Slow speed practice, no experts please

tzrider said:

Sorry to hear it. I know that's not the outcome you've wanted.

Question: Why would the officer do that?

As a practical consideration, not being licensed to operate a motorcycle puts real limits on the recourse you have. Not trying to kick you when you're down here, but if your bike is fixable and you continue the pursuit, there are good reasons to make sure you're official.

Heal up.

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+100

Also get yourself some good motocross boots, they would have lessened or prevented your foot injuries. You are right about handguards, a good set of handguards help prevent a lot of injuries.

I hope you take this incident as a wake up call to get some training. It can only help your abilities.

beginner said:

I lost traction in gravel attempting to stop and crashed into the guard rail.

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Lost traction? With all of that figure-eight practice?

Sorry to hear about your crash. I wonder if it could have been avoided if you had more "real" practice instead of just slow parking lot stuff. Hitting gravel on a dirt bike, especially in a straight line, should not cause you to crash.

Bummer! Hope you heal quick.

Why was he trying to get you to stop? Was there some kind of 'enhanced' patroling that was focused on riders? Sounds like he was looking for bikes and stopping any he found.

Did he explain his actions?

***addendum***

Were you crossing a bridge FROM private property TO public property? Was he attempting to keep you from entering public lands?

OR was he on your property attempting to stop you?

tzrider said:

Question: Why would the officer do that?

As a practical consideration, not being licensed to operate a motorcycle puts real limits on the recourse you have. Not trying to kick you when you're down here, but if your bike is fixable and you continue the pursuit, there are good reasons to make sure you're official.

Heal up.

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What the officer did exactly was pull onto the bridge when he saw me coming, go almost to the other end where there was the most gravel, and put the nose of the truck in my lane. When I got close police style lights flashed once from inside the cab. A moment later he stuck his head out the window and shouted stop NOW! Which I reflexively did, on the gravel. My speed at the time was probably 10 mph.

When the officer got out of his truck he was laughing and told me it's not smart to stop on gravel. I was in shock, on the pavement, laying against the guard rail with the bike on top of me moving body parts one at a time checking for injuries while he stood there taunting me. While I was down he asked if I had an endorsement. I said no. He never asked for ID, never asked my name.

The property has a fishing spot. People trespass to use it. I asked someone to leave earlier in the day who probably complained so the officer knew who he was looking for. He told me if I told someone to leave the property again he'd come back and arrest me. I put my wrists together and raised my arms. He didn't arrest me. I've heard from a neighbor he bragged about the incident on the police scanner. I'd like to hear that.

I don't believe what happened was an accident. He was teaching me a lesson. Now I'm scared of the guy. A Conservation Officer can enter private property at will. There's no sanctuary from him. I think he's a loose cannon and the job is getting to him. Between thinking about what to do about him and some aches and pains, sleep has been hard to come by the last two nights.

I'm feeling obliged to make a police report which the officer could not have done since he didn't collect any information at the accident site. If they want to give me a ticked for not having an endorsement that just gets that matter out of the way. It would be a departure from the norm because hundreds of ORVs are used on farms around the county, including off road motorcycles. The ORV laws are written for urban, highway and recreational uses. Farm use wasn't considered when the laws were enacted.

I may get the endorsment to avoid harrassment from the CO. I've been reading the State test materials. It's full of urban and highspeed technicalities that are irrelevent to riding around a farm on a dirt bike under 30 mph.

beginner said:

I may get the endorsment to avoid harrassment from the CO.

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Sounds like a good idea.

It would enable to you insure your bike too. If you're not endorsed, you probably can't be insured, right? You may consider the bike disposable, but what about your liability?

As you probably know, you'd have a much better footing with respect to dealing with this officer if you were 100% legit.

tzrider said:

Sounds like a good idea.

It would enable to you insure your bike too. If you're not endorsed, you probably can't be insured, right? You may consider the bike disposable, but what about your liability?

As you probably know, you'd have a much better footing with respect to dealing with this officer if you were 100% legit.

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The bike is insured and plated. The bike is not insured for damage to the bike because it's used and only cost a couple thousand dollars. Even if it was I wouldn't file a claim for the frame repair. It will take longer to strip the body work to get at the frame than bend the frame back. If I'm not qualified to do the bending I'll take the bike in stripped so I'm not paying for that work. Another reason to strip the bike myself is the manufacturer uses thread patterns that are very easy to cross thread. I'd rather put the bike back together myself and take the time to do it right.

