Improving the Rider Over the Bike First, or Vice Versa? Simultaneously?

[sinncere]

This is a long one.

Without discrediting the notion of getting more performance-oriented tires for the track especially as you push yourself and your bike more, how detrimental is it for me to stick with regular street tires still at this point?

A large part of me as a rider believes in adapting to the bike and the riding condition, basically riding and working with what you got. Part of the reason for this mentality too is that I wanted to really feel the changes "upgrades" would make once I have them done. An example was the suspension; I did three trackdays with my ZX before I ever had the suspension dialed in for myself. Despite having adapted to the way the bike felt and never having any problems with it prior, I really felt the change the suspension brought about when I had it dialed, easily allowing me to shave off 5 seconds from my laps. The suspension change was everything everyone made it out to be, but would I have really noticed/appreciated it as much as I did had I not been familiar with how the bike ran prior to it?

Now with the tires, I run a pair of Bridgestone BT020's, sport-touring tires. They came with the ZX when I bought it from its 3rd owner almost a year ago, and they've seen all four of my trackdays in total. I was apprehensive about them just before my first trackday last October, but ever since I got the go ahead from Z2 and Brian at Motoshoes to use them, I never really looked back and never really thought about replacing them with performance tires. They've seen cold temperatures and even wet conditions on the track, and they never really made me lose confidence on the grip (the only time the tires slipped was when it was wet, and even then, it wasn't an "oh shit" moment). With that said, I'm aware that if they can continually provide the level of performance they do for every trackday wherein I push myself and the bike, I can only imagine what proper performance tires can do for me.

But then it goes back to my penchant for improving the rider first and working my way out. The idea that if I can ride the way I ride with what little I have, it makes me excited to think about what I can do when I have more. But that notion just urges me to stick with what I have and keep at it until I get to that point when I've done all I can do as the rider, and to move on it might be time to improve the bike next. I know that I can find myself in a precarious situation if I keep at it, but I'm past the point of getting comfortable being on the track and am now more serious about improving and improving and improving, accepting the risks that I gladly take.

I smiled when my fourth trackday started wet with some heavy drizzle throughout, cause I thought it was a great opportunity to improve my riding by really forcing me to be as smooth and precise as I can be on my bike, which is also exactly what I think of whenever I remind myself the kind of tires I'm running.

So the question that remains is: Do I keep at it with what I have to continually improve myself as a rider? Or am I just past the point of rationality and only causing myself more potential harm than benefit?

I have another trackday planned in May where I might dabble in the B group, but I'm still substantially divided between leaving the tires on the bike, or moving on to more performance-oriented tires. It's not a matter of cost, just a matter of personal principle.

Lay it on me.

P.S. It's way past my bed time, so if I don't make any sense, kindly point it out. kthanxbye :teeth

[afm199]

You related to Feanor?

You can stick with street tires at a C pace. I am all for riders learning their bike and their tires. At a certain point you will need more track oriented tires. Don't hesitate to install them if you continue to pick up pace. A crash is always discouraging.

[redline]

I'm not familiar with how that brand of street tires performs. But, I use Michelin Pilot Powers (street tires, not "race" version) and they work fine in the B group.

No matter what tire you use, you want to keep below the limit of traction (you don't want to slide out). If you do your laps focusing on repeatable turn-in point, apex and good corner speed, you will have developed skills that will work with better tires and then you just need to find the limits of those tires. But, really, I think average trackday goers (meaning average "B" & "C" group riders) don't ride the tires to their limits. Almost no one in B/C is "spinning up" the tire on the exits or lifting the rear wheel with the front tire howling while entering the turn --myself included. My goal is to stay safely within the limit of traction and go to work the next day uninjured and hopefully gain better skills.

