone]

I mean no disrespect, I honestly don't... but this is why those who enforce the laws don't create or write the laws. Enforcement does not mean interpretation nor does it mean final judgement. One man's opinion against anothers regarding written words and situations is the great power and weakness of law.

[scalvert]

In conclusion, I'd rather live in a society of reasonably well-meaning law breakers (properly restrained by the constabulary) than one consisting of mindless drones. Sorry for the novel, but, like I said, I'm bored atm. :)

Well said. I could actually care less about people following the letter of the law, especially as I (both from published studies and my own experience as a driver/rider) do not feel the traffic laws do a particularly good job of isolating and disallowing dangerous driving behaviors. It's hit and miss, like with most bodies of legislation. What I _do_ care about is the extremely lax attitude with which most drivers take to the road.

Where I greatly agree with MM4L and the other LEO's is that we'd be far better off both on the roads and in the rest of our lives if people were to take responsibility for their own actions. Where we differ is in the details of exactly what "taking responsibility" means. Either way, I support the LEO's in their efforts to bring consequences to bad driving, even if our definitions of "bad driving" don't exactly line up. We agree on most of the high points, they've made a career out of this and I have not.

On a more local scale, I do get annoyed with members of this forum for seemingly ignoring one simple fact: aggressive riding is inextricably linked with 1) sport and standard motorcycles, and 2) motorcycling culture. There is nobody here who doesn't _enjoy_ a bit of aggressive riding (even though aggressive riding is impossible without violating the traffic code). Given the number of :rip and :rose posts that appear here, we need to have frank and honest discussions about risk, responsibility, and the dangers of aggressive riding.

The LEO's have a lot of experience in this area and I value their input (really). What I don't like is the fantasy that frequently comes along with their opinions: that if all the pin headed no nothing civilians would just mind their betters life would be peachy. It's a silly sentiment in the first place, and it ignores the tension between the joys and risks of riding in exactly the same way "abstinence education" ignores the hormonal, scientific, and emotional realities of teenage life, just like Nancy Regan's disgraceful "just say no" campaign ignored the actual truths on the ground about who does drugs and why.

Reality is complex and nuanced. Anybody actually hoping to impart wisdom about reality had better be prepared to face that and be honest about it.

[B-Cuz]

Ever since people started believing their actions are the responsibility of outside influences rather than their own creation.

[cardinal03]

Every week it seems there's another post about hiding one's license plate, running from the cops, reflective junk to fool red light cameras, some scheme to do anything but fookin man up- you pick it...

What is it that makes so many people (sons, daughters, parents- alike) think it's "okay" to not take responsibility for their actions? When did it become okay to "get out of" something instead of either not doing it in the first place or appreciate there's going to be some licks if you do and get caught. Then, all your friends think it's cool that you got out of it. I don't get it.

Welcome to my world

Cops are getting soft, that's why. More tazing, less talking, that's what we need! Eliminate speeding tickets altogether, when you get pulled over you just get tazed one second for every 1 mph over the limit you are. :p

[5MARY4]

Do I obey the traffic laws while riding my 1200 at work??? If I am going from point A to point B,,, YES I DO. I obey the speed limit. I stop completely at stop signs. I use my signals. etc. I try to set the example. I literally have thousands of people watch me work every day. Some of those folks would LOVE to see me do something wrong so they could call my dept and make a complaint. That's fine. I simply choose not to give them any ammo.

Do I obey the traffic laws while riding enforcement. NO I DO NOT. I frequently surpass the speed limit in order to overtake a speeder. I accelerate at a very high rate of speed in order to overtake a red light runner. I split traffic at a pretty good clip in order to get the jerk who just tossed his smoke out the window. I am very highly trained to do this. I have the right to do this. And more so than the right,, I have the duty to do so. It's my JOB.

Do I obey the traffic laws while off duty?? I sure try. I have a 15 year old son that will be driving in a couple of months. I have tried to set the example for him as well. I have for a long time. I point out stupid driving and the consequences that might happen as a result.

Am I the last boy scout??? Hardly. I am a human being just like YOU. I however have had the "benefit" of learning some pretty serious lessons from others poor decisions. When was the last time YOU investigated a fatal traffic collision? When was the last time YOU saw a bloody / lifeless child with a crushed skull under the tire of a truck? When was the last time YOU saw a motorcyclist ripped in half with his innards spewn about the roadway. When was the last time YOU went with a chaplain to tell a loved one their family member was gone? ME? I've done all of the above and ALOT more in the last 13 years. I dont say this for any other reason than to give you MY perspective on traffic laws. This is why we take this shit seriously,, BECAUSE IT IS SERIOUS.

