Desmo Buttonwillow - AFM vs. Mazda Sweeper

[mikeyjudkins]

I just got back from the Club Desmo Buttonwillow weekend and it was a great time I have to say. I do have one gripe though, and that is, I would have prefered to run the AFM corner instead of Mazda corner. Let me tell you why...

First of all, by running the Mazda turn, all my lap times are rendered inaccurate compared to AFM times, making it alot of guesswork as to what my times are compared to AFM times. I realize that alot of people arent interested in times, but alot of the faster riders are aspiring AFMers, who do keep track of their times, and they want to practice the turn that will be run in the AFM, not a car track turn.

Second, the Mazda turn is designed to be run counter clockwise. Look at the track map with the pen markings on it, you will see arrows going counter clockwise. Bikes run the track clockwise. When run clockwise, Mazda turn is alot more dangerous than the AFM turn, and, while its great practice, especially for hard braking, it is going to cause more crashes than the AFM turn. You will pay much more dearly for going in a little too hot there, than if you made the same mistake going into the AFM turn. There is a reason the AFM decided to go with that configuration. The reason is safety.

So, if anyone who has any say in bringing back the AFM turn is listening in, you can consider this a vote for the AFM turn.

[wei7]

Hello there! Are you saying that no trackday event people should be allowed to have the Mazda turn? It sounds like you want to ban the turn for any trackday organizers. If you are concerned about the Mazda corner you might want to just call them before you pay out good money. As for AFMers, yes they do not do Mazda for the races but it is good pratice. If you are concerned about the times the data logger estimates about a 5-8 second difference depending on skill from AFM turn to Mazda turn. Example would be Mazda turn doing 2:08 then AFM turn would be about 2:00-2:03 which sounds about right. I would console Mr. Solis about the accuracy but I think about there.

What bike were you on? Any number plate?

[mikeyjudkins]

I don't mind the one-time change up that much, its nice variety, but when I asked if this was going to be done again on the next date I signed up for (I had signed up for 2 dates in advance), I was told that Mazda turn was going to be used again, and so I had to admit, I was dissapointed that I was not going to be able to practice the AFM turn, and also I would not be able to compare my exact times to the AFM with accuracy. 5 to 8 seconds difference would mean I was running below 2:10s, and that is facking hauling ass for me. It would have meant alot to me if I had the exact AFM times I was doing. I was riding a yellow and black F4, no numbers or anything, pretty much all stock 'cept for an M4 oval high mount slip on.

[Chuci]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
... I was riding a yellow and black F4, no numbers or anything, pretty much all stock 'cept for an M4 oval high mount slip on.

I think I saw you in the paddock a few times, but had no idea you were a BARFER. Since this was my first time at BW, I have no comparison between the 2. However, I like the Mazda turn for the way it forces better technique. As Ed explained it, the AFM turn is a decreasing radius, so it's potentially more dangerous than the Mazda. As for the direction it's supposed to be run, it worked just fine clockwise. :teeth
Just my $.02

Hope to meet you sometime soon and see you at another track day! The wife and I will be at Buttonwillow in August for another Desmo weekend.

[mikeyjudkins]

You haven't run the AFM turn as well as Mazda??? and you voted???!!! pleaze.... thats like saying you like strawberry ice cream more than chocolate, but you haven't even tried chocolate.

I almost crashed twice on Mazda exiting it. You could say its rider error of course, but, I have never even come close to crashing on the AFM turn, even my first times on it. You have a very poor line of sight through Mazda, compared to AFM. There is no run off in Mazda if you do overcook the turn and decide to go straight, you end up in the dirt, and you are forced to turn it in violently after heavy braking instead of the nice, flowing, surf-like properties of the AFM turn. To me, its obvious the AFM turn that is a better choice, all around for fun and safety.

[wei7]

It would be rider error only because every person I rode with in A group made the turn just fine and most people were running about 2:08-2:12 and some under that. Cycle World rider took it hotter than most and had great exit speed. If you almost ran off so many times, maybe you just early apexed and missed the mark. Go in a little deeper and trailbrake it then roll on when you see the exit at the left hand burm. Just my opinion not that I am of your caliber in riding but maybe it will work.

