Rider's Description of Thunderhill

[theSteveCo]

Trying my hand at a "Mr Crash" style post... :D

Turn 1:

Coming off the front straight you carry an awful lot of speed into this high-speed left hander. Moderate braking just after passing the pits will slow you enough to lay it over and crack the throttle back open. As you clip the apex you can get back hard on the gas and start standing it up as you swing toward the outside of the track. Crest the small hill and enter...

Turn 2:

This one's a long sweeping left. Roll off the throttle a tad at the entrance and stay to the outside and get leaned over. Hold your line toward the outside and gradually increase your lean. About 1/2 way into the turn you should be arcing in toward the candy-striping... sweep the dust off it w/ your knee as you get back hard on the throttle. Drift back to the outside as you stand up, get back over to the left side of the track for...

Turn 3:

The first right-hander is another sweeper, but it's off camber and has a tricky line. Ride the left side of the track, let off the gas just before you crest the hill just in time to see the turn. Stay to the outside and gradually creep in as you apply more throttle. Once again a late apex will have you scraping your right puck just over the striping. Don't linger too long after the apex as you need to flick the bike back down to the left for...

Turn 4:

A bit more than a kink, covering about 45 degrees (it seems) this turn is right after the exit of 3, interconnecting the two. Running wide in 3 would destroy your line for 4. You're just starting to climb again right at the middle of the turn so the added g-force aids you in really attacking the turn. Although you might like to release the throttle for the setup you should get right back on it for maximum cornering clearance. Stay on the gas as you right the bike, kinking just a bit to the right, heading dramatically uphill into...

Turn 5:

aka: The Cyclone. The turn is broken into two pieces; 5a and 5b. 5a is completely blind left at the peak of the hill. The inside berm seems enormous, and blocks any view of the dropping left-hander as you approach. You'll need to grab some brake coming into this one, keep your approach way over to the right side of the track, mentally project a point about 5 feet beyond the visible berm, aim for it, and commit yourself into the turn. No sooner than you reach the peak of the hill, which is also the apex of the turn, you'll see 5b bearing off to the right. Stay a bit wide here as well (a benefit of early-apexing 5a), put your knee on the floor, and roll on the gas. There's a bit of an unsettling bump about 1/3 of the way through this turn so don't overcommit the lean just yet. Once past it you can run wide open, clipping the right side and setting yourself up for...

Turn 6:

A nice predictable left-hander with a bit more margin for turn-in error than the previous turns. Run this one hard when you're comfortable with it. =) It has a slight uphill transition through it that allows for a bit more bite, but levels off near the end so don't be at the limit of traction as you near the end. You're not done w/ the lean, though...

Turn 7:

Is a long continuing left. Keep your butt cheek off the saddle and hold the throttle WTFO. The combination of acceleration and cornering forces through 7 and into 8 are quite exhilerating. Keep leaned over as you skim the inside of the track, drift back out and set yourself up for...

Turn 8:

Another "kink" in the track, but this one has the candy striping to help you line yourself up since you can, in theory, keep the gas on full through 7 and 8. It's deceiving at first, but it can be taken at very high speed if your line is good. You're running uphill again now (since just before the turn's apex) and barreling full-tilt into...

Turn 9:

Remember that lever over there by the throttle? You'll need it coming into this tight left-hander. Grab a good sized handfull of brake as you approach 9, setting up on the far right side of the track. You're going uphill so you can squeeze harder than you normally would, and you should. Get off the inside of the bike, lay it over, squeeze the throttle, clip the inside of the turn (might consider keeping your knee up for this one, the berm is pretty high) and enjoy the view as you are presented with a scenic view of the paddock and large portions of the track... you won't, however, see the track immediately in front of you as it drops downhill at an alarming rate. It's probably not much steeper than the back of the Cyclone, but you're moving quite a bit faster. Line up with the port-a-potty on the horizon, open the throttle all the way up, and start looking for the track. Your front wheel will probably lift a bit once you get used to this particular turn. Roll down the hill hard on the gas to get yourself to...

Turn 10:

Ed's turn. It's a sharp left, slightly downhill to complicate things. Remember how nice it was braking uphill into 9? No such luck here, you just ran full-throttle downhill into this one and your brakes are going to suck.. brake EARLY as not to pick the rear wheel up and end your session. Set up way outside (on the right), finish braking, lean the bike over, crack the throttle, clip the apex, and get back on the gas to...

Turn 11:

Which, I'm pleased to share, is another uphill braking turn. I actually found that trail-braking this one works quite nicely (as did 3, I just forgot to mention it). Beware, however, the hill once again levels off right at the apex and the turn is tighter than 10. I dragged an awful lot of metal on this turn trying to find the right line. Why? Because it's tight and because a bad line will shoot you off-track right before...

Turn 12:

Which is a nice right-hander immediately following 11. I watched a few people run wide on 11 not prepared for 12. At the exit of 11 you can pretty much run wide-open, put your knee down, skim the apex of 12 and be done with it. The only trick to 12 is the exit from 11. Keep it screaming as you lean back to the left for...