Just in the spirit of being clear on language--

There's a fishing pond on your property where locals are allowed to fish.

That pond is accessed by a right of way that crosses your property.

The CO blocked that right of way in an attempt to get you to stop so he could talk to you.

You fell trying to avoid a collision with his vehicle.

(I'm generously spacing this so it's easy to quote)

Couple of other things:

1. I always tell people that if you know all the law enforcement officers and they know you by name? Generally that's not a good thing. (Unless you own a bar or cafe).

2 An Urban Traffic skill that would have paid off here would have been "interaction with other vehicles". You came up to a restricted space, carried too much speed and were unable to stop. In areas of "uncontrolled intersections" such as driveways and alleys we teach to slow down when you see another user in a position where they may cross your path of travel. In this situation, when you saw the truck at a constricted place (end of bridge) your 'urban' training would have said: why's he there? why is he stopped? is he going to start? turn? vomit out the drivers door? Either way slowing would have been an appropriate action, this would have bought you time and space.

Either way, a bike that gets a bend frame out of a 10mph grind down the guard rail would be rather surprising. Are you sure you weren't carrying bigger speed?

CaptCrash said:

There's a fishing pond on your property where locals are allowed to fish.

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There's a drain where people like to fish in the Spring. They tresspass to get to sections they prefer. We've been dealing with it for years. The motorcycle is quite an effective tool for dealing with the problem.

The CO blocked that right of way in an attempt to get you to stop so he could talk to you.

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He could have waved me over or called me on the phone. I didn't know it was a law enforcement truck until the lights flashed. He waited to do that until I was may be 25 feet from the truck. The truck was unmarked.

You fell trying to avoid a collision with his vehicle.

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No. He left an opening. I'd already planned to cross the bridge and stop on the other side. I fell trying to stop the bike immediately as he verbally ordered from inside the truck. He knew what he was asking me to do. Police officers visit crash sites, they know about gravel and motorcycles.

I always tell people that if you know all the law enforcement officers and they know you by name? Generally that's not a good thing.

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It's possible we met some time in the past. It's doubtful we would recognize each other. There was another truck at the scene that departed moments after the crash. It's likely that was the person who complained and they might have pointed me out as I was approaching.

An Urban Traffic skill that would have paid off here would have been "interaction with other vehicles". You came up to a restricted space, carried too much speed and were unable to stop. In areas of "uncontrolled intersections" such as driveways and alleys we teach to slow down when you see another user in a position where they may cross your path of travel. In this situation, when you saw the truck at a constricted place (end of bridge) your 'urban' training would have said: why's he there? why is he stopped? is he going to start? turn? vomit out the drivers door? Either way slowing would have been an appropriate action, this would have bought you time and space.

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I was already slow, preparing to stop on the other side of the bridge, no more than 10 mph. Remember I never go above 30 mph and on that stretch of road may be 15 mph is the norm.

Either way, a bike that gets a bend frame out of a 10mph grind down the guard rail would be rather surprising. Are you sure you weren't carrying bigger speed?

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The rear frame area is for supporting the fender over the swing arm. It's not heavy material and not cross braced. When the bike went down the rear fender fell on a concrete footing perhaps a foot high and two feet wide built out from the poured concrete guard rail (the bridge is Depression era construction). Fortunately the fender, not the muffler took the hit or the repair would be a lot more complicated.

You'd have to get the endorsement, but you might actually like the Total Control Advanced rider clinics. They use 40' circles and the maximum speed attained is under 25 mph.

I noticed where you had talked about not being an expert because you still need to practice. Experts have to practice or they lose there skills.

So you know the lingo--you bent the SUB frame. The frame wraps around the engine and has the steering head. The subframe bolts to the frame and holds the seat/muffler/fender assemblies. It's an easy fix.

Swerving would have been a good idea.

VaderSS said:

You'd have to get the endorsement, but you might actually like the Total Control Advanced rider clinics. They use 40' circles and the maximum speed attained is under 25 mph.

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I'm not planning to be a highway rider but I love doing PLP. I'm addicted to 18by36 foot figure 8s. I have to ration my time on those because they grind away so rapidly on the front tire. I've done 40' circles but 25 mph sounds a bit fast for that diameter. I could be wrong.