[calamari_750]

*DISCLAIMER* : I have no experience with the AFM turn! [/disclaimer]

That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed the Mazda turn, especially as this was my first time at Buttonwillow. I can appreciate that you would like to accurately compare your times using the actual AFM course, because estimates are just that...estimates.

I'm curious though how you feel about Turn 14 at Thunderhill. In my mind, the two are very similar, except for the fact that Turn 14 at T-Hill is blind whereas you can actually look through the Mazda turn. There's no option to change it at Thunderhill and the AFM was just there racing this weekend.

Sorry that I didn't know another fellow BARF member was there, would have been nice to meet up with you. Hopefully at a trackday in the near future! :cool

[morthrane]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins

I almost crashed twice on Mazda exiting it. You could say its rider error of course, but, I have never even come close to crashing on the AFM turn, even my first times on it. You have a very poor line of sight through Mazda, compared to AFM. There is no run off in Mazda if you do overcook the turn and decide to go straight, you end up in the dirt, and you are forced to turn it in violently after heavy braking instead of the nice, flowing, surf-like properties of the AFM turn. To me, its obvious the AFM turn that is a better choice, all around for fun and safety.

"Surf like"? Pardon my bluntness, but it sounds like you're just bitching. Every turn has its own properties, and aren't they laid out on the course to *challenge* you? If I judged your attitude correctly, it sounds like you'd dislike any "blind" fast corner, like say the corner after the back straight at thunderhill (14?). Or the Corkscrew at laguna seca, etc. etc.

Is the mazda turn really that dangerous? I mean in a "This is Sears Point Dangerous and professional racers slow down for some corners" sense.

[YellowDuc]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
You haven't run the AFM turn as well as Mazda??? and you voted???!!! pleaze.... thats like saying you like strawberry ice cream more than chocolate, but you haven't even tried chocolate.



I would say re-read his post then. He did not say one turn was better than the next. He simply stated the reason he enjoyed the Mazda turn. I did not see him 'vote' by saying the Mazda turn was better. Further, welcome to America. You know land of the Free and home of the Brave. He is allowed to have a different view point than you. But, as wei7 stated, I may not be in your class of ridding. But, I wonder why the guys in Grp A had no issues with it?

[YellowDuc]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins

I almost crashed twice on Mazda exiting it. You could say its rider error of course, but, I have never even come close to crashing on the AFM turn, even my first times on it. You have a very poor line of sight through Mazda, compared to AFM. There is no run off in Mazda if you do overcook the turn and decide to go straight, you end up in the dirt, and you are forced to turn it in violently after heavy braking instead of the nice, flowing, surf-like properties of the AFM turn. To me, its obvious the AFM turn that is a better choice, all around for fun and safety.

Wow, better not ride at Laguna Seca then. That Cork Screw will mess with your head then. But, since I have never ridden the Mazda turn, I'm sure it's much worse. :twofinger

[mikeyjudkins]

My goal in starting this thread wasn't to start an argument over track safety, but rather to share my view with people that given the two options, the AFM turn is a better choice compared to the Mazda turn because of the nature of the event, the safety, and (in my personal opinion) fun factor.

But to address the issue of safety compared to other circuits, if a track has a choice between two similar layouts, and one layout is plainly safer than the other, you tell me, what is more beneficial to all the riders out there? Customizing track layout for safety is nothing new to racing organizations.

[YellowDuc]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
My goal in starting this thread wasn't to start an argument over track safety, but rather to share my view with people that given the two options, the AFM turn is a better choice compared to the Mazda turn because of the nature of the event, the safety, and (in my personal opinion) fun factor.

But to address the issue of safety compared to other circuits, if a track has a choice between two similar layouts, and one layout is plainly safer than the other, you tell me, what is more beneficial to all the riders out there? Customizing track layout for safety is nothing new to racing organizations.

Well, I guess I would say this, if it was not safe to use the Mazda turn, why did they use it? Further, I do not know you, nor have I seen you ride. But, I do know Ed (wei7) and he did not seem to think the Mazda turn was unsafe.

[wei7]

Thunder can configure the track to almost run an oval track but AFM nor FIM recommended it. Mazda turn although challenging is a great turn. Solis likes the sweeper such as yourself (mike) but the reason behind it was that he thinks it makes the esses very dangerously fast which is true. I powered out of Mazda and headed to the esses way too fast and was riding the burms all the way. Just a small error in judgement would have been bad but it happens.