Turn 13:

13 is a gradual left that you'll be taking under full acceleration. It is the entrance to the back straight and is an excellent place to pass. Lines can vary here as there's room to play. Carry a butt-load of speed off 12 from a good exit on 11 and you'll take your buddy out through 13. Haul some big-time tooshie down the back straight, preparing to slow down as you crest the small hill. The back will get really light braking into...

Turn 14:

..so take it easy on the downshifting. Set up well outside for 14, a right-hander that is (or at least appears to be) a bit past 90 degrees. It's pretty flat, but the wall on your right hides the exit so learn it before you blaze through it. I'm fond of late apexes... doubly so in this turn. This is the one that my early apex at speed led to an off-track excursion. Get on the gas a bit early to extend the suspension (this one's good for getting nice and low), keep it steady until you can see the candy stripes on the outside of the track, then start rolling it progressively to maintain your lean as you continue on through...

Turn 15:

...which should be, effectively, the second apex of one big turn that started at 14. Since you've been rolling on more and more throttle since exiting 14 you should be wide-open through 15 and onto the front straight! Don't forget to brake for Turn 1 as you pass the entrance from the pits!

[alang]

You learned all that after one day.:old-eek

Good track report. I have only been there twice but what you said is right on the money as far as I remember. I hope I can go to T-Hill with you guys the next time evreyone goes.

[theSteveCo]

I imagine it's going to be a whole world different on the Sixxer!! :D

[MackeyStingray]

Originally posted by theSteveCo

Turn 1:
Coming off the front straight you carry an awful lot of speed into this high-speed left hander. Moderate braking just after passing the pits will slow you enough to lay it over and crack the throttle back open. As you clip the apex you can get back hard on the gas and start standing it up as you swing toward the outside of the track. Crest the small hill and enter...


I was almost at the top of 4th (12k RPM or so) when i hit turn 1 on my little mishap. that was only the 2nd time I even shifted out of 3rd, which topped out at around that lookout post in the pits.


Turn 2:
This one's a long sweeping left. Roll off the throttle a tad at the entrance and stay to the outside and get leaned over. Hold your line toward the outside and gradually increase your lean. About 1/2 way into the turn you should be arcing in toward the candy-striping... sweep the dust off it w/ your knee as you get back hard on the throttle. Drift back to the outside as you stand up, get back over to the left side of the track for...


This was probably my fav turn on the track cause it was probably the closest I came to draggin knee. I even passed afew guys on this turn.


Turn 5:
aka: The Cyclone. The turn is broken into two pieces; 5a and 5b. 5a is completely blind left at the peak of the hill. The inside berm seems enormous, and blocks any view of the dropping left-hander as you approach. You'll need to grab some brake coming into this one, keep your approach way over to the right side of the track, mentally project a point about 5 feet beyond the visible berm, aim for it, and commit yourself into the turn. No sooner than you reach the peak of the hill, which is also the apex of the turn, you'll see 5b bearing off to the right. Stay a bit wide here as well (a benefit of early-apexing 5a), put your knee on the floor, and roll on the gas. There's a bit of an unsettling bump about 1/3 of the way through this turn so don't overcommit the lean just yet. Once past it you can run wide open, clipping the right side and setting yourself up for...

I never did find point to look at on this turn (5a) and was probably going half the speed everyone else was on this portion of the track. I tried some of the tents but they were always too far to the right to make good reference points. I usually ended up going wide (about 2ft from the candy cane strips on the right)


Turn 9:
Remember that lever over there by the throttle? You'll need it coming into this tight left-hander. Grab a good sized handfull of brake as you approach 9, setting up on the far right side of the track. You're going uphill so you can squeeze harder than you normally would, and you should. Get off the inside of the bike, lay it over, squeeze the throttle, clip the inside of the turn (might consider keeping your knee up for this one, the berm is pretty high) and enjoy the view as you are presented with a scenic view of the paddock and large portions of the track... you won't, however, see the track immediately in front of you as it drops downhill at an alarming rate. It's probably not much steeper than the back of the Cyclone, but you're moving quite a bit faster. Line up with the port-a-potty on the horizon, open the throttle all the way up, and start looking for the track. Your front wheel will probably lift a bit once you get used to this particular turn. Roll down the hill hard on the gas to get yourself to...
I ran off the course 1 time and a few close encounters of the offroad kind here. If someone was in front, I used that person as a guide. I saw the port-o-lets 1 time and it helped.

Don't forget to brake for Turn 1 as you pass the entrance from the pits!
I should have though of that. :rolleyes

Great description steve. :) seems awefully familiar...

[MrCrash]

Originally posted by thesteveco
Hey Crash -- I took some time to write out my memory of the track. I realized after re-reading your post that I have almost NO reference points to speak of - but after only 3 hours on the track I guess that's not so bad.


You must not have brought your pen and paper ;)


You'll also note that I mention not having to brake much (if at all) in some spots that you DO mention it - clearly you're moving at a much higher rate of speed. :D


In a few places, I'm not too hard on the brakes, that is primarily to set speed. These places are the entrance of Turn 3, and the entrance of Turn 6. Everywhere else I'm pinned or feeding the throttle in and trying to get it pinned. Two time AFM #1 Plate Holder Jeff Short once gave me the advice that coasting is wasted time, time I could have spent on the throttle, compensating for the additional speed with by adjusting my braking point. It's more difficult to set your speed this way, and it's a good way for beginners (and experts) to get in trouble, but it's ultimately the fastest way around the track.