[Daredevil]

i do it for more peace of mind. im sure i'd be fine on some street tires, but to know there is that extra grip makes me feel better inside. my friend was running pirelli street tires (the 3 compound diablo's or whatever) and on his first track day; he was sliding his tires like nuts. and he was STILL running slower than me (im slow). dave moss mentioned to him he should probably upgrade to some better tires. im glad i was already using PR's .

i think you should upgrade before you need it. if you start to get too fast on street tires, the only way you are going to find that out is the hard way, the hard concrete way if you catch my drift.
but it does get to a point, i don't think i need a set of brembo calipers, or full ohlins, though i DID notice a HUGE difference when i put my ohlins rear on.

it goes hand in hand though i think as well. with New components help you stay stable, but at the same time they also help you become faster, which heightens your chance of tucking it. I'm all for upgrades, but at the same time, if it were my choice to purchase some Wave rotors for my bike or do a track day or two, i'd choose the track day. i don't have the money to do both :]

[Archimedes]

All depends on your lap times. From your that Laguna video you posted, it would suggest you're in the 2:05-2:10 range, which is C group pace. You can easily run street tires at that pace, and actually really experienced riders can run much quicker on street tires.

However, for us mortals I think DOT race tires are a wise investment once you start running a solid B group pace. The first time I felt a 207GP come in on the track and realized how much grip was there was an eye opening experience for me. After my accident I took 7 years off and just got back on 208s. I haven't yet got my confidence back to run hard like I used to, but I turned a 1:53 on them last Wednesday (3rd day back on a bike) that I would probably not have been comfortable doing on street tires. I'm sure street tires would have been capable in the hands of a better rider, but knowing I have that extra grip puts me at ease (funny how age changes us). I think if your goal is to run quicker laps, DOT race tires are a must.

[Ratters]

I used stock Pilot Powers through a mid B group pace without any problems. Any faster than that and you'd really want dot race tires. Hell, when i make it back to the track I'm gonna run nothing but slicks no matter what my pace is. :teeth

[sinncere]

Hey, y'all caught my drift! :thumbup

Currently my goal is to turn in faster times, but not for the sake of bragging rights. Because I've been focused on nothing but improving my form/lines/use of reference points/etc. from the get-go, I've been attributing my ability to run a quicker pace than the last to my improving as a rider. (Although that 5-second difference between the suspension work is a testament in itself :teeth)

I already have the Diablo Corsa III's in my mind as the tire of choice once I've decided to swap, but I just wonder if it's nigh time or not yet. Like someone has already mentioned, I've heard it before that even experienced riders can ride fast on the track on regular street tires. So if the sole intent is to be a better and/or experienced rider, can I continually improve myself with "stock" equipment, or would I hit a plateau until I properly equip myself?

Looks like the general consensus is the latter.

[sinncere]

i do it for more peace of mind. im sure i'd be fine on some street tires, but to know there is that extra grip makes me feel better inside. my friend was running pirelli street tires (the 3 compound diablo's or whatever) and on his first track day; he was sliding his tires like nuts. and he was STILL running slower than me (im slow). dave moss mentioned to him he should probably upgrade to some better tires. im glad i was already using PR's .

I can totally understand that, especially given your friend's experience. If it happened to me, an upgrade for more grip would've happened right in the same session.

The thing though is that the tires have not lost grip for me (yet?), not even for a nano-moment, and the only time they did was when the track was wet (which of course I attributed to track being wet). I've never had the rear spin on me (maybe I gotta pin the throttle harder and shave off more seconds! :teeth), or any part of the bike lift at any point that I'm running the track. The somehow tells me that I'm not pushing them beyond their limits and/or they're working properly despite my attempt at running harder and harder after each lap/session.

P.S. I'm switching to the Corsa III's on my next trackday. TrplGrl just schooled me. :teeth

[Archimedes]

I can totally understand that, especially given your friend's experience. If it happened to me, an upgrade for more grip would've happened right in the same session.

The thing though is that the tires have not lost grip for me (yet?), not even for a nano-moment, [/I]

But at the speeds you're running right now, no decent street tire is going to slip, so I wouldn't use your experience to date as good data. Once you try to pick those speeds up, you'll start to notice. My concern with street tires is not spinning the back, it's losing the front on corner entry if I'm in too hot. A sticky DOT tire will save my a$$ at times when I'm not convinced a street tire would.

And (IMO) it's not just whether the tire is spinning/slipping or not. It is the feel you have with a race tire that is in cycle.