[Lucky]

MM4L and 5Mary4, you guys are both on point. Especially talking about running fatal accidents, talking to family members about the death of a loved one, blood, guts, accidents, stupidity, etc. I mean, I"m not going to lie, I went through the young and invincible stage. But, I've been in EMS since I was 20. And that was an eye opener. People do stupid things, and they or worse, innnocent people get hurt or killed. I got to learn all that first hand and said education was a very hands on approach obviously.

But, I think most people learn by seeing or doing. So, we can tell them drinking and driving, blowing red lights, speeding, etc. is dangerous and uncool to fellow man/woman until we turn blue in the face. However, until they see what happens, and that it can happen to anyone first hand, they will continue the party line of, "It won't happen to me." But, I'm still employed for that reason along with many others (like, stupidity, alcohol, and the fact 911 is a free phone call).

But, I"m glad there are people like Antarius, SilverSVS, Rel, 5Mary4, MM4L, Brash and other leo's who ALWAYS offer great, informative, and often humerous advice, tips, and stories. Whenever I get around to reapplying to different departments, if I become half the cop these guys are, I'll be stoked.

[nakedape]

Well, I "chill the fuck out the roads" because I got arrested and stuffed for going 100+. Wasn't fun and cost $2000. If that is not enough reason for you, good luck...NApe

[scalvert]

5MARY4... didn't know the 1200 RTP was a duty bike, I figured you liked it so much you had one for the off hours. Don't laugh, an uncle wore out more than one personal Crown Vic because he liked it as his duty car. I wouldn't have called it into play had I known it was your duty bike, MM4L and others have covered the ways that traffic laws affect on duty driving/riding, I wasn't trying to stir that kettle.

And since you asked, I've cleaned up my fair share of serious accidents including a full cord separation at T6. Fortunately no fatals, and because of context none of the truly innocents you mention. It's not easy, and you've easily seen 100x the amount of trauma that I have, but the visceral consequences of vehicular stupidity are very real to me.

For the record, I'm a fan of this forum and the chance for LEO's to present their view of relevant issues. There are some very sensible and well reasoned voices here, yours being one of them. However over the past year I've noticed the quality of dialog diminish, owing _mostly_ to dumb hotheads spraying attitude at some broadly defined version of The Man. I've also seen the LEO's here respond by resorting to their first and best line of defense: evocation of the Cop vs Idiot Civilian divide traveling in the company of its best friends "Argument by Appeal to Authority" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority and hand wringing over the general decline of society.

Rather than be silently disappointed by what I see as a decline in the level of discussion, I've been trying to highlight the flaws I see in that discussion. In that I do have something in common with you: tilting at windmills. My losing goal is internet forum discussion quality and yours is the quality of driving on our highways. Your goal is many times more important than mine. Consider my critiques the voice of a loyal (and only occasional) opposition.

[wyoung8]

:ride I agree with all. we all have a right to our opinions, "Your perceptions are your reality". Cops can't catch all traffic violators. But it does keep us all honest when driving. I know people sometimes will break traffic laws because they don't think the police are around. We all make decisions in life all the time the fear that they might get caught prevents some people from breaking the law. LEO issue citations to educate people. The driver recieving the cite and all other who are watching. (and we all watch) You should fight all your cites. All LEO's need the overtime. :deadhorse

[5MARY4]

5MARY4... didn't know the 1200 RTP was a duty bike, I figured you liked it so much you had one for the off hours. Don't laugh, an uncle wore out more than one personal Crown Vic because he liked it as his duty car. I wouldn't have called it into play had I known it was your duty bike, MM4L and others have covered the ways that traffic laws affect on duty driving/riding, I wasn't trying to stir that kettle.

And since you asked, I've cleaned up my fair share of serious accidents including a full cord separation at T6. Fortunately no fatals, and because of context none of the truly innocents you mention. It's not easy, and you've easily seen 100x the amount of trauma that I have, but the visceral consequences of vehicular stupidity are very real to me.

For the record, I'm a fan of this forum and the chance for LEO's to present their view of relevant issues. There are some very sensible and well reasoned voices here, yours being one of them. However over the past year I've noticed the quality of dialog diminish, owing _mostly_ to dumb hotheads spraying attitude at some broadly defined version of The Man. I've also seen the LEO's here respond by resorting to their first and best line of defense: evocation of the Cop vs Idiot Civilian divide traveling in the company of its best friends "Argument by Appeal to Authority" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority and hand wringing over the general decline of society.

