Meaning of the Double Yellow Line

[Mstaples]

I know there is a difference between passing a car in the same lane, which is illegal, and lane-sharing as you are passing a car in the same lane, which isn't illegal. I'll have to admit that I'm not exactely sure what the distinction is, but I think I know it when I do it. But I have a question about that double yellow line that is kind of similar this issue.

Does a double yellow line mean "No passing," or "No crossing over"? In a car, in order to pass you have to cross over the line. But that isn't the case with a MC.

[camry_101]

no crossing over or passing, unless the lane is wide enough to laneshare
as far as i know its like a wall :)

[T-1 Thunder]

Don't do it(pass even without crossing yellow) with a single lane in each direction. It's a discretion thing on the cop - so if he wants, he can ticket you for it. If cop is good mood, you may not get the ticket.

[masameet]

So ... how did you answer this question when you took the DMV written test(s)?

[Mstaples]

no crossing over or passing, unless the lane is wide enough to laneshare
as far as i know its like a wall :)

The no crossing I can understand. But the no passing "unless the lane is wide enough..." I don't quite get just yet. Maybe I didn't state the question very well.

Are you saying that passing is OK if there is enough lane to laneshare? Even with a double yellow line? As long as I don't cross over the line?

[Mstaples]

So ... how did you answer this question when you took the DMV written test(s)?

So is that the answer? Whether there is enough room to get around a car by lanesharing or not, it is illegal under any circumstances --i.e., you cannot pass a car on the double yellow side. Lanesharing goes out the window and does not exist when there is a double yellow line?

[masameet]

Solid single, double or double double yellow = no passing or sharing allowed. But people do it. It's a moving violation if a LEO catches you in the act.

The "definitive lane sharing" thread is a sticky at the top of this forum. I think the "passing on a solid yellow (and white)" single and double gets answered there.

[Junkie]

Could you please provide a link to the post in that thread (or a vehicle code) that says that?

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499146&postcount=74 seems to say otherwise, although DY wasn't specified.

[Mstaples]

Could you please provide a link to the post in that thread (or a vehicle code) that says that?

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499146&postcount=74 seems to say otherwise, although DY wasn't specified.

Yah. I went back and reviewed that section of the Forum again (and again... and again...) and I don't really find a very satisfying, difinitive answer. The answer to a lot of these lanesharing things seems to be to try your best to do things that are reasonable and safe and hope the LEO sees it the same way.

[Traq]

Solid single, double or double double yellow = no passing or sharing allowed. But people do it.

People do it because it isn't what you claimed in the first sentence. Double yellow is "do not drive to the left of," it has no bearing on lane sharing.

21460. (a) When double parallel solid lines are in place, no person
driving a vehicle shall drive to the left thereof, except as
permitted in this section.
(b) When the double parallel lines, one of which is broken, are in
place, no person driving a vehicle shall drive to the left thereof,
except as follows:
(1) That the driver on that side of the roadway in which the
broken line is in place may cross over the double line or drive to
the left thereof when overtaking or passing other vehicles.
(2) As provided in Section 21460.5.
(c) Either of the markings as specified in subdivision (a) or (b)
does not prohibit a driver from crossing the marking when (1) turning
to the left at any intersection or into or out of a driveway or
private road, or (2) making a U-turn under the rules governing that
turn, and either of the markings shall be disregarded when authorized
signs have been erected designating offcenter traffic lanes as
permitted under Section 21657.
(d) Raised pavement markers may be used to simulate painted lines
described in this section when the markers are placed in accordance
with standards established by the Department of Transportation.

[Mstaples]

Traq:

Now THAT'S definitive! So the DY doesn't mean do not pass, nor does it mean do not cross. So in fact, ANY time you drive to the left of another vehicle where there is a DY involved, it is illegal.. even though, as stated in the lanesharing thread, there are times when it is obviously and reasonably overlooked by the LEO... as when a car is obviously pulling over to let you pass, or when they might for instance be turning right.

[Traq]

Traq:

Now THAT'S definitive! So the DY doesn't mean do not pass, nor does it mean do not cross. So in fact, ANY time you drive to the left of another vehicle where there is a DY involved, it is illegal.. even though, as stated in the lanesharing thread, there are times when it is obviously and reasonably overlooked by the LEO... as when a car is obviously pulling over to let you pass, or when they might for instance be turning right.

You misunderstood the "drive to the left" bit, it is not driving to the left of another vehicle, but driving to the left of the double lines. You can still overtake a vehicle in the same lane to the left or right if there is sufficient room to do so safely. You just can't drive left of the double or on the shoulder.