I do understand that you want accurate times but really it is only a trackday not a race day. I too went there for testing and only got a few laps in but I was not unhappy in the least because of Mazda.

As for just lap times I very much disagree with only doing testing for lap time. Button is very technical and everyone has to learn the turns and find tricks for passing plus smoother lines. Also lines which will protect you during a race. If Mazda turn is the only turn that you do not do well then more power to you. I know that many AFMers at the Desmo day did not care about the turn and just worked on other turns.

Not to be an ass but are you posting your laptimes for a reason?

[DocWong]

Hi,

Since I ran the track day this past weekend June 15th and 16th to be honest with you, I decided to run the Mazda turn simply because I like it. I've run the AFM turn before and it's fun too!

But the Mazda turn is so smooth and when you hit it right you can get so much speed out of it.

I was also asked to run the entire track backwards! Anyone want to do that?

Doc:angel

[MrCrash]

After having the chances to run both, I must say I prefer the sweeper / AFM layout. AFM ran the Mazda turn once a few years ago, it was ooogly when good riders on fast bikes got stuck behind mediocre riders on undersized, underpowered bikes. Open GP used to be gridded with 250 Superbike, I saw a couple of the fast Formula Pacific riders on 150+ hp open class bikes use the curbs at the esses as jumps when they made their way past a few Ninja 250s there. Shouldn't be too much of an issue for an uncompetitive trackday though.

As Ed already said, the Mazda turn launches a rider through the esses at a very high rate of speed, which may be a little more dangerous but can actually be sort of fun as well. It's difficult to say that I prefer one over the other due to safety matters.

I can say that I enjoy the technical, decreasing radius nature of the AFM sweeper, and prefer it to the "bomb it on the brakes" nature of the Mazda turn. The sweeper is one of the most technical turns on the track, a great challenge to negotiate correctly, difficult to choose a proper line though, yet blessedly smooth since being repaved.

- Mike

[Chuci]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
You haven't run the AFM turn as well as Mazda??? and you voted???!!! pleaze.... thats like saying you like strawberry ice cream more than chocolate, but you haven't even tried chocolate.
When one looks like shite and the other one is pretty, it makes it an easier choice... :teeth
Seriously, I've ridden plenty of decreasing radius turns on the street and find them much more dangerous. Yes (ahem, YD), I did vote for the Mazda turn because I did like it and benchmarked against any decreasing radius turn I've been on. To wei7's point, the exit from Mazda to the S's was safer as you have much more set-up time. From the AFM turn, it might lead into the first bend nicely, but then you can't run as straight a line through... imho

Originally posted by DocWong
I was also asked to run the entire track backwards! Anyone want to do that?

Doc:angel

:mad you said NO on Sunday dammit..... :twofinger:chuci
Was a very tempting idea, but safer for those who had never been on the track (saw lots of hands raised both days, including mine ;)) before to run the same direction both days. Now for the AUGUST weekend.... :):teeth:|

[mikeyjudkins]

Wei7 writes: "Not to be an ass but are you posting your laptimes for a reason?"

I post it in my sig file mainly because it serves as a motivational tool for me. Also I suppose it doesnt hurt to let people know what skill level I am, instead of going around as anonymous skill level BARFer, there it is right there. One of the great joys I find in going to the track is competing against my own and others lap times. IMO, everyone should post their record times here, it would be cool.

[YellowDuc]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
Wei7 writes: "Not to be an ass but are you posting your laptimes for a reason?"

I post it in my sig file mainly because it serves as a motivational tool for me. Also I suppose it doesnt hurt to let people know what skill level I am, instead of going around as anonymous skill level BARFer, there it is right there. One of the great joys I find in going to the track is competing against my own and others lap times. IMO, everyone should post their record times here, it would be cool.

I see and as "anonymous" BARFers, how would an unvweified lap time in my sig prove the level of my riding ability?

But, I do agree, your lap times should be used to motivate you to imporve :twofinger

[wei7]

Although I do test for time I never encourage people to just look at times or best time. I think posting the lap times mean nothing in the way of a race. Perfect example is Biaggi poling and has the best lap time and record but Rossi always wins. It does not mean that just because Biaggi has a better one lap time that he will win everytime.