Also, after playing w/ gears before lunch, I actually ran the whole track in 4th every session after lunch.. I was running about 13,000 RPM at the end of the front straight, and never really dropped below 5 or 6K, even in 5a.

Anyway, let me know what ya think...
(have any openings at City Bike?? :laughing :laughing)


Yeah, I forgot to mention my gearing out there. The 4th gear drill is a good drill to work on carrying speed through turns and setting entrance speed.

As far as openings at CityBike, if you've got a good writing style, they'll notice it if you write them! At least one of the long-standing contributors got his job simply by writing entertaining entries in the letters to the editor section.


http://209.151.238.21/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2322

Oh yeah, when you gonna register over at BARF, anyway???

- 13 Yahoo Clubs
- 4 email lists
- 2 ethnocentric communities
- 2 sportbikes.net forums
- 2 half assed attempts at online web logs
- 1 motorcycle based chatroom where I've evidently typed almost 60,000 lines of text since September

Hell, what's one more?

FEAR my internet presence.

Until I do register over there, I'll transfer it here :)


Trying my hand at a "Mr Crash" style post...

Turn 1:

Coming off the front straight you carry an awful lot of speed into this high-speed left hander. Moderate braking just after passing the pits will slow you enough to lay it over and crack the throttle back open. As you clip the apex you can get back hard on the gas and start standing it up as you swing toward the outside of the track. Crest the small hill and enter...


Sounds good, if I didn't carry enough entry speed in I find myself on the gas earlier and harder.


Turn 2:

This one's a long sweeping left. Roll off the throttle a tad at the entrance and stay to the outside and get leaned over. Hold your line toward the outside and gradually increase your lean. About 1/2 way into the turn you should be arcing in toward the candy-striping... sweep the dust off it w/ your knee as you get back hard on the throttle. Drift back to the outside as you stand up, get back over to the left side of the track for...


It's a good idea to keep your lines a little tighter as you're getting up to speed.

I approach this turn about 2/3 of the way over to the right. There is no staying to the outside for me. At the black patch on the right at the entrance, I bring the bike in to the curb, where the fewest bumps are. At least until my suspension starts working over the bumps, but that's another issue.

I hug the inside through the turn, constantly attempting to feed it more gas without letting the bike drift out. About 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the turn, where I can start to see the chute between 2 and 3, I'm feeding it even more gas, which is forcing the bike wider. I'll typically use about 1/2 to 2/3 of the track on the exit.


Turn 3:

The first right-hander is another sweeper, but it's off camber and has a tricky line. Ride the left side of the track, let off the gas just before you crest the hill just in time to see the turn. Stay to the outside and gradually creep in as you apply more throttle. Once again a late apex will have you scraping your right puck just over the striping. Don't linger too long after the apex as you need to flick the bike back down to the left for...


Don't start too wide. Half way out should be enough. Don't hang it out wide either. Where the pavement starts to drop heading into the turn, bring it to the inside curb, again feeding it as much gas as you can without letting it drift out.


Turn 4:

A bit more than a kink, covering about 45 degrees (it seems) this turn is right after the exit of 3, interconnecting the two. Running wide in 3 would destroy your line for 4. You're just starting to climb again right at the middle of the turn so the added g-force aids you in really attacking the turn. Although you might like to release the throttle for the setup you should get right back on it for maximum cornering clearance. Stay on the gas as you right the bike, kinking just a bit to the right, heading dramatically uphill into...


I'm on the gas not for cornering clearance, but for maximum drive up the hill. I understand where you are coming from though, riding a Couch-a-saki.


Turn 5:

aka: The Cyclone. The turn is broken into two pieces; 5a and 5b. 5a is completely blind left at the peak of the hill. The inside berm seems enormous, and blocks any view of the dropping left-hander as you approach. You'll need to grab some brake coming into this one, keep your approach way over to the right side of the track, mentally project a point about 5 feet beyond the visible berm, aim for it, and commit yourself into the turn. No sooner than you reach the peak of the hill, which is also the apex of the turn, you'll see 5b bearing off to the right. Stay a bit wide here as well (a benefit of early-apexing 5a), put your knee on the floor, and roll on the gas. There's a bit of an unsettling bump about 1/3 of the way through this turn so don't overcommit the lean just yet. Once past it you can run wide open, clipping the right side and setting yourself up for...


If you're on the gas, the bumps are less unsettling. I don't even notice them as I'm already on the gas and tightening my line one I clip the dark section of pavement at the bottom of the hill. My momentum carries me about 5-7 feet from the right side of the track, I use the dark patch at the bottom of the hill as a turn in point.


Turn 6:

A nice predictable left-hander with a bit more margin for turn-in error than the previous turns. Run this one hard when you're comfortable with it. =) It has a slight uphill transition through it that allows for a bit more bite, but levels off near the end so don't be at the limit of traction as you near the end. You're not done w/ the lean, though...