But as always, it is up to the discretion of the officer to determine if the manuever is safe or not...they can still cook up a reason to cite you and then it is your burden to prove the cite was incorrect.

[JPM]

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165689

Post #8, first link.

[Traq]

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165689

Post #8, first link.

Except that is an erroneous simplification/interpretation of the letter of the law based on the presumption that there is not enough room for 2 vehicles to occupy the space between the double lines and the fog line.

[Junkie]

To make it a bit more clear that there's room, but other than that I don't think any difference in the law... what if the vehicle you want to pass is another motorcycle?

[JPM]

Except that is an erroneous simplification/interpretation of the letter of the law based on the presumption that there is not enough room for 2 vehicles to occupy the space between the double lines and the fog line.

Then you are not crossing the double yellow line. That’s like worrying about getting a red light ticket for going through a stop sign; it has no relevance. A better question would be do you risk a chance of unsafe passing or something similar, that would be relevant.

[Traq]

Then you are not crossing the double yellow line. That’s like worrying about getting a red light ticket for going through a stop sign; it has no relevance. A better question would be do you risk a chance of unsafe passing or something similar, that would be relevant.

We agree regarding the better question to ask. :p

[JPM]

We agree regarding the better question to ask. :p

:wtf We can't agree. Then I change my opinion of the prior statement! :teeth

[Mstaples]

So... then.... where did we end up? Sounds like it "IS" legal to pass a car on the left when DY is involved as long as there is room and it is safe? In other words, the DY does not mean "Do Not Pass." It means, "Do Not Coss Over Me." And the point about the other vehicle being a MC instead of a car seems like an example of why a simplistic test like, "How did you answer the question on the DMV test?" doesn't work.

[Mstaples]

Then you are not crossing the double yellow line. That’s like worrying about getting a red light ticket for going through a stop sign; it has no relevance. A better question would be do you risk a chance of unsafe passing or something similar, that would be relevant.

I'm willing to accept the responsibility staying on the side of safety. I'm just wondering if I'm going to get a ticket for lanesharing past someone when it is by my estimation safe to do so, but there is a DY line involved...based on a specific law that prohibits my doing this. If there is no law against my lanesharing past someone when a DY line is involved, then it would be reasonable to assume that the only reason I would get a ticket for doing this would be due to a perceived safety issue...and that would be what the ticket would indicate. So in court (hypothetically) the argument would be that the pass was safe, even though there was a DY line. If there is in fact a law against this, then there would be no defense. I went around someone when there was a DY line. Case closed.

[Junkie]

Yep, you could be ticketed for an unsafe pass (if it was), but there is nothing saying you can't pass someone as long as you stay on your side of the DY.

[JPM]

If you or any part of your bike is not over the double yellow lines its lane sharing.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154980

[ctroutnerrun]

I know there is a difference between passing a car in the same lane, which is illegal, and lane-sharing as you are passing a car in the same lane, which isn't illegal. I'll have to admit that I'm not exactely sure what the distinction is, but I think I know it when I do it. But I have a question about that double yellow line that is kind of similar this issue.

Does a double yellow line mean "No passing," or "No crossing over"? In a car, in order to pass you have to cross over the line. But that isn't the case with a MC.

This statement confuses me. I thing you are referring to lanesharing both times but calling it "passing" based on the surrounding environment.

I don't think your understanding the DMV's definition of passing.

To them, it is impossible to pass a vehicle while in the same lane as that vehicle, because they assume you are both cars. So for this next bit, pretend your in a car. Whenever they mention "passing", they mean leaving the lane that you and the other car are in, and going around them in another lane, either one designated for traffic heading in your direction, or using the lane designated for oncoming traffic.

When using extra lanes in your direction, pass on the left, you could get cited for passing on the right. There should be a dotted white line. (Duh)

You can pass using oncoming traffic's lane, but not when the DY's are there, unless it has a broken yellow on your side. Like camry 101 said, consider it like a wall, you cannot even cross a DY to turn down a street/enter a driveway. I noticed they put them in cities alot by fastfood joints, where people cut into the exit instead of pulling forward another 80ft and waiting 30 seconds for a light...:rolleyes

Now lets talk about lanesharing. (Back on the bike)

If you are lanesharing properly, as many have described already, you are not crossing any lines at all, so it doesn't make any difference what kind of lines are around you. The could be razor-spiked triple yellows, just don't cross/touch them, and your ok.:p No where does it say "cannot laneshare while near x". They seem to keep the specifics of lanesharing pretty vague, as MM4L put in his sticky (JPM beat me to the link), it might be give the officers more latitude to interperet if their actions were safe or not.