Rather than be silently disappointed by what I see as a decline in the level of discussion, I've been trying to highlight the flaws I see in that discussion. In that I do have something in common with you: tilting at windmills. My losing goal is internet forum discussion quality and yours is the quality of driving on our highways. Your goal is many times more important than mine. Consider my critiques the voice of a loyal (and only occasional) opposition.


Scalvert: I appreciate the your point of view,, I honestly do. I KNOW internet forums are the wost venue for which to debate a topic. So much is lost with voice inflection, body language, etc.

The 1200 is the ONLY bike I ride. At the end of the week, I'm pretty much done with riding. What, no riding for pleasure you say??? Nope, unless I'm in the sand dunes on my Banshee going 80+ up a dune. That's my release.

Cop vs Idiot civilian? Not here, Iv'e got friends that are waaaay smarter than me. However, I do have the "benefit" of experiences they will NEVER have. How bout informed LEO vs uninformed civilian? OR,, LEO who KNOWS better but will never be able to convince the masses?

Argument by appeal to authority? I'm not selling toothpaste. I'm trying to educate at least one person. If I can, that's great.

Wringing my hands? Never. The day I do that is the day I quit and go flip burgers. I have the best job on the planet and I am thankful for it every day.

My goal is no more important than yours. In fact, I believe you and I see the issue very similarly. EDUCATION is the key here. Free, open, honest, CIVIL, discussion in order to bring the truth to light is my goal, as I'm sure it is yours. I think we are on the same page.

I admire you for being the loyal opposition. It keeps others on their toes and often makes one truly reflect on their position.

[NorCalBusa]

I mean no disrespect, I honestly don't... but this is why those who enforce the laws don't create or write the laws. Enforcement does not mean interpretation nor does it mean final judgement. One man's opinion against anothers regarding written words and situations is the great power and weakness of law.

I don't understand your post, relative to the topic? What I am talking about is people who fucking DID IT and then weasel their way out of accountability. It has nothing to do with enforcement interpretation. Can you clarify what you meant?

[NorCalBusa]

All- my post isn't about the LEO having to make people accountable- its about the people themselves and their family/friends holding themselves accountable and taking responsibility (when ya get caught). THAT's what seems to have fallen off the horizon...for too many.

[Psychochik]

Cops are getting soft, that's why. More tazing, less talking, that's what we need! Eliminate speeding tickets altogether, when you get pulled over you just get tazed one second for every 1 mph over the limit you are. :p

Now, that would definately make me think twice about goin over the limit !! :wow

Dont taze me bro !!!!!!! :cry :cry

[mlm]

Regardless of your view on how reasonable the law is, don't bullshit yourself: People speed because they're confident they won't get caught. I'm sure everyone would find the speed limit to be VERY reasonable if they knew the road was monitored by speed cameras.

[5MARY4]

My partner and I did a "scientific experiment" a while back. I cant remember if I posted about this or not.... We had been working an intersection where stop sign runners were abundant. The peds in the area literally looked like a game of "frogger". The majority of the violators thought they had stopped. Sooo, being the inquisitive type. I rode over to the limit line of the stop sign and parked my motorcycle in the gutter, facing the street, right in line with the limit line of the stop sign. Out of the next 50 cars that came up to the stop sign,, guess how many came to a complete stop???? 100% ! Hmmm,
I wonder why???? After I left and returned to my "perch",, in plain view of motorists btw,, the former pattern returned.

[Junkie]

Regardless of your view on how reasonable the law is, don't bullshit yourself: People speed because they're confident they won't get caught. I'm sure everyone would find the speed limit to be VERY reasonable if they knew the road was monitored by speed cameras.They might be more likely to do the speed limit, but that doesn't mean they would think it was reasonable.

[Alan_Hepburn]

This is just the way the world operates. It's been going on for thousands of years. People will say anything and do anything to get out of being punished. I seriously doubt you haven't pushed the envelope yourself.

I think one of the first things a child learns is the difference between "I broke my toy..." and "My toy broke..."
:teeth

[ptowntsi]

because when I want to go visit someone in So-Cal I don't want to take forever getting there. I don't see it as wrong I see it as I wanna get there without taking forever!- playing a little here...

[ptowntsi]

Can someone explain to me,, just for shits and giggles,, what harm would come to the public by EVERYONE obeying the traffic laws?????

it would take me too long to get to so-cal on I-5. I can't go just 70mph when the road is that flat, straight and the scenery is borrring!! :thumbup

oh yea, and you'd be out of a job :D :D

[OldFatGuy]

if you have so much time to spend in court
you would think that you have time to spend time on the road
so there would be no need to go fast anyways if there is no time issue
so to my calculations it would be cheaper to jsut go the speed limit
based on tickets and gas usage:nerd mmmmmmmmglaven

I have time to spend in court because I work nights. Also, I have a clean driving record and haven't had to pay a ticket in as long as I can remember, so I'm not sure that driving the speed limit would really save me that much money.