[pr0phet00]

But at the speeds you're running right now, no decent street tire is going to slip, so I wouldn't use your experience to date as good data. Once you try to pick those speeds up, you'll start to notice. My concern with street tires is not spinning the back, it's losing the front on corner entry if I'm in too hot. A sticky DOT tire will save my a$$ at times when I'm not convinced a street tire would.

And (IMO) it's not just whether the tire is spinning/slipping or not. It is the feel you have with a race tire that is in cycle.

+eleventybillion:thumbup

For you pilot power trackday enthusiasts be warned a 'group' pace is not a good indicator of how well a street tire will perform. Once you start getting into say -2:05 at T-hill you will experience an unplanned abrupt front end tucks on the PP2ct. Street tires for the street and DOT races for the track. If after a few track days you still feel compelled to ride sportbikes on the street keep your street tires and be dilligent at the track knowing you may exceed the performance specs. :cool

[lokisdog]

I can tell you this, if you wind up on your head at a trackday and take me out as well, and I ask what happened, and you respond "I was testing the limits of my street tires" you'll probably earn a smack upside the head. :teeth

In other words, you need to think about the bigger picture and others as well as yourself

Seriously, if you are trying to learn and improve you first need a solid platform on which to do so. While you are learning to ride around the limitations of a bike that is not setup well or has tires etc that you do not have full confidence in, you might learn some positives but also are learning some bad habits that you will need to un-learn later. In addition, the time you spend learning to ride on sub-par machinery could be delaying your learning curve.

Imagine for example you have been doing a few trackdays, maybe attend a school or just work with an instructor for a session and you have a breakthrough. You then go out and override your tires and land on your head. Not very fun, and I've seen it many times.

As a general rule, IMO the bike should always be better and more capable than you. That headroom provides you with a safety margin you need out there, no matter where you are on the learning curve.

Track tires act and feel different, and as they go off they act different than street tires. I've picked up way too many people out of the weeds who pushed street tires past their limit. You don't have to spend a lot of money on the bike but at a minimum get the suspension, ergonomics and fueling right for track riding. Then put on tires that are suited to the task at hand so you can focus on building a solid riding skills foundation.

Specifically on tires, you don't need slicks or a set of 16.5's on forged mag wheels. But you should get tires that are designed with a bias towards track use. Lots of good DOT, streetable tires in that category, I'll leave that choice up to you, but again note the words "a bias towards track riding" Not only for your safety and piece of mind but for the rest of us as well.

[sinncere]

I can tell you this, if you wind up on your head at a trackday and take me out as well, and I ask what happened, and you respond "I was testing the limits of my street tires" you'll probably earn a smack upside the head. :teeth

I won't. I'll lie. :teeth

Thanks for that very solid argument. :thumbup.

[billswim]

I can understand your argument but allow me to put tires into a different perspective. I equate tires with safety equipment. After all, they are your first line of defense when it comes to contact with the pavement. Do you ride with the latest safety gear? Why not ride with the latest/greatest tire? The worst situation I can imagine is you or someone you hit is in the hospital and you can't rule out the possibility that better tires could have prevented the whole unpleasant situation.

For me I only run the latest slicks and I run them for three track days. That's it. $300 is way too little not to spend to not have to worry about your tires Hell, if I had the funds, I'd have new tires every day.

[pr0phet00]

I can understand your argument but allow me to put tires into a different perspective. I equate tires with safety equipment. After all, they are your first line of defense when it comes to contact with the pavement. Do you ride with the latest safety gear? Why not ride with the latest/greatest tire? The worst situation I can imagine is you or someone you hit is in the hospital and you can't rule out the possibility that better tires could have prevented the whole unpleasant situation.

For me I only run the latest slicks and I run them for three track days. That's it. $300 is way too little not to spend to not have to worry about your tires Hell, if I had the funds, I'd have new tires every day.

Don't forget, the same reasons street tires don't work at the track, DOT races and slicks don't work on the street. Biggest reason is type of asphalt and you never really push the tires enough on the street for optimal operating temps. This combined with the asphalt type could put you in the weeds or worse. The two types of tires are mutually exclusive of one another as far as performance in their respective domains. In other words use track tires at the track and street tires on the street.:cool

[billswim]

Don't forget, the same reasons street tires don't work at the track, DOT races and slicks don't work on the street. Biggest reason is type of asphalt and you never really push the tires enough on the street for optimal operating temps. This combined with the asphalt type could put you in the weeds or worse. The two types of tires are mutually exclusive of one another as far as performance in their respective domains. In other words use track tires at the track and street tires on the street.:cool


Absolutely. I take it one step further. I use a track BIKE for the track and a street bike for the street.