So to recap, passing= cars, must use other lanes. Lane sharing= motorcycles, "pass" in other lanes, in the same lane, on the right or left, just do it safely. Double yellows= don't cross them. Not for passing, turning, anything. (Oh unless your on one wheel, then it's totally legal):twofinger

[Mstaples]

Nice explanation. Thanks. The fog is lifting.

[antarius]

It's not rocket science people.

If you can lane share safely and without violating another law such as unsafe passing, turning, or changing of lanes... then you should be fine.

The instant you move to the left of the double yellow, you are in violation of CVC 21460(a).

You still need to take into account as to whether or not you will violate the massive amounts of "unsafe <turning, passing, speed, etc. etc. etc>" vehicle code sections that are out there. But 21460(a), so long as you do not cross over the double yellow, would not apply.

Note: I have been wrong before on this forum and I expect it to happen again soon, so keep that in mind. :)

[Mstaples]

Note: I have been wrong before on this forum and I expect it to happen again soon, so keep that in mind. :)

So it if it isn't rocket science, why put in the disclaimer about being right?

I think my original question has been answered --i.e., does the DY line mean "No Passing" or "No Crossing Over"? The consensus is that it means "No Crossing Over" and the word "Passing" isn't technically appropriate.

I think there might be some argument about this word "Passing." One posting that was interesting pointed out that "Passing" refers the way the DMV thinks in terms of cars. In order to pass a car with another car you have to cross the line. But overtaking a car -- you know...where the car is to your right and you could kick it with your foot as you go by -- might better be called something like "Whizing by during lanesharing Maneuvor," instead of "Passing" (which implies crossing the line).

This term "Passing" tends to be confusing at times for us non-rocket scientists. There is some kind of distinction between "Whizing by a car" on your MC that is considered a "Passing" maneuvor, and "Whizing by a car" on your MC that is considered a "Lanesharing" maneuvor... that doesn't have anything to do with crossing over the line. I'll admit that I don't quite understand the difference yet. I've read arguments about this distinction on the Forum. But the implication, if the DY means "No Passing" is that an LEO could pronounce your "Whizing by during lanesharing Maneuvor" as "Passing" and become enraged... if he too thought the DY line meant "No Passing."

I can imagin the discussion with the LEO: First.. the obligatory,"Do you know what the speed limit is here?

"Uh.... 35?"

"Nope. Do you know how fast you were going?

"Uh...Well I just happened to look down at my speedometer when I saw your light come on behind me and... Uh...40-ish?

"Nope. Do you know why I pulled you over?

"Uh... well...."

"That was a double yellow line back there, boy, where you passed that car."

"Well, your honor, technically I didn't really pass that car... I was performing a "Whizing by during lanesharing Maneuvor."

"You gettin smart with me boy?" (unlocking holster) "Put your hands on the tank and give me the key"

"Uh...but your honor... if I put my hands on the tank, how can I give you the key?"

"Ok funny-man...this ain't rocket science...just put your hands on the key and give me the tank... No... wait... damn... I never can keep that straight."

Anyway, I think I got my answer. So thanks for the help guys.

[NorCalBusa]

If you don't "get it", then don't "do it"- just play it safe and stay in line.

[Mstaples]

If you don't "get it", then don't "do it"- just play it safe and stay in line.

Probably good advice.

What I don't get, though, is the difference between passing a car in the same lane (bad), and lanesharing past a car in the same lane (good). Either way or another I'm going to be moving past a car while in the same lane. Since I don't understand the distinction between the two (and maybe I'm wrong and there is no distinction), it's a little hard not to do the bad one.

[Mstaples]

P.S., is that you doing the wheelie on the MC? I was passed by a guy on a MC the other day who said "Hello" (evidently) by popping a wheelie like that while he road past. It's humbling. Every time I think I know what I'm doing on my bike, I get reminded that I am but a small grasshopper not yet ready to leave the temple grounds.

[ctroutnerrun]

I know there is a difference between passing a car in the same lane, which is illegal, and lane-sharing as you are passing a car in the same lane, which isn't illegal.


There is some kind of distinction between "Whizing by a car" on your MC that is considered a "Passing" maneuvor, and "Whizing by a car" on your MC that is considered a "Lanesharing" maneuvor... that doesn't have anything to do with crossing over the line. I'll admit that I don't quite understand the difference yet.


What I don't get, though, is the difference between passing a car in the same lane (bad), and lanesharing past a car in the same lane (good). Either way or another I'm going to be moving past a car while in the same lane. Since I don't understand the distinction between the two (and maybe I'm wrong and there is no distinction), it's a little hard not to do the bad one.
I hope I didn't make this whole "passing" and "lanesharing" thing sound more complex then it really is.