And FWIW, I don't drive like an ass, so any ticket I do get is going to be pretty minor. I seriously doubt that I'm a danger to society if I'm doing 75 on the freeway when there's no traffic.

[DucatiHoney]

My partner and I did a "scientific experiment" a while back. I cant remember if I posted about this or not.... We had been working an intersection where stop sign runners were abundant. The peds in the area literally looked like a game of "frogger". The majority of the violators thought they had stopped. Sooo, being the inquisitive type. I rode over to the limit line of the stop sign and parked my motorcycle in the gutter, facing the street, right in line with the limit line of the stop sign. Out of the next 50 cars that came up to the stop sign,, guess how many came to a complete stop???? 100% ! Hmmm,
I wonder why???? After I left and returned to my "perch",, in plain view of motorists btw,, the former pattern returned.

I've read and re-read this several times. I guess it's true what they say about a liberal arts education...cuz mine simply isn't paying off here. :laughing What exactly was the point of your experiment? (And I'm not bein' all sassy here--I'm asking an honest question--not loaded.) :)

[JPM]

I've read and re-read this several times. I guess it's true what they say about a liberal arts education...cuz mine simply isn't paying off here. :laughing What exactly was the point of your experiment? (And I'm not bein' all sassy here--I'm asking an honest question--not loaded.) :)


:wtf

Umm, when the officer is right there at the line where people know they are supposed to stop, and there is a fear of getting a ticket, that 100% of the vehicles stopped properly. When the officer went back to a less conspicuous place the compliance at the stop sign went down.

For those on the short bus, people know what they are supposed to do but some only follow laws because they fear the punishment. If they think they will not be caught, they will do as they please.

[DucatiHoney]

:wtf

Umm, when the officer is right there at the line where people know they are supposed to stop, and there is a fear of getting a ticket, that 100% of the vehicles stopped properly. When the officer went back to a less conspicuous place the compliance at the stop sign went down.

For those on the short bus, people know what they are supposed to do but some only follow laws because they fear the punishment. If they think they will not be caught, they will do as they please.

You can save your ":wtf" and short bus crap for someone else, dude. I was asking an honest question, and one worthy of asking. Go back and re-read his post. If it is indeed what you're saying, then either it was a stupid "experiment" (duh...yeah, of course people are going to stop when they see a cop) or something else was going on at this intersection. It sounds like he normally just kind of hung out at the intersection in plain view, but at no particular spot. Although people saw him, they didn't realize what they were doing until it was demonstrated to them more clearly--like when he actually parked his bike exactly where they were supposed to be stopping. Now if the latter is what he was talking about in his post, then that's a very interesting observation and worthy of further discussion which is why I respectfully asked him to elaborate. I would very much like to know more about the enforcement side of the argument with regards to this type of thing. ...Gotta run--the liddel yellow sub (opps! I mean BUS!) iz heer 2 pick mI dumm butt up...durrr....

[Dion Rides]

All- my post isn't about the LEO having to make people accountable- its about the people themselves and their family/friends holding themselves accountable and taking responsibility (when ya get caught). THAT's what seems to have fallen off the horizon...for too many.

NorCalBUS!

I recently had a sale of a motorcycle gone so bad (I was the seller) that it ended up in Restraining Order court. Kinda on this same subject, the relation being that people feel they are entitled to rights, even if they signed off on a Bill of Sale, etc. In my case, this person did not feel accountable for an AS IS purchase, and soon turned criminal (harrasment, extortion, threats against me, etc.) because of not taking accountability for a purchase. It was finally settled in mediation, but it took a serious toll on me, my darling, my home and business. Anyway...


I gave this a lot of thought over the course of this dispute and I've come to realize that many have been cottled along the way in their lives, especially the younger Generation Y folks, in a world where there are no losers, everybody wins, everybody get's participation awards, parents and educators are arguing with each other instead of cooperating in discipline - and what you get is a sense of entitlement. People have not been taught "how to lose" living in a world where everybody is a winner, no matter what.

For example, cop gives you a ticket and the next thing you know that cop is being threatened to be sued, the media is called, they get harrassed and yelled at - just because somebody just didn't fess up and say, "I messed up, thanks for your time, officer."

The standard of acheivment is set very low these days, and therefore people have not learned how to just be accountable for mistakes. Even a mistake makes you a winner in this day and age.