One of the most important turns on the track. "Running it hard" implies carrying speed through the turn. The nature of the turn makes that a little tricky. If there is one turn on the track you need to get a good drive out of, it's Turn 6. Setting your speed early and getting on the gas as early as possible is crucial here.


Turn 7:

Is a long continuing left. Keep your butt cheek off the saddle and hold the throttle WTFO. The combination of acceleration and cornering forces through 7 and into 8 are quite exhilerating. Keep leaned over as you skim the inside of the track, drift back out and set yourself up for...

Turn 8:

Another "kink" in the track, but this one has the candy striping to help you line yourself up since you can, in theory, keep the gas on full through 7 and 8. It's deceiving at first, but it can be taken at very high speed if your line is good. You're running uphill again now (since just before the turn's apex) and barreling full-tilt into...


Reference points are everything for 8.

I've tried staying pinned through 7 and 8. If you can, you're either on something that doesn't make as much power as a stock EX500, or you could have driven out of 6 harder.


Turn 9:

Remember that lever over there by the throttle? You'll need it coming into this tight left-hander. Grab a good sized handfull of brake as you approach 9, setting up on the far right side of the track. You're going uphill so you can squeeze harder than you normally would, and you should. Get off the inside of the bike, lay it over, squeeze the throttle, clip the inside of the turn (might consider keeping your knee up for this one, the berm is pretty high) and enjoy the view as you are presented with a scenic view of the paddock and large portions of the track... you won't, however, see the track immediately in front of you as it drops downhill at an alarming rate. It's probably not much steeper than the back of the Cyclone, but you're moving quite a bit faster. Line up with the port-a-potty on the horizon, open the throttle all the way up, and start looking for the track. Your front wheel will probably lift a bit once you get used to this particular turn. Roll down the hill hard on the gas to get yourself to...


I typically short shift down the hill. Even with the GSXR1000, I didn't have a wheelie problem here. But that's moreso a product of short shifting.

What I'm about to describe isn't a beginner method of going about this turn, but it's how I know I nailed it. I'll hit my braking point, trail brake in then feel the front end push as I come off the brakes, then feel the back end come out as I'm hard on the gas at the apex of the turn where there are a few ripples. Both ends of the bike will be pushing as my momentum carries me wide, and I weight the outside peg to control the movement of the bike. Standing the bike onto the push, I have gotten traction to catch suddenly and yank the front wheel into the air at the crest.

Typically doesn't happen unless I'm in the low 2:02 range. With all the problems I'm having right now, I'm far from that.


Turn 10:

Ed's turn. It's a sharp left, slightly downhill to complicate things. Remember how nice it was braking uphill into 9? No such luck here, you just ran full-throttle downhill into this one and your brakes are going to suck.. brake EARLY as not to pick the rear wheel up and end your session. Set up way outside (on the right), finish braking, lean the bike over, crack the throttle, clip the apex, and get back on the gas to...


2/3 of the way over to the right should be enough. Code seems to teach students to use all the track, whereas I come from the Pridmore school where lines are a bit tighter and cleaner. As you are still coming up to speed, it isn't necessary to use the whole track. Once you are up to speed, using the whole track leaves you susceptible to being passed. So I never really do, in most turns.


Turn 11:

Which, I'm pleased to share, is another uphill braking turn. I actually found that trail-braking this one works quite nicely (as did 3, I just forgot to mention it). Beware, however, the hill once again levels off right at the apex and the turn is tighter than 10. I dragged an awful lot of metal on this turn trying to find the right line. Why? Because it's tight and because a bad line will shoot you off-track right before...


Did you pull your center stand?


Turn 12:

Which is a nice right-hander immediately following 11. I watched a few people run wide on 11 not prepared for 12. At the exit of 11 you can pretty much run wide-open, put your knee down, skim the apex of 12 and be done with it. The only trick to 12 is the exit from 11. Keep it screaming as you lean back to the left for...

Turn 13:

13 is a gradual left that you'll be taking under full acceleration. It is the entrance to the back straight and is an excellent place to pass. Lines can vary here as there's room to play. Carry a butt-load of speed off 12 from a good exit on 11 and you'll take your buddy out through 13. Haul some big-time tooshie down the back straight, preparing to slow down as you crest the small hill. The back will get really light braking into...


You may or may not be revving out on the exit when you are still leaned over, I grab gears in the transitions to maximize my drive out and to prevent me from revving past the power peak.


Turn 14:

..so take it easy on the downshifting. Set up well outside for 14, a right-hander that is (or at least appears to be) a bit past 90 degrees. It's pretty flat, but the wall on your right hides the exit so learn it before you blaze through it. I'm fond of late apexes... doubly so in this turn. This is the one that my early apex at speed led to an off-track excursion. Get on the gas a bit early to extend the suspension (this one's good for getting nice and low), keep it steady until you can see the candy stripes on the outside of the track, then start rolling it progressively to maintain your lean as you continue on through...