It does mean something if it is consistant every lap then you start picking off turns but just as you said before about Mazda turn getting in the way of you beating the track record. Was that the only turn you can not do perfectly? You could have timed with Madza and do everything at the same rythme but execute Mazda turn some different ways and see what the diffence was using the lap timer, then you could get a good idea of your times and start shaving thoughs turns one by one.

You could have praticed endurance also because as you know being a pro-racer and all that there are so many laps in a race. AFM has 6-8 laps and when you race AMA there are over 20.

Best wishes to you on your quest

[wardoggie]

This thread seems to have evolved from a "vote for your favorite Buttonwillow config" to one that's a little nasty, IMO.

I've met Mikey AND Ed on separate occasions and think that, under different circumstances, you'd probably get along. I interviewed Ed for an upcoming Club Desmo article and can see how raw lap times might ruffle his feathers. He's an instructor, after all, and wants to see people get better every time they're on the track. Mikey's a young gun (younger than me, anyhow) and wants to use the track time to prepare for racing AFM. IMO, you should shake hands and Mikey should take some notes from Ed, who I'm sure could help that 2:14 become a 2:08. ;)

As for which turn I prefer, I prefer the one that puts the most track in front of me, which includes Star Mazda turn. This is a track day, don'tcha know, and we ride within our limits (even 10/10ths is within your limits at the track) because safety is largely up to you and those around you. AFM probably configures the track the way they do because they know that some racers have a "win or bin" attitude and would take chances that are not appropriate at a track day.

Peace,
Wardoggie

[Chuci]

Very well put Doggie... now wtf were you and how come I didn't get to meet you at the track? :kicknuts:twofinger
Would have been great to see additional BARFers out there and I think we ALL should make a better effort of getting together at each track event. Since 'everyone' is supposed to attend rider meetings, why not suggest that all BARF members meet right afterward to meet/greet each other. This way, we'll get more group pics (for what? hmmm... :angel) and it would help make a first track-day for someone less intimidating. Sound good?

Oh yeah... looking forward to the article bout Desmo, didn't know you were a writer... ;):teeth

[wei7]

Hello there! It was very nice meeting you Warren! Hope to see you this week in San Mateo. We never really finished talking.

I just want to say that I am a nobody and not a hardcore diehard competitive rider. The whole reason I wrote everything I have writen to Mikey is because I have seen too many people go out there trying to prove something to someone. Lap time this and lap time that...blah blah blah.

I was at the CCS endurance race this weekend and saw how consistant some teams were. Even at the races they were consistant. Many people wanted to see their hotlap and gauge what they did well and where they could make time. Mazda turn, Zorro's curve, east loop, west loop, people just want to see where they can improve. This is my point: unless you are running 1:57 on a 125cc like plate number#505 at Button, I think there are more than just that one turn you need to improve on. Even then you can think of ways to shave off the 10ths you need.

CCS was the worst and the best: worst because no matter what happens they have to keep on schedule. I mean someone crashed and there was a pickup truck ON the track DURING the race. Just a yellow flag for safety. There was oil ON the track and they just tell you "OIL ON 4, BE CAREFUL!" WTF? Good because groups are not so tight and cash prizes!

[mikeyjudkins]

2:08 baby, WITH Mazda. I'm coming for you..... :g

MJ

[Nucking Futs]

I rode an all black honda AFM #626 both days.I've run both configs and like the longer turn more, only because of this reason:there is a seam in the pavement on the shorter turn right down the middle of the turn, and if you are off line due to passing, you go right along it. I've had the front slide and catch and slide and catch over that thing several times, and it's not that fun. As for the shape of the turn it's fine by me. Do you guys really think there is 5 sec. slower per lap because of the longer distance? I would say it is less than that. If thats the case I was hauling ass (for me). Fastest lap I turned was a 2:09. BTW I use lap times to gauge how I'm doing. If I feel comfortable on a lap and the time was fast, I must have done something right so I try to duplicate that next lap. Anybody here going to T-hill on the 9th?

[wei7]

Welcome Nuck! I was thinking about 5 seconds but after the CCS I am thinking about 3 seconds just because you catch so much speed coming out of Mazda. I will do some testing on July 6-7th so I will tell you about it after those days. Hey Nuck! Please go to the newbie section and introduce yourself!!

[wardoggie]

replies, replies...