[silverbelt]

I gave this a lot of thought over the course of this dispute and I've come to realize that many have been cottled along the way in their lives, especially the younger Generation Y folks, in a world where there are no losers, everybody wins, everybody get's participation awards, parents and educators are arguing with each other instead of cooperating in discipline - and what you get is a sense of entitlement. People have not been taught "how to lose" living in a world where everybody is a winner, no matter what.


+1

QFT

[masameet]

I think it's human nature to prefer not to do the right thing consistently. As it seems we are so easily convinced by our rationalizations that a little less rigidity to rules is the American way. And sure, we might shake our heads and laugh at the ones who get caught cheating. And we'll probably slow down some when we see a LEO cruiser or motorcycle within our sights. But I think a good many of us feel pretty smug knowing we're not going to be the ones who get caught. And of course, if we do get pulled over, we'll simply cry, It's not fair!

:laughing

[DucatiHoney]

Dion, your case, although despicable, isn't the norm. I dare say that thousands of transactions go through everyday without incident. Traffic infractions, however, are broken by almost everyone. Although I would agree with some of your points about personal culpability becoming less popular, I don't know how well it applies here.

I think what it comes down to is this: most people are willing to abide by a law if they feel that it is just and for the common good. An example: most people avoid murdering other people. You can pick your reasons for not murdering people willy-nilly: Morality, religion, common sense... Murdering people generally isn't beneficial to most of us, so we avoid doing it and we're OK abiding the laws that are in place to prevent us from killing folks. A lot of traffic laws don't seem to be just or beneficial to a lot of us, hence the reason that most of them are broken by the vast majority of us to a certain extent.

[5MARY4]

You can save your ":wtf" and short bus crap for someone else, dude. I was asking an honest question, and one worthy of asking. Go back and re-read his post. If it is indeed what you're saying, then either it was a stupid "experiment" (duh...yeah, of course people are going to stop when they see a cop) or something else was going on at this intersection. It sounds like he normally just kind of hung out at the intersection in plain view, but at no particular spot. Although people saw him, they didn't realize what they were doing until it was demonstrated to them more clearly--like when he actually parked his bike exactly where they were supposed to be stopping. Now if the latter is what he was talking about in his post, then that's a very interesting observation and worthy of further discussion which is why I respectfully asked him to elaborate. I would very much like to know more about the enforcement side of the argument with regards to this type of thing. ...Gotta run--the liddel yellow sub (opps! I mean BUS!) iz heer 2 pick mI dumm butt up...durrr....

DucatiHoney (Great name BTW):

Yes,, it was the latter. Kind of a study in human nature thing. It's almost automatic to get the "I stopped!!!" or "I thought I stopped" response. I realize that driving, for most, is not the priority. Whatever else it is that the motorist is doing is the priority. Cell phone conversations being #1. It was just an interesting observation to see the motorist realize I was right there enforcing traffic. The instant the motorist saw me,, driving became the priority. Food got put down, phone conversations ended abruptly, seatbelts were fastened, radios were turned down, make-up was put aside, etc. People KNOW how to drive properly, however IMHO, they choose not to for whatever reason they tend to rationalize.

[DucatiHoney]

DucatiHoney (Great name BTW):

Yes,, it was the latter. Kind of a study in human nature thing. It's almost automatic to get the "I stopped!!!" or "I thought I stopped" response. I realize that driving, for most, is not the priority. Whatever else it is that the motorist is doing is the priority. Cell phone conversations being #1. It was just an interesting observation to see the motorist realize I was right there enforcing traffic. The instant the motorist saw me,, driving became the priority. Food got put down, phone conversations ended abruptly, seatbelts were fastened, radios were turned down, make-up was put aside, etc. People KNOW how to drive properly, however IMHO, they choose not to for whatever reason they tend to rationalize.

It seems really obvious when you say it, but it takes a thoughtful and observant person to put things together like you did and go to the trouble to actually test your hypothesis in what seems like an objective way. :thumbup

[xom]

DucatiHoney (Great name BTW):

Yes,, it was the latter. Kind of a study in human nature thing. It's almost automatic to get the "I stopped!!!" or "I thought I stopped" response. I realize that driving, for most, is not the priority. Whatever else it is that the motorist is doing is the priority. Cell phone conversations being #1. It was just an interesting observation to see the motorist realize I was right there enforcing traffic. The instant the motorist saw me,, driving became the priority. Food got put down, phone conversations ended abruptly, seatbelts were fastened, radios were turned down, make-up was put aside, etc. People KNOW how to drive properly, however IMHO, they choose not to for whatever reason they tend to rationalize.