WHEN YOU LANESHARE you are PASSING a car (hopefully this is a big duh), unless your hanging out right next to the car for some odd reason (unsafe). So it's not like your doing one and not the other. When passing someone that's in the same lane as you, you are lanesharing (sharing a lane= lanesharing:p) Obviously you can pass someone while on a motorcycle without lanesharing, that's just normal passing, which has to involve another lane. So no distinction as far as I know.


"That was a double yellow line back there, boy, where you passed that car."


The only way I could see this happening is if you crossed the DY to pass. (not actually lanesharing if you leave the lane!)

It's seems like your viewing the entire road as a "no passing area" if DY's are present, like, "NO passing while in the double-yellow line zone", or something like that. This is wrong. re-read traq's posts (#10 & #12)

If, for some odd reason, this situation you put above actually happened, politely ask the officer what CVC you violated. As I put in my other post, as far as I know there are no laws saying you cannot laneshare near (anything).Past DY's, bus stops, schools, police crusiers, I laneshare wherever and whenever possible, just be safe, as put before the officer could cite you for following to closely, unsafe lane change, unsafe passing, ect.

If you are truly LANESHARING to PASS someone, you have not changed lanes, and have not crossed the DY's.

Hope this helps.

:ride Ride safe

P.S. For the most part, I only laneshare when there are two lanes of traffic in my direction, and I can safely go between them (heavy traffic, stoplight, ect). I think an officer would be much more likely to pull you over if your are lanesharing on a single-lane road, especially if is on the left, right next to oncoming traffic. (Who would want to do that anyways? :wtf) He wouldn't write you up for lanesharing, but possibly unsafe passing. My :2cents

[NorCalBusa]

P.S., is that you doing the wheelie on the MC? I was passed by a guy on a MC the other day who said "Hello" (evidently) by popping a wheelie like that while he road past. It's humbling. Every time I think I know what I'm doing on my bike, I get reminded that I am but a small grasshopper not yet ready to leave the temple grounds.

Professional rider, closed course. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.:thumbup

[NorCalBusa]

If you or any part of your bike is not over the double yellow lines its lane sharing.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154980

No shit? "Any part of me or the bike"? And all along I thought if I kept the tires on one side I was good to go...

[Mstaples]

Yes, that helps quite a bit. Now just one itsy-bitsy last question: Since moving around someone without crossing out of the lane we are both in is always lanesharing and not "Passing," then... if I move around someone on the right, and I don't cross over the fog line, I should never expect to see a ticket for "Passing on the Right." Correct? Because I'm not "Passing." I'm "Lanesharing."

[Junkie]

it is passing. if there are signs that say "no passing next 20 miles" like there are on 25 between gilroy and hollister, you can be ticketed for violating them even if you stay on your side of the line.

and I don't believe there's a VC against passing on the right.

[beaker]

it is passing. if there are signs that say "no passing next 20 miles" like there are on 25 between gilroy and hollister, you can be ticketed for violating them even if you stay on your side of the line.

and I don't believe there's a VC against passing on the right.

There's two!

21754. The driver of a motor vehicle may overtake and pass to the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(a) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.

(b) Upon a highway within a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in the direction of travel.

(c) Upon any highway outside of a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width and clearly marked for two or more lines of moving traffic in the direction of travel.

(d) Upon a one-way street.

(e) Upon a highway divided into two roadways where traffic is restricted to one direction upon each of such roadways.

The provisions of this section shall not relieve the driver of a slow moving vehicle from the duty to drive as closely as practicable to the right hand edge of the roadway.


21755. The driver of a motor vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. In no event shall such movement be made by driving off the paved or main-traveled portion of the roadway.

[Mstaples]

Ah yes, but according to the logic of the previous posting... driving your motorcycle by a car on it's right, without going over the fog line, is not "Passing" it is "Lanesharing." If this is true, then none of your quoted vehicle code is relative.

It's these little tidbits that are at the bottom of asking about the difference between "Passing" and "Lanesharing" or "No-Passing" versus "No-Crossing" (in the case of the DY line).

On the surface, it all seems so clear and easy. But if what was said about there being no "Passing" unless you are crossing over the line (either the line to your left or your right), then you are not passing when you are passing... you are lanesharing when you are passing.

[JPM]

No shit? "Any part of me or the bike"? And all along I thought if I kept the tires on one side I was good to go...