I noticed where you had talked about not being an expert because you still need to practice. Experts have to practice or they lose there skills.

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I would think that to maintain expert level skills would take a significant amount of PLP but that doesn't seem to be the norm.

beginner said:

I lost traction in gravel attempting to stop and crashed into the guard rail.

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The evidence indicates that you aren't practicing the right things (judgment and skill).

beginner said:

I've done 40' circles but 25 mph sounds a bit fast for that diameter. I could be wrong. I would think that to maintain expert level skills would take a significant amount of PLP but that doesn't seem to be the norm.

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25 mph is BLAZING around a 40' circle. That is what the experts achieve. I probably never broke 20 and that felt like I was flying. It does take the correct body position. Lean will only take you so far, and then you have to hang off. Felt very awkward at first, but then it felt like flying.

As soon as a person stops practicing any skill, they start losing it. The longer a person stops, the more skill they lose, and the longer it takes to get it back. Some skills are easy and take little practice, others are difficult, and require a lot.

I keep coming back to this thread and every time I feel like I've wasted small portions of my life here.

One of the training mantras is:

Expert Riders use their Expert Judgement to avoid having to use their Expert Skills...

I'm going to be incredibly blunt here so don't take offense.

You came upon a bridge with another vehicle STOPPED at the other side. You slowed. The vehicle displayed flashing blue and red lights. You continued. The officer in the vehicle pulled forward to block your path. You changed path to go around him. He yelled at you to "STOP NOW" and you panicked and crashed.

Had you been trained you would have learned:

SIPDE: Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute

OR

SEE: Search, Evaluate, Execute

OR

SPA: Search, Predict, Act

All these mental strategies are designed so you live a little farther in the future and are ready with a reasoned reaction to dangers that present themselves. This is where the "Figure it out with a Figure 8" strategy has failed you. You have no mental practice going on. Let's apply the MSF "SEE" strategy to your situation.

Searching for dangers and problems you identify a truck, parked at the other end of a bridge.

Evaluating you realize it's not moving. Is there enough room for him to cross while you cross? Or is he waiting for you to cross. He appears not to be parked. BUT you don't know why? The situation doesn't make sense...best to slow, perhaps even to a walking pace...at the very least move to the far right and as far away from the truck as possible--increasing distance maintains your space cushion and you have more time to react. Best also to make eye contact with the driver! Does he see you? He's staring right at you! Why? Is he in trouble? Does he expect me to stop? COULD HE BE AN UNDERCOVER CONSERVATION OFFICER WITH AT A RANDOM GAME STOP--checking licenses and tags? Best to slow. Move right--NOT TOO FAR because there's suspect traction at the edges and...

Executing, you move right and slow.

Still evaluating the situation you realize he just flashed his blue and red lights. BEST STOP. NOW. Which is easy because you're still on a good surface and should be able to stop from 10 mph in less than 8ft.

Executing you stop in place on the bridge where you have good traction.

Officer Bob steps out, waves you forward and chews on your ass. No blood, no foul.

OH and remember this?

beginner said:

By far the safest and most productive way I've found to spend time on the bike is slow speed practice..

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AND

beginner said:

And I LIKE the parking lot work, I like the way it feels, I like the balance skills it produces. It's also fun because it's safe. There can't be very many life changing injuries from PLP.

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You almost had a life changing injury from PLP. Because your PLP is random riding, not practice for the real world and other riders. I would suggest if the bike gets back into service: swerving and braking practice. Odds are you locked the front and washed it out. Practicing braking (while remembering if the front skids RELEASE AND REAPPLY the brakes) could have helped you in this situation. As would have a better strategy for dealing with other users.

Glad you're healthy not permanently scarred. Even a fall at 10mph can screw you up--becareful when you're in the parking lot.

***I would suggest that if this is on your property or adjacent to yours it sure sounds like this CO was looking SPECIFICALLY for YOU. (You hint that rather than stop you he could have phoned you--which leads me to believe he, again, was looking for YOU.) You might want to ask yourself WHY is a guy with a gun and a badge looking for me AND is that the way you want to run your life?

Enchanter said:

The evidence indicates that you aren't practicing the right things (judgment and skill).

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Trusting the officer was bad judgement, a mistake I'll never repeat.