I think a part (not sure how much) is that cars are too easy to operate these days. You can see it starting in the up-market vehicles with night vision displays and active cruise control and self-parking features. This plus the ipod integration, sat radio, bluetooth phone integration helps foster a larger disconnect from the reality of being a multi ton moving metal object with many other multi ton moving metal objects around you.

[NorCalBusa]

I think what it comes down to is this: most people are willing to abide by a law if they feel that it is just and for the common good.

Right on.

The problem is people think they "know", when they really don't (intellectually or tactically). Something along the lines of "I know enough to know there's so much more I don't know" would be the proper view. I think its fair to say the average Joe or Jane don't have a clue about traffic collision factors, avoidance, laws. They have some generalities- but their driving success (defined, say by low accident rate) is mostly that the roads and laws are set for the lowest common denominator, allowing sufficient margins for lots of people to fuck up quite often and yet we all survive. The truth is it mostly works, until someone gets out in the margins.

[silverbelt]

A lot of traffic laws don't seem to be just or beneficial to a lot of us, hence the reason that most of them are broken by the vast majority of us to a certain extent.

Two notable exception are red light runners and DUI. Seems no matter how harsh the punishment (DUI) and what measures are taken against red light runners(cameras at intersections), people still rationalize doing it and no amount of license suspensions, money, or jail time seems to get people to change.

And yet, thousands die every year on these two traffic laws alone.

[sksksks]

I was doing around 28-29 (not even 30) on a 25 zone and a cop was behind me the whole time. After a good minute his lights started flashing and he pulled me over. I didn't get a ticket but did check my DL and just told me that I should slow down a bit. Thanks for the no ticket or much hassle officer but c'mon! this is around 2AM and there was not a single soul on the road... and I had a paper due the next morning that I still hadn't started on. Now every time I sense a cop around, I'm going a good mile under the speed limit.

[DucatiHoney]

Two notable exception are red light runners and DUI. Seems no matter how harsh the punishment (DUI) and what measures are taken against red light runners(cameras at intersections), people still rationalize doing it and no amount of license suspensions, money, or jail time seems to get people to change.

And yet, thousands die every year on these two traffic laws alone.

DUI issues are the result of impaired judgment. I wouldn't lump it together with
red lights. Most people are coherent when they make the decision to run a red light. But that's splitting hairs... I see what you mean.

[5MARY4]

I was doing around 28-29 (not even 30) on a 25 zone and a cop was behind me the whole time. After a good minute his lights started flashing and he pulled me over. I didn't get a ticket but did check my DL and just told me that I should slow down a bit. Thanks for the no ticket or much hassle officer but c'mon! this is around 2AM and there was not a single soul on the road... and I had a paper due the next morning that I still hadn't started on. Now every time I sense a cop around, I'm going a good mile under the speed limit.


There was at least ONE other car on the road,, the one behind you:teeth

I'm with you right up to the point you said "and I had a paper due the next morning that I still hadn't started on." Were you in violation of 22350? Given the facts you state as correct,, probably not. HOWEVER, the overall point of my "experiment" I listed above comes into play. Rationalization. The fact that,, for whatever reason,, you had a paper due the next day (Which I'm sure was not assigned to you at 1:30 am), should play absolutely no part in your "decision" to travel above the posted speed limit. On the other hand, a lack of vehicular traffic, weather, visibility, etc. is fair game. I hope that made sense???

[}Dragon{]

I was doing around 28-29 (not even 30) on a 25 zone and a cop was behind me the whole time. After a good minute his lights started flashing and he pulled me over. I didn't get a ticket but did check my DL and just told me that I should slow down a bit. Thanks for the no ticket or much hassle officer but c'mon! this is around 2AM and there was not a single soul on the road... and I had a paper due the next morning that I still hadn't started on. Now every time I sense a cop around, I'm going a good mile under the speed limit.


There are so many DUIs on the road at 2AM, any violation usually earns you a face to face w/ a LEO.

[JPM]

..........

I think what it comes down to is this: most people are willing to abide by a law if they feel that it is just and for the common good. An example: most people avoid murdering other people. You can pick your reasons for not murdering people willy-nilly: Morality, religion, common sense... Murdering people generally isn't beneficial to most of us, so we avoid doing it and we're OK abiding the laws that are in place to prevent us from killing folks. A lot of traffic laws don't seem to be just or beneficial to a lot of us, hence the reason that most of them are broken by the vast majority of us to a certain extent.

Check the statistics for you city or county and see how many people each year are killed by homicides and how many are killed if traffic collisions (Not including all those injured). In most cities and counties traffic collision death far outweigh homicides.