It's kinda a common sense thing also. Hurts when your elbow hanging over the line gets smacked by a truck mirror coming the other way at 50+ :ride

[Mstaples]

For me, this Forum creates a newfound respect for the positions LEO's are in with regard to the nuances of many laws. What constitutes a "Pass," or a "Full Stop" (e.g., both feet touching the ground, one foot touching the ground... balancing...), what are the subtle meanings of this line or that line...and how significant is that meaning in the real world? It obviously isn't always all that black or white, even when you have a vehicle code to look at. And yet, they have to take action based on their understanding, and I'm assuming that in order to live with themselves at all, or act without hesitation, they have to feel like it's the "right" action. It's pretty impressive, if you ask me. And it can't resolve into knowing only rules and regulations, many of which are only clear on the surface.

[Mstaples]

NorCalBusa:

Do you have to trash a few bikes before you get that wheelie down? I'm a downhill mountain bike rider and learning to do drops has trashed an awfully lot of forks, wheels, and rear shocks. On U-tube there are pictures of guys smashing up their bikes as they practice doing wheelies. I personally do not have a wheelie gene, so I'm not going to be risking my MC. What do you do? Start off popping wheels on a 50cc dirt bike and work your way up?

[Junkie]

it's difficult to do much damage to a motorcycle coming down hard from a wheelie as long as the forks are held straight and you don't crash. you might need to replace fork seals, but they're cheap.

[ctroutnerrun]

Ok, now I'm a little confused.:laughing

Yes, that helps quite a bit. Now just one itsy-bitsy last question: Since moving around someone without crossing out of the lane we are both in is always lanesharing and not "Passing," then... if I move around someone on the right, and I don't cross over the fog line, I should never expect to see a ticket for "Passing on the Right." Correct? Because I'm not "Passing." I'm "Lanesharing."

it is passing. if there are signs that say "no passing next 20 miles" like there are on 25 between gilroy and hollister, you can be ticketed for violating them even if you stay on your side of the line.


Are you sure? This sounds like the situation the OP thought the DY's created.

Not familiar with that strech of road, I assume that sign was put up in an area where you would have to use oncoming traffic's lane to do so, and they deemed that area unsafe. But still, if the traffic was slow or stopped, I am under the impression that you would be ok to laneshare there, on either side of vehicles, because when you are overtaking another vehicle by lanesharing, you are not passing in the unsafe manner that the sign was trying to prevent. But really, :dunno

So I guess if the "No passing" sign included lanesharing, which would also make sense to me, you'd probably get busted. But if not, if would still be a high risk, because of the single lane, which is still legal to laneshare in, but leaves you with less of a safety margin which an officer could possibly see as unsafe. It really comes down to the officer involved. Ask yourself before lanesharing, "Would I do this manuver if I had my grandma on the bike with me? Girlfriend, sister, son, daughter, ect?" Think safety.

I did find this though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4qnVKUjLU

For me, this Forum creates a newfound respect for the positions LEO's are in with regard to the nuances of many laws. What constitutes a "Pass," or a "Full Stop" (e.g., both feet touching the ground, one foot touching the ground... balancing...), what are the subtle meanings of this line or that line...and how significant is that meaning in the real world? It obviously isn't always all that black or white, even when you have a vehicle code to look at. And yet, they have to take action based on their understanding, and I'm assuming that in order to live with themselves at all, or act without hesitation, they have to feel like it's the "right" action. It's pretty impressive, if you ask me. And it can't resolve into knowing only rules and regulations, many of which are only clear on the surface.

:thumbup They have hard jobs, and deserve alot more credit and appreciation then they get. :applause

:ride Ride Safe

[Junkie]

Lanesharing IS passing. Double yellow lines do NOT forbid passing, they forbid crossing them to pass.

[JPM]

Lanesharing IS passing. Double yellow lines do NOT forbid passing, they forbid crossing them to pass.

Actually lane sharing is when two vehicles occupy the same lane in the same direction going the same speed; like two motorcycles ride side-by-side. What is commonly called "lanesharing" (Passing through rows of slow or stopped traffic) is technically passing but overlooked if done safely. That’s why when a ticket is issued it’s usually for unsafe passing unless the passing is done under one of the codes that specifically prohibit it.

Double yellow lines do NOT forbid passing, they forbid crossing them to pass.
Correct :thumbup

[NorCalBusa]

NorCalBusa:

Do you have to trash a few bikes before you get that wheelie down? I'm a downhill mountain bike rider and learning to do drops has trashed an awfully lot of forks, wheels, and rear shocks. On U-tube there are pictures of guys smashing up their bikes as they practice doing wheelies. I personally do not have a wheelie gene, so I'm not going to be risking my MC. What do you do? Start off popping wheels on a 50cc dirt bike and work your way up?

Not at all- part of lofting a good wheelie, is setting it down nicely! :thumbup