For decades I've been respectful and supportive of the conservation officers beyond what was necessary even though I don't hunt or fish. Now they're unwelcome here.

I've heard motorcycle riders can have attitudes. I can picture how that happens.

CaptCrash said:

You came upon a bridge with another vehicle STOPPED at the other side. You slowed. The vehicle displayed flashing blue and red lights. You continued. The officer in the vehicle pulled forward to block your path. You changed path to go around him. He yelled at you to "STOP NOW" and you panicked and crashed.

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When things don't fit your agenda you just put things in people's mouths. Stop doing that.

The officer steered into the oncoming lane on the bridge and stopped. He waited until I was close before giving a couple of flashs and a moment later he used the weight of his authority to stop me in a place he knew was unsafe. When I was down he did nothing but taunt me. When I finally got up he challenged fundamental property rights, and even second amendment rights. He can challenge my riding skills but not my common sense. He and his fellows no longer have the support or respect of this landowner.

I got on the bike for 30 minutes and got off. I'm still healing. An interesting thing about the bike is I don't like to ride unless I'm feeling alert and rested.

***I would suggest that if this is on your property or adjacent to yours it sure sounds like this CO was looking SPECIFICALLY for YOU. (You hint that rather than stop you he could have phoned you--which leads me to believe he, again, was looking for YOU.) You might want to ask yourself WHY is a guy with a gun and a badge looking for me AND is that the way you want to run your life?

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Conservation Officers enforce fish and game laws for the purpose of protecting an economic asset that benefits the State economy. Tourism and outdoor sports are important in Michigan. The department they work for promotes the activities he regulates and they have always been prone to trample on property rights shamelessly. This land and my enjoyment of it is dear to me. The CO doesn't intimidate me but when he recklessly endangers my life the stakes get higher.

The bike is ridable, it's just the rear fender is bent a few inches offcenter.

beginner said:

When things don't fit your agenda you just put things in people's mouths. Stop doing that.

The officer steered into the oncoming lane on the bridge and stopped. He waited until I was close before giving a couple of flashs and a moment later he used the weight of his authority to stop me in a place he knew was unsafe...

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Wait, you're telling me you were both on the bridge, he swerved into your lane and you continued riding toward him? He then flashed his lights and you CONTINUED toward him? even on my squidliest day I would have realized 'this guy wants me to STOP'--trying to go around him will probably make him think I'm pulling a runner...then he yells STOP and 400 HOURS of figure 8s doesn't pay off

Of course a properly applied SEE strategy (vehicle moves to block lane--STOP) would have saved you from all this pain.

Another training hint is this: No matter who's at fault, the person on the bike will always be hurt worse, you're vulnerable and exposed. In this situation stopping ON the bridge to the right would have clearly been the safest action. You hadn't learned one of the most important lessons of training: when a car and motorcycle come into conflict--the biker always gets hurt worse. He stopped, flashed his lights and you DIDN'T want to stop. It cost YOU. You got hurt. You have to buy parts. YOU have to live with the shame of knowing that if you bring this to law enforcement they will simply laugh that when presented with emergency lights and a truck that clearly wanted to stop--you failed to yield.

CaptCrash said:

Wait, you're telling me you were both on the bridge, he swerved into your lane and you continued riding toward him? He then flashed his lights and you CONTINUED toward him? even on my squidliest day I would have realized 'this guy wants me to STOP'--trying to go around him will probably make him think I'm pulling a runner...then he yells STOP and 400 HOURS of figure 8s doesn't pay off

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He waited until I was on top of him before flashing his lights. When I was 15 years old in driver training I remember being taught, when a policeman wants you to stop do that by proceeding to the first available SAFE place. There is a list of reasons to not stop on a bridge. The gravel along the edges is just one of them. I was intending to stop on the other side of the bridge--the safe place. He moved onto the bridge and steered into the oncoming lane and bided his time for the purpose of stopping me in the gravel. He was very amused by his cleverness.

He stopped, flashed his lights and you DIDN'T want to stop. It cost YOU.

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But I DID stop and that's why the bike went down. The side of that bridge is a perfect sheet of dust and gravel. It has never seen a street sweeper in all it's days.

The police are just as wacky as the people they claim to be protecting us from. They are absolutely necessary to civilization but "trusting" them is naive.