[marcg]

So if the sole intent is to be a better and/or experienced rider, can I continually improve myself with "stock" equipment, or would I hit a plateau until I properly equip myself?

Might be more of a cliff than a plateau if the rest of your ability and equipment suddenly surpasses your tire grip.

If you're riding a mid-sized bike at a B/C group pace, certain street tires may be adequate but I'd consider the BT-020 too much towards the "touring" end of the sport-touring equation. I've gone through 3 or 4 sets on my commuter bike. They're great in rain and have decent grip for a medium-to-high mileage tire, but even by street standards they're not that sticky.

You might try something like the BT-012 or BT-014 if you like the Bridgestones or Pilot Powers, all street tires but much better grip than the BT-020's while still allowing you to experiment with traction. You'll also find that these tires have a more "triangular" cross section than the BT-020's which will make the bike turn in more quickly.

[Razor]

If you're riding a mid-sized bike at a B/C group pace, certain street tires may be adequate but I'd consider the BT-020 too much towards the "touring" end of the sport-touring equation.

+1. Get Pilot Powers, Dunlop Qualifiers, Metzeler M3's, or whatever the Bridgestone equivalents are (BT-014 I think) and at least have sticky street/light track tires. You'll be amazed how sticky they are. Then when you go to DOT race tires, you'll be amazed how sticky those are.

A good rider can ride poor equipment fast, but for the rest of us, it just reduces your margin for error.

You don't need quickshifters, traction control, ohlins R&T forks, but at least get some decent tires.

[yoda]

Just for reference, a rider who insisted running BT020 on his bike crashed at T-hill running 2:15s.

[sinncere]

Just for reference, a rider who insisted running BT020 on his bike crashed at T-hill running 2:15s.

Because of the tires?

[yoda]

yep...gave out.

[Daredevil]

did he tuck the front or did he slide out the rear yoda?

[yoda]

I honestly can't answer that. All I know is that he lowsided pretty hard. I never saw him again after his incident and what's sad is that he seems to be a good rider. My experience with street tires(Metzler M1) on the track is kinda like a double edge sword. The tires will stick but when you run them all day(open track) like I did that time, it will let go without warning. Because of that experience, I now run slicks. Is it an overkill for my slow ass? Oh hell yeah! I like my equipment better than my skills. That way, if I go down, I have no excuse and can't blame anything but myself.

[Daredevil]

ya man i'm with ya.


i just picked up some take off's from a local racer. i got a couple sets of PR's. he runs 56's or so at t-hill, and he will run a set of tires for 3 sessions, then one race. after that he marks them a take off and sells em for dirt. i figure with my 2.17's i'll be fine with something with only 4 sessions are on. his mentality behind the whole thing is "its cheaper to buy a set of tires, than to wreck and replace bike parts, when you get going quick, it only takes a little bit to get a whole lot of damage"

im slow, but i would rather have some good sticky tires to help me hold myself upright. remember, you are constantly battling against gravity :)

[yoda]

Yeah...take off race tires from a fast guy is way better than street tires.

[dubels]

Get your suspension set up and some tires you have confidence in and just enjoy your trackdays. I plan to invest a lot more into track schools than on aftermarket parts.

[Z3n]

Alright, here's another newish track rider's opinion on this debate:

I have run 7 trackdays, 4 of which have been in the last year on my SV. I've been riding for 3 years, around 80k or so miles, across 8 different bikes. I was lucky enough to find some good teachers who really helped me pick up speed and be a (relatively ;) ) safe, responsible rider.

I have run on the track: Pilot Race H2s (ZX6E), Pirelli SC2's(SV), Dunlop Qualifiers(SV), Pilot Powers(ZX-6E), Corsa 3's(929), and Pilot Roads(Friend's SV).