[ryanisgone]

Wait a second, I have been following this and I am no Jesus or Plato, but I do have an undergrad in Philosophy and a Masters in Theology, minor in Ethics and Sociology...no seriously, if anyone wants to help pay the the Ryan is 90K in debt fund, I have a PayPal account.

Please don't preach about human nature to me or to others. Your cubicle job and your degree in dumbfuckery makes you what?

When I get on my bike and I am on the back country roads and I am flying at 100, 120, 140...I am not going fast unaware or aware of the laws. I want to go fast because I love the howl of the wind. Ever gone sky diving, anyone? The speed is like a drug. It isn't out of disrespect for the Joe Sixpack public and it isn't out of disregard for the law, I do it because I simply want to. It is beautiful because it is a act and cause unto itself. I have a new ZX10R, and given the ability to go 180+...fuck-in-a right I am going to push it. Why? Because I can.

Might I get pulled over. Sure. Have I ever run from a cop? Never. Might I die going that fast? Well I sure as hell won't remember the accident. Might I kill someone on those empty country roads...probably not.

So, please don't preach about attitudes or experiments, about why people do things or why they don't. It isn't about not getting caught. It is about doing something you love. That is it...do what you love. There are consequences for everything you do...might as well do something worth while.

Pax bellum.

PS...to all you motorcycle cops out there escorting the New Years Parade in the rain and wind...I feel for you, and you are far manly men than I.

[5MARY4]

Was that for me?

[ryanisgone]

The SFPD in the rain...sure. I was watching you guys in the rain and wind near Powell. I wanted to bring you guys coffee or a towel or something.

But as far as the whole rant, no. It goes for everyone from the PD's to the dumb fucks who deny guilt when caught red handed. When I get pulled over the officer always asks why I think he pulled me over, and every time I get a ticket, I say ,"Because I was going over the speed limit." I see tickets as an idiot tax. I was an idiot. A willing idiot. And I was taxed for being so.

I dislike irresponsibility...across the board.

But the thrill of raw speed is a drug far more powerful than consequence or the law.

[plumber]

Wait a second, I have been following this and I am no Jesus or Plato, but I do have an undergrad in Philosophy and a Masters in Theology, minor in Ethics and Sociology...no seriously, if anyone wants to help pay the the Ryan is 90K in debt fund, I have a PayPal account.

Please don't preach about human nature to me or to others. Your cubicle job and your degree in dumbfuckery makes you what?


:rofl

Couldn't you man up and finish your underwater basket weaving degree too? I hear it pays more than those other degrees combined.

[5MARY4]

Ryan,, don't take this as a rip,, have you ever thought about going to a track to scratch that itch,, or off road, or hell evn become a LEO? I ask these ? in all honesty. These options may be more fulfilling or at the very least cheaper and a tad less dangerous to yourself or others.

[ryanisgone]

Actually, the rant was mostly for those who say things like "Fucking pigs pulled me over for going 90 on 280. What the fuck!" Those are the guys who make me angry.

But I wanted to also address that whole "why we go fast thing"...which is...we go fast because the power to do so is given to us. Think of it as a whole God gave us Eden and we ate the apple. The apple is the bike, we are Adam and Eve (DucatiHoney) and God is simply that the times I have been pulled over. God caught me. The apple was worth it. God wins.

But the apple was still worth it.

[5MARY4]

I hear ya,, but didn't Eve find shame and clothe herself as a result.. I'd rather not have apples and have naked girls all over the place:teeth

[ryanisgone]

To 5MARY4,

Yes, I actually went as far as doing an interview with the SFPD and taking most of the tests. Then I lost the paperwork. I later found out in the mail that I was in the top 10% of their applicants.

And the track...yes. It is coming up, I rode a YZF600R for a while and it wasn't track worthy, and now with Medusa, the ZX10R, I will be there. But, and I know this sounds ignorant and stupid, but the thrill of street riding for me is...and this is self-incriminating - is being on the freeway and riding past slower cars at an illegal speed, I guess speed is relative...and passing a car moving at 80 while I go 100 makes me smile.

It is funny about the being a LEO idea, I am still thinking about it, but I have so many speeding tickets that I think it will keep me from being a cop. Irony...maybe.

[ryanisgone]

Naked girls are great, and shame...isn't so great, but the apple came from the tree of knowledge, and naked chicks are one thing...but knowledge...that is what makes us great.

Prometheus is still chained to that rock because he gave man the gift of fire (knowledge)...and may Zeus bless him, for his sins he gave us, Pandora, the perfect woman, who unleashed upon mankind every type of misery. I will stick with knowledge, women are fun, and soft and loving...but knowledge...no one can take that from you.