Chuci, I wasn't feeling all that extroverted that weekend. I was supposed to interview all of the instructors so I could write an article about the quality of instruction available at Club Desmo track days. I got through about five :( Hopefully, I can BS the rest ;) If you wanted to know who I was/am, I'm the guy riding the blue Hawk GT. It really makes me stand out at track days (no fairing, slow guy riding it). Hell, I didn't even make an effort to introduce myself at Sport Bike Night in Palo Alto and I was sitting AT the damn BARF table (forgive me if you were there... I was totally shagged after the weekend at the track and, again, wasn't feeling all that talkative).

As for BARFers meeting up at track days, I'm all for it. Anybody wanna make a sign to display at the riders meeting?

Ed, what's up in San Mateo? That's where I live, so if something is up, I'd like to know about it. And as for you being a nobody, well, humility is a virtue, in my book. And endurance racing does seem like it rewards consistent, smooth riding. The smoother you are, the less energy you exert, the longer you can concentrate, etc. But running a race with oil on the track? I don't know who has bigger balls, the riders or the organizers? Geez!

And Mikey, if'n you want to go faster, ask Jason for some coaching at the next Club Desmo track day. Mazda turn or not, I bet you'll benefit from his teaching. He's the guy that gave me the idea for the article I'm writing :)

Ciao,
Wardoggie

[mikeyjudkins]

Which one is Jason? I am up for some coaching from whoever is giving it. Also, are you writing this article for the same magazine that the big, group picture they took on the 15th is going to be in? I want to get my hands on that and your articles when they are done.


Mikey

[wei7]

Hello Mikey, if you are going to BW on July 6,7th I will be testing and the end of each day. I am still learning the flow but if you want to dice a little I need a partner to run with.

[wardoggie]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
Which one is Jason? I am up for some coaching from whoever is giving it. Also, are you writing this article for the same magazine that the big, group picture they took on the 15th is going to be in? I want to get my hands on that and your articles when they are done.


Mikey

Jason is the tallish guy in the black and silver leathers (Teknik?) on the Suzook TL-R. He's the head instructor and introduces the other instructors at the riders meeting.

And, no, Brian Catterson is writing the article for the Ducati magazine. I'm just writing stuff for the Club Desmo website.

If you're bored, check out my first track day article:

http://www.geocities.com/laura_and_warren/warren/td.htm

Wardoggie

[Chuci]

AWESOME ARTICLE!!! Great job and hope to see more from ya... AND TO MEET YOU DAMMIT!! :teeth

[mikeyjudkins]

Nice article Wardoggie. I look forward to more entertainment!

And Wei7, you and me can dice some. If you are running 2:10ish, I would be good prey for you, but maybe a bit on the soft side, as you would be pulling about 5 secs a lap on me at my best. I can work on my defense, though. :hand

[wei7]

Hey Mikey, I am in the 3:05s so I would not be much of a challenge but we will see! I will just follow for a little then after you lap me I will lead!:laughing

[mikeyjudkins]

Wei, are you sure you didnt mean to say 2:05? Werent you the Yellow Duc glued to Docs tail, and Doc runs a 2:10 all day without breaking a sweat. You are too modest. I am on to you.

Mikey

[wei7]

Sorry but I was the number 34 dookie with a stupid looking vest on.

Please see stupid yellow vest to the left of this box

[wardoggie]

Originally posted by mikeyjudkins
Nice article Wardoggie. I look forward to more entertainment!

...snip... I can work on my defense, though. :hand

Thanks, I'm working on the journalism skills as well as the riding skills.

But please, no defense at a track day! The last thing we need is the dreaded red flag :) Seriously, though, who said a good offense is the best defense? learn to go faster and you won't NEED no stinkin' defense. Just a big trophy case :)

Later,
Wardoggie

[mikeyjudkins]

I think I rode with Wei already. It is all coming back to me now. Wei, I pulled up to you in the pits, you said you werent going out that session but I convinced you to go out. I followed you around to get a few more options for lines. Was that you?

[wei7]

Sorry but I rode with so many people for the two days I really can not remember but I pulled many people off the track to work with them. It would have been pretty hard to miss #34 with Remus pipes and a vest. I have Carbo-tech Remus Max Moto plastered on the bike too.

I did see some of your pictures though and you look good out there!