Late apexing typically allows for better drives out of turns, but in this case drive isn't so crucial as Turn 15 acts as a governor for whatever speed has been built out of 14. I see a lot of riders entering 14 much wider than they need to be. About 2/3 to 3/4 of the way over to the left on the approach should be enough. I like a tighter line and an earlier apex through this corner than most.


Turn 15:

...which should be, effectively, the second apex of one big turn that started at 14. Since you've been rolling on more and more throttle since exiting 14 you should be wide-open through 15 and onto the front straight! Don't forget to brake for Turn 1 as you pass the entrance from the pits!


Good stuff.

I did a few videotaped laps and a written evaluation for a friend of mine last weekend, he seemed to find the information very valuable. Hopefully I'm able to get my act together and get my bike working right so I can focus on other things like this videotaping service, and helping out other riders. I think I've found the root of my problems though, so hopefully it won't be long until I reach that point.

- Mike

[superhawk]

Originally posted by theSteveCo
I imagine it's going to be a whole world different on the Sixxer!! :D

Yeah, the only differance is that you will crash in the grass at a faster speed:flame :fart :troy :twofinger :superhawk

Steve check your p.m.

[Chuci]

I win... :twofinger:chuci

::edit:: oh yeah, on turn 9, aim for the middle of the track - (*&^&*% the porta-potty... :teeth

[Robert R1]

Originally posted by MrCrash907

I hug the inside through the turn, constantly attempting to feed it more gas without letting the bike drift out. About 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the turn, where I can start to see the chute between 2 and 3, I'm feeding it even more gas, which is forcing the bike wider. I'll typically use about 1/2 to 2/3 of the track on the exit.

Turn 2 actually tightens up before the point of apex. Most people think it's a constant radius corner, it's not. I line it up wide so I bring the bike into the apex and immediately start picking it up and giving it a hand full of throttle. This usually puts me on the kerb at the exit of 2 and I stay full throttle until I brake for 3. From the point of the apex the track quickly widens so you can afford to stand the bike up and try to go full throttle asap. Esp. on a bike like an R1.


Don't start too wide. Half way out should be enough. Don't hang it out wide either. Where the pavement starts to drop heading into the turn, bring it to the inside curb, again feeding it as much gas as you can without letting it drift out.

Excellent line. It reallys helps to trail brake deep into 3. The compression of the front end from trail braking really aids the turn in of the bike.

I'm on the gas not for cornering clearance, but for maximum drive up the hill. I understand where you are coming from though, riding a Couch-a-saki.

I got too many many off the seaters when I tried to hold full throttle all the way thru 4. Now I roll on smoothly :)


If you're on the gas, the bumps are less unsettling. I don't even notice them as I'm already on the gas and tightening my line one I clip the dark section of pavement at the bottom of the hill. My momentum carries me about 5-7 feet from the right side of the track, I use the dark patch at the bottom of the hill as a turn in point.

Agreed. With your line, you will knick the apex just after the dip in 5b. Perfect line.

One of the most important turns on the track. "Running it hard" implies carrying speed through the turn. The nature of the turn makes that a little tricky. If there is one turn on the track you need to get a good drive out of, it's Turn 6. Setting your speed early and getting on the gas as early as possible is crucial here.

I turn in hard so I can get the bike turned quickly, then pick it up and exit hard. Turn 6 is very fast people!!!


Reference points are everything for 8.

I've tried staying pinned through 7 and 8. If you can, you're either on something that doesn't make as much power as a stock EX500, or you could have driven out of 6 harder.

7 is flat out on any street bike. 8 requires you to load up the front end. You can do this with trail braking or rolling off the throttle for turn-in. Watch out for the dip in 8. I was scraping my case cover there all the time.



What I'm about to describe isn't a beginner method of going about this turn, but it's how I know I nailed it. I'll hit my braking point, trail brake in then feel the front end push as I come off the brakes, then feel the back end come out as I'm hard on the gas at the apex of the turn where there are a few ripples. Both ends of the bike will be pushing as my momentum carries me wide, and I weight the outside peg to control the movement of the bike. Standing the bike onto the push, I have gotten traction to catch suddenly and yank the front wheel into the air at the crest.

I exit 9 on anticipation. Putting faith that the track will be in the same place when I get over the hill :) I drag the rear brake to keep the front end down. I prefer to make time up under brakes and corner speed thru 9 and get a continous full throttle drive all the way down the hill, rather then coming over the crest sliding and having to roll off or short shift.


2/3 of the way over to the right should be enough. Code seems to teach students to use all the track, whereas I come from the Pridmore school where lines are a bit tighter and cleaner. As you are still coming up to speed, it isn't necessary to use the whole track. Once you are up to speed, using the whole track leaves you susceptible to being passed. So I never really do, in most turns.

Turn 10 is really fast!!! It's not a slow corner!!! There's a ton of banking on the inside and feel free to use the kerb on the outside when you exit.



Turn 11. You can't make up much time in the slow corners and 11 is pitifully slow. Use 11 to setup your line through 12 and 13 and onto the back straight. It's pointless to go fast through 11 and have to slow up for 12 and 13.