[Dion Rides]

*sigh*

I'm going dirt riding.

*unsubscribe*

[sksksks]

There was at least ONE other car on the road,, the one behind you:teeth

I'm with you right up to the point you said "and I had a paper due the next morning that I still hadn't started on." Were you in violation of 22350? Given the facts you state as correct,, probably not. HOWEVER, the overall point of my "experiment" I listed above comes into play. Rationalization. The fact that,, for whatever reason,, you had a paper due the next day (Which I'm sure was not assigned to you at 1:30 am), should play absolutely no part in your "decision" to travel above the posted speed limit. On the other hand, a lack of vehicular traffic, weather, visibility, etc. is fair game. I hope that made sense???

true true.
the paper was for my criminal justice class. :thumbup
I did do it that night and managed to get a B on it! :cool

[deathbug74]

There are so many DUIs on the road at 2AM, any violation usually earns you a face to face w/ a LEO.

or in some cases, none at all. suddenly, obeying the laws and the traffic signs becomes "acting suspicious".

[serazin]

I hear ya,, but didn't Eve find shame and clothe herself as a result.. I'd rather not have apples and have naked girls all over the place:teeth

But if ya didn't have apple and shame, then the naked girls wouldn't be a thrill. :laughing

[silverbelt]

When I get on my bike and I am on the back country roads and I am flying at 100, 120, 140...I am not going fast unaware or aware of the laws. I want to go fast because I love the howl of the wind. Ever gone sky diving, anyone? The speed is like a drug. It isn't out of disrespect for the Joe Sixpack public and it isn't out of disregard for the law, I do it because I simply want to. It is beautiful because it is a act and cause unto itself. I have a new ZX10R, and given the ability to go 180+...fuck-in-a right I am going to push it. Why? Because I can.


A 10R is at home on the track, not the street. Think about how many trackdays you could buy with the time+money lost if you get caught riding triple digits on the street?

Reno Fernly and T-Hill would be the places to really open it up and at the end of the day, making it home with your drivers license and bike still in your possession. :Party :ride

[ryanisgone]

Yeah, track days are a coming. In fact, I have had CHP officers tell me as they write the ticket, "Take this speed to the track." And yes, the sad fate of it all is that the ticket is more expensive than, take your pick, or all the above, new tires, track fees, track prep, a trip to Mexico.

But to take it back to the original idea behind this thread, I have never had any doubts about the lethality and risks associated with speed and paying the price. In this world of law suits and suing each other and asshatery with irresponsibility I don't want to forget why we ride... For me, I can get to point B from A in a car, but I can get to B from A on a motorcycle and have a great deal more fun.

[scalvert]

The problem is people think they "know", when they really don't (intellectually or tactically). Something along the lines of "I know enough to know there's so much more I don't know" would be the proper view.

And thus we have the fundamental problem with trying to have a government by and for the people. Let people have the vote and pretty soon they get the feeling that the can think for themselves! It's an outrage I tell you!

I think its fair to say the average Joe or Jane don't have a clue about traffic collision factors, avoidance, laws.

It think its also fair to say that the average traffic law was written with little or no attention being paid to collision factors and avoidance. (I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I am acquainted with a few professional traffic engineers, and the things they say about the state of the traffic code...)

They have some generalities- but their driving success (defined, say by low accident rate) is mostly that the roads and laws are set for the lowest common denominator, allowing sufficient margins for lots of people to fuck up quite often and yet we all survive. The truth is it mostly works, until someone gets out in the margins.

It's also fair to say that much of the margins are provided by the drivers themselves by their own habits. We motorcyclists love to be high and mighty about the terrible ways average people drive, as do cops, and the collision of these two groups gets really deep sometimes. But I tell you, when I drive down the road and put on my head for data, not my gut reactions, I can say that **most** people operate their vehicles in a decent manner **most** of the time. The dumb shit that gets pulled is pretty damn crazy, but of any group of 10 drivers, usually 9 of them will be going about their business reasonably well. Are they cutting corners here or there (too loud music, talking on the phone, etc) yes. Do those behaviors have real amortized costs in terms of overall safety? Yes. Do most people have a sense of their own risk envelopes and manage themselves reasonably well? Yes.

I would love to see changes in the way people drive. Things are more dangerous out there than they need to be and people don't take driving as seriously as I think they should. That's why _I_ take it more seriously myself. But viewed as a single system with the cars, roads, cops, and drivers all as moving parts, our highway system actually works pretty well. Keeping that in mind when making blanket statements about the state of human morality would be useful and make the air better around this forum.