First time I was out on the track was with a bone stock ZX-6E, horribly soft suspension, running Race H2's. I only got 2 sessions before my engine blew. Same story at my second trackday, except i blew my engine 2 days before i made it to the track, so i was on a friend's upgraded E and another friend's stock SV with pilot roads. Even at my pace at the time (probably around a 2:25-30 at Buttonwillow), by the end of a session on the SV, the roads were starting to loosen up. Not in a bad way, but i could tell the tires had had enough and were going to be bad news soon. The pilot powers on my friend's E held up just fine without any issues.

I ran the Corsa 3's at streets on my 929(excellent suspension setup by dave moss) at the Reg Pridmore Class. No spinning, ever. I got them to get a little numb on the street, enough that i bumped the tires up a couple of PSI because they were getting overly hot and torn up. Even so, they gave up the ghost in a mangeable way that i could pick up. I was probably turning around 1:40's at streets. A group in the CLASS, so B group pace elsewhere. I was running towards the front of that group.

On my SV at streets i ran a 1:35 on qualifiers. No spinning, again. Tires showed good wear, i abused the suspension a fair bit, but the tires were still good. B group with take it 2 the track, I was running towards the front.

Buttonwillow: First trackday was run on qualifiers. I was getting some spin out of some of the corners, and almost highsided on the last session of the day coming out of turn one. Started the day at 2:20's, ended the day at 2:12's. I was pretty sure i had a better time in me, but after almost getting tossed off during the last session of the day, i just didn't feel like pushing for a better lap time. B+ pace.

Coming to my 2nd day, i discovered that i had a huge gouge in my front qualifier, so i dropped 430$ on a set of SC2's (thanks brian!). Over the course of the day i dropped another 7+ seconds (beacon went down after lunch). I finished the day running somewhere in the 2:04 or so range. I also moved from the B group to the A group midway through the day at the recommendations of their instructors.

The difference between the qualifiers and the supercorsa sc2's is astounding, though. Whereas the qualifiers would occasionally run for the hills on corner exit when combined with a lot of throttle and some bumps, the SC2s simply stick. I had problems grounding out pegs long before i ran out of grip on the corners. The tires are absolutely astoundingly good. My only complaint with the dunlops was that when they went off they went off quickly and i had a hard time determining when they were going to start sliding or not. The SC2's offered amazing feedback and really helped me pick up more time. I again, had a couple of moments, but the tires, rather than being a liability in these situations, stepped up and helped bail me out. I had a moment where someone cut in front of me and I pulled a stoppie combined with locking the front to avoid asspacking him, and the tires came back with nary a wiggle when i got off the brakes. Qualifiers would have probably dumped me on my ass there, the SC2's simply slapped me on the wrist for getting to eager on the brakes too quickly.

There are a lot of people out there with a lot more riding experience than me. But IMO you really owe it to yourself to give better tires a shot. Modern tires are really damn good, and can take a lot of abuse, even in ST form. But modern tires that are designed for track use offer mind boggling amounts of grip and feedback, and are really worth every cent you dump into them. I didn't learn a lot from running lower level tires, because the dunlops went a little unexpectedly when it came to sliding.

I wrote all of this in hopes that you could see how i have been progressing and perhaps it can help you figure out where the tires became a liability rather than an asset to improving. Just because someone else can ride a bike/tire faster than you can doesn't mean that you have the means or the skill to try to do that. It's really a horrible idea to set a baseline of performance based off of some other rider with years of riding/racing experience pulling a faster lap time.

[rapidrobbie]

I wouldn't go with aDOT race tire first.You will be better off on a street/trackday tire for now,they tend to work better over a wider temp range.Dot race tires have to be in their temperature range to work correctly, if you are not getting them hot enough,they don't work very well,even on a behemoth like the ZX 7...Robbie

[sinncere]

On the quest now to try different tires in my coming trackdays, and I'm starting off on a pair of take off Dunlop 208GP's I picked up from another BARFer. Next trackday is on May 7th at Infineon, and I'm pretty excited to see how I'll be running after the swap. Off the bat I noticed the difference between the Dunlops and the Bridgestone, seeing a more triangulated profile on the GP's compared to the very rounded BT020, and I can't wait to see how much quicker the GP's would allow me to turn the bike.