You may or may not be revving out on the exit when you are still leaned over, I grab gears in the transitions to maximize my drive out and to prevent me from revving past the power peak.

12 and 13 are don't require a lot of lean angle. If you exit 11 right, you can ride the kerbs and clip the apex of 12 and straight line it for 13. This will put you close to the pit wall but don't worry, you will get that fear out of your system after doing it for a few laps :)

Late apexing typically allows for better drives out of turns, but in this case drive isn't so crucial as Turn 15 acts as a governor for whatever speed has been built out of 14. I see a lot of riders entering 14 much wider than they need to be. About 2/3 to 3/4 of the way over to the left on the approach should be enough. I like a tighter line and an earlier apex through this corner than most.

There a few bumps if you take 14 too tight, on the inside. Line it up so you clip the apex right after those bumps and pick it up and get back on the gas. Take 14 too late and too wide and a semi could pass you on the inside :)

15 is almost flat out. I hold steady throttle just for a split sec. between gears load up the front and turn in. Use the exit kerb on 15 and stay left for a while. There are few ripples and bumps on the straight that could cause headshake/tankslapper, especially on certain R1's with 208GP's :) Note to self, run the RennSports next time :)

Crash, my post isn't a rebuttle to your but just an extension and a variance for others to read :)

[sasquatch]

I printed out the map of T-hill and have been going over it in my mind. I am up to corner 5B, matching TSC, and ED's discriptions


SAS

[Ninja Blade]

i've got an onboard video of i believe mrcrash on thunderhill. it's a 12mb mpeg. i can't remember where i got it and have no where to upload it. steve, is there some way i can upload it to the server?

[MackeyStingray]

ttt. dayum. been almost 1/2 yr. since this was posted. so those that have posted this before, and have ridden these tracks again, what would you do differently now that you have more exp. compared to your earlier notes?

for me.

turn 3:
after exiting turn 2 drift over to about 1/2 to 1/4 width from the right side and just hug the inside. less extreme off cambered angle and if keep hugging it till the strips, i think i can get a good drive through 4 and up to the cyclone.

turn 5a:
used to just kinda coast down the hill using gravity to bring me back up to speed. i always have horrible drive out the cyclone being way too slow...now i just keep it almost 3/4 throttle and seem to get better drive. when i was following TSC the last trackday, he would get mad distance on me through 5a while i kept pace through the other turns.

turn 7:
still kindova puss through here. though i'm probably at least at the top of 3rd if not into 4th here. i don't usually hang off here and just tip it over after passing the cone. should i hang off?

turn 8:
there's a little dip at the apex. not sure exactly how to take it other than a little bit wide (maybe 1.5-2ft out) to avoid the dip as to not unsettle the bike and for keeping my underwear pearly white.

turn 12-13:
after apex 12, drift right next to the wall in the pits to get a better drive out. no need to hug the left cause it'll ruin the drive out. going into 14 maybe 1/2 from the right, ride a defensive line and try to late brake. advantage of passing lighter brakers and having the inside line. after apex 14, drift out wide to the strips on the left and if i can scrape my knee on the apex strip on the right, i get a good drive out. i think i've only done that a couple of times :rolleyes

i'm typically around 3rd gear almost all the time. i think if i downshift to 2nd going into 14 i can get a better drive out. if not, i'll have to increase my corner speed through 14-15 cause i start bogging entering 15 @ maybe 4-5k RPM (TL limit 10.5k). i think it would also help going into 11 after finishing 10 to go down into 2nd gear to get a good drive out. i tried DSing going into the cyclone but once i'm about midway through 5a, i'm hitting the limiter and it's hard for me to shift midturn so i end up not getting enough speed into 6.

not sure if i do all the lines properly but that's how i picture myself doing these. or at least try to. i know i could be a lot tighter though i can't really tell how close i am to the curbing. consistently at least 1ft away from the "real" apexes, my head when i'm hanging off is where i'd like the bike's tires to be. last thing i want is to get too close and go dirt riding on the inside :wow

w/ the upcoming BARF trackday, i think reviving this thread would be helpful for those that have never been or just want to know what kind of lines other riders are taking.

[MackeyStingray]

here's mike's post on SB.n (in case SB.n closes or the thread vanishes)

----------
Note: My reference points are just that. Reference point that work for me. Attempting to use my reference points without working your way up to them, especially on the brakes, will likely end up in an off track excursion. I'm not able to make it out there this weekend due to monetary issues, but hopefully seeing how approach a lap of the track will help some people out:

Driving onto the front straight in fourth gear, I'm revving out and gradually bringing my line over about 3/4 of the way to the right, leaving room should any faster bikes be trying to make their way by me. I'm in sixth gear well before the start finish line, pinned in sixth for all the time it takes to say "one one-thousand" past the line, at which point I drop a gear to fifth and trail on the brakes to smoothly scrub off speed.

There are a series of rectangular patches of lighter colored asphalt leading into Turn 1, I'm trailing on the brakes and turning in about one second before I reach the end of those patches, which also happens to be about one second after the dotted line on the right ends, the one which signifies the end of the track entrance from the hot pit exit.

I'm bringing the bike in as I'm lightly trailing on the brakes, cracking onto the throttle as early as possible, typically about a second afer I begin to tip the bike in, easing off the brakes at the same time. I apex the corner at the midpoint of the candy stripe, feeding in more gas as I go along and letting my momentum take me back out to the right curb.

I come in a little bit setting up for Turn 2, about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way over to the right, still in 5th gear. There's a darker portion of asphalt on the right hand side of the track about a second before the turn actually begins, this is my braking and turn in point. I trail on the brakes and bring my line in so my knee skims the inner edge of the track. Cars have made the middle section of track in Turn 2 extremely bumpy, if your suspension is dialed in you may be able to go right through that. Mine used to, we're working on getting it back to that point. Keep feeding in more throttle as you go through the turn, letting your momentum carry you about halfway to two thirds of the way out.

I bring my bike back about two thirds of the way to the left hand side of the track to set up for Turn 3, as I start to turn the bike when I'm at the crest of the pavement at the entrance to the turn. I see a *lot* of people stay way wide in this turn, much longer than they need to be. Bring the bike in and hold a tight line, possibly allowing it to drift out just a touch (maybe 5 feet or so) for a second and a half after the candy stripe on the right hand side ends.

Roll off the gas and get the bike turned, getting back on the gas as soon as possible and feeding it more throttle as the bike lines up in the direction you want to go. Give it too much too early and you'll head off the right hand side of the track at the base of the hill. Keep feeding it in so you apex Turn 4 about 1/3 of the way from where the candy stripe starts, and your momentum brings you out close to the right hand end of the track where the candy stripe on the right ends. I'm still hard on the throttle here, despite lugging the motor just a touch, as a twin allows me to surf the wave of torque through 3,4, and the entrance of 5.

I head up the hill, dropping one gear at the first big patch of black pavement about halfway up the hill (it overlaps the white line on the right hand edge of the tracK), and dropping one more gear a second later at another black patch with some sort of white marking in it. As soon as the bike settles out from dropping the second gear, I turn the bike in, imagining a point visually just below and to the left of the candy stripe at the apex of the Cyclone. I aim for that imaginary point when turning in, with my knee skimming the candy stripe at the apex,
As I stand the bike up after the crest, I short shift into fourth gear and let my momentum carry me down the hill, about 5-8 feet from the right side of the track. About 10 feet from the right at the bottom of the hill, a black patch of pavement exists, I try to bring the bike to the right curb underneath that dark pavement, feeding the bike gas the whole time but not letting it get too far away from the right hand side of the curb.

About two seconds after I pass the cones on the left, I set up for Turn 6. I do this by trailing on the brakes lightly and starting to turn in after passing a black skidmark on the right hand side of the track that goes over the white line by the curb. I cross the black section of pavement about 5 feet off the left hand curb, apexing it at the end of the candy stripe, feeind as much throttle as possible as early as possible and letting my momentum carry me wide on the exit.

I grab two gears so as to not rev out the motor at full lean, and gently arc the bike back in for Turn 7, letting my momentum again carry me back out to the right hand side of the track. I try to never use all the track on the exits when I know there are faster people out there with me.

I set up for Turn 8 by rolling off the throttle (no brakes) and starting my turn in about one second before I pass the cones to the left which mark off the access roads. If I am unable to distinguish reference points of your own on the track, like cones, track markers, or skidmarks, I often find myself mentally counting past certain reference points (as you may have noticed) or visually lining up easily distinguishable reference points in relationship to each other. For example, if a cone on the inside of the track lines up a certain way with a tree on the horizon, or a section of candy stripe on the exit, I can use that as a reference point.

In any case, I begin to bring the bike to the inner curb about 1 second after the cones on the left, where the pavement gets lighter as well. Feeding on the gas as early as possible, as soon as I know the arc my bike is taking through the corner will carry me to the right edge of the track, my throttle is pinned. I carry this speed up the hill and look for my next reference point for Turn 9.

They pulled the brake markers on the outside of the track last time I was out there, I used to use the #3 board to brake and drop two gears. Last time out I used a pole of sorts out in the dirt, as soon as it reached a certain point at the end of my field of vision, I would drop my gears and brake. Trail braking in slightly as I began to lean the bike over, I would crack the throttle open, looking for a water tower on the hill in the horizon. I'd aim for a spot somewhere to the right of that water tower and be WFO (wide full open), letting my momentum carry me to the right hand edge of the track.

I'd grab fifth, then grab sixth at the bottom of the hill, staying about 2/3 of the way to the right until I reached a particular section of black pavement before where the track crests at the entrance to Turn 10. When the bike settles after that crest, I would bend in and apex at the halfway point of the candy stripe, allowing my momentum to carry me to the outer portion of track again.

Setting up for Turn 11. I'd drop one gear right before the black section of pavement, braking and turning it as soon as the back wheel settled out from the downshift. I'd aim for the end of the candy striping on the left, then 3/4 of the way down the candy striping on the right after as I grab a gear in the transition, grabbing another gear as I transition back to the left to apex the last left about halfway up the candy stripe, allowing my momentum to carry me wide.

I stay in the middle of the course approacing Turn 14, counting "one onethousand, two onethousand" after I go reach the dark patch of pavement on the approach to the turn, at which point I'm hard on the brakes and dropping three gears. I apex this turn earlier than many do, at the halfway point of the candy stripe on the right while letting my momentum carry me to the edge at the point the candy stripe on the left ends. I used to turn in around the 1 marker on the left side of the track, but that wasn't out there last time.

Once I have the bike straight on the exit of 14, I'd grab one gear to be in 4th and feeding it gas while turning in so that my line takes me over the outside edge of a dark patch in the middle of the pavement (right where the dotted line is for the pit exit), and lets me apex the turn so that my knee skims the candy stripe and my momentum carries me wide to the point that the candy stripe on the left hand side ends.

And that's one of my laps of Thunderhill. Nothing is sudden. Everything is gradual. Each control input flows into the next. Smoothness is everything.
----------

[christofu]

Turn 3 is actually damn near neutral camber right around the inside of the turn. It's only when you get about 1.5 meters from the edge of the track that the significantly off-camber section begins.

That's why you should enter Turn 3 no more than half way across the track from the right hand side. If the turn was on-or-neutral-camber the fastest line would be to enter wide and thereby reduce the angle of the turn. Because the turn is off camber out wide, though, you can't go as fast out there. It's actually a faster line to stay in tight and cope with a higher angle of turn but be on the neutral camber section.

p.s. it makes it a little harder to set up for Turn 4 (you have to pull turn 3 in tight right at the end), but the extra speed is worth it.

[FatSlim]

These are great descriptions!

I didn't know that about the camber in 3. I always thought it was off-camber throughout. That helps explain why I had less traction at the same speed on the outside of the turn versus the inside last time I was there. Ouch.

[theSteveCo]

I only recently learned about the inside line in 3. It's definitely my favorite, and make 4 a lot more interesting!! :thumbup

[JeffKoch]

Jason Pridmore teaches a tight inside line through turn 3, and it seems to work for me - you basically hug the inside at the entry and down the hill, let it run wide mid-corner, then keep a steady arc to get back towards the right curbing on the exit to set up for turn 4. If you carry good entry speed and trailbrake a bit down the hill, and drive hard out into 4, there's basically no way anyone's gonna be able to pass you at least until the top of the hill for turn 5. That's the one place at TH where I can keep up with nearly anyone.:cool (at least until 5A...)

[lance_keigwin]

Here are some ideas to consider. The most important thing to remember is that there is no “one way” to do anything in this sport, and you should use what works best for you. These are tips we teach at STAR and Keigwins@theTrack schools.

Turn 1 – Don’t turn in too soon. Most everyone does. Wait until the end of the “splotchy” pavement before beginning your turn. This is a fast corner you don’t want to commit to early or you’ll limit your options.

Turn 2 – Do NOT set up wide. Why, are you trying to straighten out a long, 180 deg corner? All you’re doing is opening the door for someone to stuff you. Try running it in faster on a tight line and letting your speed carry you a little deeper (if necessary). Use most of the track on the exit (get on the gas!).

Turn 3 – Set up only 1/3 – 1/2 out from the right. Not wide! The camber is worse on the outside. And why mess with a harsher lean angle when you’re already challenged by the road falling away? I’m rarely more than 10 feet from the right, entering 3.

Turn 5 – You don’t need to set up very wide. You just need to turn hard and quickly and hit the candystripe. Remember, no one has ever run off the left side of the track. Also, DO NOT downshift to second gear. Stay in third. You don’t need engine braking going in (it’s uphill) and you don’t need the power coming out (it’s downhill and off camber). Saves you the awkward upshift to 3rd.

Turn 6, 7, 8 – This is the fastest, non-straight section of the track. Learn to carry more speed. Turn 8 is the track’s fastest corner and the apex is not scary as it once was.

Turn 9 – Find reference points if they work for you. If not, aim for mid track up the blind hill.

Turn 10 – This is a banked corner and you should carry good speed through it. Late brake and set up 3/4 out.

Turn 11 – This is one of the few corners where you should set up wide and late apex. It’s a slow corner and the important thing is to get out of it cleanly.

Turn 14 – Different lines work here. I recommend 2/3 out, late brake, apex about 6 feet from the candystrip, let your speed carry you wide to set up for the most important corner on the track.

Turn 15 – Get on the gas early and roll it on quickly. Try to get most of the “turning” done early so you can maximize the throttle.

Lance.

[Raffy-D]

nice write-up Lance :thumbup

[MrCrash]

After watching videotape, I'm closer to 1/2 way out on Turn 3, as opposed to 2/3 of the way out as I previously mentioned. I used to be able to make 2/3 of the way out work, riding the SV against 750cc inline 4s, 1000cc twins, and 250 GP bikes in AFM Formula I, but the best line does seem to utilize a 1/2 to 1/3 of the way from the right entrance.

Lots of people enter wider and sit out there forever, I try to bury the front end into the turn and bring it to the curb quickly, feeding it as much gas as possible while keeping my line as tight as possible.

- Mike